Fixing Starting Daert / Bagyr
 

Okay, I've been doing a lot of play testing here and there with both Daert and Bagyr.

For Daert, it is possible to do no loss through Whitehill with just two Vampires if you get lucky and receive 1 of about 5 different spell choices from the Ore Cart in Dragandor.

I've also been doing some playtesting with Bagyr's starting forces and due to the fact that you don't get any spells except Haste / Slow and you get a single Veteran Orc with Goblins, Furious Goblins, 2 Orcs, and 5 Hyenas he has no chance to do any of the Catacombs fights.

You pretty much have to run Bagyr to the Shelter as quickly as possible and then you hire the Shelter troops to complete the fights with losses. For both you can use the Spider / Snake Eggs to create a large uncontrollable stack that can handle the various stacks, but these are with losses.

So I'm for improving the starting situation of Daert and Bagyr so that they are much more fun to play like Neoline and that you can actually do no loss at impossible difficulty through Whitehill without having to restart, scan your save game, and determine if you've got a chance.

I've performed the most testing with Daert and here is what I think is a fun starting situation where you can actually have some decent spell selection and play one of the new units in the game (1 point for each spell level and 12 total points):

• Spells:
  • Stone Skin: 1
  • Poison Skull: 1
  • Weakness: 3
  • Total = 5
• Scrolls:
  • Kamikaze: 3
  • Evil Book: 3
  • Frost Grasp: 1
  • Total = 7
• Total Points = 12

Daert's Army is then:

• Starting:
  • 1 Necromancer
  • 1 Black Knight
  • 1 Cursed Ghost
• In DragDark:
  • 2 Cursed Ghosts
  • 2 Female Vampires

I'm experimenting with this right now (before I had 5 regular Vampires) and I think it is neat to actually play with the Female Vampires at the start of the game (just like Neoline gets some Elementals and Blood Priestesses) so that you get to play some new units right away. Plus, I figured Daert is a handsome fella and could have been entertaining a couple of lady Vampire friends when the situation at the start of the game went down.

The spell selection is really good, too, as you can use the Frost Grasp on the Snakes and Spiders to great effect and you still have Poison Skull to use on the Dwarves, Humans, and Elves. You also get to cast Evil Book and Kamikaze is great to cast on a raised unit. So far I was able to do all the Spider stacks except the big one in the Catacombs. I'm 1 Magic Rune short from getting Chaos Level 2 as I just made Daert Level 4 (I probably could have held off on going with Meditation so if you don't go with that skill then it is possible to get Chaos to Level 2 if the Might Runes fall for you). I'm looking forward to continuing this playtest through Whitehill to see how well it works, but I was able to do the above with 5 Vampires instead of 2 Female Vampires through Whitehill no loss.

I also made one other change and this is to add variability to the Zombie shop where they can sell either Archers or Skeletons and Zombies or Cursed Zombies.

As far as Bagyr is concerned, his starting army is absolutely pitiful and his spell selection only of limited help. So, sticking with the same point system (and same number of starting points, 5) I think a better spell selection for Bagyr is:

• Spells:
  • Precision: 1
  • Blur: 1
  • Total = 2
• Scrolls:
  • Whirlwind: 1
  • Trap: 2
  • Total = 3
• Total Points = 5

Since Bagyr only has his starting army to rely on, he needs to be able to take a group of troops through to the Shelter and beyond and continue with no loss. This is very tricky and so I think the only way for him to be able to handle more difficult enemies is to allow him to increase army stacks via his reserve and have a troop that can summon units. So the plan here is to have enough troops available so that he can pump 2 stacks as he levels.

So here is his starting army and available units from Tristrem:

• Starting:
  • 10 Goblins
  • 2 Orcs
  • 1 Orc Scout (can summon 5 Wolves)
• In Tristrem
  • 6 to 8 Furious Goblins (no change)
  • 1 to 2 Veteran Orcs (used to be just 1)
  • 4 to 6 Goblin Riders (changed from Goblins)
  • 1 to 2 Catapults (changed from Hyenas)
  • 1 to 2 Shamans (changed from Furious Goblins)

I next changed the Troll shop to sell better Orc troops and some spells, it now sells:

• Items:
  • 1 Level 1 Viking Item
• Troops:
  • 6 Goblin Riders, 5 Orcs, or 2 Catapults
  • 2 Veteran Orcs, 1 Shaman, or 1 Orc Scout
• Spells:
  • Stone Skin
  • Berserker
  • Animal Call
  • Random Level 1 Spell

It still sells the 2 Level 1 Orc Items (helm and armor) and the 2 Level 5 Troops.

This gives some variability to Bagyr's start, but the idea is that you can use the Furious Goblin ability to find an extra 1,000 to 2,000 gold or so from the 3 fights and then you'll end up disbanding the starting Goblins (perhaps they should be swapped out with another unit) and then you can disband the Furious Goblins when you are getting ready to buy troops from the Troll shop.

The Orc units are just not very good in low numbers, unlike the Demon and Undead troops so you need a troop that can summon units. The only troop that can summon units is the Orc Scout. I never even saw one in my Demoness playthrough with Neoline and so I think this is a great way to introduce a new unit since you start with 1. There is a possibility of getting another one from the Troll shop, but it is not guaranteed.

You can run around and pick up the other troops if you'd like, or just go with this group and you can take all the armies with just this group. Use your Furious Goblins to check bodies for money and hopefully you collect somewhere between 1,000 to 2,000 gold from your endeavors to give you money to buy stuff from the Troll shop.

After getting rid of the Goblins and Furious Goblins, you should have (one or more troops will be in reserve):

• 4 to 6 Goblin Riders
• 2 Orcs
• 1 to 2 Catapults
• 1 to 2 Veteran Orcs
• 1 Shaman
• 1 Orc Scout

This starts you with 2 of the new Orc units (just like Neoline) and I think it would be great for new players of the game to play some of the new units right away.

You then will either get more Goblin Riders, Orcs, or Catapults and Veteran Orcs, Shamans, or Orc Scouts with some additional spell scrolls and artifacts. Based on who you can purchase will determine which troops you place in reserve.

In my current playtest, I have 1 Orc Scout (+1 in reserve), 2 Orcs, 1 Catapult, 2 Veteran Orcs, 1 Shaman, and 11 Goblin Riders in reserve. I also had enough money to buy the Stone Skin and Berserker spells, but that used up all my money.

I was able to do the first easy Catacombs stack and so I'm hoping to be able to do all 3 at least. We'll see if I can take on the harder Spider stack in the Catacombs or I'd at least want to try to take out the stack before the Dragandor gate since it usually has troops divided into smaller stacks (usually 7 stacks instead of 5).

When Bagyr gets to level 4, he should have enough Leadership to have 2 Orc Scouts (with the ability to summon up to 10 Wolves) and then I'll probably put the 2 Orcs in reserve and go with max Goblin Riders. I also have the option of splitting the Orc Scouts and keeping the Goblin Riders and the Orcs in reserve as this might be a better strategy.

I'm still evaluating both the changes to Daert's and Bagyr's starting scenario and if there is interest maybe I'll post these changes once they get dialed in.

I need to get a feel for Bagyr's Leadership increase to see if there should be more troops offered from the Troll shop if you can afford them. I'm also thinking of switching Blur to a Scroll and have him start with Whirlwind as a Spell so that you can use that with Trap (Level 1 Diversion should be attainable by level 4 or 5 max) and cause some small damage to units as well, but it costs 5 Mana, which is expensive for the start (although I think you may have enough Magic Runes for 1 point in Meditation to get you up to 16 Mana when you reach level 4). Bagyr does not get enough Magic Runes, it seems, to be able to get any of the spell schools until probably around level 7 or 8 as a guess (too high of a level to be able to learn any new spells before completing the first Whitehill fight). Also, if the Goblins are just going to be disbanded at the start I'll probably end up changing them to a different troop.

So the point to all this is to make the game more fun for playing Daert or Bagyr and to give them the possibility of no loss on impossible difficulty through Whitehill with a significant percentage of their starting scenarios. Neoline can pretty much do no loss on impossible with her current starting scenario. Daert only has a very small chance of being able to do no loss with his current starting scenario through Whitehill and Bagyr actually seems to have no possibility of doing no loss through Whitehill.

Chime in if you have any thoughts or ideas on improving Daert's or Bagyr's starting scenario.:D

By the way, the mod is now available:

• V0.1 here!
• V0.2 here!

/C\/C\

Couldn't do no loss with the above setup...
 

Well, as it turns out I couldn't do no loss with the above setup.

There are two few Orc troops and too many of the Elf / Human troops in the Shelter. I was actually able to do every single fight (including the big Spider stack in the Catacombs) no loss until I got to the Elven / Human stacks in the Shelter.

I had gotten Diversion level 2, even, but 2 Traps are not enough.

So I realized that there is really only one way to do this fight with Bagyr and that is to give him the Trap spell so that he can work on his Trap medal and get it to Level 1. Then he'll have at least 3 traps when fighting the Elves / Humans and with the ability to cast more he can then cause enough damage to win with the troops that I changed above.

So I put this to practice and started a new game. I had changed Bagyr's starting spells from above to be such that he starts with Trap as a spell and all his other spells are scrolls. I also swapped the Goblins out for a single Catapult and increased the starting Furious Goblins that you can get from 8 to 10 to 12 to 16 so that I could see if he could get more money with more numbers. As it turns out, I don't think it makes a difference.

I also added the Clay Bowl to the Troll Shop and I also got the Warm Mittens as the random Level 1 Viking item. With these two items, Bagyr was +10 Mana.

There are two things that you can do in Tristrem at the start, and that is: 1) work on your Trap medal and 2) farm bodies for money with your Furious Goblins. You can also take advantage of a Dryad and use your Furious Goblins to keep killing her summoned Thorns. I was able to get about 6,000 gold in one fight this way (and I actually had quite a few low gold acquisitions, like 80 or 90 gold for a body). You can actually do this in the game without any changes, but the problem is that there is really nothing to buy in the shop with that money.

At any rate, I didn't do so hot on my trapping in Tristrem, but I got it to 4 kills (I was hoping to get to 6), but I had over 10,000 gold from the money from the bodies, quests, etc.

In the Catacombs, I was much better and got Trapper Level 1 medal. This is similar, to Neoline's playthrough in that you need to get Trapper at least to Level 1 and you should be able to get Diversion Level 3. With Bagyr and the changes I made, it is possible to get Trapper Level 1 and Diversion Level 1 at least (and hopefully Level 2) by the time you get to Level 5. It depends on how the Spirit Runes fall, but in both games I got Diversion Level 2 when Bagyr was Level 5.

So this time, I had purchased 5 Orcs (for a total of 7) / 1 Orc Scout (for a total of 2) from the Troll shop and I had 2 Catapults, 2 Veteran Orcs, 4 Spirit Talkers, and 1 Shaman as well. I ended up putting the Orcs and 1 Orc Scout in reserve until I faced the Elves / Humans in the Shelter. I then switched the Spirit Talkers to reserve and I had enough Leadership (you need almost 400) to command 2 Orc Scouts.

My winning army through Whitehill was 2 Catapults, 7 Orcs, 2 Veteran Orcs, 2 Orc Scouts, and 1 Shaman. I actually had enough Magic Runes by Level 6 to put 1 point in Bibliophile and 1 point in Distortion if I wanted to, but decided to save the runes until I get to Portland. As an alternate, I also could have put 1 point in Meditation and 1 point in Order. I think this gives good variability on the Magic Skill Tree.

Playing this way is fairly challenging and allows you to start with 1 new troop and acquire another in Tristrem. I think it is much more fun than the current setup for Bagyr.

As an aside, I don't think it is possible to do no loss on impossible with Bagyr with the stock game files even if you are able to get Level 1 Diversion when he reaches Level 3 because there are not enough fights with just 1 Trap to get your Trapper Medal to Level 1. That would be the only way to do Bagyr no loss as his starting units are too weak.

From this playthrough, I learned quite a bit of Bagyr's starting situation and from this I made the following changes:

• Spells:
  • Trap: 2
• Scrolls:
  • Call of Nature: 3
• Total Points = 5

You are only going to cast Trap because that is the only way to get your Trapper Medal up to Level 1 and it does more damage than any other spell @5 Mana a cast. Also, this spell seems well suited for an Orc since I can see them using this. I think giving him Animal Call works for well for beyond Whitehill as he won't be able to learn any spells until he reaches Level 6, which is essentially just before Whitehill.

Bagyr's starting army is now:

• 1 Catapult
• 2 Orcs
• 1 Orc Scout

I also decided to just given him the Wooden Breastplate and Orc Warlord Helm at the start since they are pretty insignificant items and he should have some armor and a helm to go with the sword since he's a Warrior.

For the Troll Shop, since I gave Bagyr the 2 Orc items, I removed them and I added Trap and the Clay Bowl as items you can purchase. Trap is 10,000 gold, and so you'll only be able to get it if you face a Dryad in one of the 3 Elven stacks in Tristrem. I think this is a neat stretch goal to see if you can farm money from a Dryad long enough to be able to purchase it. If you can, then no loss will be easier, but since you don't necessarily get the Warm Mittens, you may only have +5 Mana (although you'll probably want to put a point in Meditation to get another +6 (I didn't do this in my playthrough above, though, but with +10 Mana I didn't need it)).

So here is what you can get from the Troll Shop now:

• Items:
  • Neutral Level 1 item
  • Viking Level 1 item
  • Clay Bowl
  • Trap
• Scrolls:
  • Stone Skin: 1 to 2
  • Berserker: 1 to 2
  • 2 random level 1 scrolls: 1 to 2 each
• Units:
  • 2 Jotuns (no change)
  • 1 Troll (no change)
  • Either: 6 Spirit Talkers, 3 Catapults, or 5 Orcs
  • Either: 3 Veteran Orcs, 2 Shamans, or 1 Orc Scout

Lastly here are the units you acquire on the map (all have changed):

• 12 to 16 Furious Goblins
• 1 to 2 Veteran Orcs
• 4 to 6 Spirit Talkers (Goblin Riders)
• 1 to 3 Catapults
• 1 to 2 Shamans

This gives enough variability to be able to have a slightly different army makeup through to the Shelter and Whitehill from start to start.

Also, you use all the units, not a single one is useless (although it makes sense to disband the Furious Goblins to make room for the other troops once you're done farming money with them in Tristrem).

The big thing here, is that you have enough variety and power to your starting troops so that you can actually do all the fights through Whitehill no loss impossible. It should be quite challenging, but not as frustrating as the current start for Bagyr.

If anyone is interested in playing this setup, let me know and I'll bundle the files into an ultra-tiny mod so that you can try it! :)

/C\/C\

I really like the lineup you set up for Bagyr, same with Daert. It makes complete sense to play to both heroes' strengths, and I absolutely don't get how the devs put them at a such huge disadvantage. Keeping in mind what I have been reading in the forums pre-launch (like Daert having Necromancers too), it seems like those were last-second decisions. I wonder why, really.

I sure hope the devs are reading up on your tests and will adapt accordingly. Otherwise we can do it ourselves :P

I cracked open the ses.kfs file too. I wanted to adjust the starting game as well. Made a thread about it but apparantly I can't post yet for some reason.

Do you know where the wife/slave, pet/spirit, and older troop files are? The only ATOM files I've found are the new units, I can't find imps, demonesses, vampires or anything except the new stuff.

They are in data.kfs.

/C\/C\

Daert changes work for no loss, too!
 

Okay, by the way, I finished my Daert start through Whitehill no loss with the changes made above. The only fight I couldn't do was the big Spider stack in the Catacombs. I think you need Evil Book Level 2, but I was 1 Magic Rune short @level 4. So on I went and I was able to do all the other fights no loss through the first Whitehill stack. Since you can return here anyway, I don't think it is a big deal if you skip that stack.

It is more challenging than with 5 Vampires (obviously, I guess), but still fairly doable with skill.

It was fun to play the Female Vampires (I had not even really used them in my Neoline playthrough, although I had purchased a few from the Vampire Lady in Monteville).

Even though they have higher leadership, they are actually not as good as regular Vampires in small numbers because you can't use their Call ability because there are too few of them and the enemy has too many units. Also their Long Attack is really not very useful either and they can't increase their numbers if you lose one. The transformation into a cloud ability is useful, especially for getting an Evil Book close to the enemy.

Nonetheless, it is fun to play them this way and it is also neat to use the Cursed Ghost's Ghost Cry ability and their Life Steal is just enough to be useful even if they have low numbers. One thing weird, though, is that if you lose one, I haven't been able to get them to increase their numbers (something seems bugged here as I thought it used to work).

Anyway, I might do some minor tweaking to Daert / Bagyr, but for the most part, I think these are winning combinations. If the devs frequent the forums, I certainly hope they use this to patch the game such that both of these classes have a chance for no loss through Whitehill just like Neoline on impossible difficulty.

If there is no change, then like @DGDobrev said I'll package the files up and post them here.

/C\/C\

Maybe they decided to remove the numbers increase for the Ghosts, as it was too easy to overgrow a stack and lose control. Might just be a new change specifically for KBDS, as we are expected to play those units. This is both good and bad at any rate.

Technically, it could be fixed by adding the option to grow till leadership cap, or starting battle numbers like the vampires.

Deart and Bagyr Have a Chance Mod Now Available!
 

Daert and Bagyr No Loss Impossible - Giving Them a Chance Mod

This mod is only for use with King's Bounty - Darkside.

Tired of scanning saves for the right spell combination to do Daert no loss?
Tired of having Bagyr using uncontrollable stacks of spiders and snakes just to survive?
Tired of the fact that Neoline has a chance at no loss impossible with any start, but Bagyr and Daert don't?

Now you can actually play impossible no loss with either Bagyr or Daert, while still being challenged and at least trying all the fights from the start through Whitehill! You also get to start with new troops so that you can get a flavor of them right from the beginning of the game and Bagyr can play like a Warrior and Daert like a Mage and you'll be having fun instead of getting frustrated!

This is a very small mod that implements changes to balance out Bagyr and Daert so that they have a chance at no loss just like Neoline on impossible difficulty level.

Installation Instructions (note that my base Darkside folder is located here: C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\steamapps\common\Darkside\):

1. Extract the "mods" folder in this archive to: sessions\darkside\locations\ under you base Darskide folder (see above for an example of where it is located on my system) so that you have the following files:
   1. sessions\darkside\locations\mods\m_tristrem_start. embryos.loc
   2. sessions\darkside\locations\mods\m_vampire_start.e mbryos.loc
   3. sessions\darkside\locations\mods\hero.txt
2. Play the game! You should note that the starting scenario for Deart and Bagyr are now different, giving you new options and the chance for no loss on impossible difficulty!

Uninstallation Instructions:

1. Remove the mods folder from your sessions\darkside\locations folder (see above for where the base Darkside folder is located).
2. That's it!

Use at your own risk, but I sincerely hope you now enjoy playing as Bagyr or Daert! :)

If you have any comments or questions, please post them to this forum topic: http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=228683

Thanks, and good luck playing this mini mod!

Matt Caspermeyer

/C\/C\

This mod makes changes in the following files:

• sessions\darkside\locations\m_tristrem_start\m_tri strem_start.embryos.loc
• sessions\darkside\locations\m_vampire_start\m_vamp ire_start.embryos.loc
• sessions\darkside\ses.kfs\hero.txt

Here are the changes:

V0.1 - 2014-09-13

• m_tristrem_start.embryos.loc
  • Troops that will join Bagyr:
    • 12 to 16 Furious Goblins
    • 1 to 2 Veteran Orcs
    • 4 to 6 Spirit Talkers
    • 1 to 3 Catapults
    • 1 to 2 Shamans
  • Troll Shop:
    • Items:
      • 1 Neutral level 1 item
      • 1 Viking level 1 item
      • 1 Clay Bowl
      • 1 Trap
    • Scrolls:
      • 1 to 2 Stone Skin
      • 1 to 2 Berserker
      • 1 to 2 random level 1 scrolls of 1 to 2 each
    • Units:
      • Either: 6 Spirit Talkers, 3 Catapults, or 5 Orcs
      • Either: 3 Veteran Orcs, 2 Shamans, or 1 Orc Scout
• m_vampire_start.embryos.loc
  • Troops that will join Daert:
    • 2 Female Vampires
    • 2 Cursed Ghosts
• hero.txt
  • Bagyr:
    • Starting Army:
      • 1 Catapult
      • 2 Orcs
      • 1 Orc Scout
    • Spells:
      • Trap
    • Scrolls:
      • 1 Animal Call
    • Items:
      • 1 Wooden Breastplate
      • 1 Orc Warlord Helm
  • Daert:
    • Starting Army:
      • 1 Necromancer
      • 1 Cursed Ghost
      • 1 Black Knight
    • Spells:
      • Poison Skull
      • Stone Skin
      • Weakness
    • Scrolls:
      • 1 Frost Grasp
      • 1 Kamikaze
      • 1 Evil Book

Download the mod here and enjoy! :)

There is a newer version available here!

excelent work as usaly from you , do you plan also repair game/bug fixes/difficulty later game increase and add some content also? pls :)

Honestly, I hadn't thought about it that much, although I have been going through in my current playthrough with Daert / Impossible with the Phoenix save game I posted and I've been fixing things / making changes as I've come across them, even though the game has only been out for a couple of months.

I certainly feel that the developers have a lot more work to do, but I've learned from WotN and I&F not to hold my breath about them fixing stuff. So we may be stuck with fixing things ourselves, as usual.

For example, the Alchemist's Set doesn't show the number of victories, so I fixed that so that it now does.

I also didn't like the fact that Female Vampires are raised as Skeleton Warriors and so I actually went through and totally changed the Necromancy ability so that female troops can be raised as Female Vampires, light troops raised as their dark variants, and I tried to make the raise list more sensical (kind of like what I did in my H3B mod).

I added Fire Elementals to Demon Portal Level 1 (an omission for sure since it says level 1-3 troops) and Executioners to Demon Portal Level 2 (they are level 4 after all, so their omission must be an error, even though I think that goes all the way back to AP).

I also added more animals to the Animal Call spell (i.e. spiders, lizard troops (pretty much all level 4 and below since they are animals), even beholders since they are animals of a sort).

Changing the above makes the game more fun simply because you get to control many more different types of troops between Necromancy, Demon Portal, and Animal Call thereby exposing you to units that you might not normally play or use.

The overpower of Animal Call is also apparent, so I'll probably tweak the power of that once I get to a point where it seems like it is too much (early, it is actually not bad so adjusting it is tricky since you'll kill its early power and utility).

So even though I hadn't really intended to mod the game at this early stage (although I did plan to bring my H3B features to it eventually), I guess you can say that I'm on my way to modding / fixing Dark Side so post your ideas / observations and I'll see what I can do...

/C\/C\

I'll have to try it out, should provide a nice challenge. :)

Now, a few observations.

Bagyr

- While it's nice to give the Orc Scout a whirl, there's a whole quest line dedicated (and a late one to boot) to designing and enabling that unit.
If it's available from the start, the game stops making sense in that regard.
Not that it really matters, but well, just sayin'. ;)
- Also regarding the "quest integrity" aspect, the troll shop should still sell trolls. Sure you can't buy them at the start, but when later on you're told that a family of trolls lives there, it rings a bell. While if there were no trolls for sale, the player might go "uh ?" instead.
Minor nitpick, I know.
- I would swap the spell distribution: Stoneskin and Berserker in the spell book, Trap and Nature Call at the shop.
The reason is that Stoneskin and Berserker are both "mainstream" for the warrior class (support spells) and in-character for an orc, while Trap and Nature Call present alternate strategical approaches. So those should be an option at the player's discretion, not an "imposed choice".
- There are two medals that require casting a few spells a lot of time, I believe one spell from each selection should be made available to the player from the start (either by picking spells from both lists, or by editing the medal spell lists to include the new spell selection).

Daert

- Same observation concerning the female vampires as for Bagyr's orc scout.
(Although that quest line is pretty silly in the game, since female vampires clearly already exist).
- On my first playthrough, I got the feeling the game was trolling me: you get Poison Skull as a damage spell... while most of the initial opponents are poison resistant!
Furthermore, Poison Skull is not really in-character for a vampire.
So I'd ditch it.
Frost Grasp would be more "vampirish", and I believe it's a spell that gets little love anyway (well, by me at least, lol). So I'd make that the spellbook spell instead of just a scroll.
- Kamikaze is an interesting tactical spell (and also one that's not getting much use I believe), and it's been proven to be enough to beat the shelter fights (although that's tough), but again, not very "vampirish". Call of Death would be more thematic (although its tactical usefulness here, especially for no loss, is doubtful).
- Same observation as for Dagyr concerning the medals.

Gave it a whirl since my "give myself some fairly ridiculous troops" option failed to result in a no loss. Couldn't quite do it since the elves still do some pretty ridiculous damage. Not sure if you tested it yourself and found some strange way to beat it. If so, I hope it isn't one of those really narrow set of options to do it.

Maybe we should try to figure out why demoness or vampire works. They actually have nuke spells or a useful tree (for the sake of the early battles). Demoness has diversions which gives her traps AND a very strong summoner unit early on. She also has a nuke so this gives her a very good chance. Vampire has nukes and a special unit that can restore all HP and it is fast enough to kite a fair set of units. Also with the right spell and proper usage of his magic skill tree, he can really turn the tide.

Orc has, at best, in the might tree has onslaught for initiative which is only useful if you could actually do meaningful damage early game. You simply don't have enough leadership to hit that minimum threshold of useful damage. Nevermind that if you go straight for onslaught, you will miss out on the more useful rage tree abilities later.

Orc magic is pretty bad since he has the lowest starting mana and no way to even have it recover mid battle. Even if you got the trap trophy after wasting tons of time, it will hardly be of much use. 2 traps per battle then the snore fest of waiting a few minutes to let your rage disappear and mana go back up.

Orc needs a LOT more units or better spells to have a good chance to start with some variety. I went in with a demon, dark paladin, orc veterans, and shaman and still failed. I'll admit though the starting orc units was a great surprise with tons of variety and potential but without a solid tank or two, it simply doesn't hold up.

Anyway, what's all this talk about using "out of control" units? Will it still count as losses? (guessing it will) also if they are the last units remaining, does combat end?

Sounds good - hope you enjoy it! :)

I tried it without them, but simply put, Bagyr needs a unit that can summon troops. The only Orc troop that can do that is the Orc Scout. I realized that you do get them later in the game as part of a special quest, but I figured giving you one or possibly two at the very beginning wouldn't hurt, although I haven't seen the text to the quest line to see if it seems very inconsistent.

Nonetheless, if you read through all my posts in this topic, you'll note that I tried it with all the other Orc Level 4 and below troops, but that wasn't enough. The only other route to go would be to give him a non-Orc summoner. Seems very unfitting to me so that's why I ended up adding the Orc Scout.

The Troll Shop does present an option to provide him with some non-Orc troops, but I wanted him to be able to do it with Orcs only since Neoline and Daert can do it with their race's troops.

Too bad Orc Hunters aren't in the game any more as they would have been a good choice instead of the Orc Scouts and not changed the flavor of the later quest.

As an aside, why aren't the new Crossworlds Orc troops in Dark Side?

No worries - this part hasn't been changed (he still sells 1 Troll at the very beginning and note that I only affected the starting Tristrem map, not the one you return to).

Tried it with the way you suggested at first (read my earlier posts) and it had very little to no impact on helping Bagyr do no loss.

Playtesting with Bagyr was very important here and unfortunately I came to the conclusion that he needs: 1) Orc Scout for summoning of Wolves and 2) Trap spell so that you can get 3 Traps with Level 2 Diversion + Level 1 Trapper Medal. I tried a lot of other spell combinations that made sense for a Warrior / Orc and they simply were not viable with only 10 to 15 Mana for no loss.

It is not possible to get a spell school (i.e. Order, etc.) @Bagyr Level 5 (I think he needs to be about level 7 or 8 before he has enough magic runes to get a spell school) so you have to give him a spell that can be cast at the beginning of the game that is actually useful to him and the only one that really helps is Trap through the Diversion / Trapper Medal route.

Due to this, it really makes no difference between whether he starts with Scrolls of Animal Call, Stone Skin, and Berserker or he buys them. I went with Stone Skin and Berserker as purchased spells since the sum of them is cheaper than one Animal Call scroll (his start scroll), thus saving him a little bit of money. Don't forget there are also 2 more level 1 scrolls that he can buy from the Troll Shop so he might also get Whirlwind, which I think is a good Orc scroll.

I don't think this one is as really any concern since you can go purchase them by going to Monteville (i.e. no quest needed to get 10, although you need a quest to get more than that). It adds to the game flavor by starting with them and you get exposed to the only new Undead troop right away.

Strangely, they are not as good as regular Vampires (at least for the early game since their numbers are too few to use their ability that disables an enemy and they can't increase their numbers if one dies).

Poison Skull has always been one of the obvious Undead level 1 spells going back to The Legend. It is the only offensive spell cast by the Undead Statue in arenas so it totally fits giving it to an Undead Mage at the start of the game, even though all the enemies are resistant to it as you mention.

Frost Grasp is the perfect starting spell for Daert due to the units in the Catacombs. Fortunately, it is easily added to his casting repertoire before even getting there since he starts with a scroll.

Poison Skull is actually just as good if not better suited for early Portland than Frost Grasp due to higher damage potential and lack of resistance of opposing troops. Since you'll be level 3 by the time you are finished with Portland, you'll then be able to learn Frost Grasp for your Catacombs run, so starting with Poison Skull and then learning Frost Grasp seems like a natural progression (although there is no denying having Frost Grasp only would work well, too).

This may be true, but we really don't know anything about Daert's background, so who knows, he could have been experimenting with explosives as a mage and it is a great way to get you to experiment with a spell that is hardly used in the game (or any King's Bounty game for that matter). Giving it to you as a scroll at the start seems like a great opportunity to allow players to experiment with this spell.

This was my exact thought process, too, but Call of Death simply costs too much Mana / is not powerful enough at the beginning of the game to really make a difference. I really, really tried to see if that spell would be of help since it seems perfect for Daert. Unfortunately, it just does not help through the Shelter fights and it is also redundant with the Necromancer's ability who can use it more effectively. If it actually resurrected troops, then that would be huge, but it doesn't.

So all-in-all, I think the changes I made to both Bagyr and Daert capitalize on their play styles and give you a flavor of all the new Orc and Undead troops at the beginning of the game, just like Neoline gets Fire Elementals and Blood Priestesses very early (the new Demon units).

The game is actually still very challenging such that you may end up skipping the big Spider stack in the Catacombs, but you at least should try that stack. I was able to do it with Neoline in my original (unmodded) Impossible playthrough and Bagyr was able to do it with this mod, although it was very, very hard. Daert was also able to do it with this mod as well. So mission accomplished!

I also think the spell combinations for both are very well suited for Warrior and Mage playing styles keeping in mind the Mana pool available to each character early, which is a significant constraint on the viability / utility of various spell / troop combinations.

Perhaps there is a way for Bagyr to do it without Orc Scouts, but I haven't found the combination, yet, while sticking to Orc-only troops.

Thanks for your comments - give it a try and post back here with any new thoughts / insights! :)

/C\/C\

I did try it out at least twice with some different variants - the narrowness is that you have to use the Trap spell to get you the Trapper Medal and go Diversion Level 2 when you get Level 5 Bagyr. The +25% Trap damage, 3 starting Traps and possibly 3 to 4 more from your Trap spell are very critical to beating the Elven and Human Shelter stacks.

You also have to buy all the units from the Troll Shop (well the level 4 and below ones) because they are what you use to augment your troop stack sizes as you level up after Tristrem.

Bagyr's summoner is the Orc Scout - you've got to summon those Wolves, and you also have to use your Shamans to summon totems for the enemy ranged troops to waste their attacks on. The Catapults can also absorb a bit of damage as they are often targeted by the Elven stack. The Orcs / Veteran Orcs are your tanks so use them and your nuke spell is Trap. Don't forget about Healing Totems and the Magic Axe that heals all your troops - these are very key!

In both playthroughs, I ended up putting the Spirit Talkers in reserve as they seemed too fragile for the Elves, but I never had the maximum of them.

You should have an option of 6 different troops to choose from so you should be able to find the right combination.

Yep - you've hit the nail on the head here! None of the Might Tree skills are useful early - you have to save the Runes to get Diversion, preferably to Level 2 when Bagyr reaches Level 5. A point in Meditation gives you 1 more Trap cast per battle, which is very important.

You are actually dead wrong here - this is the only thing that will tip the balance in your favor.

Did you buy the Clay Bowl from the Troll Shop? That gives you +5 Mana and 3 Traps a battle to work on your Trapper Medal, which should be doable by the time you are done with the Catacombs. This gives you +1 Trap and +25% Trap Damage (only to starting Traps, not cast ones - a very important note). You should also be able to get Level 1 Diversion by Bagyr Level 3 so you should be another +1 Trap and I was able to get Level 2 Diversion by Bagyr Level 5 in both my trials.

It is all in how you use them - they should be able to hold their own against the Elven and Human stacks if you are using your Shamans / Orc Scouts properly as well as your Orcs (not very tanky, but just enough) and your Orc Veterans (still not as tanky as your Orc Scouts and Shamans so don't forget that). There is a bit of a learning curve here that you may have to go through, but you should be able to do it.

It, honestly, was significantly easier than the Ball of Lightning and Kamikaze Daert playthrough's I did in the unmodded game that I posted about in the No-Loss topic. I was able to even do the big Spider stack in the Catacombs with this troop (although sometimes you can do this stack no problem and get beat by the Elven / Human Shelter stacks).

Yes they count as losses and if they are the last ones remaining, you lose.

Well, thanks for giving it a try, @ckdamascus - post here what your strategy was and what your Tristrem exit troops were and maybe I can give you some more pointers...

I did mention that it would still be very challenging due to how much Bagyr is crippled so please see if you can employ these tips and keep trying! :)

Also, it is a bit boring, but try the Furious Goblin money farming trick if you have Dryads in one of the 3 Tristrem stacks so that you can buy the Trapper item - that will make it even easier (note that I did not buy this item in either trial so it is not needed, but put there as something to try to get). If you are having trouble, you need to farm as much money as possible and buy all the stuff you can (items and units at least) from the Troll Shop - good luck!

/C\/C\

But matt, that's precisely my point about having a "railroaded" one-way to beat the mission. I mean it's great you are basically mimicking the demoness' way to get through, but I've already done that build.

- Can't use spirit walkers
- Have to level up trapper
- Have to be level 5 which means you have to annoyingly beat all the other stacks ahead of time

I'm sorry, that's sort of lame. I did that sort of build with the demoness, so why should we have to do it again with the warrior? You outlined a SINGLE path to be able to do it nevermind it highlights the greatest boredom of the mage back in Armored Princess -- waiting for your stupid mana to regenerate with high rage. :(

To top it all off, I bet if I get an "unlucky" roll of strong troops I'll have wasted all that time trying to level up just to fail on the elf shelter mission.

I mean its great that this build will prob work most of the time. It's terrible that it's the only build that works. You shouldn't really have to be FORCED into going with diversions and traps especially as a warrior when this is the "prescribed" method for the demoness who can natively get diversion more easily. Nevermind that some people actually HATE having traps on the field for later on.

Let's keep brainstorming ideas...
 

I hear you, but unfortunately, I have not found another way to do it with respect to the constraints I've imposed and I've really been trying, believe me.

Here are all the problems that I've tried to solve with Bagyr with this mod:

• No good units at start and in Tristrem - most Orc troops are very weak compared to Undead / Demon variants, the best troop, Veteran Orcs, does have a chance to have a few more sold in the shop, but the chance is 25%.
• Leadership too low - he'll only have about 400 Leadership @Level 5 by the time he's at the Shelter so at most he can command 2 to 4 level 4 troops depending on their leadership.
• Very low mana - unmodded game he'd have 16 Mana by the time you got to the shelter.
• No shops after Tristrem - no way to get any troops to augment his starting troops after leaving this place until the Shelter and those troops are pretty much no help.
• No spells to aid that path - Slow and Haste do nothing to really help solve this problem.

I've tried to use the following constraints for Bagyr:

• Use only Orc troops
• Use spells / abilities that do not require a lot of Mana and actually are useful in the goal of no loss
• Use Skills that are selectable from runes acquired during level up that aid in achieving no loss

Considering the above, though, this mod fixes a lot of the problems I identified above:

• No good units at start and in Tristrem - gives at least 1 of each level 4 Orc unit as well as at least 2 of each level 3 Orc unit. This gives great variability to your starting lineup.
• Leadership too low - I didn't necessarily fix this issue, but I do provide sufficient troops in the Troll shop to at least maximize 2 out of the 5 troop stacks you decide to use going forward to the shelter.
• Very low mana - the Clay Bowl gives +5 Mana and +6 with Meditation so you should have at least 21 Mana once you get to the Shelter.
• No shops after Tristrem - improved the Troll shop so that you can buy some good stuff before traveling onward that should really help with your predicament.
• No spells to aid that path - Trap does a great job to help Bagyr with using his army / available skills to at least do no loss impossible.

Let's face it, you have to use Diversion, which I know Neoline uses as well and even Daert will pick it, too, but that's really all we got to work with when using the above constraints.

The only other ideas I got are to break one or more of the above constraints. There are probably a number of level 4 units you can add to the shop to help you with going forward: Neutrals such as Assassins, Beholders, and Royal Griffins; Lizards such as Brontors, Choshas, and Highterants; perhaps even Vikings with Valkyrie's. You'd probably also need the Gifts spell since with 16 Mana you could cast it once on one of those troops and you could then use their charged ability 3 more times.

That's about the only other way I think you could give Bagyr a chance - we're really boxed into a corner on this one due to the weakness of the Warrior's Might Tree for the first few skills - not a single one helps, the weakness of the Orc troops in general, and the lack of no spells and Mana.

Let's face it, though, people are going to pick Diversion anyway since it is the only useful path early for pretty much Warrior or Paladin and you have the runes to do it. So I think this funnels our early choices and we'll end up picking it anyway.

That leaves us with changing the Might Tree to give you some good bonuses with the first and second tier skills that are appealing alternatives to the Spirit Tree. Things such as Start Defense from TL might be good if you could get 40% Physical resistance (probably have it last 1 round for each point in it) for a few rounds. I'd go with +10% / 1 round, +20% / 2 rounds, +40% / 3 or 4 rounds for levels 1 through 3. Endurance could possibly be changed to this. Should have enough Runes to get it to level 3 by the time you were Level 5. We could also add 200, 500, and 1000 Leadership to a skill, which would be huge early in the game! Or perhaps you get +100 for each point in the first row of Might Skills. This would encourage you to pick them, the trick though is that you'd only be able to max out 2 out of the 5 stacks after Tristrem from the Troll shop. Although, I guess if you have 1000+ Leadership worth of Spiders / Snakes maybe using the eggs in the Catacombs would be enticing if you could somehow keep those fragile troops from losing a unit. Once again, Physical Resistance during the first couple of rounds might be a really good idea.

See if we can keep these constraints:

• Use only Orc troops
• Use spells / abilities that do not require a lot of Mana and actually are useful in the goal of no loss
• Prefer Might Tree Skills

Try to think of some Might Tree Skill changes that might help Bagyr - that's really the problem we're dealing with here. I think the above unit selection is sufficient, but we really need more than +Attack / +Defense bonuses from the Might Tree otherwise there is no reason to pick any of those skills and we need Bagyr to have a stronger army than Neoline's if we're not going to use the Trapper Medal / Diversion route.

/C\/C\

Honestly, I think the best option is to raise the starting leadership and give Bagyr more units. I think your unit selection was really good given the constraints as it does have all the ingredients necessary.

It's somewhat bizarre that Bagyr gets less leadership than Neoline. Classically, warriors get more leadership and I realize the leadership buff was to make the paladin class more enticing.

I mean if I have to use diversion/traps I guess I have to use them. As a mage, I didn't have to use them but I modified the game to give myself ancient vampires. Even then I don't think I was able to no-loss the shelter guys but I made sure my vampires lived.

Not sure if my 'op' orc army could win with losses. I suppose I could just "eat" the losses. The problem is if I take losses too soon, I might actually have trouble in the Whitehall fight (even with jealousy, it doesn't last that long).

You can experiment with Leadership by trying this...
 

You know I thought about this some more and the easiest way to try out if more leadership would work would be to simply use the "leadership #" and "doublearmy" cheat codes and then try it without going Trapper Medal / Diversion with my mod.

You could also use the "magicbook" cheat to give yourself all the spells and then experiment with spell combos and your units. That's what I did when I was experimenting with Daert's winning spell combos.

It is curious that Bagyr starts with only 200 Leadership (only 20 more than Daert) while Neoline starts with 270. Although it probably wouldn't make much of a difference, I could see Bagyr starting with 250 Leadership instead of 200.

Bagyr's Leadership levelup is 15 per level so starting at 200 + 30 + 45 + 60 + 75, he'd have 410 Leadership @Level 5 (+210). If he started at 250 he'd have 460.

With the -10% Leadership Requirement, Orc Scouts and Shamans are 180, Veteran Orcs 126, Orcs 67.5, Spirit Talkers 45, and Catapults 117. With those Leadership values you could have the following maximum troops (with 460 Leadership):

• Catapult - 3
• Spirit Talker - 10
• Orc - 6
• Veteran Orc - 3
• Orc Scout - 2
• Shaman - 2

Now imagine if he could get another 250 Leadership from somewhere, so now we're at 710:

• Catapult - 6
• Spirit Talker - 15
• Orc - 10
• Veteran Orc - 5
• Orc Scout - 3
• Shaman - 3

And then lastly another -10% Orc Leadership Reduction - Orc Scouts and Shamans are 160, Veteran Orcs 112, Orcs 60, Spirit Talkers 40, and Catapults 104:

• Catapult - 6
• Spirit Talker - 17
• Orc - 11
• Veteran Orc - 6
• Orc Scout - 4
• Shaman - 4

That might be enough to get him there without going Diversion / Trapper. Of course you can only pick 5 out of the 6 armies, but this could be a target number of troops to experiment with.

Perhaps Heroism can add Leadership Reduction bonuses to Orc troops and the Wooden Breastplate could add +150 Leadership and the Orc Warlord Helm + 100.

We then have the last problem of how do we get his army to have these numbers of troops when you get to the Shelter (perhaps a Recruiter type bonus that automatically adds troops like Goblin Shamans and Orc Chieftains in CW). The shop could only be used for maximizing two of those stacks.

I may play around with this in the future, but I've been playing my Deart Phoenix game lately so we'll see...

/C\/C\

I think its the requirement to use only Orc troops which makes fixing Bagyr's start so unnecessarily complicated.
Sure, Neoline can do impossible/no loss as is with using all demon troops.

For Daert, things are a bit different already: in the unmodified game he has to rely on getting a ultra-rare spell from the ore cart and he will use his 2 free Vampires only. Using just one undead stack does not quite feel the same as using all undead troops to me, although that might be considered a technicality.

More imporant is that relying on a strong spell like Phoenix early on does feel like a natural choice for the mage class, while turning Bagyr into a trapper imho does not.

I think ckdamascus summed up my feelings on this pretty well :



In my suggestion, I would also like to keep the changes from the unmodified game to a minimum -this should be a fix for a developers oversight and not a complicated mod.

Because I'm not a modder myself I do not know if these ideas are technically possible to do, but if its possible, how about these suggestions:

1) Find a short-time ally who also flees from the forces of light (after all they advance everywhere, dont they ?). The easiest idea here might be the troll having a child he wants Bagyr to take with him to safety. A single Troll with weaker stats, less hitpoints (2-300 maybe?) and correspondingly lower leadership requirement might be a more elegant solution. He'd stay with Bagyr until he can leave the shelter, which just happens to be after the whitehill fight(s).
Should it not be possible to mod/implement such a baby troll into the game just add one additional stack of a friendly troop as desired on the map (or purchasable somewhere) maybe ?

or

2) I like the idea of giving Bagyr more leadership to deal with this in his own way, but I think this should be a temporary buff as to not change the balance of the campaign for all the fights AFTER whitehill. Is it possible to offer an artifact with a +x Leadership bonues and have the game remove it after whitehall ? Or maybe its a cursed artifact with +leadership and -100% max rage ?
Some additional troops would be necessary to offer for him to buy, but this would feel like giving the player MORE options as opposed to forcing him down the only working skill path.

or

3) mod the game to reduce the stack sizes of the initial battles to a manageable amount while leaving the game otherwise unchanged.

So is any of these mods technically possible or am I just dreaming ?

Great ideas! Keep 'em coming!
 

These are all very interesting points...

I certainly agree with you here.

With this mod, Daert has more useful Undead troops and it just feels more natural for a Mage.

Relying on Phoenix for Daert doesn't feel right to me since its an Order spell. With this mod, Daert uses Chaos spells, which are more natural of a path for an Undead Mage - at least at the beginning of the game.

As far as Bagyr, I honestly think the Trapper Medal / Diversion route is the most natural for an Orc / Warrior.

Think about it, which of the 3 characters is most likely to be out trapping? It's a Warrior and an Orc to boot.

Diversion belongs in the Might tree, honestly, and probably Heroism with its +Defense belongs in the Spirit tree. The problem is that most of us played Neoline first and we did not question the fact that Diversion is in her tree rather than the Might tree and so as you all so aptly point out, we've done this before with respect to trapping.

This is the real problem, to me though: Diversion is in the wrong tree!

That was one of my goals with this mod as well, plus there is only a limited amount of things we can do with using KB_DB_EDIT (the tool I've been using to edit the *.LOC files).

I pretty much know how to do all this except for how to take the unit away. The strange thing here, though, is that you could probably accomplish the same thing with giving him 2 to 3 of either Brontors, Choshas, or Highterants. The Highterants, especially with their egg laying or the Choshas with their summoning would probably be all you need to push them over the top. I then wouldn't have to use the Orc Scouts, thus preserving that questline for later in the game as originally intended.

More Leadership does seem natural to me, too. I don't see a need to take it away as long as it is not a whole lot more. The +150 and +100 from items is a lot at the start of the game, but those items will be ditched later, so I see no need to curse them.

As an alternate, it does not seem unreasonable to me to give each class 20 times their levelup leadership rate for starting Leadership: Bagyr: 15 * 20 = 300, Neoline: 20 * 20 = 400, Daert: 10 * 20 = 200. I don't see that as being unreasonable since it is based on their levelup capability.

As far as troops are concerned, the right amount of troops sold at the Troll shop would allow you to use two full stacks in the Shelter with your reserve slots. This is pretty much now this mod works now.

I had actually considered this, but Neoline seems pretty well tuned for the stack sizes in the Shelter / Whitehill so I went with changing Bagyr and Daert instead.

An alternate is to add some level 3 / 4 Orc troops to the Shelter shop when you get there to augment the ones you already have (of course these would also be available to Neoline and Daert as well).

All of your ideas sound doable for the most part or implementable with perhaps some limitations or alternates that are roughly equivalent.

But let's hit the reset button for a moment and consider this:

If you played Bagyr first, and saw Diversions where Heroism was, would you have thought twice about it or just picked the skill and kept playing?

For me, I honestly wouldn't have thought about it and just kept playing. The Traps seem more natural to a Warrior for me. The skipping turn part, could be more natural for Neoilne / Spirit tree. We could split this skill apart, putting the trapping ability in Might and keeping the skipping turn part in Spirit.

Has anyone played Daert with this mod? I think his playthrough now works really well as he can focus on the Magic tree and use his various Chaos spells to great effect. So I think at least Daert is good now.

As far as Bagyr is concerned, I think the Trapper Medal / Diversion route is much more natural for him than Neoline. If the Trap part was in the Might tree to begin with then we really wouldn't be talking about this.

I think I could possibly remove Orc Scouts if I gave Bagyr the opportunity to get some level 4 Lizard troops. I don't think there are any eggs, but it is easy to add Brontor / Chosha / Highterant eggs to the game and have the Troll shop sell 3 or so of them (probably have it be random between one of those 3). You could then hatch them as needed to augment your army. They are not Orc troops, but I don't see it being unreasonable for the Troll shop to have some exotic Lizard troop eggs. As Lizard troops are not normally in the game, Bagyr could be unique with the opportunity to play with one or potentially more of them (you could even use Sacrifice later to augment their numbers if you really, really wanted to play them).

I like the ideas coming here, let's keep thinking of more ideas, but let's also not let the Neoline playthrough cloud our thoughts with what might be better suited for Bagyr.

I'm actually partial to the Lizard egg idea now that I'm thinking about it some more. There could be a lot of potential here, especially if you buy them as eggs. I'd have to see how much they'd cost, they might be expensive. Using Griffins and Ents as a guide, Highterant Eggs would be 520 a pop, Choshas 1500, and Brontors 1700. I'm not sure why Highterants are so much cheaper than the others, but they only cost 260 compared to 1100 for Choshas and 1300 for Brontors (egg cost is roughly Troop Cost + Leadership + Hitpoints).

Resetting back to the unmodded game, if I made it such that you had max Shamans and max of either Spirit Talkers, Catapults, Orcs, or Veteran Orcs by the time you hit the Shelter as well as a random level 4 Lizard troop maxed out due to eggs, that may go a long way as you could split the Shamans into at least 2 stacks to double up on their totems keeping ranged troops busy. The Choshas / Highterants could summon / lay eggs to get you some disposable troops or the Brontors could dig and attack remotely. Your other Orc troops could then support the others as needed, either dishing out ranged damage or protecting against melee troops.

If I gave Bagyr at least 250 Leadership to start the game, he'd have exactly 460 at Level 5 so that he could have at least 2 Brontors / Choshas or 3 Highterants. He'd have enough Leadership for 2 Shamans.

Shelter fights could be:

• 1 Shaman
• Maximum of either Spirit Talkers, Catapults, Orcs, Veteran Orcs
• Departing Tristrem numbers of either Spirit Talkers, Catapults, Orcs, Veteran Orcs
• 2 or 3 Lizard Egg troop
• 1 Shaman

I'd still give you Trap as a spell - you don't have to go Trapper Medal / Diversion if you don't want to although it'd be easier if you did.

I wonder if the above lineup would be sufficient to defeat the Elven / Human Shelter stacks. With the Orc Scouts, I continuously summoned Wolves multiple times so this may still not be enough.

We could then augment with more Leadership if the above proves insufficient or I could give the option of getting another Lizard troop, probably always Highterants and then either Brontors or Choshas.

Thanks for all the comments so far - keep 'em coming!

/C\/C\

New V0.2 Available!
 

I want to thank everyone who posted here as it helped me think outside the box a little bit and allowed me to make the below changes to Bagyr so that you now have a chance at no loss on impossible and you don't have to go the Trapper Medal / Diversion route.

You don't even need to be level 5, I was level 4 when I got to the Shelter and needed to defeat the Dwarven and Elven stacks before I made level 5. I also did all the stacks except the big spider stack in the Catacombs.

Here's the text from the README and the download is at the bottom of the post.

Daert and Bagyr No Loss Impossible - Giving Them a Chance Mod

This mod is only for use with King's Bounty - Darkside.

Tired of scanning saves for the right spell combination to do Daert no loss?
Tired of having Bagyr using uncontrollable stacks of spiders and snakes just to survive or don't want to go Trapper Medal / Diversion?
Tired of the fact that Neoline has a chance at no loss impossible with any start, but Bagyr and Daert don't?

Now you can actually play impossible no loss with either Bagyr or Daert, while still being challenged and at least trying all the fights from the start through Whitehill! You also get to start with new troops so that you can get a flavor of them right from the beginning of the game and Bagyr can play like a Warrior and Daert like a Mage and you'll be having fun instead of getting frustrated!

This is a very small mod that implements changes to balance out Bagyr and Daert so that they have a chance at no loss just like Neoline on impossible difficulty level.

Installation Instructions (note that my base Darkside folder is located here: C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\steamapps\common\Darkside\):

1. Extract the "mods" folder in this archive to: sessions\darkside\locations\ under you base Darskide folder (see above for an example of where it is located on my system) so that you have the following files:
   1. sessions\darkside\locations\mods\m_tristrem_start. embryos.loc
   2. sessions\darkside\locations\mods\m_vampire_start.e mbryos.loc
   3. sessions\darkside\locations\mods\hero.txt
2. Play the game! You should note that the starting scenario for Deart and Bagyr are now different, giving you new options and the chance for no loss on impossible difficulty!

Uninstallation Instructions:

1. Remove the mods folder from your sessions\darkside\locations folder (see above for where the base Darkside folder is located).
2. That's it!

Use at your own risk, but I sincerely hope you now enjoy playing as Bagyr or Daert! :)

If you have any comments or questions, please post them to this forum topic: http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=228683

Thanks, and good luck playing this mini mod!

Matt Caspermeyer

/C\/C\

This mod makes changes in the following files:

• sessions\darkside\locations\m_tristrem_start\m_tri strem_start.embryos.loc
• sessions\darkside\locations\m_vampire_start\m_vamp ire_start.embryos.loc
• sessions\darkside\ses.kfs\hero.txt

Here are the changes:

V0.2 - 2014-10-11 (thanks to @wyatan, @ckdamascus, and @Ezrekiel for their comments as they were very helpful in me formulating the changes to Bagyr). Note that this version has changes to Bagyr from V0.1, whereas Daert is the same as V0.1.

• m_tristrem_start.embryos.loc
  • Troops that will join Bagyr:
    • 5 Spirit Talkers
    • 1 Veteran Orc
    • 1 Shaman
    • 2 Catapults
    • 3 Orcs
  • Troll Shop:
    • Items (all other items are the same as the unmodded game):
      • 1 Symbol of Valor
    • Scrolls:
      • 1 to 2 Stone Skin
      • 1 to 2 Berserker
      • 1 to 2 random level 1 scrolls of 1 to 2 each
    • Units (Jotuns and Troll are still sold):
      • 5 Spirit Talkers
      • Either: 6 (additional) Spirit Talkers or 2 Catapults
      • 2 Veteran Orcs
      • 3 Shamans
• m_vampire_start.embryos.loc
  • Troops that will join Daert:
    • 2 Female Vampires
    • 2 Cursed Ghosts
• hero.txt
  • Bagyr:
    • Starting Leadership: 250
    • Starting Army:
      • 2 Catapults
      • 3 Orcs
      • 13 Furious Goblins
    • Spells:
      • Trap
    • Scrolls:
      • 1 Animal Call
  • Daert:
    • Starting Army:
      • 1 Necromancer
      • 1 Cursed Ghost
      • 1 Black Knight
    • Spells:
      • Poison Skull
      • Stone Skin
      • Weakness
    • Scrolls:
      • 1 Frost Grasp
      • 1 Kamikaze
      • 1 Evil Book

Good luck and I hope you enjoy playing the newer version if you want to play Bagyr. I'll leave V0.1 up so that people can still play that one if they want.

/C\/C\

Download V0.2 here:

It seems you understand a lot how to change stuff in the game.:) Is it possible Neoline top right item slot to be changed from placing only Regalia to Artifact/Regalia, same as Bagyr and Daert.

Matt - really great, had good fun using this. it remained a challenge whilst did make it doable (gave myself a trap scroll at start, just like using it).

i see that you have a thorough knowledge of the engine - i keep having crashes using the Last Hero spell. i know this has been an issue in the previous installment. any idea how to resolve it?

also, i noted you wrote that you had modded the "My first Alchemy set", making it state the amount of battle done. would be keen to have the same! the code / file would be much appreciated. would it be possible to just automate the rune donation upon reaching 10 battles?

lastly, the dragon eye item on the flying Island - somebody an idea if you need to equip it in order to have the benefit?

much thanks in advance - Elektra

These are probably off topic, but...
 

It certainly is - just edit HERO.TXT (there is a slots {} heading under each hero - change 5=regalia to 5=regalia,artefact (note that is misspelled with an "e" instead of an "i")).

Glad you're enjoying it! :)

I think that's a great scroll for Daert to use at the beginning of the game, where it is actually useful.

This should be resolved by the developers, but I haven't seen any updates from them in a while so who knows if they are going to fix it.

We should probably start another topic on this - unresolved bugs. I actually don't use the spell, but the error is most likely in the LUA files and can be fixed if you can repeat the procedure. In my modding of TL, I ran into all sorts of bugs that I had to use the debugger to fix, but I had to be able to repeat it, otherwise there is way too much guesswork.

If you can repeat the crash then I hope you send the save game file with instructions on how to repeat the crash to the developers to have them fix it.

If, in the end, they don't resolve the problem we can try to fix it ourselves, but once again it relies on a repeatable series of events from a save game.

Yah, I mean to open another topic with modding DS where we can post our mods. I actually have it modded now where you don't have to babysit the darn thing and can just cash in for runes when you get back to checking your inventory. I always forget about these items that give something after a certain number of wins and so now when you use it, it just subtracts 10 wins from the total and so long as your totals wins are 10 or more you can keep using it. For example, if you go 24 fights without using it, you can use it twice and then you'll be down to 4 wins and get 2 random runes.

I mean to start a new topic soon, but I've been doing some more modding with my TL H3B mod (just fixing bugs mostly) and need to finish that first. I'll try to do it soon, please be patient...

I don't remember that item, but I just looked it up: dragon_eye - it needs to be equipped it looks like.

/C\/C\

No idea how to resolve it (had a quick look at the time through the script files, and nothing stood out as an obvious bug, but at that point I hadn't isolated yet the exact repro steps), but here's how to deal with it when it's cast by an enemy hero:

http://steamcommunity.com/app/289520...9742693482518/

Hi Matt - has been some time :)

about to start a fresh one. would you have any solution available for the last hero bug? it is still there and so annoying to re-do battles.

also, your code on the automated chemical set rune would be much appreciated!

thanks as always - Elektra

Working on another project now...
 

Unfortunately, I've been sucked away on another project and I haven't had any time to work on modding any King's Bounty for about the last two months.

Since they are still releasing updates for Ice & Fire, you'd think they'd still be working on fixing bugs in Darkside.

Have you sent in the problem to 1CC? They should hopefully be able to fix the problem (if they aren't aware of it).

It'd be really nice in the Devs could fix these problems...

/C\/C\

Hi MattCaspermeyer
And many thanks for creating this fix. Orc and Vampire class were horribly unbalanced in the game i couldn't no-loss win the prologue with them without your fix (mod). :o

I tried both versions. First version was hard since you had to completely rely on diversion skill and hope for lucky placement of its trap and use trap spell which is weaker. It was hard but i managed to do that difficult spider stack (the one that is sitting in middle of some eggs) after many reloads. But second version is excellent, i was able to beat everything with orc class no-loss (on normal difficulty). ;-)

One thing though, one of the quests always give leadership with average amount of ~20, could you fix it so it always give us no less than 25 leadership? Else we can't always buy all available troops (lvl 5 units excluded of course) without some restarts.


But Vampire is still unbalanced. I couldn't beat that big spider stack at the catacombs and was forced to leave it alone. Human stack at the shelter was marked as deadly and was so difficult to win no-loss.
At whitehill first stack was marked very strong, second was marked dealy and the third was marked as INVINCIBLE. I made through the first two stack but as far as i see the third is not do able no-loss. And this is on normal difficulty, we are supposed to be able to them no-loss on impossible difficulty, right? :confused: :?

I have attached my save which is from gog version of the game. Btw, GOG version is on v1.5.1048.1751 if that counts. Probably gog is behind steam :(.

As i noticed you had those wolf riders removed from second version of the fix, because you are supposed to get them after forming a special order later on.

As i understand same thing goes for female vampires. In my demoness play through after i convinced that female scientist to go to the shelter, i went to the shelter and chatted with her. There was a line regarding these female vampires. Something like "i met a new sort of vampires which were female", which starts their quest. I had to bring 10 female vampires to her, so she could "copy" them. Alas i accidentally deleted the save in question and my quicksaves were overwritten when i played other races.
So i think they should be removed and replaced by other units, since it is not right to have them when you never saw them before and are supposed to make these "new" female vampires through that quest.

Also they are not anything special, their "long attack" is pointless when their base attack is of no retaliation sort, and you have to beat the enemy hard before you can you their "call" ability on them and on top of these, they can't regenerate their numbers.

So i think ancient vampires are good replacements.

Now other two classes have decent troops with lots of variety but Vampire only has four different sort of troops. Demoness has blood priestess which is able to resurrect your units and give you free units out of thin air, with their sacrifice ability (at first you are limited to resurrect low level units because their numbers are too low). And orcs have shamans which are able to heal your units every turn. But undeads can only resurrect by picking Eviln which is dropped randomly and is not reliable, so we should have maximum number of normal and ancient vampires.

A single black knight is no where as good as a single demon, because the demon can counter everyone that attacks him and also gets additional turns when he is attacked, which means he can inflict lots of damage and accumulate additional rage for you. It is not as good as a single veteran orc as well since veteran orcs after a few hits can gobble rage potion and counter anyone as well, also they counter enemy counter attacks which is pretty good against no retaliation enemies plus they can evade enemy attacks (and on top of that, they can run everywhere if you get enough adrenaline and run multiple times, which is good when you are going to defend a weak ranged unit), but what can a single black knight do other that their one-time "run" and weak ranged attack?
I think their number should be added to maximum, so they can hold stronger stacks back for a while longer.

And those cursed ghosts are not of any real use against fire arrows and ranged attack of inquisitors and the fact that their soul drain ability is bugged and makes them unable to resurrect dead units, adds to their uselessness. i always had to keep them on initial spot, because the further they go the more effective enemy ranged units become, and in close range they always use fire arrows and kill cursed ghosts easily. Also they have low hp.

Also since undead army only has necromancers as their ranged units, with no ranged special talent and it is not easy to reach ranged units of the enemy with melee units, their number should be maximized.

I am not sure, but a few skeleton archer could help to bring big spider stack at the catacombs.

Undead has too few leadership, so why not maximum every unit to even things? :D

Btw, since you improved Orc's leadership from 200 to 250, it would be nice and neat to improve undead's leadership from 180 to 200 and demoness's leadership from 270 to straight 300. 180 and 270 are strange numbers and don't go with 250. :rolleyes:

Hope you can fix everything that is mentioned above and give us a new and better version. :D

-- Edit --

And one thing in regard to shelter stores:
Demon shop sell all lvl 1-3 troops, if you could make orc and undead stores to sell all lvl 1-3 troops that would even things in that aspect.

Unfortunately, I have no time to perform any changes to the mod due to all my time being consumed on another project.

I'm not sure if you're using your spells correctly for Daert.

Frost Grasp and Kamikaze are very effective against the spider stacks and don't forget your Evil Book.

The starting units will bring you to the Shelter without any issues (I played a couple of times on impossible so normal should be cake) as long as you grab all the crystals and get your Evil Book at least to level 1 (if you get it to level 2 even better).

Note that you may have to skip the big Spider stack in the Catacombs - no biggie you can always fight them later.

Evil Book is your key to winning most battles and any troops that you find dying easily against the shelter stacks stick them in your garrison / reserve. Check the no loss posts here for other information to help you with your strategy (I have quite a few in the impossible thread where I was able to do no loss Daert with the original game files if you got a certain spell from the Ore Cart by the Dwarf castle).

Good luck - keep trying!

:-)

/C\/C\

Hi bro

I hope you find some spare time and tune the vampire as well. Just play all 3 races to the point where you can refill your army (without you ignore any enemy stack on the way) and you will see how hard it is with the vampire

It would be better if we could defeat all enemies without having to scribe scrolls and waste crystals before we get Bibliophile lvl 3. After all for a mage magic crystal are very important.

When i was playing bagyr with second version of your fix, that strong spider stack was so easy, that at first i thought you have decreased their numbers to half the original, but end-fight window proved me wrong. :D

But the vampire is not half as strong, troop wise.
I found it impossible to even kill that strong spider stack with losses, since they were strong enough that they could kill my troops with one strike. With other races i had slight difficulty to deal with them.

Dwarf stack at shelter was easy (marked as very strong though)

Elf stack at shelter was not so hard because archers were so far away and faun's nightmare talent and werewolf's howl talent were useless because of undead's natural resistances.

But human stack was hard, what with healing of priests which was pretty effective with no distance penalty and poweful projectile of inquisitors and on top of that i had archers also guardsmen were evading blows all the time while my single black knight was doomed to suffer lots of damage. it took me a number of reloads to win it no loss, since i only had a single necromancer to deal with them and only in first 2 rounds which melee attackers were not close, i could use spells on ranged enemies, but i managed.

But last stack at whitehill is really invincible that i can't win it no loss. I even have diversion lvl 2 with 2 traps but can't beat 23 swordsman, 17 priests of light, 13 guardsman, another 16 priests and 14 bowman. Priest's unavoidable kills aside, per what you suggested I even used evil books as tank to absorb damage but melee units of the enemy are so strong that they kill the book with 2 blows and these evil books are pretty useless with their randomness. And Kamikaze is pretty hard to use, if i attach it to melee units, it blows when they reach my troops and if i attach them on healers and ranged units that doesn't help either, since it goes off pretty late and healer already healed my units by then.

I really think we should have maximum number of at least black knights and necromancers, female vampires should be replaced with ancient ones and normal vampires should be added too.

With orcs it was very easy distracting everyone with 2 totems every round and dealing damage at the same time with trap, catapults and hyena riders :mrgreen:

And with demoness it was easy as well. I could throw two powerful fireballs at ranged units, hit them with fire arrows spell and then teleport demon to enemy side so he can hit other weak melee troops while i bring a weak ranged unit nearby and hit them with blood priestess in round 1 and after that i had nothing to worry about.

I think we shouldn't rely solely on the spell book and like other races we should get a decent army, strong enough to make us able to defeat map guardian of Monteville, so we can get there and refill our army.

With demoness we can go to Atrixus and get strong troops and refill our army right away.

And with orcs you can go Tristrem from catacombs, then exist (since you can't avoid the nearby troops), go to the port and take a ship to there and get your army filled.

But with undead we can't refill our army before we defeat that guardian.

I've played many times on impossible in the past - on normal difficulty you should have no problem with this mod.

The whole point of modding Daert was that he was a mage. The amount of crystals you'll lose by not having Bibliophile is insignificant in the grand scheme of the game (although 1 level in it may help you get more spells with the limited crystals).

If you refuse to use this strategy, then I can't really help you since you're ignoring the class of your starting character.

A mage is supposed to defeat great armies with a small force. That is how I modded Daert and so if you don't use you're spell book to its fullest, you're not going to be able to do no loss with this mod.

That's the way it goes.

This stack is easily skipped if you can't beat it as I mentioned. I've also had to skip it with Bagyr on Impossible sometimes. There are many stacks in the game (not only at the start) that you need to return to. This is one that you try a couple of times and if you can't get them, then skip them.

Remember, you only have to kill 1 of the Whitehill stacks (not all 3). You find the easiest one and then you're done. You can return later to kill the other two. By the way, it used to be all 3 back in the beta days.

This would sure make it easier, but it is not necessary. If you read the previous threads in this topic, you'll see that I thought it a neat idea to let only Daert play Female Vampires early. It gives new players a chance to play a new Undead unit (just like Neoline and Bagyr get to use some of their new units).

You can actually defeat everything with just two regular Vampires (I did this with the original game on Impossible quite a few times - read the impossible no loss thread) through the first Whitehill stack (this also includes all the basement stacks).

One Ancient Vampire will make the whole play through Whitehill way too easy.

So I went with Female Vampires since they are not as good as regular Vampires and it gives you a chance to try them out at the beginning of the game.

You're missing the whole point of playing the mage class! If you use your army to defeat the enemy stacks, then you're playing just like a Warrior.

So I think in the end, your play style is not suited for the mage class. That is where all the trouble lies.

You can't return to any of the starting locations until you defeat one of the Whitehill stacks and return to the Shelter. After this, any class can go get Demons, etc. sold in Atrixus. You can even kite your way all the way to Helvetia (or whatever it's called) and get Archdemons!

I can see that you have a certain style of play that you seem a bit inflexible on and so that is preventing you from doing no loss Daert with my mod on Normal (mind you I designed this for no loss on Impossible).

As such there is really no need for any changes and so I hope you rethink your play style for a mage as no loss on normal should be really easy with this mod.

Good luck!

/C\/C\

I sent you a PM.

Hey MattCaspermeyer, pls answer PM.

PS: Hopefully, you have subscribed to this topic and get a notification for this post.

Hi @MattCaspermeyer! Thanks for the mod, it makes the game more fun for these two classes!
I tried to make some small changes to the hero.txt (want to give Bagyr slow and haste spell) in your mod but there were nothing changed in the game after the edit. May i ask for your help to teach me how to do the edit? thanks a lot!

New Thread That Discusses How to Mod
 

By the way, I started a new forum thread that talks about how to mod the game without the editor here:

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=229817

Feel free to post questions there as it is a bit complicated...

Matt