Over-revving the FW 190 D9 1945
 

I cooked and wrecked my engine while diving a 190-D9 1945 beyond 700km/h. I thought the auto prop-pitch should have prevented this. Is this a bug or a feature?

Thanks,

Woke Up Dead

Not sure whats modeled for IL2 1946 I would imagine its simplified and could be that its a Kommadogeraet/Bediengerät

The Jumo213A is not managed by the ATA setting.
the "Bediengerät" manages the engine settings, dependent on RPM, regardless of ATA , dependent on altitude airspeed etc.

Here's a Kommadogeraet overview image.

http://www.focke-wulf190.com/images/...andogeraet.jpg

As for the diving problem ..................... you would have thought it was safe to reach those speeds.

The engine should not seize with the automatic control. It will prevent overreving.

Now, you did that at full throttle, or you took it at minimum?

If you overreved it with the throttle at minimum, something may be wrong.

In my experience I've only overreved when I was at maximum throttle in a high speed dive. If you throttle back it won't happen.

Mind you that stops my old favourite power dive at 110% MW50 engaged diving episodes that netted me several La-7s dead back in the early days of IL-2 Forgotten Battles. The La-7 used to be uber but it could never dive with a FW190D-9 running full out :D

That's the problem though, and that's how I burned the engine, running from a La-7. Sometimes you have to dive full out. Switching to manual pitch and setting to near 0 helps.

Hmmm, and since AI uses the engine very carefully, this explains why it is so easy to shoot down even a diving D9 in a La-7.

La-7 should not be able to get anywhere near a FW D-9

Especially in a dive............

http://www.desertstar.co.uk/warbirds...formLa5La7.pdf

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.o...190d9test.html


For 11 years the La's have been "hotly debated" creatures.

http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php...Oleg!!!-Forums

This was online. He couldn't follow me and I did manage to get away, but my engine died a few seconds later. So yes, the La-7 can't dive as fast as the D-9, but unless the D-9 pilot is super careful about his engine management then he will cook his engine while doing so.

This seems like a bug to me, it's almost like the pitch control system doesn't know to reduce pitch at very high speeds. I'll submit in the team DT thread.

AI or human?

No I don't think it should either. If given time to accelerate it should be fine... even under the current conditions. Even before the max VNE, the La-7 begins to shed controls. The FW190D-9 can keep going... it's just the engine you need to worry about right now.

[QUOTE=IceFire;707711]AI or human?

Human La-7 vs AI 190D-9. AI maybe a little bit too careful with the engine. A human would still outdive the LA-7. It just needs a little abuse of the engine, just enough not to damage it. AI cant do that.

Of course, in reality it was easier to do it, La-7 wasnt that good even at medium altitudes.

How lucky we are to have actual WWII vets here to tell us how it was back in the day!

Anyway I just dove the 45' D9 from 5000 meters at full throttle with MW50 on and hit 870km/hr. I leveled out above the ground and held a speed above 800km/hr for quite a distance. Once it slowed down to 800km/hr I pulled back on the stick as hard as I could to see what would happened and that did not present any problems either except for a bit of a blackout. The plane made a few noises but no parts actually came off.

Now of course I fly only the official version of IL2, so I can not comment on how any of the various hacks/mods various people and their wet dreams have dumped onto the community......

I've done it a couple of times and then not again for ages... How many times did you try? I also only fly stock.

BTW: You've attributed that quote to me which is incorrect.

I thought of why you guys are blowing up the engines on your German aircraft.

The answer is in one of the old readme files that came with one of the old patches.

I tested my theory again, diving the 45' d9 to 870, 880 and 890km/hr from 5k and then leveling out above the ground. If I get bored tomorrow I will shoot for 900 and above and see if the airframe holds together.

Of course I have all the old patches and readme files saved, lets see who can dig through theirs and find the answer first.
This is just off the top of my head now, an old IL2 Luftwaffe Ace, but if I get time I will take a look and note the specific readme that talks about this......

Happy hunting!

I only fly the stock version too. Did you spawn at 5000m in quick mission or did you climb first to get your engine to normal temperature?

I can consistently fry my D9 1945 engine with this procedure:
- pick a summer map in QMB
- start at sea level, set radiator to automatic, turn on MW50
- climb to 5000m keeping the engine just under overheat temperature
- push throttle to 110% and dive steeply to reach 850km/h as soon as possible
- lessen dive angle a bit at 850km/h to avoid disintegrating, but try to keep it between 850 and 880 until you're on deck
- level out and run as fast as you can as low as you can as long as you can

I will get the overheat message right around the time I hit sea level, sometimes a bit later sometimes a bit sooner. Just seconds after that I will hear the engine make worrisome noises, and seconds after that it will die.

I find I can delay the fried engine if I set the radiator to "open" rather than "automatic." However, no matter the radiator setting I can't replicate this problem in the D9 1944, which does not have the MW50 but another boost system, or the 109 K-4 C3, which has the MW50 but another engine, or the Ta-152 H-1, which has the MW50 and I believe the same engine as the D9 1945.

Wow, imagine that aircraft with two different engines or airframes would perform differently under the same conditions, amazing!

If that feature of IL2 is too "amazing" for someone to handle, then luckily they can choose less realistic settings.

I will maintain that there is a simple operational procedure that was outlined years ago in one of the readme files that explains the phenomena in question.

If someone is used to their aircraft and knows how to operate it then they will not ruin the engine, unless it has a random mechanical problem as is part of IL2 Realistic settings. If they are not used to the craft they are flying and have not read all the materials released with each aircraft and each feature that has been explained in the Readme notes, the manuals etc. with each edition and patch release then they will of course have problems.

I will do some peoples homework for them, but not everyone's, I simply don't have the time. The best gift you can give is to teach someone to fish for themselves.

Maybe someday I will get into a duel with someone online and I will win because I don't blow up my engine and can get more out of it, I earned that and it is mine to give away as well as it is yours to earn or give away as you see fit.

Happy fishing.

I like you Jumo, you're evenly balanced with a chip on each shoulder. I also admire your ongoing quest to use your hard-gotten knowledge to one day win an online duel.

If someone else would like to use this thread in this forum to exchange ideas, theories, or simply point out what I'm doing wrong if this over-revving is not a bug, then I'm all ears.

But you do make use of manual prop pitch, correct? If you dont, i think you should.
You keep the MW50 turned on the entire trip?

Might be a silly note but you're engaging MW50 at low RPM yes? Otherwise you will surely destroy the engine one way or the other.

So... spawn at low alt, low rev, engage MW50, throttle to 110%, climb to 5000 meters, then dive back to sea level and try and make 870+kph without destroying the engine? Missed anything? Rads to auto?

Might want to give this a few tries again and see what my results are now.

No I don't use manual pitch, and I guess I probably should. It's just one of those situations where if I have a capable pilot in an La-7 behind me I'd like to fiddle with the controls as little as possible. It's nice that the German planes have all those automatic features, not having to worry about pitch or radiator settings in combat helps to make up for them being less maneuverable than a lot of opponents. And yes, I keep the MW50 turned on throughout the dive.

Also, it just seems odd that this would be a problem for this specific plane only, none of the other similar late-war German planes will wreck their engine in this manner, they'll just get an overheat message at the worst. I don't think any of the fast late-war US, USSR, or UK planes can wreck their engine in a single dive either. That's why I'm wondering if this is a bug or a feature.

That's right, I know about not engaging MW50 at high rpm.

Spawn at low alt, low rev, engage MW50, throttle to 110% but you'll have to reduce it later to climb to 5000 meters without overheating. Dive back to sea level, see how long you can hold it over 850 or even over 750km/h without destroying the engine. Rads to auto.

Manual pitch and rads to open will probably solve the problem, but you'd think the automatic features should know how to protect the engine, they do in all earlier German planes.

Just one thing... why are you keeping engine on max power after final speed is achieved?

I'am very confused with that. There is no point on throwing energy away, you will actually be charging the system, instead of increasing speed.

The big problem with any propeller is it's final speed. You could still accelerate, because your frame is damn good, but the propeller is a huge hindrance at high speeds. Also, keeping the throttle at full power at 900Km/h seems preposterous!

If you keep your engine at max power until the end of a dive, I will tell you that if there is a bug, it is with the planes that won't overheat, and they all should get engine damage. Check the RPM's of both planes and see the difference, but I doubt you will gain nothing by keeping the throttle at max power to the end of the dive.

I'll try and do this in the next couple of days... see what my results are doing this exactly. See what we might come up with collectively.

Sorry RPS69, what do you mean by "final speed?"

I'm pushing the throttle as long as I can because the enemy behind me is likely doing the same. The engine and propeller may be very inefficient at those speeds, but I need to squeeze out every last km/h and fly faster than the La-7 can dive, and as long as the engine doesn't cook then throttle to the wall is the way to do it. Reducing prop pitch may give me more speed at those extremes, and that's where the automatic systems in the German planes work very well, except apparently in the 190-D9 1945.

Check engine RPM´s.

Compare it with the other 190D9 model.

What I mean, is that there is a point that the plane speed on a dive is beyond the engine+propeller efficiency. You are not squeezing more speed, you are reducing it. To achieve more speed, you need to feather the prop.

Also, stabilizing the plane at the end of the dive should be much more difficult with a high reved engine, than with a moderating one. High revs generates a huge gyro effect, who will increase resistance to vector change.

To report this as a bug, it will be better to check planes RPM, and the clock who shows the prop pitch. If both planes show the same behaviour here, then I would look for how much overreving you are applying, but I would expect every plane to seize it´s engine after that kind of mistreatment.

If you are trying to find a bug (or a non-bug, jusk like RPS69 said), thats ok.
But regarding the engine management (at lest in game), in a very steep dive just like the ones refered here, you only have to profit by using manual prop-pitch. Over-reving doesnt only mean overheating, but also means loss of power. When the manuals refer the best power RPM it means below that RPM you have less power, and above that RPM you have also less power.
Beside that (at least in real aircraft) the blades turning very fast smash the air instead of mooving the air away properly. (Someone correct if i said something wrong- Not expert.)

I remember on a spanish server, (gRiJ), once after everybody left, we stud only 3, and instead of dogfighting we went for the "airshow" manouvers, follow the lider, smokes etc. We were chasing this spanish "gRiJ Torero", we all in bf109, and after the third dive i heard my friend engine go dead! (he was just on my side) Then i asked: No manual Prop-pitch? He was on auto. He never used manual.

If you dont have one extra axis lever for prop-pitch (witch is very intuitive to use), and if you are using keys, remember that you can adjust that prop pitch value before changing it to manual.
Most times people change it straight on the 100% mark, and the engine imidiatly over-revs! If you use a key to +pitch, other to -pitch, click e.g. 8 or 9 times the -pitch key, before you pass to manual. If you have lots of speed and throttle on, press more times, than, after passing to manual, check RPM, and adjust if necessary. When you start climbing get ready to adjust again, or pass to auto prop-pitch again. Here you must anticipate, or you will lose precious RPM. The value of manual pitch will stay exacly where you left it when you passed to auto.

I know most people sure knows this, but hope someone will learn from here. Thank you people.

WOW, i just tried now on the FW190 D9, 1944, Airstart from 5000 meters. It is a huge diference, from manual to auto. On manual it only slightly over-revs, and you get a LOT more speed. With auto it seems just like you have flaps on, LOL, and the RPM gauge goes like 3500 plus. (this causes overheat)

I gave 910km/h on manual and was able to pull ok. Just set prop-pitch to 0% before you dive. Dont forget to trim nose heavy. Throttle back before crash.

This D9 does not have prop-pitch indicator gauge?

That definitely makes sense and it's what I do when I'm in planes without auto prop-pitch, I assumed the automatic mechanisms in the German planes would do this more efficiently for me.

In a previous post you were wondering why I keep the engine at maximum power and you seemed to imply that reducing power would somehow generate more speed, I'm guessing you meant prop-pitch, not power?

This makes sense too, and thanks for the advice about pre-setting the pitch before switching to manual.

I still don't get why the D9 1945's engine can be so easily wrecked while the D9 1944 or the Ta 152 H will only overheat in a steep dive. If that's the way it was and it's an accurate feature then great, it's more interesting and we can take steps to avoid the problem. Otherwise it might be a bug. I'll try comparing the rpm in a dive in a D9 44 and a D9 45 later today.

I mean both. You should achieve the same speed, without the need to overheat the engine. Engine power should be maxed when starting the dive, but after some point, plane dependent, power should be diminished to around 30%, and pitch to a minimum.

Hmm, I don't think I can agree with reducing power to go faster, that seems very illogical. Reducing pitch when you exceed the planes maximum level speed at a given velocity, sure, but power?

If the governor is doing his job, and the propeller is feathered at the end of the dive, there is no point on keeping the throttle maxed.
Also, maybe not on the sim, but it is an established procedure to recover from a dive.

Unless you are doing a kamikaze atack, you need to stop accelerating, and need also to reduce the speed, or you will not be able to pull up free of damage.
One other thing, dont know if it is implemented on the SIM: On a dive, if you nont need much speed, you still must have at least some 30% of throttle in order to avoid overheating. The objective is to have some fuel burning, and lubricating the sistem. That can happen in a carr to. If someone is only windmilling the prop, high revs, may cause damage. Need fuel on.

If the engine was a 2Stroke(where fuel acts as lubrication), maybe.
On a 4 Stroke you can cool the engine by enriching the mixture, the oil pump on the other hand is usually driven by the crankshaft hence still works at high rpm, independent whether the tb is wot or closed.

That is, at least, my understanding - please feel free to go into further detail.

I read in some manual about engines: But not 100%sure. I will try to find it out so we can discuss the subject. maybe in a few days when i have time.

But in the spitfire manual it says that dives must have some 30% throttle, i have copy from a game i bought for MS Flight Simulator 9.

The injections and carburetors for internal combustion engines have idle circuits, so even when the throttle is turned all the way off the engines will "idle". This puts in the correct amount of fuel for idling, just as the correct amount of fuel-to-air is put in at every rpm and throttle load.

You guys are starting to talk about stuff you know nothing about, which is the norm for internet forums.

Woke screws up and gets an La7 on his butt flying solo, then blows his engine trying to run away, both novice moves, but of course it isn't his fault, it is his aircraft's fault, another novice assumption.

Aces don't ask questions, they either know the answers or they are able to figure them out on their own.

I'm sure that makes everyone feel real good...

Moving right along. I tried the test one time and so far no engine blow out. Might be a random component to this?

I'm getting it pretty consistently in QMB on the Pacific Islands map. I use time acceleration to make the climb faster.

We're getting a bit off topic here, the issue isn't diving in general; RPS69 and Bolelas have pointed out the simple fix for this which I've been using in other planes: reduce prop pitch. The issue is why the auto features in all other German planes manage to keep their engines from getting wrecked in similar power dives, including in the FW-190 1944, but they don't get it done and force the pilot to do things manually in a power-diving FW-190 1945. Nothing in the original readme or in the 4.11 readme that's specific to the FW-190 1945 overheating differently, just general new overheating advice for 4.11.

You don't know what you are talking about.

The 45' D9 with MW50 injection runs cooler and is more reliable than the 44' D9.

If you run on a hot map you can get any aircraft to overheat and blow up, I did it more than once with a 109g2 just yesterday.

Different aircraft are different machines and they will all need different techniques to fly.

Standing around scratching your head and wondering why two different aircraft work differently is about the level chicken-little works with.

You started the thread complaining about how you blew your engine running from an La-7 online, then when no experienced pilots were blowing engines you make up a QMB test for the aircraft. You keep changing your story and your methods to keep the thread going and keep yourself the center of the circus. And it is all a farce anyway because you are not even able to report accurate information.

If DT wastes their time whenever a dilettante like yourself can't figure out how to tie your shoes then the next patch will not come out until 2020.

Here's a recording of what it looks like, for those still interested. Recording does not capture me turning on the MW50 for some reason, but I do it right at the beginning after I throttle down.

You seem to know the answer to WokeUpDeads problem - so if you would care to enlighten us, we could all learn.

Thanks majorproblem, it's not a matter of solving a problem anymore, the solution is simply to reduce pitch manually. Now I'm just curious as to why it happens on this specific plane and not other similar ones, and is it supposed to happen on this is specific plane but not similar ones.

Well, after you poted the track, I checked that version and the 1944.

I will tell you that both suffer the same problem, with just a little difference in time, because the 1945 go higher UI than the 1944 at the same speeds...

That in itself is plain wrong.

Also, I may tell you that MW50 is not doing it's job, and it's consumption needle it is not working, same as the vertical trim indicator.
Part of the job of the MW50 is cooling the engine. And that's not happening here even if you keep RPM's at 3000.

But that's an old bug that nobody will address. MW50 have got a very bad press.

BTW... don't overheat your engine when you are climbing, keep it at 90% as marked on the other 190 throttle where it says Steigen. It means climbing throttle position. Also try to climb at the speed where the ball is centered. You climb faster doing that. If you don't need to climb that fast, unless you fear becoming bored, also don't use MW50 while climbing and keep your engine safe. I did that, and it took me a little more while to seize the engine.
But it seized anyway.

Cooling the charge is NOT equivalent to cooling the engine!
MW50 achieves more compression by not letting the fuel/air mixture detonate prematurely due to heating up under pressure.

Read the technical part of the thread Alpha posted unto me.

It actually cools cylinders heads, not only the charge.
It is more a problem of high pressure than overheat alone.

People happen to forget that german pilots used MW50 to climb away from the likes of Yaks, Las and Spits. They were not forced to dive away from them when at high altitude. P47 and late war american planes were anoter thing.

Thanks RPS69, what do you mean by "the 1945 go higher UI than the 1944 at the same speeds?"

Yeah, I wasn't climbing too carefully, I had time acceleration set to 8x. Interesting about the "Steigen" climbing speed.

Sorry if I join here with a 'noobish' question, because I don´t fly these birds too often.
I tried to find out in the manuals, but could not find an answer. I remember that somebody in the thread linked above, once mentioned something like: "I turn on MW50 before engine start and then don´t touch it again." I also remember to have read that it should be turned on before you start the engine, because it only kicks in when you go full throttle. (which would make its use impossible for airstart missions). As far as I understand you talk here about turning MW50 on during flight. What´s the correct way?
And how can you override the Kommandogerät with manual prop pitch? If I try to do this in German planes just nothing happens.

Best,

DerDa

It's the manifold pressure indicator. Check your own video, and do the same maneuver with the 1944. You reach the same speeds, which is ok, but with different UI vlues 1944 is lower.

From your initial post, I may tell you that both planes auto pitch management performs baddly. Use the manual pitch, as a workaround solution, and give thanks that it exists.

BTW... try to dive without putting thr throttle maxed after you reached 600Km/h. you will be surprised.

It's OK to turn on MW50 when the engine is on already, but it has to be at low throttle and low RPM. I'm not sure how low exactly, but you will be OK if you reduce throttle to 0%, wait two or three seconds for the RPM to drop, then turn on MW50 and increase throttle.

There is a key for turning the automatic pitch control off and on in the game's Control section, it also works for turning off auto-pitch in late-war Spitfires. Read Bolelas's posts above about tapping they keys to reduce prop pitch even before you turn Kommandogerät off, otherwise pitch will be at 100% when you first set it to manual.

Thanks a lot, Woke Up Dead!
I´ll give it a try as soon as I find time.