Uniforms and ranks and medals!
 

Hello everyone,

As I'm sure everyone is aware, we're trying to break new ground in flight sims in every aspect of the game, including character customization. You've seen our highly-detailed animated pilot models and you've probably seen the wide range of customization options in a few Igromir videos.

We are continuing to expand on this feature. However we've realized that our own references are pretty limited and a lot of times we can't make sense between the written word and the historical photographs.

We'd like the player to be able to finetune generic uniforms to his individual taste or experience, with choices of rank, awards, and so on. However information we have is very limited. Moreover like I said historical photos often show things that do not seem to correspond to the rules.

So, for each of the playable air forces, RAF, Luftwaffe and Regia Aeronautica, we could use as much extensive information as possible on the following fronts. If anyone does not want to post this information here in the forum, please feel free to email me at luthier1@gmail.com

1. Country / Regiment / other group identifiers, such as RAF shoulder title patches. What were the various options?

2. Rank insignia. Can't find any information on what type of dress needed to have what type of insignia. Also we're seeing a seemingly random assortment of it on photos, especially on RAF personnel i.e. we're either not getting the system at all, or a lot of it seemed to be optional in combat units.

3. Awards. Again, what type of uniform would have what displayed in combat?

4. Any other badges or insignia worn by aircrews.

We would really appreciate as much detailed information as possible. We'd like to give you all the possible historical options to make your virtual alter ego as unique and personalized as you want him to be.

I will do some research...just amazing the extent of the details that are lost to time:grin:

Insignia,ranks and etc in the pilot models??
OMG,the models will be ultra complex!

That´s going to be interesting!

phillip.ed is your man for RAF uniform and equipment information, although it's a real minefield.
Personal preference played a large part.
'Shoulder title patches' were utilised for commonwealth pilots from Canada, New Zealand, Australia, South Africa, Rhodesia etc, but not for indigenous uk pilots.
I'm not sure about Ireland (Eire).
Most pilots with experience lost their collar and tie and wore a silk scarf for lubrication when turning the head.
Some wore flying boots, some wore shoes for 'feel'.
Some wore Irvine Jackets, some didn't.
Some wore silk inner gloves and gauntlets, some just wore silk inners.
Some wore goggles for fire protection, some didn't because they distorted vision and reduced field of view.
Most wore 'Mae West' Lifejackets, especially when flying over the channel.
Some ran for their aircraft wearing pyjamas with an Irvine Jacket over the top.

Here's a useful link with many country's insignia;

http://www.ww2wings.com/wings/britai...insignia.shtml

And this is the current RAF rank key, which is mostly unchanged as far as I'm aware;

http://www.raf.mod.uk/organisation/ranks.cfm

Uniform tunics would carry ribbons of any awards above the left breastpocket, and would mostly be DSO, DFC for officers or DFM for NCO's.

I not aware of any rank or award being shown on either sidcot flying overalls or Irvine jackets, only on uniform tunics which were worn in battle by some.

Unfortunately I don't know anything about Luftwaffe habits!

Hope the above is useful.

I'm amazed you're going into this much detail, but it's most welcome. Thanks.

For the Luftwaffe the answer is: That depends on what the crew is wearing. Medals were to be worn on the standard uniform jacket or the leather jacket which was used by many fighter pilots. This means if the crewman/pilot doesn't wear a flightsuit above medals (which weren't that numerous, yet) would be visible. However if he wore a flightsuit no medals would be visible.

The same is true for rank insignia. The epaulettes and collar patches were only present on the standard uniform jacket, the leather jacket was often (or even mostly) modified to carry the epaulettes but not the collar patches.
On flightsuits none of these were present and rank was signified by simplified patches on the upper sleeve.

Edit: Additionally some units which bore a traditional name were entitled (required?) to wear a cuff title on the right sleeve. Units, cuff titles and application guide can be found here: http://www.xs4all.nl/~rhorta/jgcuff.htm

RAF Aircrew Badges
 

RAF Aircrew badges worn on No 1 or No 2 (Battledress). Not worn on Irvine jackets or other flying suits at that time.

http://i646.photobucket.com/albums/u...BadgesWWII.jpg

sorry missed one out.

http://i646.photobucket.com/albums/u...ineerBadge.jpg

Fascinating concept :!:

I realize that there are many, many dedicated and knowledgeable simmers and enthusiasts here. However, consider for a moment that there are people whose passion and interest have been uniforms of various military organizations since before flight sims were on PCs; their interest is this specific slice of detail

I know that the search for information will not be limited to this forum, or even to the internet. But when I read this title, I immediately thought of a website I frequent, which deals with US militaria. I realize that this website will not be critical for the development of the first installment of the simulation. But it sprang to mind because of the depth of understanding and knowledge that certain members there have for things like uniforms. Some have been collecting and researching since the 1960s; that's a lot of experience! These are the sort of people that can tell the era that a shoulder or sleeve insignia served in by the way it looks, even if to the casual observer it looks identical to one made decades later- look, they post, this is WWII vintage because of the way the stitching joins the image to the writing here and here, they will say, and maybe add that it was only used after such and such a date. This sort of in-depth knowledge is not unusual among those people

I am sure that there are enthusiasts of this kind who participate in online forums and the like, who specialize in German, British, Italian, Polish, French, etc etc uniforms and dress regulations and practices of the second world war

So members here, if you know of such places, or even yet, if you participate there, I am sure that a wealth of information is literally right at your fingertips

Battledress wasn't worn!!!! (unless you count Brian Lane wearing a prototype version...)
They wore their No.1 Service Dress (SD) uniforms.
I'd love to help you out again, Luthier and Oleg, but I am just too busy. If I ever have the time, I'll e-mail Oleg (if his Oleg is still the same as it was around a year ago)
Other forum members are also collectors, and so I'm sure if they have the time and see this, they may be able to help.

Good luck.

Hi Luthier,

One quick notice; it was very unusual for RAF fighter pilots to fly in their Sidcot sheepskin jackets: most found them too bulky in the cockpit and on occasion the collar was a downright menace - you'd turn your head to check your 5 or 7 for bandits and find yourself staring straight at close range at a fluffy sheepskin!

Most photographs of the era show the fighter pilots wearing their No.1 Service Dress, no neck tie and top shirt button undone with silk scarf, Mae West and flying boots.

Certainly the odd fighter pilot did festoon himself in said Sidcot but they are the exception rather than the norm. On bombers however, I'd expect it to be a different story.

The sidcot suit is not a sheepskin jacket.
The 'Irvin' jacket is the sheepskin one, made by a number of contracts, most notably Irvin.
The Sidcot suit was developed by Frederick Sidney Cotton OBE (17 June 1894 – 13 February 1969) around 1917 time (IIRC). the pattern in use during the BoB was the 1930 pattern.
Not many fighter pilots wore either in the battle, although many wore the Irvin jacket during the BoF, and Bader notably wore the Sidcot suit.

Does Luthier need all this info? I sent Oleg pages of the stuff, and I detailed each specific item of kit available at the time ;)

War Service Dress (aka Battledress)
 

Philip, I'm inclined to agree that War Service Dress (aka Battledress) was probably not worn during the BoB dates but included reference to it since SOW is expected to cover complete WWII period.

War service dress was introduced in 1940 as a blue/grey version of the British Army's battle dress. Initially, war service dress was only worn by air crew. However, in 1943, its use was authorised for all ranks and trades. War service dress continued to be worn after the end of World War II. It was significantly altered in 1948 and not phased out until 1973.

Pete

Battledress Trial
 

Battledress Trial reported in 30th May 1940 issue of Flight magazine .

http://i646.photobucket.com/albums/u...dressTrial.jpg

Don't know when first issues made but it seems clear that, although the "erks" got to comment for the trial, until 1943 it was only issued to aircrew.

Pete

No harm in sending it again is my view! :grin:

Battleddress in BoB?
 

Here's a nice shot of the CO of no. 19 Squ, Brian Lane, taken at Fowlmere during the high tide of the Battle of Britain:

http://rafairman.files.wordpress.com...brian-lane.jpg

I guess this is the picture philip.ed was referring to when he mentioned Brian Lane wearing the prototype battledress? The fabric of the jacket seem to be different from the service dress jacket worn by the pilot on the right.

As for what was worn in the air, this picture of Bader and the rest of no. 242 Squ indicate that dress code for flying was not very strict:

http://www.constable.ca/caah/242Sqdn3.jpg

Battledress
 

The pilot on the right is Flt Sgt "Grumpy" Unwin. As an airman his No1 SD jacket is made from serge, not the barathea that officers uniforms were made from.

Philip could be correct in saying that the Sqn Ldr's is a prototype.

Thanks for the reminder though, I had forgotten that photo of Sqn Ldr Lane. You wouldn't think to look at him that he was 23 years old at that time.

Pete

Yes, he's wearing the prototype, and as far as fellow collectors and I have agreed, the only type of battldress worn during the BoB. It may have been trialled, but I think it was only later sent to stores. ;) Of course post-BoB is another matter, but currently I think sending kit references which exceed the BoB date would just confuse the team into modelling this type for the BoB.
I've already seen examples where the team has used post-BoB kit (type 21 microphone modelled, mark VIII goggles shown in a poster for the game etc)

It's also worth noting the differences in the Other Ranks and officer's uniforms: material (as you say), also the officers tunics had buttons on the two lower 'flap' pockets which the Other Ranks' versions didn't have. Of course the rank insignia was different, and the Officer's would have a tailored cut.
Let's be honest, modelling all these differences would just be a lot of time spent pleasing a minority of people :D it's still useful for the future, I suppose.

Roger that Phil, late night post, the old grey matter not quite the instant recall storage device it once was! Yes i did indeed mean Irvin, not Sidcot in reference to the jacket.

What prompted my point was a lot of screenies showing our Spit/Hurri pilots ensconced in the Irvin jacket in their a/c; I'm trying to find the book - it's here somewhere *rummage* - for the actual quote which prompted my statement.

Seemed an appropriate time to bring it up, discussion on uniforms and such.

Yes, sorry if I sounded aggressive mate ;) 'Poor' British weather creating too much trouble :D hehehe
Yes, I hear you mate. I, too, have read accounts that said how the Irvin was just not suitable for fighter use (unless the weather really was that cold). Although it gets cold upstairs, the Irvin limits head-movement, as you said, which is essential in combat.
In one of Derek Robinson's books, he suggests that the pilots cut the collars off, but I believe this to be a myth. I doubt they'd have wanted to do this to such a prized item anyway ;)
The BoB was quite hot, and many apparently flew in shirts...
Can any flyers comment on this? would this have been unbearably cold, even in the hot summer? I'm not sure whether this is true, or a myth, as many pictures were staged.

I would guess that the cockpit would be quite warm, sitting behind that big engine. Plus sunlight tends to heat up such a small area quickly, I experienced this and its a heat wave for sure. Add to this any kind of action, then you would wish to be in a t-shirt.:grin:

It must be a weird heat. A bit like climbing a mountain. You can sweat to death in your thermals, but once you strip off and re-dress you will start to freeze.
Or, to put it more simply, a bit like doing a cross country run when it's very cold, but a few minutes in you will begin to get very hot.

I have a particular interest in Brian Lane. Not only is this pic one of the most iconic of the era, and not only did Lane write one of the few contemporaneous accounts of a Spitfire pilot (a great read BTW, it's called Spitfire!) but he also happened to live a few streets away from my house in London.

I recently tried to get Lane honoured by English Heritage's Blue Plaque Scheme. For those who might not know, properties in London which had a notable person living there can be eligible to have a commemorative Blue Plaque put up on the outside. Incredibly, English Heritage denied my application for a plaque for Lane on the basis of his "slight connection with London". Well, he lived in London, went to school in London, worked in London before the war and then fought in the skies above London. What more do they want?!? What a joke. RIP Brian.

As previously posted, the chap on the right is George Unwin. Here's a short interview with him ... YouTube.

This has useful Luftwaffe uniform forum/threads:
http://www.luftwaffe-experten.org/fo...p?showforum=35

Some Italian flight gear..
 

Thanks for the link. He looks rather more composed of the book cover. Same prototype battle dress jacket though:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/...yL._SS500_.jpg

This thread seems to have a lot on Luftwaffe uniforms. have to join/register to see the photos.
http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=374726