G940 bugs sorted out???
 

I am on the verge of getting a new HOTAS setup.. I have CH pedals, CH stick and X45 throttle.
Pedals and throttle are really fallaing apart soon and I need a new setup;

I have been looking into the G940 system and for the amount of dough u seem to get quite a complete setup (Thrustmaster is over my budget with no rudders.)

However I have followed the reversal bug discussion on the G940 for awhile.... is it sorted or is it still there?

Well the histeresis is still there ( except X/Y joystick) , next step is a software/firmware release so we have to wait

so throttle and pedals are still screwed up??
Stick I can live with as I still have my CH...

well, maybe I am some lucky user - but nothing is screwed up with my G940. I fly Il-2 4.10, FC2, Black SHark without any rudder/throttle problems.

I also dont have any issue, just they could work better. But now they work great! ;)

The stick does not move as smoothly as a MSFF2 with an annoying tendency for reistance to rise and then suddenly fall, as though the mechanism had some tiny foreign objects stuck in it. This can make precise control difficult.

from my point of view with the new beta firmware the stick is very precise.

All axis of the stick except x/y still have the reversal glitch. Precise when moving in one direction, if direction is reversed, there is a gap of around 3%.
e.g.
Moving up from 30 to 31% is precise, moving down from 31% firstly nothing happens then a jump to 28% is made.

This i a major glitch when trying to control 2 motors independendly or if trying to find correct trim settings of rudder etc.

Up to now to solutions to solve it:
Use of MikkOwl Multithrottel Tool
Modding the G940 with e.g. Bu368 Joystick Chipset.

hmm for that amount of cash I would not expect to start modding it directly from the box... if there is such a gap still, I think I just have to pass for the time beeing...

Well, there two issues with the G940:

Issue 1 are the malcontacts in the throttle. Symptom: When you move the right(!) throttle, the axes R1 and R2 kind of jitter. Cause: The throttle movement stretches the cable inside and faulty signals a created in the lines of R1 and R2. Fix: Exchange the G940 repeatetly at Logitech, or fix it yourself (as I did - thereby loosing all warranty).

Issue 2 is the so called Reversal Bug. It still exists on all axes (all 3 trims, rudder, throttle, R1, R2) except the stick x and y. You can live with that (I can't) or fix it creativly (as he did - and me, too)

After these modifications I am - seriously, no joke - really happy with the G940. I love its grip, the force feedback, its solidity.

Artist

a 3% jump is definitely no "major" glitch, more a minor glitch and shurely less than the mechanical linkage in RL had!!!
I've read many reports where bomber pilots told that they fiddeled quite a time to synchronize the engines.
On the other side the german bomber pilots during the BoB intentionally desynchronized their engines to add some difficulty for the acoustic direction finding attempts of the brits.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AzYoi...&feature=feedu

here you go, this is the issue I have on my throttle. throw all the video i only move the thortles, look how all the other axis just dance around. there is even a bit where i only move 1 throtle and the other has a spike too.


cheers

the new firmware and driver update didn't work for you?

[QUOTE=pupo162;220242

here you go, this is the issue I have on my throttle. throw all the video i only move the thortles, look how all the other axis just dance around. there is even a bit where i only move 1 throtle and the other has a spike too.


cheers[/QUOTE]

I just tested it, doesn't happen with my stick. I've heard that some units may have cables stuck in the throttle, so when you move it it creates the spikes.

As i have my 4th G940 now, i am shure thats the cable in the throttle unit!
As you might still have warranty -> get a new G940.
Apart from those Problems i love this stick, and the last one i've got even has a little stop in the middle of rudder and aileron trim.

Bingo!

There is also a 'spike' in the rudders that may be related to or the same as the reversal bug.. Thanks for the link to the reversal bug fix.. Good ol Leo and his BU0836!

http://www.leobodnar.com/

I used his BU0836A (12bit) USB board at work to build a few force sticks (not force feedback but force sensing like the new Satic stick) that work great! Only problem is it will show up as a separate joystick.. but what with all the problems with the G940 that may be the only way to go.. Has to be the worst joystick I have ever bought.. I did do you issue 1 fix and it helped a lot but R1 and R2 still get a little noise when I move the throttle but nothing like it was at the start.. My fear is as time goes by it will get worse again.. If it does Ill most likely port it over to the BU0836A or trash the whole thing and make my own.. Long story short (too late) if your not savvy with regards to taking things apart and messing with wires and/or you don't have a lot of free time on your hands.. STAY AWAY FROM THE G940! It is the worst $300 I have ever spent on PC game hardware

Not one bit!

It was a joke IMHO in that the newest firmware focus was on the XY of the joystick itself.. Which I have yet to see anyone complane about.. the issue with the G940 from day one was the R1 and R2 noise and the reversal bug on all axis/sliders other than the XY of the main joystick.. And it took them months to come out with that.. So yes maybe some day the G940 will be fixxed.. but at the rate they are going it will be years before they even realise the real issue people are having with thie $300 joystick let alone come out with a firmware fix for it

Didn't happen.. or should I say I didn't notice it right away either.. But as so many noted at the Logitec forums as time goes by and as you use it more and more the symptom apears for all.. In that it takes some time for those so called stuck cables to come loose and wa-la you will get the noisy R1 and R2 and reversals.. Just give it time ;)

The Reversal Bug has IMHO nothing to do with the cable in the right throttle (trims, rudder have it, too). Rumors(!) have it, that the behaviour we know as Reversal Bug was implemented on purpose: Potientiometers wear out over time (1 million turns...) and being already used to this behaviour from the start, you wouldn't notice... That could be the reason they fixed it for stick x and y (Hall sensors!) but not for other axes. But as said: This is a rumour.

I am quite happy with having redirected throttle and rudder via a BU0836A (R1 and R2 to follow on my next day off, trims already external).

Artist

I had exactly this error on my G940, the right throttle messed up R1 and R2 (mine was bought 1.5 years ago on the release day so version 1.000 I guess?). Just today I got my substitution unit from Logitech support and it does not have the problem at all. Their support where awesome actually. As a compensation for my problems I got a rebate of 50% to buy whatever I wanted from their web shop. Really boring that I had got the G27 wheel for Christmas as the rebate would have been great there as it's rather pricey ;) Instead I got myself a G510 to substitute my old G15 for half the price...

EDIT: After the fw 1.42 the joystick feels more precise, I have never noticed the reversal bug on my throttle or pedals that feel fine to me...

Agreed I don't think it is the cabling.. the cabling that was causing the R1 and R2 noise.. I am surprised to hear they used pots instead of encoders or hall sensors.. but that would explain why the BU0836 analog inputs worked with these sensors.. Leo does some filtering on the analog inputs so even if you had a 'spike' it would be filtered out.. Why Logi can't do the same in their firmware is beyond me in that it is 'standard' practice to do so with most analog inputs to A2Ds.. Not sure what or why they would impliment in firmware a reversal when using pots.. makes no since really.. Thus I would leave that in the rumor column.. More likly is it is a typical pot spike that spikes in voltage in a direction oposite of what your currently at and thus apears to be a reversal of sort

Yeah you cant go wrong with Leo's stuff.. everyone uses his stuff.. Ill have to look but I seem to recal him having a board that would convert the hall sensor outputs to analog inputs on his board.. if so I would dump all the Logi electronics and go full Leo!

Same here

Impressive in that in the Logi forums we can not even get the Logi reps to admit there is a problem let alone replace the product.. Can you expand on who you called and or e-mail to get a replacement? In that I know a few folks, myself included, that would love to exchange it for a new one that they may have addressed the issues on.. But in light of the fact that they have made no mention of fixing any issues in newer versions I suspect you will see the problems return with usage

The few that I did see try in the forums got a very cold response from the Logi reps.. Such that my thoughts on it would be to wait until they do fix the problem, if ever, and simply order a new one and the day I receive it I will simply swap my old one for the new one and return it for a refund.. I know I know but in light of the treatment we got from the Logi reps in the Logi forums this was a last resort method to get justice

Price. Economy. Halls only for stick x and y (FFB :grin:)...

He does? Didn't know. Didn't see - yet...

Those spikes are way too big - and just imagine: We would not notice them until the cable really brakes - after warranty has expired...

Maybe... When I fix R1 and R2 I could test a high quality poti on the logitech controller... and report here :)

Just went to his website: All but his main page report 404. Obviously he's reconstructing... IIRC *all* his board BU0836, A , and X support the A1302KUA-T Hall sensors directly. I've just ordered some. We'll see.

Artist

As laws differ a lot between countries regarding warranty responsibility etc I guess that the US response may differ from Sweden where I got my response through the normal mail support at first via the Logitech Sweden support site? In Sweden we have two years of warranty for the G940, but In the US I think it's only one year? A lot of these issues may be caused by local laws I guess?

Normally US customer rights are considered "overpowered" over here so I'm surprised that you get treated worse over there in an issue like this ;) From what I heard Cessna had to stop making single engine aircraft due to US lawsuits whenever some stupid pilot crasched for forgetting to remove rudder locks etc ;)

Maybe Logitech USA knows that one precedential case may give them a storm of replacements? :)

EDIT: And to not cause any false hopes I was first offered 35% discount at the Logitech Shopping site but as the G510 had a rather high price there compared to web shops I managed to get through the 50% discount (which was valid for any product though).

EDIT2: I have previously been in contact with Logitech support for my Harmony remote and they where awesome that time too, they went way beyond what anyone could demand... During a week they uploaded different configurations to get the remote to work with an "unsupported" input on my TV which was really SONY:s fault. The last time the support rep called I asked her what the noise in the background was and she answered that she was on her way home from work on the subway (above ground in the suburbs) and wanted to hear all worked out for me... Wow...

where do i get hold of 1 of these BU0836X card's?

ah thats why i cant find it:

http://www.mycockpit.org/forums/show...0836X?p=115853

Normally here, but on the sub-pages your get 404 error this moment.
Try tomorow.
http://www.lbodnar.dsl.pipex.com/

I thought I read something on it too.. but.. I seem to recall HALL sensors putting out a pulse like an encoder.. Thus you need something to read/count/monitor the pulses.. Where as BU0836 boards only have analog inputs.. I had a few email exchanges with Leo and actually got the data sheet on the PIC controller he uses on his boards.. I can not remember if Leo added the filtering or if it was a standard feature on the PIC controller he uses.. I got all my notes on it at work and I am at home today so if needed I could look it up on Monday

Saw that his site was down..

http://www.leobodnar.com/

Hope he didn't go out of business!! In that we had planes on building about 25 more of the force sensing sticks

EDIT I looked up that A1302KUA-T.. it is a IC package that has an analog out so yeah that would work as an input to the BU0836.. But I think you will still need to read/count/monitor the pulses? Do you know if this is that the HALL sensor used in the G940?

I actually thought that I had finally found a joystick to replace my MSFF2, after the new drivers, and firmware fixed the reversal bug. After flying with the G940 for a month or so I got tired of trying to fine tune the centering tension and forcefeedback, and reinstalled my MSFF2 joystick, Cougar Throttle, and Saitek Pro Rudders. I was immediately surprised how much smoother and more accurate my old system is than the G940. The G940 electrical gears are really course, and the software to control the center tension and forcefeedback are also alittle flaky.

I'd try the new hydraulic joystick that is being developed now, but it looks like crap.

thanx guys for all your input. Even though I would love this set, it seems to me that there is a risk I have to wrestle with the gear, or with Log support... considering the cost, I think I'll pass...

Actually I have no clue where to go to now.. The Hog and the X65 is way too expensive as I won't get any peds.... hmm I have to think hard about it.

I've had my G940 since release and don't have any spike issues. Been yanking and banking about 4 nights a week and still no problems.

The thing that i dont think il like about the x65 is that the stick doesnt actually move which would be very weird if you ask me:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7oi4jmCib6k

I just love my G940... I think the reversal bug in the thottle and pedal axis is just academic. You will not notice it if you don't really try to... I have never noticed it and I'm rather picky. How often do you really slowly apply rudder in one direction and then really slowly apply it in the other direction? And notice that small error? Last night I flew a bunch of bomber missions which I have done lately (getting old?) using Thors bombing guide (as usual) that requires you to set the throttle at 80%, and I have not noticed that reversal bug while doing that so when should I then do it accept if I really want to find it?

where did u buy it ?? Webhallen?

ACE-OF-ACES,

That would be nice...
About the G940 I do not know...

I checked Leo's site again (it's still disabled) and found a comment of him in some other forum (mentioned in an earlier poste here): His employee left him, he's on a project, so he won't take orders he's not able to process speedely enough...

Anyway: In *his* forum he once gave instructions for the A1302KUA-T:
and the two illustrating pictures from that post

Artist

Interesting..

Now it has been.. what.. 8 years since I used a hall sensor on one of our motor drives at TRW (now Northrop) so I am going off my already bad memory.. But I seem to recall the hall sensor not putting out a linear voltage range.. it put out a pulse each time the hall sensor passed by the magnet on the drive shaft, which in turn caused the output of the hall sensor to pulse.. But.. if the shaft did not completely turn (360) and the hall hall sensor remained in the magnetic field of the magnet at all times.. say the shaft only moved a few degrees +/- than I guess you would get a linear voltage output of the hall sensor.. that must be how they are doing it.. Which in turn would remove the need to monitor/count the 'pulsees' each time the shaft turned 360

Make since now in that the XY shafts of the joystick do not turn 360 degrees but just a few degrees

If that is the case than we could totally dump the Logi junk electronics and go full BU0836!!

WOOT!

That's just it, it is NOT a 'small error' it is a 'big reversal spike error'

Such that when your moving your rudders (fast or slow does not mater) say to the left you will get a sudden spike to the right as if you kick full right rudder, which in turn makes the nose of your plane wag back and forth and thus messing up the shot you were trying to line up with a little rudder to the left.

As for not noting it now, keep your fingers crossed and enjoy it while you can in that I did not notice it much at first either, but with time the problem showed up and only go worse with time/usage.

A force stick is not the most historic/realistic stick you will ever use (unless you fly modern jet sims where modern jets like the F16 use force stick) but it is probably the most accurate stick you will ever use. The way it works is the stick senses the force you apply, where as other sticks sense how far you have moved the stick. It takes a little getting use to but once you do it is pretty nice, I have not tried the Satic stick, but we do have some military force sticks where I work and they use them to fly F4 phantom drones, me personally though I like the historic/realistic aspect of the standard sticks

Nope, PC Doctorn had the best price back when it was released so I bought it there but I don't recommend them for a bunch of reasons (start with the name? ;))

OK, It may be that haven't used it that much then? Since I bought it 1.5 years ago I guess I don't have more than 20-30 flight hours on it... Kids, wife, work and those darn friends stop my rightfully deserved sim time all the time :)

That or you just one of the lucky ones.. One thing you should do is bring up the calibration routine like pupo162 did in his video of the throttle where he was showing the R1 & R2 noise when moving the RHS throttle (on page 2) than do the same for your rudder and than move them and watch for the spike.. It is visable on mine.. If nothing more than a data point.. than check it again in a month or so and see if you notice it getting worse with time

Just tested it with a BI0836X, a A1302KUA-T and two magnets: Works beautifully from 0 to 100% and 50% when the magnets are both out of reach.
Not really :(: I want to keep Force Feedback, so stick x and y must be fed via Logitech electronics... Which brings me to another issue concerning the combination of Il-2, G940 and (possibly several) BU0836... I'll soon open another thread because I need advice, help, ideas here...

I agree. That must be it. The Reversal Bug (on stick y and x) prevented any serious formation flying and aiming. That is now fixed by Logitech. The Reversal Bug in the Rudder (3-4%) still makes formation flying and aiming difficult. The Reversal Bug in the throttle and proppitch (throttle, R1 or R2, 3%) makes formation flying difficult. My spikes started appearing after 40-60 flight hours (on both sets - returned the first, modded the second)...

With my modding I am now quite happy.

Artist

Yes, many posts so I guess you did not read mine saying that my 1.5 year old set had bad spikes on R1 and R2 like pupo162:s when moving the right stick. Noticed it as 4.10 brought the axis for radiator which I assigned to R1 that I hadn't used yet and thats when I got confused. Had not used R1 and R2 before so I don't know if the error was there from start ;) I got my replacement last week and it has no problems on any axis (have tried the pedals for a long time in the windows setup dialog, fast or slow but they move like on rails in the calibrate dialog - which goes for the throttle to - nice steady axis with no spikes at all). Maybe they have fixed it as this set is brand new? I cannot find any manufacture date on it - anyone knows it there are different hardware revisions and how to see that?

EDIT: My old set had the P/N 842-000002 - and the new one has 842-000004. Could that indicate some change? What do you guys have?

A note to any new G940 users that may read this. DO NOT forget to calibrate the throttle and joystick in the windows device dialog like we did in the old days. The throttle axis, R1,R2, the three trim wheels and the mini stick NEED calibration or otherwise they will not work good and act weird. This is especially noticeable on the throttle axis!

Real aircraft controls aren't that precise at all - you would be surprised how many reversal bugs are on real aircraft. A good pilot can adjust his flying accordingly and fly with anything.

You might have a point there :grin:... I have no idea. I am sim only.

But (a small, humble 'but'): Imprecision of controls is one thing (i.e. slack in cables, elasticity, etc.) and a software in a 'fly by wire' system, which wrongly interpretes what you want (i.e. trimming elevator "..., 51%, 52%, 53% - oh! too much - and trying to go back to 52% gives you 49% and trying to compensate that gives you 53% again, and so on, back and forth) is something different.

I just hated that. Felt like an idiot trying to keep alongside...

Artist

I'm not quite sure that some of you guys understand when the reversal bug really is.

These two videos demonstrate it. The first one is recent and shows the reversal bug on the R2 trim axis of the throttle. The second video is old before the 12/2010 firmware update:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZlUWwOJUN0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xiwyBM7PXEo

Has the "new" stick still been behaving properly? I have been considering one of these and am hoping that Logitech will fix the wiring that's causing the rotary spiking

Wait...?!

Are you saying that when you increase the throttle SLOWLY in IL2 1946...
...it does NOT jump 1-3? (but instead goes in smooth 1% increments)

Are you saying that when you SLOWLY reverse the throttle in IL2 1946...
...it does NOT jump 2-6%? (but instead goes back the single 1%)


When I started out, I thought my bad aim at high speeds were due to
my lacking skills... I did not realize that there was a quite major flaw
in the G940 compounding the problem. While the reversal bug has been
fixed for the X/Y axis on the stick(via a firmware update which is all but
easy to find), ALL other analogues still have this glitch. While not a big
thing for a newbie, it WILL annoy the HECK out of you as you improve.

What is worse, is that Logitech has been working on a fix for this since
they released the stick. Furthermore they give close to no feedback on
what the plans/schedules are. So, don't count on the rest of the axis
being fixed.

The really appalling flaw of the G940 is that one of the cables going from
the buttons on throttle to its base, are 1cm too short and made from
a brittle material. Meaning after about 4-6 months of use, you will start
seeing R1&R2 jitter as you move the throtte(and thus the cables) back
and forth. While this is not hard to fix, it is a defect by design.


In short...
- The G940 is overprised!
- Has a design flaw which WILL break the throttle automatically.
- Has a bug which remains un-fixed after 2 years.
- The profiler(which binds the keys etc) is adequate at best, but actually rather "sub par"
- There is close to NO information from Logitech and they are SLOW to produce Software.
+ The Logitech phone support is very professional and serviceminded.
+ The only HOTAS FFB stick on the market.
+ Once you figure out how to fix the wires in the throttle, it is a sturdy piece of EQ.
+ Once you resign to throttle frenetically up and down to get to specific percentages
or RPMs, the reversal bug on the throttle is nothing more than a constant inconvenience.

Great video examples, thanks for the information. I can imagine that would be a nightmare to work with!

Cheers, MP

Moderators... Troll alert!


Arrow...
What does real life controls have to do with a piece of equipment for a computer?!
Would you accept the mouse jumping 3-4 cm on your screen whenever you reversed direction?

+ Or: Once you bought and conncted two of Leo Bodnar's controllers to throttle, rudder, breakes, wheels, and trims (=10 axes), you can be quite happy with it - I am...

Artist

Yammo, thanks for sharing your experience... I've been looking at the logitech for a couple of months now and have read about a gazillion review that all pretty much say the same thing, that is other than the reversal bug and the r1-r2 spiking people are generally happy with the controller.

I have been flying various flight sims for ages now with an X-45 (no rudder pedals) that is starting to feel like it's going to die. Trying to find a replacement for the thing is becoming very frustrating. The x-52pro seems to be out of production or at least unavailable in Canada. I can pick one up through Amazon.com but am familiar enough with Saitek's lack of consistency that I want a local store to return the thing to. With the twist grip I would still have to buy rudder pedals.

The Logitech seems pricey if it doesn't work, but in reality it's the best priced controller out there. The only other real alternative that's not decades old is the TM warthog, or the Saitek X65f and my flight simming is more of a play for a few months, then move on to something else for a while. Certainly nowhere near hardcore enough to justify the $600 price tag or $400 for the X65f and then still have to buy pedals.

I noticed that Mazex got a new part number with his replacement G940 and I'm really hoping that Logitech has fixed the rotary spiking. I can live with the reversal bug in the throttle and rudder because quite honestly, for my style of flying I can live with it. I've never fussed about that kind of precision.

Have had mine for more than a year now and it still works perfectly.

At least for the throttle and the R1 and R2 - wheels in IL-2 Sturmovik (not in CloD!) you could use YaDeLi to lessen the effect (it does not work so well for rudder and trims)

I posted a write up HERE for the mod I just did to my G940. It also shows how to fix the throttle wiring issues.

Thanx mate

I still haven't decided what to do... I WILL not pay that amount of dough for a rig I need to mod the sec I buy it. Besides I am a lousy technician... I only dared to mod my x45 cuz I had too many gin and tonics at the time....

I was really considering the G940, but as far as I can see, nothing has been done to the throttle.. for me this is a dealbreaker as I fly a LOT in tight formation..

I think I just might get a x52, keep my CH stick which I love, and buy myself a pair of the new Saitek Combat rudders..

sorry Logitech.. precision is a key factor for me....

When I bought my G940 about 13 months ago I found it on sale at amazon for US$199 with free shipping. I would *NOT* have paid US$300+ for it. I knew of its problems beforehand and I was hoping that the problem either wasn't bad enough to be an issue with me or that Logitech was VERY CLOSE to fixing it.

I was wrong on both accounts. The reversal bug (hysteresis) was much worse than I had thought and Logitech is no closer to a fix that when I bought it! (although the 12/2010 firmware update was refreshing to see)

I guess if I was a "yank and banker" I wouldn't notice it but my flying style is more about precision. I had heard of other people using Leo Bodnar's BU0836 board to modify the G940 but could find very little information on exactly how to do so which is why I created the write up about it at this location:

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=23950

After doing this mod which cost me about US$50 total I love my G940 once again! The mod CAN be done a lot cheaper if you have a donor joystick and are able to use its electronics in lieu of the BU0836 board. I also see no need to purchase the more precise, more expensive BU0836A board for this application. I'm not even sure the cheap potentiometers that Logitech uses would be precise enough to play well with the BU0836A!