second sino-japanese war 1937-1940
 

I have another really Forgotten Battle:
CHINA JAPAN 1937-1940 AIR WAR
(second sino-japanese war 1937)

Another conflict to consider in a far away series of Storm Of WAr
Ugly war, but nice 1930-1935 era planes.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Sino-Japanese_War
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xi6wI...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qENLZS4wJsM
http://warandgame.com/2007/12/03/air...alone-1937-41/

air forces

china air force

* Curtiss Hawk II
* Curtiss Hawk III (two .3 inch Browning machine guns and could carry only one 500Ib bomb.)
* Fiat CR32
* Polikarpov I-16
* Polikarpov I-15
* Polikarpov I-153
* Boeing P-26C model 281 (fighter)
* Northrop 2-E
* Chance-Vought V-92C Corsair
* Martin 139 B-10B bomber

* Mistubishi A5M (fighter carrier fighter)
* Nakajima A2N (carrier fighter)
* Nakajima (A4N1) Type 95
* G3M1
* Aichi D1A1
* Yokosuka B3Y
* Mitsubishi B2M2
* A5M1

http://www.acesofww2.com/china/HawlksOverChina.jpg

http://www.1-72scaleplanes.com/galle...art/claude.jpg

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/h...6d/az-7243.jpg

You forgot the He-111?

Yes +10000000 on that! But I fear most kiddies are only keen on late war planes that are armored like tanks and are extremly fast. Slow and weakly aremed planes are more for freaks like me and other early war planes fans!
Your list is missing a plane that is a real favorite of mine the Kawanishi H6K built from 1934 till 1942
http://www.aviastar.org/pictures/jap...anishi_h6k.jpg
http://www.corbisimages.com/images/6...1/NA008031.jpg
http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m...anishi_h6k.gif
http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m...97_Transpo.jpg

You are right
http://de.academic.ru/pictures/dewik...-111A_CNAC.jpg

If i recall correctly, this cnat be done due to china and politics...

cheers

You also forgot SB (which was most numerous Chinese bomber) and DB-3. Also, most of the I-15, sent to China were I-15bis. Soviet-made planes were flown by both Chinese and Russian crews.

There were also D-510, flown by French volunteers, few Hs-123 and some other types.

I really wonder if China would make a fuss, if this was brought into a flight sim? Is there anything half ways official known?

@SaQSoN yes you are right the Chinese airforce is almost totally made up of Russian aircraft and a few others from other western countries. Most we already have in IL2 1946 only the Japanese side has major gaps in aircraft.

Apparently they would... Seeing as the war was fought by the Nationalist government. Can't be seen supporting them...even if they have moved to Taiwan.

The air war here sounds really interesting equipment wise. A very eclectic set of aircraft. I had no idea the Peashooter actually had combat use.

I would LOVE to play a campaign with those planes!

Heck, i really wouldn't even care if it was "historically accurate" or even a theoretical conflict. There was a ton of advancement in the years between the wars and the transitions are fascinating, at least to me. Everyone was working off of theory, some turned out to be right and some far off.

Splitter

Hmm odd, but then politics has little to do with logic.:cool:
On the other hand chinese skins have been around for years, never really heard anything....is China so influencial in the sim market that they could have an impact in any way?
Good Chinese - Japanese squabbels are nothing new, and if China had its way
I guess no sim would also have any WWII Japanese aircraft flying at all. Let alone chinese nationalist planes.

The topic is very interesting and it would be a bummer if politicians can just so block for the rest of the world something like that.

That'd be Chinese "Communism" (it really isn't... but that's beside the point) for you. They get overly sensitive on these kinds of things surrounding their revolution. Japanese aircraft in the product isn't on the same level.

IL-2 apparently is sold in China so probably what would get them going is if there was a more significant Chinese Nationalist presence in the game. Having the Flying Tigers in there is still a US presence and I guess that lets that go under the radar.

Third party campaign builders can of course do whatever.

Hmm o.k. guess then the way would be since most Chinese planes used during that time where either Russian, German, US or from another western country, there is no real possibilty of blocking that, same then for the Japanese aircraft. I wonder if they would make a fuss if a map turned up with their part of the world on it.
Most likely you are right then it would have to be a third party add on....I just hope that politics do not scare off any who might be thinking of covering this topic. It would be a shame if it fell due to politics under the table.

China has banned the sale of the Hearts of Iron series because it doesn't depict China as a single entity, so that would be a yes if you want a historically accurate scenario.

Based on the Chinese TV programs I've seen in the past couple of years, I'm not at all convinced that this political angle exists today. I can say that there seems to be almost no interest in the ChiCom revolution in Chinese pop culture. Sadly, I honestly believe there would be much more official disapproval of a positive depiction of the AVG pilots.

Hey guys this is very good campaign indeed.
Don't forget the battle over Hkalkhin-Gol 1939 (Nomonkhan for Imperialist Japan)

These battles took the biggest air battle in single day about 250 fighters and bombers from Soviet and 170 fighters and bombers from Japs took part in one day air battle. Also massive tank battle was orchestrated by Soviet legendary general Georgy Zhukov :grin: Sorry for bad spelling :(

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battles_of_Khalkhin_Gol

i believe that will be great fly Hawk III and i153 against mistubishi A5M and Nakajima A4N1
i would like so much a map in the china coast, not in the interior of the country. i want the aircraftcarrier whit old monoplanes and biplanes.

http://www.clavework-graphics.co.uk/...ters_S1_P1.jpg
http://www.afwing.com/art/jp/KY-th019_type95_a4n1.jpg

I'm mostly a Fw190 driver and fan, but sure, count me in. If i was to make a simplistic analogy, i'd say that simulated fights in these planes would be like having a hot-rod version of WWI biplanes and that makes it fun and appealing to me.

As for possible objections from China, i think the issue rests on how easy it is for a disagreeing party to take legal action against you. It's just like the Grumman vs Maddox Games situation:

If you are a company releasing a commercial product, they can threaten with lawsuits and force you to settle or accept their terms out of fear of legal expenses, or take legal action to have your game banned in their country and cost you sales.

If you are a bunch of non-commercial 3rd party modellers however, they can't individually sue you for exercising basic freedoms in your state even if they tracked you down (at least not without causing a diplomatic incident with your government and giving free public image ammunition to their rival governments in the process, ie not worth the trouble). The most that would happen is they would block the download of your content in their country, but that wouldn't cost you anything as it would be free anyway. If anything, it would save you money in the form of reduced bandwidth/hosting costs not having 1.2 billions of people as potential downloaders of your community add-on :grin:

Hence, if it's done by people that can't be blackmailed or have their arm twisted by a combination of legal and economic means, there's nothing they or anyone else can do.

For me...part of the fun is flying and fighting over a convincing map. This theater of battle could be made better by a really good China map (and the much needed improvements in the SoW engine)...(flooded) rice patty's, the proper architecture, tree's and everything else could really make you feel like you where "their".

Down and dirty fighting...aeroplanes that are poorly maintained, dirt runways. The planes set is diverse and with the introduction of the A6M (if properly done), the initial advantages of this fighter should be useful...

Actually that is what I'm trying to say. By sensitive I mean... essentially no depictions at all. Totally different world view on that period in history. North American and European pop culture, on the other hand, are almost obsessed with one piece or another of the 1940s.

I've made a DF map using a mod pack, and have many of the aircraft needed already in it.

What is missing however are the Curtiss Hawk III and fixed gear Hawk 75 H and M, and some of the rarer bombers for both sides. And the Kawasaki Ki-10 biplane fighter for the IJAAF.

It is very fun to fly these old aircraft types against one another.

This is also a fascinating prelude to the wider Pacific war, and one that the US and Commonwealth countries paid too little attention to.

http://img580.imageshack.us/img580/3829/a5mchina.jpg

The moment we have a G3M1 Nell or a H6N Mavis I am also on board, a fitting bomber for that period, and I am all for it!http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m.../Comics/11.gif

http://surfcity.kund.dalnet.se/sino-japanese.htm

we even had such a small early Cina campaign in the VOW :D
http://www.vowreloaded.de/index.php?...up_open&id=121

+1 for this idea from me too, I am trying to create several sino-japanese missions, the Burma and eastern China maps are great, I wish we had a map of Southern China (or a portion of it), and some of the aircraft that where involved. This theatre is appealing because the maps are very scenic, and the terrain is different than most of the eastern european maps from Il2 (except Slovakia which is a blast to sightsee around). I don't think one would run into legal issues if a map and several aircraft were released, because there is no campaign being supplied, so any political implications are left up to the mission builders and aircraft skinners. This is also a good way to get around the Grumman issue and still improve the pacific theatre.

The early war "plane set" has the potential for great fun and interest. This was the era that brought "dogfighting" to its technological climax...most of the technology's employed where to aid in turning, visibility, climbing and speed. This was also a technological race that ended in the development of the ultimate dogfighter...the A6M Reison.

If the campaigns where done right they could be quite interesting...China's "air force" was a coalition of warlords that each had their own aeroplanes... and then their was the Russian volunteers, and the Flying Tigers.

I imagine that the new game engine would be quite good at surrounding us with the sights, sounds and sensations of flying an open air cockpit...

The advanced features for mission building (like triggers) would be quite useful in building realistic battle environments of an era, when "radio communication" and "radar" was practically unheard of...


+1... If done the right way a good map, of any part, of Asian should feel like a "trip abroad". With the one exception of Shanghai, the Chinese citys and towns of this era had their own unique look and feel. I dont know if people here are familiar with the "patchwork" of rice patty's, as seen from above, but these too are a unique feature of Asian landscape. Their is also a rather steep kind of hilly mountain that is quite common through out Asia.

Oh there is a lot more than dogfighting in this theatre, I just need to think of various interesting bombing missions, like the attack on the USS Panay in 1937 just of Nanking, the bombing of Shanghai, or the early WWII missions like the sinking of the Z-Fleet (HMS Prince of Wales and HMS Repuls) This was mainly done by G3M1 Nells, or for those into something really exotic how about the aerial battles between the Chines nationalists and the comunists, as that was the prime objective of the Chinese nationalist army, Japan first came in second. As to maps, yes those rice paddies are unique or even uniquer would be the Halong Bay.
http://tidingsspot.info/wp-content/u...halong-bay.jpg
Something like that would be a real treat to fly over!

Or the planes could be added without mentioning the war and then third party make the skins and you have second sino-japanese war at IL2!

Another parallel war that should feature in IL2 or SoW is Spanish Civil War.Or do they have objections about a game?

I like early war planes.Specially those less know planes.I prefer the forgotten dogfights than the Hollywood classics,like P-51 x FW-190.

but, we must be honest to ourself i think - those early theaters , even if we here like them a lot, they will not sell very good to the masses !!
I doubt a main developer ,that have to earn money ,will put his efforts in these scenarios IMHO :(

perhaps later, i am speaking here of years :( , some 3.party will make that possible.

Yes,but,and if you could choose between a sim that haves only superstars like P-51,FW-190,B-17,Yak-9,Zero and Spifire and one that have those and plus less common and even "exotic" or secret planes...?
IL2 is different than any other of its genre.

Absolutely true! When IL2 came out it was the first time that Russian planes where flyable. All other sims of the time had your standard set up of 109s 190s, Spits, Hurries and that was pretty much it just need to think of EAW which I flew a lot before IL2.
Sometimes the exotic or should we say less known in the western world can be real ah ha´s So I would not write off the Chinese-Japanese theatre as too exotic to never expect anything to come up.
Who would of thought of ever flying a IL2 before IL2 came out? Most would have asked what is a IL2?

late :(

http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p306/yap05/1119k.jpg

I am Always Late for everything

I understand what your saying...but if they did the Pacific theater "the right way", they should start with 1937 & China. I actually see Khalkhin Gol as a separate "add-on".


Yea...I'm aware of the role that bombers played in the campaign. Some truly amazing long distance sorties...the Japanese where one of the first to realize the importance of escort fighters in bombing raids. Another reason for the A6m's development...

What is the title of movie from the first post?

Great to see such interest in the S-JW, as I'm nearing completion of Part One of an epic three part campaign covering the years 1937-41, called China:Incident of War.

Check out this thread at http://www.mission4today.com/index.p...wtopic&t=10423

I'd wanted to play such a campaign for years myself, and am interested in possibly doing something third party for the SOW series in the future (with a team of like minded modellers), so this is an intruiging thread, as i've wondered what kind of response there would be from the community....and the Chinese authorities!

Another true Forgotten Battle. Wouldn't be complete without one of my favourites. Dewoitine D500... so pretty!

http://www.google.com.au/url?source=...EolfV_YDtuJr2Q

http://www.google.com.au/url?source=...YirS6BgYoY-KhA

Cannon armed, too.
Yeah, a D500, G3M and a Hawk III would really beef up the existing planeset. If I could spare the cash i'd stump up for a flyable Hawk III right now...

amazing, tanxs men ! please dont forgget the curtiss hawk III;)

http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviatio.../1/1224124.jpg

:cool:

I hope that someone can accurately model the Hawk III. This and the fixed gear Hawk 75 versions would be a boon to those of us who really care about this most important "forgotten battle".

S!

Hmm, is that Hawk III a mockup? Doesn't look quite right... :confused:

I think you are correct.

Here is a pic of the Hawk III that is preserved at the Royal Thai Air Force Museum.

http://thaiaviation.com/gallery2/d/1...II-Fourth+View

And a rare color photo of a Hawk III in Chinese service...

http://www.cnac.org/emilscott/hawk301.jpg

jeje i dont see that, a replica.
i have another
http://crimso.msk.ru/Images6/JS/Janes38-3/261-1.jpg