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Multi core processor support in CoD
With multi core CPU's being made for some time and relatively inexpensive, is CoD designed to take advantage of it?
This is more then asking generic system specs, but some performance detail, since Intel now makes several versions of its iSeries chips in dual and quad core. And then AMD has tri-core. (If this was asked before I have not seen it.) A bit of a different question, is it the publisher (UBI) deciding on the system specs and not 1C? If it was 1C, wouldn't they have said it already? |
no multicore support, they were too busy working on DX8 support.
Sorry, I know I'm not funny. Yes there will be multicore support. I believe it's been confirmed (search). Expect system specs will be given to Ubi by 1C but as the game isn't finished and 1C are doing heavy optimisations they can't give specs till it's done. I think (not 100%) but the last few weeks and months the Devs spend bug fixing, optimising like crazy and this is usually when they can lock down the specs for gold. I expect a Dual will run it ok, till you get lots of stuff going on (lots of other aircraft) and a quad will be better. Ram you want to be looking at 4GB reall and Graphics a DX11, 5850 a good starting point. Please note, these are no way accurate as no one really knows yet. Just ball park guestimates. |
Ilya has announced on FB that they'll be releasing system specs soon.
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Wow thats very good to hear!
I wonder if we can monitor the rise in HW sales hours after the official system spec announcement? ;) |
lol facebook. :)
Still - excellent news. |
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Facebook EXISTS!! (tweets to friends) I thought it was just a movie!!1!1one!! ;) |
Of course they will have dual core support, standard is 4 cores now, by 2012 will be 6 or 8 (high range 32nm intel and the new AMD Bulldozer). Not that this is 8+ threads since each core is also 2 virtualy cores. So real question is will they support hyperthreading?
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Hopefully the engine can be edited so that it works on hexa and octacore efficiently.
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3. I think you misunderstand the mechanics of how threading works, it activly assigns tasks to each thread, it does not "lock them" to one task. If it does thats extremely poor programming and will not be present due to the fact that it would most likely be incompatible with W7+DX11 dynamic load management. The threads are not assigned like AI, Physics etc, they just all run tasks in parallel, often they will run constantly one area of the game but the whole idea of multithreading is to eliminate the wait. In a singlecore/thread it has to do AI+Physics+etc+etc all in single pieces and rotate, multi threads eliminate this completely. Anyway again there is no shared memory when you refer to textures etc. Thats GPU ram and is seperate from your volatile Ram, your CPU Cache, and your HD cache. Unfortunetly it seems games do not run the way you think they run...:rolleyes: *oh btw edit: most / many modern Mobos have integrated network chips, even if not they use very little ram. My intel 980x has 12 threads, I challenge COD to use that. The result is I can have 5 cores/10 threads dedicated to the game at 3.3-4ghz, and have the last core run win7 + steam + networking / whatever else in the background while the rest is completely dedicated to the software. |
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Designing a game engine to make full use of large numbers of cores is a nightmare that no developer can afford, Physx is completely useless for flight model calculations, and a graphics engine that runs entirely on the GPU is a pipe dream. All those expectations are probably based on CPU & GPU vendors' PR, who like to make fantastic promises that developers are supposed to fulfill. As usual, real life is a little bit more complicated: http://spectrum.ieee.org/computing/s...th-multicore/0 |
Bracing for longwinded copy+paste from Wikipedia/Tomshardware. ;)
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Oh and yes, I also extensivly used Maya 7.5 for modeling geometry, texturing (which I suck at) and animation (which I also suck at). Thats the truth, but it does not matter as your argument here should be based on what you say and facts. You are most likely bsing, you have been programming multi threaded programs for who? 20 years? Please enlighten me to your credentials or the company you worked for. Otherwise I call BS because multi threading is relativly new. Also your statement on memory locks I have already addressed and is incorrect. Must not be a great programmer, locks were used in single threads to prioritise threads for the cpu, NOT in multi threaded systems (they can be used but are no longer used in newer multicore OS's as they used to be). I never said it was easy to programme, it is in fact very hard. What I did say is that what you said is wrong, so are you going to explain your statement on shared memory or not? You specifically discussed graphics processing being run through the CPU and its Memory which is completely false. What shared memory are you talking about? I already asked this but you didnt address the question. Are you talking about the system Ram, GPU ram, CPU cache? I dont think you know much at all about the programming tbh, just because a computer has more then 1 thread does not mean it is parallel, you could well of used multiple threads before which memory locks were applied to in order to prioritise a thread (which like I said in the first post was the cpu jumping to multiple threads in succession but it could only process one at a time). Again this is eliminated. Maybe you meant you were programming 20 years ago? That seems more inline with your post... Oh lol I just found this, I thought something was fishy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%2B%2B "Other criticism stems from what is missing from C++. For example, the current version of Standard C++ provides no language features to create multi-threaded software. These facilities are present in some other languages including Java, Ada, and C# (see also Lock). It is possible to use operating system calls or third party libraries to do multi-threaded programming, but both approaches may create portability concerns. The new C++0x standard addresses this matter by extending the language with threading facilities." Lower area of Wiki article - owned... |
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Graphics engines do run completely on the GPU, a graphics engine doesnt mean the entire game, a graphics engine renders and creates the geometry and textures etc. |
<picks a comfy seat and settles in with popcorn and Fanta>
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Can I have some popcorn first though? |
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I will not continue this discussion so please don't paste more text you don't understand from wikikpedia/tomshardware. Why did I really feed this troll? I usually manage to restrain myself from that. PS. Send me you linked in profile in a PM and I will send you mine if you promise to not post it further. I really like to be able to participate in forums like this without using my real name as I don't want to mix my private interests with my business profile.... |
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Although multicore and multithreaded cpu's are relatively new, multiprocessing dates back to the mid-fifties. Already in 2000 I had a dual Pentium II machine running NT4.0, Linux and Solaris (not at the same time, mind you). They all made use of both CPU's. It's remarkable that it has taken such a long time to come up with the idea of multicore/threading and that programming them still is a problem. A fine example of early custom chip (multi)processing was the Amiga, where already in 1985 the chips Agnus, Paula and Denise did work for the 68K CPU to produce graphics, sound, control I/O and memory access. Agnus essentially being the first ever successful GPU and DMAC and sometimes even controlling the CPU and being able to manipulate graphics without using CPU cycles. Programmers didn't even need to use the multitasking kernel. Had programmers and hardware designers of the x86 platform taken a closer look at the way the Amiga solutions were implemented, these things would've been easier a long time ago. |
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Btw never done any web programming, but its sad you cant hold up a argument vs a 18 year old... |
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I havent coded in like 20 years, but mazex is spot on. People who think creating a game engine that can make proper use of 2/4/8 or more threads is easy need to do some reading. There is a reason most software today barely scales beyond 2 threads. Heliocon, maybe you should just try it.
What I am curious about is the physx claim, that it would be useless for flightsims. I dont know about the API, maybe that is useless, but calculating the physics (rather than PhysX) does seem something that could benefit greatly from GPGPU (CUDA or OpenCL). |
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Well, I did write a long example with pseudo code and all in my second post in this thread but deleted it as it was to long winded. I realize that you actually think you are right and then naturally think that I'm just talking bull so let's try to sort this out then. I think that the problem is that you have maybe confused threads and cores in some way. When you write a Windows program it will run in a process and if you do no not create more threads yourself in the code it will just run on a single thread. That thread in it's turn can only run on one CPU or Core (and the OS assigns that if you don't mess with that yourself which really should not be done) . So a game that does not create additional threads will run on one core... It will do calls to the OS that will use other threads for that but generally it will just load one core itself. Then to use the other cores you have to create new threads from your code and start them yourself in the code. The OS can then let them run on one of the other cores or CPU:s if available or chop the time on the CPU between the threads if you have only one CPU/Core. OK - so the threads run in the same process but one of the problems is that if they are going to access shared memory (variables like the state of the me 109 in front of you) they may try to update the same shared memory (like an array of detected enemies that is a private variable in the CFighterPlane object) and that's a no no. Therfore you have to make sure that the thread that is going to update that shared variable get's exclusive access to the variable while updating it - which is essential if you are going to write thread safe code (handled by identifying these critical sections and make sure to exclusive access that memory while updating it so no other thread does that at the same time). The problem is also that both the AI thread (if you create a thread for that in your code and the OS then assigns that thread to run on a core.) and the code for the Collision detection might want to update the number of enemies detected by that specific enemy plane object as the collision detection code has just "killed" that same enemy plane that crashed into a mountain in classic IL2 way ;) The AI code is then on the same time trying to update the object that got "killed" to try to avoid the mountain. What happens then? Those problems are really hard to debug in multi threaded code as opposed to traditional single threaded code that can be debugged line for line but the in the multi threaded code your breakpoint at the part of the code that detected the collision will stop but what is the state of the other thread? Those problems are hard to solve and if your AI thread is milling along updating the "inputs" for the AI planes the render loop has to know that as it updates the actual meshes loaded to the GPU each loop in the main game loop. Not trying to push you down but trying to explain - OK? /Mazex |
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Also physx (which I never mentioned btw as someone implied I did) is mainly geared to particles and cloth/hair etc. It would certainly work for stuff like clouds and smoke that interact with planes passing through, but I dont know of its effects on flight models. CUDA is meh. |
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I understand the differance between threads, cores, processes etc Also the reason I hate programming is debugging because I accidently put a comma or a mistype somewhere and the whole damn thing goes nuts and spams me with errors and I cry into my keyboard as I spend the next day going through 1 hour of code to find the mistake :rolleyes: |
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No - that memory I'm talking about is just the RAM memory that the threads share and that is allocated to the process and it's subthreads by the OS. That memory is then divided into the stack (variables, structs etc - normally with short lifespan that is "cheap" and fast) and the heap (where objects etc are dynamically stored for a longer time and you allocate and deallocate that memory yourself (and it is slower than the stack)). This is all stored in RAM unless the OS decides to swap it to disk if it runs out of memory (but you are fine with your 12 GB ;)). The fact that the CPU then uses registers (memory) etc is something a "normal" programmer never mess with in normal cases with modern programming languages.... If you did not like debugging straight single thread code you can imagine doing that in multi threaded code with eight threads messing with each other and you don't really know the state of that 109... Is it dead or alive? The CollisionAndResponse thread thinks it is not but the AIThread does not know that so can we call it the opposite of brain dead? ;) |
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That doesnt mean its not usable for physics simulation like aerodynamics. Surely you've seen all the hydrodynamics simulations. If it works for water, I dont see why it couldnt work for air: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ok8ThRR-59Q |
Bravo, mazex! I applaud your patience and the clarity of your explanation!
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Anyway thanks for the polite and well thought out responses, but be wary my eye in the sky is watching for you to make a minor grammatical error so I can wtf divebomb you and call you an old fart who programmed typewriters for 20 years :o |
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The main difference is Physx is not really a mechanic focused on physics as much as it is focused on solving and then "presenting" the effects. Its also GPU tied which needs to be rendering. Physx is great, but unless you have a dedicated card its better to buy a second card then have a non physx gpu. Atleast thats what people seem to think on the EVGA forums. |
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The bigger problem though is this: the flight dynamics engine is the core of any flight sim. You cannot rely on proprietary solutions like PhysX because you have to make sure it works for everyone, and also the same for everyone. It is much harder to debug, it is additional work even if only parts of the calculations are moved to the GPU and you run the risk of ending up with a dead solution should nVidia decide to drop it one day or maybe go out of business. |
[QUOTE=The Kraken;217731]Well air is compressible, water is not ;) PhysX is primarily designed for rigid body physics (the water animation also belongs to that area) and not too useful for more complex problems, although I have to admit I'm not sure what the most current state of the API is.
The bigger problem though is this: the flight dynamics engine is the core of any flight sim. You cannot rely on proprietary solutions like PhysX because you have to make sure it works for everyone, and also the same for everyone. It is much harder to debug, it is additional work even if only parts of the calculations are moved to the GPU and you run the risk of ending up with a dead solution should nVidia decide to drop it one day or maybe go out of business.[/QUOTE Yep I agree, I dont think physx should be in because it hurts ATI users, they need to come up with a standard system, but I dont think Havok will cut it either (specially not for flight modeling). |
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I do remember seeing a video of Rise Of Flight where air movement was visualized with arrows, showing wind, prop wash, thermals and the like. I cant find the video, it was really impressive, and showed that game is modelling airflow to some extend (though probably not to calculate aerodynamic behavior of the plane). I was just guessing stuff like that could be offloaded to the GPU. As for PhysX as API, I was talking more generally about GPGPU. There is also OpenCL which works on both ATI and nVidia cards. |
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And regarding typewriters I don't have that (yet ;)) in my cv after many years as a software consultant. The most "boring" project I've been on must be climate control systems (not the small ones for cars), but then again - programming is never boring once you get over the first frustration while learning to write thread safe code for example... |
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyper-threading So in a hyperthreaded CPU the OS thinks it has two CPU:s (or cores - whatever). It can then run the main game loop thread on the first one and the AI thread on the other (from the previous example). The problem (or finesse) is then that the CPU uses it's registers and fat cache to internally switch between the threads without the OS having to care or do that as the CPU has better and faster knowledge about when there is a "slot" of idle time in the game loop so the AI thread can get access to the actual CPU (which is only one). This does not fix the problem of knowing if that 109 is dead or alive though as the two threads running on what both the OS and your code thinks is two really CPU:s don't get any help from this - and they have to be written just like a normal multithreaded application... And if one of the threads constantly uses the single CPU that other thread will not get any cycles to the CPU has to force it into wait and give some CPU time to the AI thread... Therefore HT can be good in some cases but as it's really a smart way to fill available slots of excecution time - but there is really only one "brain"... :) |
Let this thread be a sticky on how you can resolve arguments without flinging crap at each other. Very well done gentlemen! I also applaud you :grin:
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I wonder how different bulldozer will be interms of programming for it. Havent heard a huge amount on it tbh. |
So far I've seen an argument or two, some speculation, but nothing from anyone that counts.
I like to see an official statement as to whether or not multi-core processing is supported. Just a simple yes or no. Is that too much to ask? |
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I'm glad you all sorted out your problems, I was just about to get the wifey to kick the stool out from under me and end it all, I just hope the game works without stutters, I will leave the reasons as to why it runs smoothly for you guys to explain. :rolleyes:
Oh by the way I'm huge and muscular and will be kicking all your arses if you start any more mind numbing posts on multi threading etc.;) |
I say settle it over the English Channel like real men!
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