wrong usn/usmc/usaaf markings for corsair mkI on solomons maps except jan 44
 

After installing the patch 4.10.1 When selecting the Corsair MkI, and turning on markings for USN or USMC or USAAF on all of the new Solomons maps except Jan 44 the US marking applied to the aircraft is the early US national marking of the white star, blue background (circle) and red dot in the center. :( This insignia was last used at Coral Sea in early May 1942 and was not present for the Battle of Midway. Is there a fix in the near future for this? This also occured when I tested the same maps with the Corsair MkII and Corsair MkIV. Best I can tell no other aircraft are affected this way except those I mentioned here.

Already answered in the other thread you asked about this in - try the F4Us and see if the same thing happens. 'Corsairs' were the versions supplied to the RN.

The F4U-1A, F4U-1C, F4U-1D markings are correct on all of the Solomon Maps. The Corsair MK I and for test purposes the Corsair MKII and Corsair MKIV when selecting USN/USMC/USAAF markings default to early 1942, 6 position white stars on blue circles with red dots in the center on all of the Solomon maps except the Solomons Jan 44 Map. This did not occur on the Pacific Islands map nor on the Coral Sea Online 1 map when I tested it there.

It appears to be triggered by some setting with these particular maps and since I hadn't read any thread mentioning this I posted it in hopes that it gets corrected.

The Corsair Mark I was meant to be the Royal Navy version (why on earth we got that version rather than the F4U-1 USN version is beyond me) so the US markings are the default rather than painted on that MOST US aircraft have.

The markings themselves, as of 4.10.1, are much better looking and they change depending on the mission date. Not the map date (that's irrelevant to this feature to the best of my knowledge). Change the mission date.

Markings are affected by mission date since 4.10. So, if you have, say, 1939 set as mission date, you'll get early style markings. If you have 1944 - you got late style.
On "dedicated" US planes markings are painted on default skin, hence they are not affected by this.

I had already attempted to change the dates for the mission. No matter what I do I get pre-midway US markings (with the red dot in the star) when I select US for the Corsair I. This only happens with the Solomons maps prior to Jan 44. If I select the January 1944 Solomons map I get the correct US markings on the Corsair Mk I.

I just checked again. Solomons map, early. Same mission, only dates are changed:

http://img263.imageshack.us/i/markings.jpg/

All works perfect.

No all is not perfect. As a matter of fact all three pictures depict the wrong markings for the time period in the Pacific Theater.

Picture One, 1942. This set of markings was removed from the USN/USMC aircraft prior tot he Battle of Midway in June 1942. Your picture number three would be appropriate for the time frame June 1942 until approximately the spring or early summer of 1943 for all USN/USMC combat aircraft.

Picture Two, 1943. These markings were used on USN aircraft in the Mediterranean during Operation Torch only and only on Grumman F4F Wildcats and Douglas SBD Dauntless and possibly Grumman TBF Avengers . These markings never appeared in the Pacific Theater and were never applied to Corsairs or Hellcats when delivered to the USN or USMC.

Picture Three, 1944. These markings (6 position blue circle with white star) were applied to USN/USMC aircraft from June 1942 until approximately sometime in the spring or early summer 1943. The F4U-1 (we have to use the Corsair Mk I in the game) made its combat debut in February 1943 in the Solomons based on Guadalcanal with the Marines. White Bars were then added to the blue circle with white star and applied to only four positions on the airplane in the spring or early summer 1943. Around July-August 1943 a red border was added to the blue circle and bars, but was replaced by a blue border by January 1944.

These same anomalies occurred when I tested the Corsair MK II and Corsair Mk IV on the same maps even though I would never select these aircraft to use US markings normally. When I tested the maps and selected the F4U-1A, F4U-1C and F4U-1D these planes always had the correct US markings regardless of the map.

Maybe someone changed the USN/USMC markings for the Corsair Mk I, a RN plane, when choosing the US Navy or US Marine Corp for the country in version 4.10 or 4.10.1 because this problem was not there in 4.09m or earlier regardless of map or time period.

Mailman... the markings, if you recall, were horrible in 4.09 and there was no date system to determine them. Yes they did change along with most other markings that were not of the paint on variety. Everything from the Russian, German, RAF and USAAF/USMC/USN markings changed.

Obviously the details of the changes aren't quite right as the dates are a little off on the marking usage and indeed the Torch markings are very specific to the African operations and were removed very soon after that operation was finished.

You're only seeing the markings as they are on the Corsair Mark I (or other planes) because it's using the "Default" bitmap on top of the skin style that most aircraft in IL-2 use. Most American aircraft use the painted on variety which is distinct and used only in a few places outside of the American aircraft. Since the Corsair Mark I was intended to be marked up with Royal Navy markings and not American ones is the reason for the problems.

Ultimately three points to make:

1) The Solomons map has nothing to do with this discussion. So far as I know the maps themselves do not determine markings except for overall theater markings where applicable (there is Pacific, Europe Winter and Europe Summer to the best of my knowledge).

2) The new US default markings are a huge improvement but the dates for introduction and theater specifics are wrong or only narrowly applicable.

3) It'd be REALLY nice to have a separate entry for the F4U-1 or if not, at least a USN/USMC specific skin that could be applied when those are specified that would feature the painted on marking type.

Isn't 'USN markings on RAF Corsairs' wrong at all? I don't get it.


EDIT: ah, reading in that other thread, I understand now: you want in fact a F4U-1 and so you were going for a compromise, using the Corsair MK.I. And you are complaining about the historical inaccuracy of your compromise.
Well, a decent F4U-1 default skin for USN could indeed help to make your compromise looking less like a compromise.

I have plenty of USN and USMC skins for the F4U-1/Corsair Mk I. I am actually complaining about the historical accuracy of the USN/USMC markings not the actual skin. The problem is that when you choose to "turn markings on" in the quick mission builder while on the arming screen; the picture changes and shows the correct USN/USMC markings, but then when you click on fly and the mission loads the incorrect insignia appears on the airplane when looking from the cockpit depending on the time-frame of the mission. This also occurs in the FMB. The '42 USN/USMC markings in the game never existed for the F4U-1 nor did the USN/USMC markings for '43 in the game for the F4U-1. The '44 markings in the game are correct for early 1943 only for the F4U-1 Corsair not 1944. By 1944 the F4U-1 was wearing the same late war makings, "stars and bars", as the rest of the US Corsairs.

The problem is that the stars & bars emblem is not possible in realistic dimensions with the marking system. That would require a rectangle with greather width than height ... and we have a square. This is also the reason dedicated US skins are available for certain types - the later insignia is on them in accurate dimensions.

Well I don't pretend to know how the national insignia is applied to a particular skin when you turn markings on. In other words I don't know the mechanics of making it happen.

I do know that in 4.09m and earlier versions the blue circle and white star appeared when you turned "markings on" and was historically correct. This was more correct than what we have in the latest version and maybe we should go back to this.

With 4.10.1 three different national markings appear depending what the date of the mission. The '42 & '43 markings are not historically correct and never appeared on the airplane.

The fact that replies and explanations have been written is appreciated and I hope a solution to this problem get found and implemented.

You mean you liked the bright blue emblem with the white star that extended outside of the roundel? Yeah that was accurate :D

Of course it wan't accurate, but if you didn't zoom in it looked closer than the '42 and '43 insignia that shows when you fly the Corsair Mk I in this version of the game.

Maybe the same roundel and star that is default in '44 could be made to show for all dates for the Corsair Mk I when selecting USN/USMC.

Mailman ... The marking system is generic which means it can't be tailored to each and every planetype. It's not perfect in a lot of situations, but it's what we have to work with. Sorry.

I understand. It was just a response to the immediate previous post about the quality of old versus new markings.

Having said that what changed between 4.09 and 4.10 where we had one national insignia for this plane during all time periods to where we have three different national insignia that show up depending on the date?

thanks

And BTW: we have no F4U-1 in game.
:rolleyes:

Well how badly do you really want to split hairs with this statement?

Let me educate you since you brought it up.

We have the Corsair Mk I in the game. The Corsair Mk I is the F4U-1 that was sold to the Royal Navy. They are identical in every detail except for the camouflage and national insignia painted on the wings and fuselage. Another difference is that the US and RN used different numbering systems for the plane serial numbers.

Now to split some more hairs. Vought never referred to the Corsair Mk I by this designation instead Vought referred to it as the Corsair I. The Corsair I was built by Vought (F4U-1), Brewster (F3A-1) and Goodyear (FG-1) for the Royal Navy concurrently with those built for the USMC/USN. Again whether you call it the Corsair I or the Corsair Mk I it is still in fact the F4U-1.

To take this deeper, Chance Vought never had a designation of F4U-1A. They only reference that at a certain production number the canopy changed and the R-2800-8W was installed and plumbing was added for a single external fuel tank, but they still called it the F4U-1. The Royal Navy version was further modified by shortening the wings to fit on RN carrier hangar decks and was designated the Corsair II and was built by Vought, Brewster and Goodyear. So while we are splitting hairs, what most people refer to as the F4U-1A is also the F4U-1 so technically we do have it in the game.

Chance Vought only references the F4U-1, F4U-1C, F4U-1D, F4U-2 (night figher version of F4U-1), Corsair I, and shortened wing variants Corsair II, Corsair III (F3A-1D) and Corsair IV (FG-1D) as well as the F4U-4 variants, F4U-5 variants, F4U-6, F4U-7, AU-7. FG-2 variants were strictly Goodyear developments not Chance Vought.

So roll your eyes over that.

Earlier in the thread it was acknowledged by everyone that we know there is no plane in the game with the designation F4U-1. It was further discussed in the thread there never will be a plane in the game with the designation F4U-1 citing the current legal status that prevents it. So we have to use the Corsair Mk I which is listed as a GB plane and has the proper national roundels of a RN plane. The game though gives the player the choice to select any county when flying it. So it follows that we can choose any USMC/USN skin and choose to select USMC or USN as the country for the Corsair Mk I (F4U-1) and that the correct national insignia should be applied to our skin choice. In the version 4.09m and earlier there was one set of US national insignia (as poor a graphic quality as it was) that would be applied to to this plane regardless of time frame. In 4.10.1 three sets are available and are applied automatically and each one is applied for a specific time frame. It was also established that the two earliest national insignia were never historically applied to the US F4U-1 aka. Corsair Mk I in the game. So the question has been can this be fixed and how can it be done. Which is where we were at just before your absurd comment? You up to speed now?

I saw what I perceived as a problem and how it differed from the previous versions. People much smarter than I have explained how this occurred and what some possible fixes could be. I leave it in their hands to fix the issue which is all I can ask. If it happens it happens if it doesn't it doesn't I am powerless to do anything more so I will just lay it to rest.

Thanks to those who took the time to explain to me how the markings work with default skins and how they were applied based on dates and not the maps themselves. Thanks for explaining about the star and bars being to big and rectangular to fit on the required "square". Thanks for bringing up the suggestion of getting a default skin for the USMC/USN with the correct roundels and stars. I just hope that something can be done to make sure only the historically correct markings are placed on the Corsair Mk I/F4U-1 when the country selected is USMC or USN.

With that I am oversubscribed to this thread.