OT: Stick recommendations...
 

In preparation for SoW's almost certain release next year I've been thinking about getting a new stick to replace my old Sidewinder 2. If the new Thrustmaster Warthog stick had FFB I would seriously consider it, but right now I'm leaning toward the Logitech 940. I know the realism of FFB is debatable but I do like it and would prefer to have it offered on whatever I get.

What do you guys think? Any other recommendations?
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Lm001

I have the G940, but don't use it because of the reversal bug. Apparanetly Logitech will soon have a fix.

I'm thinking of buying the Thrustmaster Warthog once their teething problems are fixed.

There hasn't been a stick made yet as good as the MSFF2, but I keep looking. ;)

Loved my old x-52 pro
Currently loving my x-65

To not use the g940 because of the "reversal bug" reminds me of the fairy tale "princess on a pea".

I, too, am thinking about the G940, and wondered about the validity of the "problem". Is it something that some people have experienced, or a global problem? If everybody is having the problem, and the G940 has been out for over a year, hasn't it been fixed by now? If not, why are people still buying it?

binky9

Most people don't even notice the bug, because it is hardly noticeable. Most people would not notice it if they've never had a very accurate stick to base their opinion on.
I didn't realize it was a reversal bug at first. I just found it took me slightly longer to get cross hairs on target with the G940 than the MSFF2. The problem is global, but Logitech apparently has a fix and its being beta tested as we speak.

I would rate the G940 much higher than the X52, Cougar, and CH , but I've hardly used my G940, and I'm hearing rumbling of multiple failures. That said, I personally don't like the feel of CH sticks, but they last forever.

have the g940:

stick:

really good ergonomics, everything i nthe name of buttons and POV you need for il2. Very precise

FFB: its tricky, some planes go really nice with it, others not so. Basicly, i believe that the g940 as a good firmware on force feedback, but il2 needs some improvements on this area.

Throtle:

not that ergonomic
lots of buttons and 2 axis = all that i need and actually more than waht i use

it as 8 buttons in the base, wich are kind of annying, becosue , unless you want ot drop your gear in flight, rest your arm at any time.


Rudder:
never used it. I have a saitek rudder. I only tried to put my feet on the g940 rudder and instantly i felt my masculine element being squezed in beetween my legs. Saitek rudder keeps everithing confortably safe down there.


Overall

for its price ( 280 euros ) it is cheaper than Cougar (200 euro w/o pedals) or Ch products ( total would be arround 300 euro). Overall its a good HOTAS, but if i had t obuy a new one im not 100% sure i would come back to this.

I love the feel of the Saitek single spring sticks like the old Cyborg Gold, they have all the same tension all around with no stop gaps. Now a days they seem to be awfully flimsy though and don't last . I have a Logitech Extreme 3D Pro now and hate it. It's reliable and built well but it's too stiff for my taste. I'd like to try a CH fighter stick and throttle to see how I like it. I already have pedals so I don't have to worry about those.

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FFB is not realistic. If it was you would be able to do stuff like hold the stick to get the right flight attitude and wind on trim to till the stick holds the new position (like in a real aircraft).

HOWEVER it is useful. If nothing else you have to be a total klutz to stall once FFB is set up right.

I still use my old MSFFB2 (throttle only and elevator trim on my mouse wheel) so no idea what current FFB sticks are like.

Having never owned an FFB stick, I was under the impression that this important feature was available in the better ones. Do *none* of them work like this?

g940 didnt do this.... unless i missed something when programing it.

That feature is NOT depending on the Stick, but on the FFB-output of the game, afaik.

Correct. The game has to be programmed this way - to simulate less force when properly trimmed. It has nothing to do with stick's FF.

Hi Necrobaron, I've been using microsoft FFB sticks since they first appeared, and never looked back. I never saw a good alternative, so I'm stockpiling FFB2 sticks. Why not stick to the MSFFB2 for SOW? After becoming a student pilot last summer i began to appreciate FFB anew. It really IS realistic. Flying close to a stall in RL, i get the same gentle shaking i'm used to from my stick. My opinion: FFB absolutely rules.

I've deleted the overdone gun recoil ffb files from my game, however. FFB-wise, i'd love to see a better implementation of weather and runway effects. In RL, the stick really speaks to you, there's lots of input coming from air turbulence, ranging from tiny to huge. Propwash from a guy ahead e.g. is very uncomfortable and really bangs the stick!

True m8. I really hope SOW will feature realistic trim. In RL, a flettner trim tab works like a second elevator that flies the actual elevator. You set the trim, the stick will stay in its momentary position, but the stick forces will disappear. Also, in RL you can't get more elevator authority in turns or dives by trimming tail-heavy. In fact, if you've pulled the stick all the way back and you want more pitch-up, you trim nose-heavy, this will move the trim tab upwards and increase positive pitch momentum.

S!

yeah I was referring to FFB in IL2, not in general.

Trim in a real aircraft is much easier. Programming the FFB to emulate this real life feature would be a huge improvement.

Perhaps its something we will see in SoW.

What exactly is this reversal bug?

Well, mine just seems to be getting a little long in the tooth and as far as I know, there is no longer any driver support for it. I've often heard that MSFFB2 is the best and I agree. Just a shame MS won't make a third one...
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Wendie 99

http://forums.logitech.com/t5/PC-Gam...e-or-software-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xiwyBM7PXEo

The complete link (sorry Chivas):

http://forums.logitech.com/t5/PC-Gam...em/td-p/445318

I own a G940 and am deeply unhappy with the reversal bug: Its *not* a "Princess on a pea problem" as somebody said earlier in this thread.

Reversal Bug: You move an axis (throttle, proppitch, aileron, rudder, etc.) slowly in one direction: 1%, 2%, 3%, 4%, 5%. The you carfully reverse your movement. You would expect to go back to 4%. It doesn't: It jumps to 2%. The G940 does that on all axis. Makes precise throttling, trimming, aiming, flying in formation really really hard as one constantly overcompensates.

As to be read in the above mentioned link, Logitech acknowledged is working on a solution at least for the x and y axis (ailereon and elevator).

This "reversal-bug", imho, just adds a bit more realism as the mechanical links
to the rudder, elevators and ailerons in the real planes had for shure more play then 2 or 3%.

Nonsense. :)

What about trim tabs then? Because from what I was able to read they are 'infected' as well.

The reversal bug as it is is pure stupidity on the Logitech part. The only reason why it exists is to eliminate pots loosing precision over time, and this is why they won't eliminate it completely. MSFF2 is a FF stick and hasn't got 'reversal bug' - and people are using it even after 10 years.

And if you use Multi Throttel by MykkOwl it is fixed by his tool, so if you use it, no wonder you don´t realize anything wrong.

Interesting point of view... But I doubt that the throttle would have jumped by 3% if you trottled down after having throttled up... And in any case: "Play" is something completly different from "reversal jump": With play, you push the first 3% and finally get the first 1% with the rudder slowly catching up... With the reversal bug, you push 1,2,3,4% and get nothing and sudddenly you get more than you wanted, never being able to adjust to 1,2, or 3...

Yes. And as an owner of a G940 I thank him daily ;-) for his fix for throttle and trims, proppitch, etc.

The aileron, rudder, and elevator is still reversal bugged. And as far as I read Logitech (see forum link abive), they'll only fix aileron and elevator in the forseeable future.

as i have used mikkowl's software as soon as it was available that might be the reason i haven't had to complain :-D

OK GUYS! I'm the one who created that youtube video and am very active in the Logitech forums about this bug. I registered here just so I could respond to this post.

If the "hysteresis" as Logitech calls it (or reversal-bug as we call it) worked like you described, most of us would have little to no problem with it. The problem is it doesn't work like that.

With no play in the controls at all in the rudder control and if you moved the rudders from center, to left, and then back to the right, it would look like this (with 0 being full left, 100 being full right):
Starting at center, then going left: 50,49,48,47,46
Now reversing and going back right: 46,47,48,49,50
That's pretty cut and dry.

If you pretend you were in a real plane and there was a little bit of slack in the rudder control and you moved the rudders from center, to left, and then back to the right, it would look like this:
Starting at center, then going left: 50,50,50,49,48,47,46
Now reversing and going back right: 46,46,46,47,48,49,50
The fact that it does not immediately change shows the play in the linkage that must be overcome.. this would be expected in a real aircraft.

Here's what the G940 does:
Starting at center, then going left: 50,49,48,47,46
Now reversing and going back right: 46,46,46,52
See how it jumps from 46 to 52? If it was simply mimicking play in the controls, that jump would not be present... *THIS* is what makes it so annoying.

I don't fee like going back and researching my figures, but IIRC the reversal 'jump' in the throttles was over 5%, and in the rudders and trims was over 3%. This is *HUGE* when precision flying is involved.

I can understand why Logitech decided to put some Hysteresis in there... to compensate for 'pot flicker' where very small adjustments upon reversal tends to produce some variance, but what they should have done is programmed it to 'pick up where it left off' rather than to 'compensate for the amount of hysteresis'

All CH. Straight lines. Sensitivity curves are for sissies. No filtering or dead band either. ;):grin:

I wish that I could take a Logitech G940, get it drunk, shove it in a cheap motel with a frisky CH joystick and then use their hybrid offspring for my gaming device.

Since there's two topics of joysticks, I posted in the larger one. Much stuff related to what's in this topic. http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthr...t=18710&page=5

The reversal bug has nothing to do with filtering. It doesn't make any sense. Even the slightest opposite movement (as opposed to giving some slack) makes the output make a big jump in that direction. With time if pots get worn out and it starts misbehaving, you'll probably see wild jumping up and down thanks to the reversal bug amplifying every opposite movement.

The reversal bug is like filtering using the wrong math and input, where it reinforces any pot problems and makes the control much, much more nervous and inaccurate instead of less.

I'm stuck with my G940 more or less for Cliffs of Duty, I mean, Call of Hannover, no I mean, Cliffs of Dover. It will support device link similar to IL-2 so I can probably adapt my multi-throttle tool for it to try to get rid of the reversal bug from all the non-joystick axes. If there is no support for the built in led lights, maybe get some functionality through the tool also. But it pains me to think of the hassle involved when none of this should be necessary. I just want things to work out of the box. :(

Btw, CoD will probably support separate wheel brakes. Those axes also have the reversal bug. But braking does not need much precision so can probably leave them as is. 13 out of the 15 axes on the G940 have the reversal bug.

How long have you had the joystick? Can you return it? Maybe write a letter to Logitech stating that you have a broken product and want to return it if they're not going to fix it.

Worst case scenario, you spend 10 minutes writing an email, best case you get a refund and pick up something different.

After spending hours and hours of reading different forums, i would recomment you to STAY AWAY AS FAR AS YOU CAN FROM A LOGITECH G940.

Until they officialy announce a rev2 , but that would mean admitting to disign/production flaws.

Its like a hot girl with more then 2 std's

Or you could post here:
http://www.ch-hangar.com/forum/showt...-products-2010
And ask Debby McDowell, Director of Sales and Marketing if 2011 will bring us a new CH Product product.
For 2010 she gave a honest reply.