What kind of joystick for CoD ?
 

Il-2 Sturmovik : Cliffs of Dover release is now close. We all know that the priority is to get a capable PC in order to run it, but there is another question too : what is the best joystick to get ? :confused:
I open this thread to discuss it, in order to share experiences, knowledge and feeling about all this stuff. :)

Be careful tough, it's not an "advertising" thread.

Obviously, i would be very pleased if Oleg and/or Ilya could help us, explaining as many as they can on this subject. ;)

Personally, i think i could be interested in the Warthog as Ilya was playing with in the "Friday 2011-02-04 Dev. update and Discussion", but it seems to not have a Force FeedBack nor a tool yoke and be far too expensive to my mind... A shame cos it looks nice... But i believe the "perfect" joystick for Il-2 does not exist yet ! :(

Asking "what is the best joystick for CoD" is about the same as asking what is
the best car to buy. If you ask 25 people you'll probably get 20 different answers.
Just read all the reviews you can and go with what ever appeals to you and is
in your price range ;)

We also plain don't know yet. Until the game is actually in our hands your guess is as good as anyone elses. I am under the assumption that a joystick that you liked for 1946 and that you currently own should be your first stop since ... you already own it. From there its just a waiting game until launch day / Oleg speaks otherwise.

Whats your budget?Do you want a hotas?Rudder pedals?

Similar topic: http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=18347

Sokol1

I was waiting for an answer to my questions to share the link to that thread.Well to the OP check that other thread for some info.

If you want to spend $100 or less then you are probably going to want to stick with Logitech. They seem to have the best quality control for the sub $100 line, which is more than I can say for their more expensive offerings.

If you want to go for $100-200 then you're going to have some more options and troubles. The X-52 line from Saitek is nice, but there are lots of issues with spiking and general crappiness in their quality control. If you decide to get an X-52 make sure you're close enough to the store to get it replaced (multiple times if needed). These sticks also have issues with wearing out after a year.

CH also offers some stuff in this price range, and they seem to be the guys with the best quality control, but you're also going to be getting something that looks like it hopped off the plane from 1993.

$300+ puts you into the G940 the X-62 and Warthog territory.

The G940 is the only hotas with a rudder and force feedback, but it still has a reversal bug on the rudder and the throttle, plus it has issues with overheating and shutting down after extended use (+1 hour of flying).

The X-62 is a force sensing stick that doesn't move. Better for modern sims like Falcon 4 and DSC A10. There isn't much out there on this since most people don't trust Saitek to make something worth this much money.

The Warthog is the top of the line, with metal parts, lots of buttons, and a pricetag to match. Some people have had issues with buttons on the throttle not working and DOA units.

x-65

I have been using a Logitech Extreme 3D Pro @ $29.00 for years, works great.

http://www.cubpilot.com/Tspin/17356.jpg

You will need hotas :!:

And rudder pedals thats all anthng else is waste of money !!

With all the new features more macros are probably going to be needed.

Belkin makes a nice device for such a purpose.
http://www.belkin.com/IWCatProductPa...duct_Id=390404

Depends. After years of flying with stick twist I still have problems with coordinating aileron and rudder if opposite directions are needed. Something I don't have with pedals.

That is my point also HOTAS and pedals ...

It might be a little bit difficult at the beginning but you get absolute immersion

should be made sticky.

Besides force feeback are there any major differences between Microsoft Sidewinder Force Feedback 2 and Precision 2? In terms of precision/accuracy are they the same? How do they compare in accuracy to CH sticks? Thanks.

Both MS Stick do not work correctly under Win7-64, as the drivers are not supported under this OS anymore.
You only can choose between FFB effects OR centering force, but not both.
Alt+Tab ingame may lead to complete loss of feedback.

Sux. :(

I'm using my MS FF2 with Win7 64 and besides not having the configuration app, I haven't really experienced any such issues. It's just application controlled.

I'm still using a microsoft precision pro 2 after more than 10 years.

I recently had some trouble with it so i gave it to a friend to tinker with. He added some adhesive tape between the base and the electronics plate to insulate it from possible short circuits if it touches the metal base, replaced 2-3 button switches that had died along the years and it works like new again, for the cost of buying my buddy a cup of coffee.

There is an amount of noticeable but very slight spiking near the center position after all these years, which results in the twist rudder axis spiking under certain aileron/elevator inputs, but it's so small and predictable that i subconsciously correct for it.
Also, the stick is a bit "floppy" around the center but that is not a problem either as i can use it as a sort of "trim": depending on the direction of torque in the aircraft i'm flying, i just move the stick a little bit to the side and it rests there. It's like having aileron trim for all aircraft and it allows me to fly most of them in cruise with only 2 fingers on the stick.

All in all, very minor issues as far as wear and tear is concerned.

Finally, i'm using it under Win7 x64 and it works fine. There's no force feedback on the precision pro 2, so i don't have any issues with it going floppy if it alt+tab out of the game because it's spring loaded. Also, the amount of buttons is not that great to require a separate piece of profiler software, i just map functions to them from within each game.

If someone wants a cheaper solution with a long life and you can get it for a good price on ebay, i definitely recommend it.

If I'm not mistaken real spit and 109 pilots didnt have HOTAS controllers in the plane.
For realism you should use keyboard short cuts.

Well with what we spend on computers to run these things.. having a good hotas just makes sense. Plus it adds immensely to the immersion.

$4000 computer + $50 stick = Fail

logitech and saitek makes decent 'starter' hotas. They work but, well. The cheaper it is, the cheaper it is. Some of the newer logitech stuff looks pretty interesting.

CH products make pretty good stuff.

Rudder pedals is a no brainer IMHO. with newer games the USB pedals should be just fine. Though Im still partial to my game ported pedals on my cougar.

Thrustmaster is still the one to beat on quality and programability.

I just bought the U2NXT gimbals and hal sensors for my stick, rudder and throttle. Should be a beast when assembled. But uber expensive as well.

The thrustmaster warthog looks awesome. I still prefer the button layout on the cougar throttle, but having a split throttle will be great for twin engine planes. Price is high but we spend that or more on a good video card.

Now I just need a way to attach my second set of thrustmater rudders to go with a warthog. Going to keep my cougar for single engine aircraft and save up for a warthog for twins.

Whatever you get, just get more than a simple cheapo joystick.

This one seems to be very promising http://www.paccus.nl/

I´ve got this reply from them:

"Hello Roberto,

Thank you for your inquiry. We are currently testing the production prototype and trying to get the money from the bank to start production. As you might know, we are a new small company and that makes it difficult to convince a bank to put money in our company. We hope to get funding early February. Than we can start to create the production tools and make the first run. We plan to have the first units available by this summer. The price will be around €450. You could help us by passing on the good news. The more people that are interested in our products, the easier it will get to convince the bank. We will add you to our updates. Thank you again and we sure hope to make you happy in the near future.

Kind regards
The Paccus Team
Bart Sikkens"

I've got the Thrustmaster Hotas X, it's affordable, has options on the throttle aswell as sticktwist for rudder.

Some people say it's not very precise and has a large dead zone, well i think that is a bit exaggerated. But not totally untrue.

It's 49,99 euro

Now i just want TrackIR, but it's just too damn expensive. *looking into Freetrack possibilities.

No money: Keyboard. Look for another hobby.

Bit of money: CH Hotas, last forever, does not look like you're a nerd when it sits in your living room. All bussiness.

Money: Saitek Proflight X65F. Nice kit but hide it when you have visitors. Right of the starship Enterprise. Nerd Alert!

Stupid money: Warthog Hotas. For those of us that don't give a damn. You know it cost's way too much and you should've known better after 2 broken Cougars. Still, it's the best Hotas money can buy of the shelf. You can tell visitors that you tore it out of a real A10. Mucho Macho!

The CH stuff will never break and will become heirlooms. Keep em around for when the Warthog breaks. You'll buy another Warthog but need the CH stuff for the weeks it takes the new Warthog to get to you. Did I tell you the old Cougar units make great paper weights and conversation objects?

So it's real simple CH if you're frugal and want quality. Warthog if you want the best and money is no object.

Less than $100 used.

I’m using TM Warthog with CH pedals. So far no complaints with Warthog, I cannot imagine anything better. Had the CH pedals for years, had to replace one of the pots. The only complaint I have with pedals is spring tension is too weak.

How does an unrealistic controller for a WW2 flight sim improve immersion??
They didnt have hotas in ww2. Maybe a spit with a jet engine would add to immersion to especially when you go full after burner!!

Why would a WW2 pilot, unless he has to due to maneuvering, have both hands on stick?

I think you miss his point. WWII planes often didn't have controls in ergonomic places. Controls were put wherever they fit in the cockpit. The pilot would probably be constantly switching hands on his stick to adjust something on the right and then the left.

So really using a keyboard is more realistic than a hotas.

Exactly!! HOTAS is unrealistic.

I rememer that Douglas Bader often complained about having to take both of his hands off the stick to hit Ctrl + H and Galland often teased the rookies on having to look at the keyboard to make an Umlat.

Fyp :mrgreen:

I'm very happy with my G940, but I wish the FFB could be more progressive, high speed turns give almost no force on stick :(
Hoping it will get better in CoD.

Oleg's not a fan of FFB, but hopefully someone on his team does take the time to implement it a little better than IL-2.

Microsoft Force Feedback 2 is the premiere joystick. Sadly discontinued now but still availible on amazon etc

That's funny, I have the exact same thing and I hate it's guts.

Different strokes for different folks.

I'd just like to lol with Spec Jockey's comments on Galland dissing his rookies.

And a shout-out for the Thrustmaster T1600, if I may: best joystick for south-paws I've ever tried. Some of my retarded, evolutionarily-stunted right-handed friends might like it too.

LOL I still use a Microsoft SideWinder 2.

Still use a MS-FFB2 I purchased something like 6 or 7 years ago now. You have to be very ham-fisted to stall in IL2 with a FFB2.

I must say - it's very very like Microsoft to discontinue one of the few products they made well. (Presumably on the whim of some young straight out of college marketing/accounting graduate) :D

I have an old CH Combat Stick with CH Throttle, both from 1996. They don't work anymore. When they did work, the throttle was way too loose and the stick also was far too loose and light. They also wore out and started flickering nervously.

I have a Logitech 3D Precision Pro or whatever it is called. It is a simple twist joystick. Has a little throttle flap on it. For the price, it is pretty good. Very ergonomic and easy on the hands. Takes up minimal space. Easy to set up. I think it is the ideal starter joystick for someone who is not yet 100% converted into flight sims, or does not have the space, money or effort to set things up.

I have a G940 which I have written extensively about in the past. It is a complete package with stick (force feedback), throttle and rudder pedals. If it did not have the reversal bug, it would be a great package. But currently, all axes have that reversal bug except the joystick X/Y and it takes a lot of fun (and precision) out of flying. Rudder is a disaster to try to use with any accuracy what so ever. The reversal bug makes the rudder behave so that, let's say you are using a bit of rudder to aim at something or keep a certain course - the moment you think "I put a little bit too much rudder, so I'll gently ease off it", it makes a BIG jump in the opposite direction rather than easing off. And when you think "oh xxxx, that's too much" and apply a bit more, it makes a jump right back. The whole airplane is violently shaking its nose to the left and right due to these large sudden inputs and you swear in frustration. It is nothing what so ever like real mechanical linkage - it is the exact opposite of it - like some force is strongly boosting the movements you do, but only when you change direction from one to the other.

The force feedback is supremely awesome and I really don't want to go back to a joystick without that. It gives actual feedback of what is going on and things just feel so much more alive. Some people who fly in reality say it doesn't really make things more realistic, but the same can be said about force feedback steering wheels (which I also have, and since I have actually raced cars I have something to compare to). Most of the feeling in reality is felt in the body, being pulled and shaken around. The steering wheel (and I guess airplane stick) is less than this. But it is there. Mainly the looser and tighter stick when going different speeds - buffeting and how it losens totally in stalls, violent shakes while on the ground or when flying with gears down on final approach (then the stick is very loose and at the same time rocking around - it feels scary!)

In IL-2 it takes a bit of adjusting to get the force feedback to work properly, at the right speeds, range of stick throw and stuff like that. They tightened up the force feedback a lot (as users requested) in the firwmare upgrade in May 2010 but quite a few people didn't properly set up their FF settings and were asking how to go back to the old firmware.

If I wasn't stuck with my G940, I would today choose the Thrustmaster Warthog and buy separate pedals. Much more expensive than the G940 but the feel of it and probably quality should be much higher. The G940 has been a major headache for me and I'm still unhappy how Logitech hasn't bothered fixed the major bugs of it. All they need to do is to remove the reversal bug and it would be great fun. They might get around to it. Or they might not.

That's totally correct. To me it feels so stiff. Very reliable and well made for a lower priced stick though. The quality of it is excellent. I'm just too feeble I guess :)

I have the old Microsoft FFB2 wich is a cheap sure thing. I'm looking for a perfect merge of all the G940 functionalities and the Warthog quality... doesn't exist i guess, as the CH products don't feel as good as they look like (and personally i would like a WW2 time dedicated product, but perfect for it so perfect for THE new Il-2 series...)

+ 1 !

But did they fly in such warbirds, and in such war conditions... Personally, all the vet books i read talk about what the dogfighters were feeling in their stick, and it often was awesome !.. Some of them died because weren't able to work on the stick at 700 or 800 km/h and the earth was growing...
What car did you race ? :) I don't understand your feeling about the comparison FFB wheel/real driving : maybe you drive with modern cars that are a lot more nice to make turn, but personally i'm only interested in classic cars, and all are quite hard to drive, and my G25 with latest drivers and max FFB is really close to the reality, even if it's never perfect obviously. But it's pretty much better than without !!!
By the way, do you know "Power and Glory" ? (an improved mix of GTL and GTR2... a wonderful thing, and the 3.0v released is close !)

Yes, it's always the most difficult to do to get a good sim with a FFB. And we often are waiting years before the constructors give us some really good firmwares that allow us to set nicely all this stuff !

Please, could you explain me what exactly is this problem ??? I really don't understand : how a major constructor could produce such a thing and let it with such a stupid prob ?? I don't see exactly what it is, and how could it be possible. I'm very concerned, because i tought buying this one maybe just after the CoD release..

Welcome to the Wacky World of Logitech. Mine is back in the box for now.

See this post and the next
Yeah. Good question. Very good question.

I will stick with my x52 STD (better then my Pro since magnet mod IMO). Some love them some hate them. Some last minutes, others years but once the guarantee is up you are 'stuffed' - no service or parts from Saitek.

They are huge and had no where to fit my KB on my desk, the upside is you never have to use the KB again. The downside is your stick buttons are now providing functions that could be accessed using the keyboard - the buttons are simply going to be overworked and fail. Keyboards are a lot cheaper than a X52 HOTAS ......I use a mini Zippy KB. Works great for me!


[IMG]http://i626.photobucket.com/albums/t...th_hotaswp.jpg[/IMG]

Ok, thanks for the link.
It's really so stupid ! Isn't it just a software problem ? Ouch... :(

Yes. Rumour has it that Logitech introduced this to prevent the user noticing the potentiometers wearing out (after the usual 1 million movements) - by already being used to this behaviour. Support for the rumour would be (a) that the Reversal Bug does result in a similiar behaviour and (b) that Logitech fixed it for the x- and y-axes on the stick, those being the only two axes with Hall sensors.

However: There are two software workarounds created by users: MultiThrottle by MikkOwl and YaDeLi by me.

Edit: missing 'the' before 'only two axes'

Artist

And about replace these potentiometers used by Logitech G940 (probably same cheap ones used in 3DPRO) for good quality one, like Bourns, Spectrol?
Ie, these sold by L.Bodnar (you find better prices in online stores.

Or, even with good pots these "reverse"bug still?

I see G940 in overall better appropriated for prop sim than Warthog - due many rotaries.

Sokol1

Sokol1,

It's not the potentiometers, its the firmware in the stick that creates the Reversal Bug... You could build in Hall sensors (as I will one of these days) and it would not change anything.

The only way is what others and I did: bypass the Logitech controller and firmware by connecting the potentiometers to a different controller (such as BU0836X)...

I do not know the Warthog - knowing in the sense of having flown with it - but after I modded my G940 as described above I am without warranty but quite happy with it: feels good and I wouldn't miss the forcefeedback for the world (even learned something about electronics on the way).

Artist

Unbelievable !!! :( Are they so stupid ?!

You're more and more interesning !!! :o :-) :-P

Do you think it could be possible to get this nice things somewhere ? :rolleyes:
If, i could intend a G940 buy and try it during a safe commercial period and if it really doesn't work, then cancel my purchase... ;)

Searching the forum for Multi-Throttle and YaDeLi could possibly supply an answer?

Anyway:
Multi-Throttle
YaDeLi

But beware! Both do no wonders... They successfully help on the Throttle axes, but both do not really solve it on Rudder and Trims: 100-0-100 axes are more difficult to un-reversal-bug than 0-100 axes.

Most of those owners of a G940 I know ended up modding it as I did.

Thanks, Artist ! :)

Very interesting thread.

I am still running XP on my old PC, and using Microsoft Force Feedback 1 joystick (yes, I bought it to play with MS Combat Flight Simulator 1, a few years ago...). This joystick is fine for me.

I am pretty convinced that I will need a new PC to run CoD, so this new PC will run Win7 64 bits, and as far as I could see, it will not support my stick.

I really want a force feedback stick, and I was planning to invest in the G940, but after reading this thread I will probably wait until a real fix is found for the Reversal bug for all axis, before spending some money on that stick, and/or keep investigating on a way to have my current stick working under Win7 64 bits.

By the way, is anyone aware of any work around to have the MS FFB 1working (with force feedback) in Win7 64 bits ?
In my current system, it is plugged on the game port of an old Sound Blaster Live! sound card that I use only for that purpose since my motherboard has an integarted sound Blaster Live 24bit chipset that I use for sounds.

Unfortunately, the Sound Blaster Live! card will not be supported by win7 64 bits as far as I could see.

NO! Gameporte only work in Win7/32 bits version - no official support from M$, use with Daniel K. drivers.

Sokol1

Thank you for the answer Sokol1.

From what you say gameport is not supported in win7 64-bit, correct ?
Is that because no manufacturer took the time to developp the drivers needed, or because of some kind of software or hardware incompatibility that cannot be solved ?

No way the Daniel K. drivers can work with Win7 64-bits ?

From what I could see on the web, my sound blaster live! card is not in the list of the supported cards on the Daniel K. drivers. The closest match could be the Sound blaster live! 24bit that is supported, but no idea if my card would work with this driver.

I don't really care about having the sound card itself working, all I need is the gameport up and running so my MS FFB1 works (with force feedback working).

Another question for the Artist : do you think it would be possible to apply to my MS FFB1 the same kind of mod that you applied to your G940 (the "BU0836-LC of Leo Bodnar" mod). so that the native gameport connection could be replaced by a USB connection (with force feedback still active) ?

Although I am afraid of the risk of screwing up my MS FFB1 by this kind of hardware 'surgery', it might help me get rid of the gameport support limitations in win7 64 bit, if it worked properly.

http://www.elektro-planet.com/shop/c...s/8515-usb.jpg

:cool:

@ Feuerfalke

it looks effectively more simple, but I've read somewhere that with that kind of adapter, the stick is working, but without force feedback, which is even worse than a standard joystick (in my opinion).

At least this kind of adapter works with Win XP 32bits, but for Win 7 64 bits, I am not sure.

I am trying to get the best of both worlds : MS FFB1 with force feedback and Win 7 64 bits

Hello PatBig,

Unfortunately not: BU0836s know nothing about FFB.

Sorry,
Artist

As Artist already posted, you can't keep FFB with an I/O-chip either. So this is definitely the cheaper alternative.

If you want FFB and a modern OS, you should check out the Logitech 940.

Since the question gameport X 64 bits OS (Vista and Seven) date from Vista launch an no solution come, I think is lost of time insist in try... Only Daniel K work with this issue - and under pressure from Creative to forget this matter...

Feuerfalke,

Gameport USB adapter dont work well for M$ FF PRO - this stick use MIDI pins from gameport too.
These adapters are design for joysticks that are standard at time: CH Fligstick and Thrustmaster FCS.

Every with CH F-16 Combatstick (gameport) - that are more simple - you loose some buttons.

The only option (that I know) to use M$ FF PRO in USB is a old DIY circuit based in ATMEGA MCU - but only return to center force work, all others FF effect are lost.

http://212.1.43.18/detlef/jpgs/Board2.jpg
http://212.1.43.18/detlef/jpgs/Board3.jpg
http://www.descentbb.net/viewtopic.php?t=7090
http://grendel.koolbear.com/3dpro.htm
http://translate.google.com/translat...hp%3Ft%3D52842

PatBit,

I think that your best option is go to eBay an pick one M$ FF 2 USB. ;)

Sokol1

Does that mean that you lost the force feedback on your G940 when you modded it ?

Well in that case, I'd rather go for something more up to date. My intention was to upgrade to a G940, but buying such an expensive stick and not being able to aim correctly at my targets because of the reversal bug is something I just wouldn't be able to stand. So I'll probably wait until Logitech (or anyone else) fix this for all axxis.

I feel really frustrated about having a perfectly working stick and not being able to use it just because Microsoft did not bother respecting the common standards and/or providing an alternative solution when upgrading their operating system.

Thank you for your help anyway.

I would purchase the rudder pedals but I have'nt figured a way to attach them to my recliner in the reclined position.:confused:

No, BU0836 is for "drive" throttle, rudder and rotaries axis - in these still used pots (someone say 0,10U$ ones...), since Logitech firmware induce error in this axis - see what Artist say above. He say that every change this pots for better ones or HALL sensor dont cure "reverse bug".

X and Y axis - that already use Melexis 3D HALL sensor (contact less) - still using Logitech circuit, so you no lost FF efects, that work only in this two axis.

The question is: in FF stick dont exist nothing better than M$ FF2:
http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=18562

:)

Sokol1

Right: That is exactly what the problem is and how I and others modded the G940: Kept the Hall-sensored x- and y-axis of the stick on the Logitech controller (Logitech fixed the reversal Bug on those) and connected all other axes to B0836(A or X). That way we do have FFB and all axes precise...

From what I've read, this seem to be correct - never read a bad opinion o the MS-FFB2. The G940 could have been a more than worthy follower, but as of now it is usable only if you take it apart and start soldering - thereby loosing all warranty... I choose this path and am quite happy. Next step will be replacing potentiometers with Hall-sensors :grin:

@ Artist

Question : did you solve the X an Y axes reversal bug through the new firmware produced by Logitech, or did you do get rid of the bug by using your Software YaDeLi or Multi-Throttle ?

@ Artist & Sokol1

No matter how good the M$ FF2 is, it does not have rudder pedals, Dual throttle and programmable switches. This is also what I am looking for.

By the way, is the M$ FF2 working fine under Win 7 64-bits ?

I read on the Logitech forum that hope is not totally gone for Logitech to fix the reversal bug for all the remaining axes presenting the bug. It is mentionned that they are working on it

With the current firmware I didn't experience the reversal bug on the stick.

AFAIK reversal bug dont affect G940 X and Y axis.

Since you whant dual throttle and Force Feedback, the only choice is G940...

Sokol1

PatBig,

The new firmware published in December 2010 reduces the Reversal Bug on the stick's x- and y-axes to a neglectible quantitiy (down to 0.3% from above 3.0%) - It therefore was neither necessary to connect those sensors to the BU0836 nor to redirect the output via YaDeLi (or Multithrottle). *All* other axes still have the Reversal Bug and I do not see hope concerning Logitech (see the threads there).

@ Sokol1: Why not combining a MS FFB 2 with pedals and throttles from simped, ch-products, saitek, et al? Which one is a question of quality vs. costs...

Artist

I've always used the same joystick as well. It is a good joystick but one thing is annoying, it is almost impossible to turn the stick without accidentally twisting it at the same time (and moving rudder).

Maybe I have to get foot pedals and somehow disable the control of rudder from the joystick.

well best stuff IMHO:
new:
- budget friendly: Thrustmaster T16000M
- a bit pricey: CH Fighterstick and CH throttle
- expensive: Thrustmaster Warthog HOTAS

used:
force feedback: MS Sidewinder force feedback 2 pro + X52/pro throttle (can be found on ebay etc.)

without force feedback: MS Sidewinder precision 2 (or used T16000M if you find one)

Pedals (from best to "worst"):
1) Simped F16 USB
2) Simped Vario USB pro
3) Saitek Combat pedals
4) Saitek pro flight pedals/CH pedals

X52 is actually a really good stick once you have it modded. More accurate than even the legendary MSFFB2.

If you don't mind a little bit of work, get it second hand/refurbished and you have yourself a really nice and cheap set of HOTAS.

What sacrilege :rolleyes:

I made a typo..calm down...geez...Its corrected now.....btw Thrustmaster and their shity gimbals on original Cougar are legendarly infamous...and thats not the whole story...

Microsoft SideWinder Precision 2 here, going on 10 years now. I should have bought 2. I have no idea what I would get if it stopped working. I've looked at nearly every joystick that has come out since, and always find something I don't like compared to it.

oh, and works perfectly on Win 7 64 bit.