Ethics of pilots fighting for the sides in WWII
 

I don't really feel like discussing this. But, I'm deferring to the judgment of the community and posting the reply in this new thread.

The war shouldn't have happened. Following orders didn't help.

I recognise that the difference between one person fighting for their life and another isn't that great. Many people on the allied side were fighting for the wrong reasons as well (even though the side was the one that needed to win for humanity's sake).

But it doesn't change the fact that a lot of good people and innocents were killed by German pilots fighting the war. It also doesn't change the fact that they were fighting on behalf of a nation which had a horrible and inhumane regime that was simultaneously conducting horrible crimes.

Does that make sense?


I agree that Triggaaar is right that there were choices btw. Not easy ones though (especially for patriots or people who cared about what other's thought).

One can look at the treatment of draft dodgers or people who went AWOL in the past decade - in America - during wars of lower intensity, less ideology and less risk to the home country.

It's a good subject for a thread. I would rather ask the question "Why do you fly for the side you do in IL-2, or why won't you fly for a certain side?". But either way, it's sort of asking the same question though.

I honor all that fought honorably. Most of the young men who fought were doing it for their country at the beginning and then for their comrades (most likely) once they got a taste of combat.

Did the German pilot believe in the same ideology as the SS leaders? No way to tell. But chances are that they were called to do a duty for their country and they simply answered the call. I do not think that they knew what was going on in the concentration camps. they were fighting for the Father Land.

Allied soldiers fought Nazi tyranny. They fought for their country and for their comrades.

So for the common soldier, the common pilot, there was no real difference. That is why I can respect all who fought honorably. These soldiers weren't into the politics, they were doing their duty.

Of course, I can make a differentiation for the soldiers who did not fight honorably. They occurred on all sides (yes, some more than others) and deserve no respect. But those are the individuals, not the services as a whole.

Personally, their is no side I will not fly for in the IL-2 virtual world. I am only playing the part of a common soldier/pilots. I don't fly Japanese aircraft because I don't like the planes, it has nothing to do with shooting down Allies.

But....I could see someone not flying for a certain side because of deep felt convictions.

Splitter

From where I see it, it's just Human vs. Human in a futile attempt at proving who's more right than another about some dynamic subject or another. We just use symbols and solidified policies to tell each other apart when we're more or less biologically the same.

And hey, war's inevitable anyways. XP

Anthony Beevor wrote something of that in his book on Stalingrad. The Germans physical courage wasn't in doubt, but their moral courage was nowhere. I always respected the Italian troops who recognised things for what they were and surrendered. If only 5 million Germans were as brave as that.

Ethics? I suspect this thread'll rapidly unravel and get locked really quickly. Or at least it would on a lot of other forums, but we'll see how things progress!

There were enough men and women of honor in various uniforms to be cautious of stereotyping a nation, or nations. I am fascinated by the views of the opposing sides in '39/'40 when things were very different to '44/'45 - for example the section in Paul Richie's "Fighter Pilot" (Battle of France) where the RAF types enjoy drinking and laughing with a downed compatriot aviator who happened to be wearing the uniform of the Luftwaffe. Things changed after the war ground on and cities became targets, no doubt.

But it's a sticky discussion and I think I'll steer clear :)

As for Splitter's question "why do you fly for x in IL2"... I tend to fly RAF/Luftwaffe equally.

I like 109s, 110s, Hurricanes and early Spitfires, because as a young lad I grew with tales of the Battle of Britain (I actually have a bit of a downed Me-110), and Mosquitos, because my Grandfather fixed them up during the war. So I'm pretty much going to be in aeroplane heaven when SoW is released.

I have less interest in Italian aircraft (other than for the novelty value), or indeed Russian/USAAF/IJN when they no doubt arrive in this new go-round.

I do, however, try to fly everything at least once :)

Well as they say "History is written by the victors."

Interestingly the German soldiers of the time are now criticized for obeying orders and fighting for the Nazi's, apparently they should have realized fascism is immoral and surrendered at the first opportunity.

Meanwhile the Italian's (especially the more illiterate farming conscripts with no enthusiasm for fascism Hitler or Mussolini) are criticized for surrendering too easily and lacking fighting spirit.

Sooooo ... apparently the Germans should have surrendered more often and the Italians less often :D ... go figure.

Does the name Stalin mean anything to you?

I support the Italians surrendering early. ;)

Splitter,

The basic fact is that the war was horrible for almost everyone caught in it, on both sides. However, a lot of beliefs (including one's held on the allied side) made that war possible.

I guess I'm so aware of the horror that people allowed to happen - all sort of people, for a few generations leading up to the wars - that I view the big picture as being decisive.

You might say that I'd hold the moral character of the troops on both sides as being less important than the moral character of the people and societies on both sides. Perhaps not even that, but rather the moral character of what some people and societies were willing to create or to allow to happen.

As for your other question:
I admit that there are some days when I can't fly for blue, there are some when I can't fly for anyone and most days I'm simply using toys that represent technology (and technology I admire). It is a give and take between enjoying the meaning given to the history and getting to close to it. That is how I react.

And as wise. Thanks for the quote.

Very true.

Yes, exactly what I was thinking. I immediately regretted taking people's advice and creating the thread.

Although the forum is suddenly and inexplicably civil and sane these days. We'll see how long it lasts.

Yes, a great deal. However, it would have been worse (for everyone) if the other side had won. I'm eternally grateful to those who stopped the German armies - regardless of how disagreeable the current Tsar may have been.

Remember that history is written largely by the victors and that slants the debate in such things. That said everyone has been fairly even handed in the discussion and left things open for a very good debate. Great job guys! :)

This is a complex issue but I think that in any war scenario that you consider - there are always going to be young men (and women) sent off to war to fight for their country and they believe the thing they are doing is right. The higher level moral ethics aren't always as easy to figure out when you're in the middle of all of that.

I feel that in many cases there were what I would call "professional soldiers" fighting on either side of the conflict. They do kill for their country but there is a honor code amongst these individuals. There were also some real crazies out there who probably very much enjoyed every moment of it. Nobody has exclusivity on either of these extremes...

Actually, the Luftwaffe was probably the least Nazi organization extant in Germany during WWII, which is quite odd considering their leader, so I suppose if any of us are going to wear the "black hat" it might as well be as a Luftwaffe pilot.

I'm not sure the same can be said of the Japanese, but I'm just not in a position to know what some kid who had been brutalized during his training was thinking 60 years ago.

As for the Italians, you can say what you will about their armed forces, but they had the courage to not give up their Jews to the death camps, and that rates them a bunch of extra points in my book. The same can't be said for the French.

The problem with a discussion like this is (as has already been mentioned) is that we tend to paint with a broad brush, sometimes rightly, sometimes wrongly, but always roughly. The truth almost always lies somewhere between our perceptions (and I do believe there is such a thing as truth).

While I believe that the "average Joe" fighting in the mud or the skies or wherever his job put him for the most part fought for his comrades, the pall of brutality hangs over the Axis forces, and any honest evaluation (at least I believe so) of the war will show that much of the brutality committed by the Allies was in reaction to this (though I don't offer it as an excuse).

Here is what I do know; nearly all of Europe was culpable in the Holocaust, (again, the broad brush sweeps up unintended victims [The Dutch for instance paid a high price for their resistance to the 'final solution']) and the US can certainly be accused of pushing the Japanese into the war. The war on the eastern front was perhaps a case of it's own, but even there the grunt on the ground had a grudging respect for 'Ivan' or 'Hans' as the case may be. The simple fact of the matter is that War is a brutal affair, and no amount of armchair Generaling will ever change that.

Maybe we're all odd ducks for our fascination with this war that was fought by our fathers and grandfathers but I think we can all respect the courage with which they fought their own little corner of the war no matter what flag they fought under.

Should it interest anyone I'm a Yank and I generally fly Axis, though I fly almost anything at sometimes or another.

Actually the Luftwaffe was not much different from the Army or the Navy. In the lower echelons were just as many Nazi-supporters as people who despised the Nazis. And of course there were many soldiers simply had no interest in politics and therefor no opinion beyond the usual crackerbarrel rhetorics (i.e. Hitler saved Germany and removed unemployment ... bla bla bla). The difference was that the higher echelons of the Luftwaffe were a lot more riddled with Nazi supporters than the Navy or the Army.

As for ethics ... Soldiers back then simply had a very limited amount of information available to them. I've read exerpts of Hannes Trautloft's war diary and it soon becomes obvious that even for a Geschwaderkommodore there's little beyond the scope of his role as commanding officer and fighter pilot. He simply has no way of gaining more insights because there are no alternative (and maybe even broader) sources of information available to him. This becomes very obvious in the later stages of the Battle of Britain where he remains extremely confident and expects the launch of the invasion anytime soon.
He also never questions his duty for his country and there's nothing in his diary that is political, although Trautloft was known to be one of those who had no use for the Nazi leadership and despised them for their crudeness and violence. What does that tell you about the ordinary soldier?

Hindsight, which is obviously applied in the question posted by the thread starter, is a marvelous thing, but it's quite clear that most germans remained unaware what kind of criminals they were serving.

Wow. Most civil and fair-minded discussion of this topic that I've ever seen on a combat flight sim forum.

As a military veteran of many years, I'm left to feel that there is hope for mankind yet.

Thank you all... it's just very uplifting to see people attempting to sincerely find the truth in it all, and not get distracted by politics, propaganda and agendas.

Republican, Democrat, Fascist, Communist, Theocrat, etc.. as you've pointed out - are all political religions, having very little to do with warriors. Conscripts, draftee's, etc.. really don't have control of these issues.

Volunteers are presented with justification from each of the political factions in conflict which will completely convince almost anyone of the 'rightness', 'honor' and necessity of their sacrifice.

Also, no one who flies for any side more than another - should ever be judged in our community for their choice. I've seen that in Il2, and even in other historical sims.

S!

Gunny

https://webspace.utexas.edu/joem/For...erSIG-2010.jpg

all sides playable
 

Yes,prooved that flight sim lovers are generally wise people:)

I like the possibility to fly in Bf109 and other axis aircraft and really dont like bias of Call of duty 1,2,..; Medal of Honor; etc.
I understand that developers dont wonna be under press of society, but really dont think that the opportunity to play another side means automatically propaganda of some inhuman movements or whatever. Maybe it could be, but only if the developers give this feature to it.

Just dont understand the people who are thinking that killing axis soldiers in game is good but killing the allies is bad...

I think this is pretty much spot on.

The young men were fighting for their countries and their comrades. Most knew very little about "the big picture". There was no internet, there were few papers, and there were few radio stations. There were was no internet and no 24 hour news networks.

People believed what their government said. The government said it was their duty to go fight and that's what the people did. It was a duty and I respect that very much.

Certainly there were atrocities, I would argue that most were committed by the Axis. Now....when a soldier willingly participates in such atrocities, they have crossed the line from warrior to criminal. In those instances, when a soldier is ordered to do something outside of the scope of warfare or when a soldier takes it upon themselves to commit such atrocities, then that individual needs to be held accountable. At that point, they are no longer soldiers.

Any soldier has the obligation to disobey an "unlawful" order but no soldier can refuse to fight.

It is also important to separate the soldiers from the leadership. Just because the leadership may have been evil does not mean that the society or the soldier was also evil. Therefore it is completely logical to be able to honor the common German soldier while despising the Nazi leadership. (this was just a convenient example, there are others)

Honestly, that's only fair. You cannot hold the common soldier accountable for the evil done by the country's leadership. Conversely, you cannot hold the leadership responsible for an isolated atrocity committed by a soldier or small group of soldiers.

Keep the soldiers and the leadership (the political ideologies and decisions) separate. Critique the leadership all you want, but honor the warriors if they fought honorably.

Splitter

One additional thing I would say on this topic, and it's not pilot related so I apologize for thread drift, is that everyone should read The Forgotten Soldier by Guy Sajer at some point in their lives. Regardless of any minor quibbles over historical details, it is a remarkable and powerful book that serves to humanise the scared face of youth in an adversaries' uniform.

And it's easy to forget how young a lot of the combatants were, both on the ground and in the air (both in the Battle of Britain and later in the war). I'm still amazed at what Geoffrey Wellum was doing at 17, and that Guy Gibson was a Wing Commander by 23. What was I doing between those ages? Not a great deal to write home about!

Cheers, Spinner

awsome subject, but why i fly axis mostly is kinda not interesting. Way back in the CFS1 and CFS2 days there where werry few axis pilots, so i flew with the JG 26 in cfs 1 and when cfs 2 came around i jumped to the 6th kokutai, and realy never looked back.

But now after my return i stil love the pacific, but i just feel alot more fun in the P-36 and the P-40 in the PTO....realy dunno why....have been a zeke driver for a looong time. but now the "hawks" kinda interests me instead....

About the topic....in general (remember i said general) i think you can se the aviators as the sub crews. They are a tool of war with not much politics. Even the Japanese pilots had abit more higher standard than most of the rest of the IJN / IJA. Think it comes down to how special you were in general as a pilot.

Millitary pilots even today have a small thing about them. I was on training (leapard two) in Germany, hooked up with a few German personel we whent to town. Had an awsome talk with a "dame" told her i was a "tanker" etc, then doing the talk one of the "jerrys" comes by sits with us mention hes a pilot and that "dame" was lost to me....lol....cool to be a tanker, but wings get you girls..... :)

one of the best threads i've read on this forum....great stuff:grin:

I've read that book from Guy Sajer. He was a drafted french from annexed Alsace in a logistical regiment of the Wehrmacht on the Eastern Front.The bbok covers his war experience from december 42 (he was 16...) to his surrender in 1945. It's amazing what this guy went through and survived...

The funny fact is that because of the propaganda he received on the front, he was persuaded that the french army was actually coming to help them fight the soviets nearly till the end of the war... Go figure, as was said, no means of information for the common Joe on the front.

I respect people who fought honorably in this war, on all sides. Not their leaders, as war is usually the massacre of young people that don't know each other for the sake of old people who don't fight and know each other.

I'm french, and my oldest friend is a german. I can't imagine what would've happened if we had met 70 years earlier.

What a great thread and so uplifting that it is being treated thoughtfully and with respect ... and has somehow stayed on topic and rant free. Well done all.

My own position re IL2 is that I only fly for the Allies. I have flown some German or Japanese a/c out of curiosity, but in actual combat, I'm just not comfortable with flying for the 'enemy'. I have always found it interesting to consider the reasons why some choose to fly Axis a/c and this thread is throwing some light on that.

PPanPan

There is a saying: A good man in a bad place. I suspect there were many such men, and women in those days.

One thing I have always found heartening about the Japanese was the behavior of many civilians and enlisted men towards prisoners in the home islands. Despite the threat of being quite literally beaten to death if caught fraternising with the enemy, many risked their own saftey to show kindness to PoW's. Even Greg Boyington, a self confessed Jap-hater (his words, not mine) said how touched he was by the way civilians would risk all to give them food, despite their own deprivations. He also mentioned kindly guards that smuggled precious soap to the prisoners. Demonstrating as one would to a child how to bathe and keep themselves clean.

Away from the eyes of the brutal regime, it seems that compassion and dignity still survived. The idea of collective guilt is often mentioned in relation to some nations. In the case of Japan, I think it is rather less so. The civilians could not of guessed what appalling acts were being being committed by their military overseas. Such things could hardly have made it into the newsreels. Indeed, most troops once sent overseas did not return home for the duration of the war. So word wouldn't have filtered back much that way. The civil population would have only known strict military rule, constant reports of victories. Then a slow tightening of bellies before the B-29's came. It's no wonder many would later appear skeptical of the crimes of the military, and be more focused on how much they suffered at home.

Well, just thinking out loud there. :rolleyes:

There were plenty of bad men in bad places too. That's the thing, War is all about the individual fight to survive. Take any cross section of society and there will be the rotten few in there somwhere, problem was in WWII they were heavily armed and trained to kill.

I've read accounts of RAF pilots flying very close over German parachutes in order to collapse the 'chute and kill the pilot hanging from it.

IL-2 wise I always felt a little wierd shooting down Spits (I'm British) but not enough to stop me doing it.

Luckily we all share a passion for WWII aviation and so when you see someone flying a 109 around online you don't think 'Nazi' you just think '109 lover'.

The beauty of IL-2 is the emotional attachment to the aircraft means that the politics of it all don't matter. Man and machine, that's all.

I only fly German planes because of her:

http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/2861/...aschifferb.jpg

I only fly blue side because of this:

http://www.cybertraveltips.com/image...rmany-Visa.jpg

Exactly. Let's make a comparison between then and now, in an effort to have the differences point out a possible explanation.

A lot of european countries are fighting a war along with America that takes place way over the other side of the globe with no clear objective, unattainable goals, moral justifications that often contradict actual events on the field and for no apparent gain when the net resuls of things is assessed might i add, neither for the men fighting, not for the public back home and certainly not for the local populations, on behalf of whom these wars are partly supposed to be fought, instead of tightening up border control, funneling all those funds into the secret services and special police branches and focusing on nipping the situation in the bud (what creates anti-western sentiment in the east, which is all too oten foreigners meddling in their domestic affairs) instead of waiting till it blows over and having to put boots on the ground.

Looking at the treatment of news reporters who raise doubts about the whole situation makes it clear what the treatment of servicemen who oppose this would be. And while it's considered and legislated an act of treason often punishable by death to disobey orders during war time, there is no formal war declaration for what's happening over there, which is in direct contrast to WWII. So, first of all, back in WWII you could get shot.

If this wasn't reason enough to go and do what you're told, the other big difference with WWII and the reason we all had to start running out of money to fund our countries before conceding the point is simple: modern wars are mostly fought by professional soldiers, a situation that combined with the far away places the fighting occurs by and large shields the bulk of the population back home from experiencing the war.

If there was a draft and a civilian army fighting along with the pros, criticism and public intervention in how things are run would be a lot higher. For people to be against war, they have to experience war. And for people to understand how war ties your hands into doing things you don't like, they also have to experience it first hand.

At the very least, in order to even sympathize with these two lines of thought when there is no direct danger to the home grounds, they need to have an indirect personal investment in it, like a relative in the armed forces, which has the effect of shortening the geographical distance of war. The smaller, professional armies of today mean that less of the civilian population is indirectly invested in the war, as opposed to the massive conscripted armies of WWI, WWII and Vietnam which touched entire neighbourhoods despite the distance between home and battlefield.

In that sense, it's pretty obvious how stark the contrast is to WWII when most of the fighting was done by conscripts, a lot of times within their own neighborhood. Having your relatives die or your local school carpet bombed tends to bring out the self-preservation in people and since we are naturally distrustful of each other, most of us think it's better to have a corrupt government of our own to try and overthrow, than be a subject of a foreign occupying power that will meet all such efforts with increased force.

It's the same reason Greece fought on the allied side in WWII, even though we were ruled by a military dictatorship that ideologically had much more in common with the axis: the guy in charge knew that a world war rests a lot on projecting naval power so he threw his chips in with the side the UK took, but he also knew that the general public would have none of it if he announced an intention to give away land to Mussolini's armies as per the ultimatum delivered to him, because it's easier to overthrow your local dictator than a foreign one. Plain and simple, if your local dictator sends the army to shoot at civilian protesters, there's a higher chance of your countrymen missing on purpose than if they were a foreign occupation force, or having a friend/relative at the other end of your gun barrel.

This was illustrated in the fall of the Greek junta back in 1974, when on one hand a tank smashed the gate into the Athens polytechnic university to end the student uprising that had taken up HQ there, but on the other one most of the military units posted all along the city (some of them commando units no less) didn't lift a finger to harm the protesters, whom in turn had already appealed to the soldier's (again, mostly conscripted) sense of a common ancestry. In fact, the majority of torture, killings and deportations during the 7 year dictatorship were carried out by the police forces and certain special military police groups, not the rank and file of the conscripted youth.

Finally, people often do wrong for the right reasons and vice versa. Studies have been coming to light that show most normal and well adjusted human beings are naturally averse both to violence and injustice, wether that means having it imposed on you or exerting it on others. It seems that despite our overall shitty nature, we instictively know what's wrong and our own body has mechanisms to punish us for straying from what is considered ethically acceptable.

This is why post traumatic stress disorder was experienced a lot during WWI (the condition defined as shell-shock back then) with the appaling living conditions and the mass loss of life in cannon fodder attacks that served minimal tactical or strategic purpose, why a lot of the SS troops who were posted to death camps actually went clinically certified insane and committed suicide after witnessing and causing all that violence, why Soviet troops fared better and had more resolve despite their enormous casualties, why it has resurfaced in the morally ambiguous military undertakings of recent years but mostly on the western side, but also why PTSD was not encountered as often in WWII veterans of the western front.

Political and religious beliefs, justification of actions to oneself and accepting that nobody is 100% pure good or evil can only go so far, if the wrong we do starts outweighing the right as we perceive them instinctively, it starts taking its toll on us. If people are inclined to feel (not believe, but instinctively feel) they are morally justified in what they do, or at the very least that their hands are tied and they have no other way out, they tend to have a higher morale level and less objections.

Summing it all up, it's clear that airmen experienced the war in a more isolated, cleaner way than the troops on the ground, especially on the western front. Especially during the early conquest of France and the low countries, most of the luftwaffe pilots were carrying the remnants of the WWI aviator's tradition: professionals engaging in deadly combat proving one's superiority with an air of sport, competition and respect for the opponent's abilities.

Even as early as that however, the missions they mostly disliked was ground attack taskings. It wasn't only because a fighter pilot would find a freijagd mission more enjoyable, it was also the fact that ground attack would take away that air of sportive cleanliness that pervaded fighting against an opponent flying an evenly matched machine as equals and put them closer to the dirty side of death, in a position of superiority over the grunts on the ground, the friendlies to be anxious of protecting and the enemies to ruthlessly kill in a way that makes them seem almost defenseless to you. Having also in the back of your mind that you are not defending your home but ruining somebody else's is enough to create some resentment for the task. This situation was further exacerbated in the Eastern front, were wanton violence and destruction on anything that moved (not only on military targets) was coupled with worse living conditions and an increased amount of close air support needs.

Finally, as the war drew to a close, moral was low but resolve sprang back up, due once more to moral justification. The strategic bombing campaign gave the Luftwaffe pilots the moral justification they needed to keep fighting, in their mind's eye they probably weren't fighting the enemy as much as trying to minimize devastation wrought on their civilian population. Even though bomber interceptions (especially at the face of complete allied air superiority late in the war, but even during the early stages of no long range escorts) was considered a very undesirable mission that sapped morale levels, they drew on the instictive "self preservation justifies me morally" attitude that's found in all human beings to keep at it until no longer feasible.

This is all pretty much summed up in the saying of one of the luftwaffe aces (i don't know but i think it was Priller, please correct me if i'm wrong as i would welcome someone reminding me who actually said it) about air combat, where he stated something to the effect of: "To tangle with Spitifres over the channel or even with 20 Russians trying to take a bite off of one of yours is enjoyable, but turning into the pursuit curve towards a formation of a few hundred Fortresses makes your life flash in front of your eyes every single time."

I know someone will be along shortly to flame me as a LW appologizer or a traitor to modern western standrds, but first of all this would simply prove my point and second, i live in a country that's up to its neck in debt, due in large part to the wars we've been forced to fight (99% of them defensive ones, fought on our land and with our civilians right on the line of fire) and the need to maintain a military half the size of Germany with 1/7th of Germany's population, in which we are all inducted and serve as coscripts before we turn 30.

Please, keep that in mind and realize i'm trying to paint a picture of how humans react to war regardless of race or religion through examples from history, not point fingers or give pats on the back. Disagree with me just like it's your right to do and state your objections, but let's not turn this from a statement of uncomfortable truths about human nature to a personal slagging match. Thank you for reading this far ;)

Indeed, just checked Wiki: Greece spend 2.8% of it's GNI for their armed forces.

But, why?

I feel your whole post was a bit naive on human behavior. Which also begs the question why you enjoy a war simulating game. America cannot just standby, and wait for another tower to be brought down.:grin:

By the time i finished my usual diatribe ( :-P ) the thread has moved along quite a bit, plus quite nicely and in a civil manner i may add. Good work everyone.


That's a sig-worthy quote ;)


I'm not saying they should sit there defenceless. I'm just saying the guys in charge messed up the execution for most of the people involved, regardless of side.
In any case, this was used as an example to compare with previous wars because it's the only high profile war running today on a more or less global scale. As for what's naive or not, the whole "instinctively good" angle is not my deduction. It's actually the conclusion of a research done by a US army officer on the conduct of soldiers during WWII and Korea, which ended up influencing changes in the entire training doctrine of the US army.

It's not the main theme of the thread to dissect this topic however and i would prefer not to dwell on it for fear of derailing the very constructive and on-topic thread we have going here. It's a current day issue and tempers can run hot even when no ill will is present, i'd like to avoid going down that route and ruining it for everybody else who's participating on this thread. Cheers ;)


Because a few expansionist politicians periodically end up governing a neighboring state or two, plus some painful history lessons that end up forgotten every few years and then the leadership scrambles to plug the holes all over again.
Also, on a humorous note, we lack Switzerland's banks that would make powerful people all over the world very negative to the idea of us ever getting attacked :-P
Again, i'm answering this as it's directly addressed to me but i would prefer to leave it here in order to keep this thread on topic.

I like this self-moderation thing we're exercising here :grin:

Well....i give a few pointers, but wount go into it....

Cyprus and if you look at a map, look east of greece, that is the main reson and have been like that since...wowser....many many many many many years......

Exept the shootings and the "official war" the situation between greece and the "land far east" is almost with the same tensions as north korea and south korea...

Well, as John Lennon said, Imagine...

I think I'm happy to live in a peaceful Europe, with friends from Germany, Belgium, Netherlands, Croatia, Poland, England, Ireland, etc... all joining in a virtual sky to fight with and against, but where the end of the fight is usually join the girlfriend and not sleeping on a muddy field, half frozen with shells incoming...

What was good in WW2 ? Nations grew adult and started talking together. Peace was paid at the cost of millions of lives, and just because those people allowed me to have friends in Europe and live in peace, I have the deepest respect for them.

Blackdog,

There are problems with your comparisons to today, but not flaming.

Most of the soldiers fighting today in the Middle East are very well informed and very well educated compared to the men fighting in WWII. They are making informed decisions...and by in large they want to stay and finish the job.

Perhaps they have seen enough of the world to understand the dangers out there better than people sitting at home? A lot of the young men who come home find it very hard to connect with people their own age who did not go into the service.

You theorize that a higher incidence of PTSD and related disorders are somehow connected to morally "suspect" wars. I would theorize that the higher incidence of some of these disorders is from enemy tactics. In WWII, the enemy wore a uniform. In later conflicts, the enemy tried to blend in with the population and the soldiers were constantly "on guard".

Studies I read back in the day were pretty clear that every soldier is subject to some form of battle fatigue and every soldier will begin to suffer the effects if left in combat for two weeks. In many wars today, there is no real safe haven, the civilians are potential threats, and tours have been extended.

I can only speak for American soldiers and I know or have met many. They are probably the most adamant segment of our society when it comes to seeing the present day wars through to a successful conclusion.

They understand, probably better than most others, who we are fighting and what we are fighting for. And they say we need to fight. That should tell us something.

Like I said in other posts, separate the soldier from the leadership. You can say that the wars are morally suspect (I know you a bit from your postings and know that you still honor the solders), that's a comment on the leadership in various countries. Fine, that's your opinion and obviously not what we are discussing here.

But you cannot say that the soldiers are suffering from some sort of moral dilemma and that is somehow causing them problems. Far from it, they are motivated and committed to the cause.

Come to one of our wounded warrior shoots (you get the flight, I'll pick up the lodging :) ). Not only will you get your hands on some pretty cool hardware, but you will see some soldiers who want nothing more than to get back out there with their unit. They may be missing legs, arms, an eye, whatever....even after all of that they want to go back and fight. Yes, it is enough to bring a grown man to tears when you see it.

There is not much of a moral debate going on among the Armed Forces. We may be a bit divided at home, but the people out defending us are pretty united in their commitment.

Wars are terrible and some more than others. I think of the fighter pilots in WWII and can see why they were maybe a bit different than the common ground soldier. The pilots usually did have something of a safe haven at their base. They "usually" did not actually see the people they killed. There seemed to be a more "gentlemanly" aspect to the pilots, a mutual respect. In many cases at least.

Maybe that makes it easier to fly for both sides in a sim?

Then I think about the German pilots and what they went through. I am not minimizing any Allied service, but German pilots could not complete a tour and go home or be re-assigned. They flew until the war ended, they died, or they were wounded too badly to fly. There was no "end in sight" for the German pilots. That must have been very taxing indeed....a lot of them ran up against the odds at some point maybe hundreds of missions into their career. Staggering to think about.

Splitter

This is sometimes true, but not always. What is much more true is that history is written in the main by the survivors, and that is a big bias.

Just to go back on topic for a moment:

I mainly fly RAF, because I've always been partial to the machines (particularly the Hurri) and partially because of growing up in Norway in the 70ies (the RNAF has strong ties to the RAF from the war, the squadrons are even numbered as part of the RAF system). Having said that, I fly whatever side or whatever plane tickles my fancy: German late war wonderplanes, Italian birds (the SM 79 is great!), Soviet ground hogs or any rickety double decker. Mostly i enjoy flying for whomever is the underdog. That is a rather typical human trait. I don't fly American planes much, mostly because the US were top dogs for most of the war, and because I don't like their planes much. Polished metal has never been my thing. The Martlet is a great little plane though.

Good point Igo



You also hear many stories of the Japanese Navy, who treated prisoners relatively well, being very unwilling to hand captured allied sailors over to the army and the work camps and apologizing to the prisoners they were handing over.

i recall an episode in his stalingrad book about that... the italian commander surrendered in the face of an overwhelming soviet assualt supported with tanks. the italians had no anti-tank weapons, and surrendered without firing a shot. when asked why, the reply was "we thought it would be bad idea".

and recently, there was something i saw on telly, something in the region of 250,000 or somthing (could be wildly inaccurate, can't recall) were sent to the eastern front, and only 10,000 (or something as hugely disparate) returned.

I'm a hypocrite.
I will not fly a Nazi German plane in a mission offline or online, unless testing a new map or the red team is full, and largely for moral reasons.
On the other hand I will fly japanese planes, because american fighters are hopelessly unmanoeverable and for straight lines only. Like American motorbikes.
I do like to fly american bombers though.

However I think I'm right in thinking that like every German soldier, every German pilot had to swear personal allegiance to Adolf Hitler.
They may have said, 'well yes we did but we had to', but they still flew around with a big swastika on their tails.
I can't bring myself to do that.

Sorry if this sounds like rubbish, but I've had a couple.

PS. Never post when drunk

Indeed:

"Ich schwöre bei Gott diesen heiligen Eid, daß ich dem Führer des Deutschen Reiches und Volkes Adolf Hitler, dem Oberbefehlshaber der Wehrmacht, unbedingten Gehorsam leisten und als tapferer Soldat bereit sein will, jederzeit für diesen Eid mein Leben einzusetzen."


"I swear by God this sacred oath that I shall render unconditional obedience to Adolf Hitler, the Führer of the German Reich, supreme commander of the armed forces, and that I shall at all times be prepared, as a brave soldier, to give my life for this oath."


However that is not quite the same as the Waffen SS which required "Aryan ancestry and National-Socialist beliefs ":

http://www.lonesentry.com/articles/ttt07/waffen-ss.html

I don't think you are a hypocrite. You use your freedom to elect not to fly under the swastika banner, that right was after all an important part of what the war was about.

Like you, I fly for my own enjoyment. I do not feel any obligation to "honour all veterans on all sides" by flying under their banners. As long as you recognice your feelings for just that, and not mistake them for some absolute moral imperative, you are not a hypocrite in my book.

I will fly anything that isnt american

or I use a non-american skin on it...

Perhaps thats because I played Aces High II (which has all american planes flyable and a few foreign ones because they need non-american planes to shoot down xD)
and the holiwood movies

I also dont like their lack of chivalry and i cant stand their skins with the redneck names written on them

Are you talking about the actual WWII pilots or the people who play Aces High II?

Splitter

Of course the BF109 was a Nazi machine...it would never have been made, if not for the Nazi's.

The Luftwaffe may have been the least political of the military branches...but it still owed its existence to the policy's of the Nazi party.

The individual soldiers of the Luftwaffe may have had different (personal) views on the war and politics...but their machines where the property of the Nazi party (as the pilots where).

NOW on to the other issues...putting everything into context. The statement concerning soldiers that where "just following orders". This argument came from the war crimes trials...many, many officers, soldiers and Generals claimed to have been "just following orders". A major issue with this claim is that their are many people who felt that this statement was used as a convenient excuse to evade accountability. But still, this statement has caused many people to ask themselves the question, "what would I do?" This is a very personal question and I will NOT get into the details of my thought process...

NOW, we as gamers (and historians) enjoy the perspective and distance of an event that happened (some) 60 years ago. We enjoy and study the machines of war...the tactics, the historical accounts and other details of this history changing event. Many of us admire the technology of the war...but I would hope that this admiration for Axis technology was NOT enhanced by an admiration of Nazi policies. Their is also an aspect of cultural individuality that reveals itself in the planning and execution of the machines of war that is separate from the politics (somewhat separate_lol) of the government...Russian weapons are said to be like farm machines, German weapons are said to be "over engineered", and American weapons are mass produced for the everyman, ect...

I hate the Nazis...but I think the BF109 is a very cool fighter plane. A game like "IL2 1946" allows me to enjoy the thrill of flying a deadly (cool looking) killing machine like the BF109 (or FW190) without thinking about the historical politics (and atrocities) of the historical event. Its "just a game"...we as humans are complex muliti-layered organisms, and its up to each of us to decide for ourselves if we are comfortable with the idea of flying (and virtually killing) with a symbol of Nazi oppression.

Make no mistake...the German machines of WW2 where symbols of Nazi oppression...they where built with Nazi money, they where used to advance Nazi policy's, and they killed many people...

I would continue to detail the specifics of my views on this issue, but I think that the more intelligent of you understand my point. I'm needed for Thanksgiving preparations. A luxury I wouldn't be enjoying without "our" machines of war...which I also enjoy flying.

I hate politics. That's why I don't give a xxxx who did what in WW2 when I fly in IL-2. I totally and absolute refuse to care.

But I prefer to fly in Finnish Air Force because I love this poor little country I owe so much, and it is great to defend Helsinki, for example.

However long time ago I made a plan that I will fly for whatever nationality my girl is, and thus honour her by "wearing her colours".

I fly for no particular Airforce in IL2, but I have yet to fly for the Japanese past like 3 maybe 4 very short test flights. Thier planes are just sad little things. I just find a plane that works for me and go with it, regardless of nation. I mostly fly the Spitfire, Corsair and P47 though. Sometimes roll out the Me410, 190D13 and 262 when I feel the urge to down some bot bombers +D

The actual (american)WWII pilots, most regarded their enemies just as `nazi scum´ instead of a fellow figher pilot following orders

(the Aces High community itself is overall very polite and respectable btw)

So you will NOT fly American cuz you feel that American crewmen hated the enemy...but you WILL fly German even though the Nazi's killed and oppressed thousands of innocent civilians? Interesting...

Do you feel that ALL German pilots respected the enemy? Do you feel that German pilots did NOT hate the enemy? Just wondering...

That is absolutely not what I have heard them say in interviews. Yes, you just insulted every American service member, but at least you are honest about your opinion and I can respect that. I think a lot of people hate America but won't say it and I don't respect latent prejudice. I would rather people be honest.

Maybe we'll just sit the next big one out :).

Splitter

i hate war, i hate injusty. i want a world with meritocracy so that who deserves is can go better than otehr but be obliged to help thos others/ those in need. Now i s what i want... not to speak here.
i love warmachines and vehicles but i hate war itself. Cant imagine it. in my humble existence i pass many hours thinking about the duty etc things and other key questions about our histry and our todays multitaking society.

i always have been afashinated by such discussions. the same thing is filosofy lesson... although that i hate it and never wanted to do it ( but here i want to discuss) i become completely immersed in the ''logic'' of this lesson and people like Sokrates. he had an ideal.. a logic one that i respect and died for it, he was accused with an unlegit accusation but he said to his friend that ''you have to obey in laws even if they are injuste'' making me thinking that only if you see the real effect of a something , only tehn you will fight to change it( anotehr reason is that in philosophy i think their way of thinking can be interpretaded in your most constructive way)
another method sokrates used, teh teacher told me yesterday was irony: in a discussion about what is that etc he pretended to be affascinated or that he knew nothing about teh subgect so that teh otehr person felt in advantage and then demolish him with questions.( the teacher used for exapmple the racism on colour and showed us how completeley dismantled it with just a question and an observation)
the good thing about all these things is that i get in contact with many point of views taht help me reach a neutral not biased opinion.It happened that in some cases i defended some accusation wwii germany saying that bla bla bla is a cause of unemploeyement and misery. I condone teh idea of nazism but it was an idea that grew up in an economicaly compromised germany coming after wwi and the treaty of versailles and as most of people in hard times become easy victims of propaganda for teh desperate need of a change. i have to accept that so that in teh future we could learn from teh past and avoid cases smliar to that.
the only thing that i admired of 1900 wars was the air as it was considere as soemone said a sport to show your skill etc(ups, didnt said it correct). i admired the story of the red baron deaths, liek hitting all 7 or 8 planes before crashing and i always think that on war, soldier or pilot you are regardered as it or not for its political beliefs. i think also that i it was possible all soldier would directly attack enemies politicals rather tehri puppets.
Maybe i sound confused.... it 24.00 o clock and i do not speak good english. It my humble opinion and you know i can always iimprove it.
as i said i like every vehicle and technology so i fly regadless of the colour. I respect every soldier that fought in war, although im 17 and neve rlived in such situation i try to understand all this and i can say that sometimes is really difficult.
these thread really remade my awareness of the danger that we are having in our modern world.
the tragic thing is that some people( mostly the ''high'' ones) forgot to take lessons from our pasts and continue to take or world to ( dunno teh world, i use one that might be eccagerated) oblivion.
one of the very best community and high quality one! really good job. Ps sorry for the wrong written ''the'' teh, and that taht
someone told me that we are empty jars and that they fill us with ideas, knowledge and truth etc... i prefer to think that expecially today we are full jars and that they or we have to make the truth , the right etc emerge

I thought that might be the tipping point where this thread descended into the pit, but kudos for the restrained responses.

German WWII veterans seem to garner a great deal of respect and interest whenever they pop up at warbird airshows and the like in the States.

What were we saying about stereotyping and tarring everyone with the same brush?

Gunther Rall was hounded by the Gestapo many times because his wife was helping Jews. Nothing was done however because he was such an asset. One of the commanders of a JG 53 unit was married to a Jewish girl, Goring had them all put this stupid red band of same around the nose of their 109s, you can see it in the SOW video. Gordon Gallob was a hated Jadgeschwader leader because he was such a fanatic. He followed rules to the letter and all he did was get many fighter pilots killed. The big joke is his father was Scotish. He probably wanted to over prove himself to the brass. In here anytime you say positive things about a German you'll get blasted witch is understandable but theirs some that were very good men, Trautloft, Galland, Rall, Molders, Barkhorn, Steinhoff, Spoden, Neumann. They were just fighting for they bad side. Any smart thinking man would realize that the leader of his country is crazy when men are eating the horses and he's saying we are going win Russia. You keep fighting with your friends and for your country.

Another thing about JG 53: Goring ordered Stab/JG 53 to remove the Pik As from their planes because he heard a rumor that the commander of the flight's wife was Jewish. Stab/JG 53 responded by also removing the hakenkreuz from their aircraft. Their protest worked, and they got to put the Pik As back on their aircraft.

Yep here is a photo of one - (no hakenkreuz but there seems to be a painted over section where one previously existed):

http://thumbsnap.com/i/K1gJUFZN.jpg


Shame all these captured 109's were melted down for the metal ... but I suppose there was a war on.

Great picture.

Great picture, but are you sure it's from Stab/JG 53? The Gruppe insignia seems to indicate III Gruppe to me.

Actually I would normally not write in a thread like this, but certain comments are a little naive, and most likely written because the writers know only part of the picture. Give this also some thought, there where plenty put to the choice concentration camp or front line service. Give that some thought now, with all the hind sight we have. How you would have choosen in that situation and only knowing rumors what is going on in those camps?
Also there where more than enough that didn´t give a hoot about the political big wigs, but where there where they where, because they hoped so to protect their families and homes. That they where misfortunate to be fighting on the side of a cruel system is what we know now, but when you are given only the choice certain death, and high risk of death which would you choose? That there where also exceptions that knew full well what was going on, and believed that was right so is also known, but these are also more the nut jobs. I am just trying to say look at the individuals and don´t throw all in the same pot. As that is how many thought during the fourties, we should know better now.

Well the reference to the photo said:

Bf 109 E 4 "White 5" of 3rd Gruppe/JG 53 (53rd Fighter wing, possibly based in Guernsey), shot down over Margate, Kent on 6th September 1940. The pilot was Unteroffizier Schulte and the aircraft crash landed near Manston airfield.

I completely agree.

I was pointing out the Wehrmacht may have had a compulsory oath to Hitler as leader but nothing else. It was just part of the formality of joining or being conscripted. Everyone swore the oath whether they truly believed in Hitler or not.

On the other hand the Waffen SS did require a genuine commitment to National Socialist beliefs.

I sat threw nine hours of murder watching Shoah and I've seen countless other Docs. on the subject, gasoline injected into hearts for a simple test of endurance on how long a man can survive with fuel in his system, human skin covers on chairs in offices etc, I'm no idiot. These are the Aribert Heim's the Himler's and others who follow their doctron. Psychopaths.

What I'm saying is you can't put all of the Germans who fought in WWII into the group in the box above. I can just see Hans-Joachim Marseille pull up to Auschwitz in his little Kupple wagon and say..Hey we're behind schedual, fire up some more ovens! That last part is sarcasm.

This is actually a weird topic. It's like the Allies are trying to force shame on the people who like to fly German aeroplanes. "Ethics of pilots fighting for the sides in WWII" Guess who's going to look bad.

Ok for the sake of Socrates.

Lets start with what my grandfather said, a soldier in both Winter War and Continuation war. I was a kid during '80s and he told me a war story to which I replied "I would had never done it", eyes blinking innocently. My grandfather was a very good man, maybe the best man I know, and he never showed signs of frown or anger at me except two times. This time he was frowny and serious even and said "none who were not there can never understand". Is it a cliche?

No. It is a simple truth. Or do you imagine you can know something after reading books, watching documents and movies? Pardon me, gentlemen, when I say it is very naive to begin to judge common people and their actions in those mad times. You have exactly as much clue how life was in those sick times as you have clue about how sex with a woman is if you haven't ever experienced it. That is you have some clue and can say "oh WW2, sick nazies" without ever being there, as you can say "oh sex is wonderful" without ever even experiencing it. So are you wrong? No, you are right in both cases. But still I can say you don't understand how it is/was because you never experienced it. You have only been educated to imagine how it is/was.

Long story? No, the questions posed to start this thread are not trivial ones. They are about morals/ethics, which is very complex question. I think maybe 99% of you don't even understand the basics of those well enough to discuss anything as complex as WW2 ethics/morals. And no offence meant. And even if you knew, you would not be able to discuss anything good because you would still miss the actual first hand understanding how things was. Like you can't discuss sex good if you haven't ever experienced anything else than solo masturbation.

Conclusions: All this doesn't mean you are stupids and should stop discussing things you don't understand. It means keep discussing and try to understand as much as you can and never let it happen again. That is what you people can do. If you want.


SPOILER ALERT BELOW. DON'T READ IT BEFORE THINKING WHAT I HAVE WRITTEN SO FAR







Edit: See? My grandfather knew I would had done it, whatever it was, had I been there. Exactly in the same way you would had done all the same things what common people did in those sick times. If you were English, you would had done what English men did. If you were German, you would had done what German men did. If you were Russian, you would had done what Russian men did. Talk about ethics. Or jump back to conclusions.

And even today, men do what they are told to do, nothing has changed in the long history of humans. If the ruling party takes it's country to war, then there are few options for the people, both civilian and military.:grin:

I'm quite impressed with this thread, and not a little surprised. The vast majority of posts here seem to be well considered, and I would be surprised had I not already had a rather high view of the flight sim community in general (save for the occasional twit).

Let me tell you a story that brings my own view on this subject into focus.

While in my school library (I was around 10 at the time) looking for some cool books on WWII with a friend, I made a comment about "those dirty Huns" (My WWII education at the time came largely from Hollywood....38 years ago). One of my teachers had managed to sneak up on us unnoticed and proceeded to read me the riot act about not painting people with a broad brush, and about having respect for these people who found themselves in often impossible situations, and of course the real knife to the heart, that he expected better of me! While I took to heart what he said, and "changed my ways" It was several years before I really understood the import of what he said.....he was a Jew! How could this be? He understood that people do what they have to to survive, and perhaps drag a little dignity along with them.....

I'm a man of strong moral convictions, and I hope that I'm willing to die for them, but there remains the question of if I really will when the time comes. I'll reserve judgment of those who have actually faced the test, until I do.....

Enjoyed your story. I have myself always been puzzled how Jews can be so level headed towards Germans. But maybe they understand something many don't, or maybe they have to deal with things many don't have to.

About the test you mentioned, I can say no test tells anything of the future. So don't wait for one test in order to know anything of the future. Rather keep your humble feets on the ground attitude and don't worry too much. I am sure as I can be in that you would succeed, if we can say so.

How wrong some people can be...
 

This is a game.
This is a game about plane simulation.
This is a game about combat simulation.
Still a game.
What a game...!!!

I can hardly understand how some people try to find ethics in a game.
It really surprises me that, somehow, there are still people around looking for ethics at war.
Not only that, they try to explain us all that their/our ethics are bigger and better than the theirs/others ethics.

I wonder what kind of ethics some people wear around here, in a game forum, while our everyday ethics rest dark in our closet.
Don´t you people watch the news or read the papers?
Don´t you people look out the window and feel how smells outside?

Salutes.

Exactly. But it is good if people think.

Did someone say people now are basicly the same as they were in 50 years ago? Or 2000 years ago? Nothing has changed, except in general people can be more educated. And nothing will change in people in the next 2000 years.

Why? Because evolution doesn't happen quicly. So even though people are more educated, and thus should know better, they are still just the same people as people were 2000 years ago. This means that if enough people begin to be unhappy, bad things will happen. And like that would not be enough, remember that there will be always "holier than thous", and these "holier than thous" has maybe started most of the wars.

So what is interesting is that if people would understand that they would had done whatever what has been done in the history, if they just were there, they might understand that they can still do whatever - even things what has not yet been done, and then they might understand that they are right now actually doing the same bad things. But noooo. They just rather happily live in "holier than thou" illusion; as it has been always, and as it will be always?

Anyway, I have to admit I am actually not very much bothered because there is nothing I can do about it. Yeah, I am one of those "people". I just watch as "things happen". I have justified my behaviour by thinking people will get what they deserve.

So over and out, sorry for my "pessimism", I should actually not post this but since I wrote it already I can post it. Doesn't change anything did I this or that :-P

Salutes and meet you in the virtual sky, as an ally or enemy, you will be respected as either.

I know you are wrong about that one. I have read much about this and the LW was the MOST Nazi organization besides the Waffen SS. Reserach this, you may be surprised!

its simply the "mop" syndrome. If you put a decent person into a group of not so decent, the decent person will, at the end follow the not so decents. Not because of politics not because of ethics or moral, but simply because we humans mirror the social envirement we live in. We live in groups because we are not made for solitary life.

If your life and health (Gestapo, social exclusion) requires you to be apart of the masses, you will end up doing it. Its easy to judge the Germans, but think what could/would happen to you and your family if you went against the leader of the masses.

You might not belive in the leaders words, but you follow them. Some because they want to, some because you have to. And yes, in ww2 Germany you had to, or you were dead, thats the fact...nothing else.....follow the others or end up dead.....

The German population and armed forces got told what they needed to know....and before you shoot that statement down...we have an exactly match in our world today...Not by the politics, but how you can controll the population....North Korea...

Put in the wrong situation at the wrong time many of us would do things we simply never thought we could do....

LTbear

LOL, I have to say that Majo seemed to me to be the rightest one of us all. Then good ole moilami had to come along and ruin it all.

I feel it's probably the most important thing, that people think.

The Dutch, for instance paid a high price for thinking, rather than just giving up and saying, well we're occupied now let's just follow our new leader and fill up those train cars. There too were many Germans who risked it all for what they felt was right rather than just "follow the leader". I'll always hold those people in higher esteem than the followers, regardless of whether I'm willing to pass judgment on them.

Granted, Majo that IL2 is in the end "just a game", but I can't imagine that it wouldn't make people think about these things.

LT Bear, while I understand your point, I hope you understand mine. The simple fact remains that there were many, many people who knew plenty about the "final solution" and chose to do nothing about it. That's how it happened. and that's how it happened. And you can't ignore the fact that Stalin killed at least as many people as Hitler, and he didn't pull a trigger once either.

I have great respect for all who fought bravely (and I fly Axis most of the time). There is some point though where you have to really have to think what will I do if this happens to me? I suppose this is as good a place to ask as any.

And one more can of worms to open..... Don't think it can't happen to you one day, this world has not changed so much.......

True. Certainly everyone here would find their place in $machine, or $machine would show what their place in $machine is. And it doesn't matter at all are you now American or Russian or German because nobody here is better than people who lived 50 or 5000 years ago. We are just more lucky.

Or is someone saying that I am American or I am German or I am Russian or I am Finlander and I would not had done what "they" did in $country 50 years to 5000 years ago?

There is certain percent of people who refused to be part of the machine, and the machine showed them their places in the machine (they got shot, for example).

How big percent that was? Lets say it was 0.1%. It was probably smaller, but lets pretend it was that. Now before you begin to boast "me me me me me me me" think one minute are you currently in your machine part of that, for argument's sake, 0.1%? If you are mainstream folk, as the saying go, you would had found your place in the machine. If you are "good law abiding citizen", I think you would had most probably found easily your place in the machine, that is you would had been part of the machine.

Not blaming anyone. Just giving food for a thought.

I'm just writing from my impressions of nearly 40 years of reading on the subject, I'm fully capable of being wrong. The Waffen SS was actually a very pan European organization by the end of the war, many of it's members much less interested in Nazism, than joining the fight against communism.

In the end I suppose it's silly to argue the point anyway, as they were all on the wrong side.

I think, if you go by official Nazi party records, the Navy actually had the most party members, but of course since the navy was for most of the war represented by the U-boat service I doubt any one here is going to want to short change those guys on their big old clanky iron balled due. :)

Big LOL, I think we just wrote the same thing at the same time, just in different words! :) (and probably from very different perspectives)

I can tell my perspective is Socratean perspective :) That is unpolitical seeker of truth. I am specialized in doing philosophical "täsmäiskuja" on various forums on various subjects, if I feel so.

But can you tell how I ruined everything :confused: I don't want to ruin stuff :( I want to make shock and awe strikes on silly illusions, crushing them mercilessly on useless pieces of crap they are based on :cool: It is my 2c to make this world better ;)

Alright, back on track.

Now, lets see what you have learned.

I ask you a question are those who fly allied planes in IL-2 better than those who fly Luftwaffe planes?

Ah, but that is exactly what I meant, for don't we indeed prefer our silly illusions to cold hard reality? In that respect ruining is a good thing. :cool:. Again I'm sure we are coming to this issue with vastly different perspectives, and certain language issues, but I think our conclusions don't differ so much as an external inspection might indicate. :) Keep thinking, Mate.

no.

Agreed.

However, I don't feel right flying for the axis, I've started a few campaigns, and not finished them, I may start some more some day, don't expect I'll finish those either, but you never know. The Fins I don't feel so bad about, but I still don't usually fly for them either.

I don't disrespect the axis pilots, as people have said they probably didn't know what was going on, but one difference between me and them is that I do know what was going on, which is partly why I don't feel right flying for that side.

....and this is the thing that I fear the most, since I have no reason to suppose governments today to be any better that they were yesterday. (as did the founding fathers of my own country......they feared democracy just as much as the crown, and for good reason)

I agree with both of you, flying Allied plane doesn't make one better than one who flies Luftwaffe plane. I have tried to think arguments against that, but I can't invent anything what would make sense.

To say being a Luftwaffe pilot in IL-2 makes you a bad person is not like saying if you have brown skin you suck because people can't chose the colour of their skin as they can chose what they fly. So it is not as stupidly said.

So to say being a Luftwaffe pilot in IL-2 makes you a bad person is like saying if you own WW2 Luger pistol you are a bad person. It is naive, it is stupid, and it doesn't make sense.

Actually the question I asked was very stupid big time. Huh. No matter, never be afraid to ask stupid questions.

Thanks of the discussions and happy Friday! Meet you in the virtual sky.

BadAim.

(sorry about English, not native English speaking so trying hard not to be misunderstood)

Im with you, and im one of those he dont hold anything against anyone in the past. I live now, my kids get the future all i can hope is that i have learned from the past. But many around the world need to learn that learning from the past dont meen judging by the past.

People who wount play for a side in a computer game or dont want to visit some country because of some historical past are the worst breed of humans, they are the ones who dont learn from history, but judge by history.

If you judge by history, start looking at your own country first, no matter where you live. Most country`s have some dark spots hanging around.

This is where i could mention the first 50 actions by any of the oooh soo good western countrys ( i live in one of them), but i would rather have people read up on there countrys history than me digging it out.

The brave are those who stand against those who do wrong towards humanity, as a civilian as a soldier as a human...

As a soldier you are caught in a werry bad situation when you se and witness something bad, especialy if its your own buddys who do it. Tell and loose everything, or be silent and keep your comrades, those you fight and die with. No one exept those who have been there knows and feels what im talking about.

Many German soldiers was aware of what was going on. The SS and the (cant remember there name) "clean up groups" that came in after the army had moved on wasent hiding it, the problem is what you do as a soldier with that information, you might get the information the the unit commander, but he knows if he reports it him and maby hes family would end up dead.

But this is not a WW2 German thing. Any wars have these situations, even our days of war (even with western soldiers). But the price for telling is the same, you loose the friends that your life counts on. We outside the combat area will never know what happens, and in some cases i think its the best that way. No war can be fought cleanly, war is a dirty mess, and trying to make somthing like war look "nice" is the worst thing we have ever done....

War is dirty and we have to accept that, if we cant accept that, dont go to war....

Realy hope someone can get sence out of all that lmao...

have a great evening...

LTbear

Actualy this is basic combat psykologi lmao....

Everything you said makes perfectly good sense, more than I care to admit. War is indeed Hell.

Edit- Changed my mind, you get that.

Thanks good posting.

I want to comment it because the quoted paragraph made me laugh. Urgh, now this goes political, but for the sake of lol's I say it anyway.

Some years ago I made a decision I wont travel to USA because I read so many strange things happening in there in the name of "homeland security" or whatever. I would still consider twice before I would travel to USA. It would certainly have to be something extremely special and important for me to do it. USA is very scary country novadays because of its government.

I think I will have to launch a wing of Luftwaffe fighters and shoot down some USA bombers to feel more secure :lol: Sounds good! Attention, make my Focke-Wulf ready! Scary stuff in the horizon, looks like American bombers :lol::lol::lol:

I fly for that side because I feel very comfortable in the 109, and 190. They really feel as an extension's of my own being, very comfortable aircraft. As far as the German pilots back then, they were like pilots from any other country, just following orders, with very few options. No doubt worried about their family and country, and so they did what was asked of them.:grin:

Well thanks very much.

I think in spite of the language difficulties, this might be overstating the case slightly.;)

OK, I'm not quite sure what you were trying to say there, but I will say this: things absolutely have changed here since 9/11. Having 3000 people murdered in the space of a couple hours by religious zealots is bound to have an effect. Of course, making people's lives more difficult is part of what the attackers were after too.

But things have not changed much, if at all, in every day life.

The "security" thing is an ongoing internal debate here. Some of the measures intrude on some basic freedoms we are guaranteed by our constitution. EVERYONE is being inconvenienced in the name of security, but it's not like the american way of life has changed.

As an example, one of the largest debates going on today revolves around security scanning at airports. If you set off the buzzer, or get pulled randomly, you have a choice between having an X-Ray scanner take a naked picture of you, or you can choose to go through a thorough "pat down" search, that includes your privates (thank you Mr. UnderWear Bomber).

That is the price we pay because we do not believe in discrimination (called profiling). The 90 year old grandmother from Boston is treated the same way as the 22 year old young man from Yeman. Does it make sense? That is the debate. Neither of the two people I mentioned are likely to be terrorists, but then I'm sure we would agree that one is more likely to be a terrorist than the other.

So we are being inconvenienced because of the terrorists....how does that make things more scary now? I think you are falling victim to some propaganda. Things have not changed all that much, especially for visitors.

I'm just curious: what "scary" things are you being told?

Splitter

(I have a more on topic post that I will separate out to another post)

I have to side with Splitter on this one, mate. It's us who should be afraid of "Homeland Security". So far as I know it's just SOP in Europe. I can relate to finding the Government strange and scary here though. I sleep with a .45 by my head. :)

Tal vez les sirva este reportaje que se le hiso al capitán de navío retirado Augusto Bedacarratz, tripulante de uno de los Super Etendart que hundieron al HMS Sheffield:

"A los familiares de los que murieron en el destructor Sheffield les diría que lamento muchísimo haber sido uno de los causantes de su dolor, que seguramente lo tuvieron y muy grande".
En la acción que él lideró, ocurrida el 4 de mayo de 1982, murieron 20 marinos y otros 24 resultaron heridos.
"El 4 de mayo nos despertaron temprano con la orden de que teníamos que realizar la operación, para la cual nos habíamos preparado durante semanas", explica.
"Un avión explorador que había despegado a las cinco de la mañana ya había detectado el blanco. En ese momento la pareja de pilotos que estaba de turno éramos el teniente Armando Mayora y yo. Rápidamente nos alistamos para salir".
"Trabajamos en silencio, muy concentrados en los pasos por seguir. Eran tantos los preparativos que no había tiempo para el temor y la angustia, a pesar de que la operación era altamente peligrosa y nunca antes habíamos disparado misiles Exocet".
Una vez que los dos Super Etendard despegaron, en condiciones climáticas adversas, los pilotos no dialogaron hasta que detectaron por radar la formación de buques británicos, que se encontraban a 20 millas náuticas y por lo tanto eran invisibles para ellos.
"Ahí rompimos el silencio, intercambiamos información y di la orden de lanzar -recapitula Bedacarratz-. El misil que yo llevaba salió cuatro segundos después de que apreté el botón.
"Ese lapso fue terrible para mí, porque me pareció una eternidad. Mayora no había escuchado mi orden, pero al ver que yo lancé el Exocet él también lo hizo".
Bedacarratz dice que, para él y su compañero, todo ocurrió velozmente, casi mecánicamente, con una sola cosa en mente:
"Al apretar el botón no nos pusimos a pensar en las muertes que podíamos causar. No es que fuéramos insensibles; sólo estábamos tratando de cumplir una misión, de neutralizar un buque que nos estaba complicando. No teníamos nada personal contra nadie".

Data: http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/spanish/spe...00/1854116.stm

La guerra causa dolor del lado que se pelee.

:grin:Any sentence can be manipulatet to sound different :-P

**
People who wount play for a side in a computer game or dont want to visit some country because of some historical past are the worst breed of humans, they are the ones who dont learn from history, but judge by history.

**
Judged by history

"Dad why dont you never fly German. Well son they are damn nazis, wount have anything to do what they made"

"Grandad se im flying, only Allied as my dad, i wount fly German nazi planes i fly allied just like him..."

Learned from history

Dad why do you fly nazi planes. Well son, its not the planes that are bad, it was some of those who lived in Germany a long time ago that was bad.

Grandad se. I fly this German plane just as like my dad, i know nazi`s was bad, but they made great planes...

------------------------------------------

Think the above should explain what i meen by judging history and learning history....

Any kid mirrors there parrents, what you learn them they remember....so what is the choise....learn or judge..... ;)

LTbear

Do all philosophers have an 'S' in them?

In my opinion one of the biggest tragedies of the war is that even till this day there are people whose lives and the lives of their families are still ruined by events and actions that they experienced over 70 years ago.

Time heals all wounds. Unfortunately in some case this takes longer than others. For some hatred of the 'enemy' still consumes their lives and effects the decisions that they make in their lives. Will any discussion we have here be able to change that? No.

IL2 is a computer game, nothing more or less. I tend to fly red more often because I have a great deal of respect for the men who came together from around the world to fight for freedom and preservation of their way of life, which I can enjoy the benefits of now.

Does this stop me from flying Blue to even out numbers, Hell No! I get more kills in Blue aircaft because 10 years of Luft-Whiner pressure has porked the balance of the game in Blues favour! (SK starts building a sand bag wall and waits for the incoming assault - I'm joking of course!)

Should I hate the French because the Vichy Government sent the Foreign legion to North Africa, or the modern Japanese because their military regimes involvement in New Guinea and the South West Pacific? Deep in my heart I just can't bring my heart to it. If veterans like my dad can forgive (but not forget) their enemies, then who am I to feel any different.

Some may find it hard to understand but I can respect the skill, daring and sometime chivalry of pilots from all sides of the conflict at the same time as detesting and despising the system and atrocities that were allowed to occur. The governments and regimes that allowed those atrocities to occur were destroyed a long time ago.

Anyway that’s my 2 bob's worth

Cheers!

TL;DR: I don't want to be treated like a possible terrorist.


* * *

Sorry, I don't really want to spread that propaganda here. I am an amateur photographer and because of that I have read many stories. But if I list even part of it here it begins to look like propaganda.

I just say that based on all news and experiences I have read, many of those coming from citizens of USA, your country appears to have been changed. You seem to have problems with ground level officials too (police and other security personnel), which is not surprising. If you give too much power to common people they will abuse it.

I don't recommend anyone to not go to USA. More than 99.9% of the visitors wont have any problems there. It is just that your officials can ad hoc do very nasty things if they suspect one is a terrorist. I don't want to get arrested in the airport and interrogated for some days before sent back to where I came from. I don't take that risk. I don't want to ruin my holiday. There are maybe 190 (out of 199 or so) countries in the world I would rather visit. Going into some of them would be quite adventurous, which would be part of the experience. But if I travel to USA, I don't want it to be adventurous because of some security personnel. It just feels wrong :lol: Your country is now not what it is supposed to be, in my opinion.

I have plans to do either Touring Murmansk or Touring Alps trip next summer. I know anything can happen in those, but I don't have to fear a single bit that officials of Germany, Switzerland, Poland, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, Austria, Germany, or France would begin to abuse their "rights" against me. Murmansk is a little bit different thing, but huh, much rather Murmansk and Russian cops than USA! That word by the way, USA, was once almost a synonym for a word freedom. No matter how hard I try, I can't say it is so anymore.

So, do you get it? I don't want to be treated like being a possible terrorist. It is offending.

Unfortunately there may be a fundimental difference in philosophy here.

My way of thinking is that well educated 'common' people are probably the least likely to abuse power.

Cheers!

Did you give me a TL,DR and then go on to post a similar wall of text? lol. Just joking :).

You would not be treated any differently than a US citizen and you would have known that if you had read my post lol. We, citizens, are being treated like terrorists in the airports too. It's an ongoing debate, especially within the last few months. I myself have chosen to fly as little as possible since the most recent changes...my own little protest.

However, knowing what I do about security measures in other countries, there is no appreciable difference where security is concerned. We are just now catching up to what is going on elsewhere in the world on the security side. It's sad that it had to come to this.

BTW, there are plenty of places in the world I would not go to and a lot more that I would not live in given their current direction. So I understand what you are saying.

Splitter

moilami.

You and I know that this is a crazy question. Anyone who fly's online and is on teamspeak will find out who the good people are after a couple of months of constant flying. You get to know who's married what their families are like etc. so you can get a pretty good feeling weather you like this person or not. I've ran into some people I don't like but it really doesn't have anything to do with the Luftwaffe. It's usually extreme Republican types I don't get along with LOL

http://creepycat.net/craig/troll.jpg
And stop going off topic too.

Just one? I have one in my nightstand and the wife has one in hers. :) (This is one reason I don't cheat on my wife, btw.)

On topic:

People say IL-2 is just a game. Maybe it is to them. However, I try on occasion to put myself in the shoes of the men who flew these planes for real. It helps me feel a connection to the history.

History is not just about dates and names. It's about learning the lessons of history.

As an example, I had a strange kill the other day. With my last bit of ammo, I got a snap shot at an enemy plane I had been fighting in a rolling scissors. I knew I hit him, but it was a very short burst.

He went into a long, slow, descending left turn. I didn't know what his next move would be so I stayed above and behind. In short order, I became conviced that he was going down.

I know similar things happened to the real pilots and I got to thinking about what they would have been thinking in the same situation.

First, they probably started shaking from the adrenaline. Then they probably started hoping the other guy would get out (I have heard pilots talk about the first time they "saw" an enemy pilot die...before they viewed it as just shooting down planes).

When they realized the other guy wasn't going to bail, they probably started wondering if he was conscious or not. Were his flight controls and canopy jammed? Maybe he caught a stray bullet and was already dead or unconscious....they probably hoped for that because being aware through the whole descent would be a terrible way to die.

Then the surviving pilot, after seeing the foe crash into the sea, probably turned his plane toward home and filed his thoughts away until he could mull them over while having a pint.

I have to think that most pilots on all sides had some empathy for their foes. They all ran the very real risk of being trapped in a plane on its' way down or getting trapped in a burning cockpit. I think that's why "shooting someone up in their chute" was so uncommon.

Yeah, it's a game, but it is what you make of it. some people treat it like a game, others also see a connection with the past.

Splitter

:lol:

I have to say I always admire those republican vs democrats shootouts. Someday I am gonna read what are the differences between them. Have to admit I really don't know :shock:

And sorry for the OT.

I wasn't directing my post at you, don't worry. :) It was directed at Richie.

LOL

Well I think we're all friends here :)

Anyway I'm from Canada.

Or both, but you are on target there.


It's one of the reasons I fly in Il2.

Some games can be quiet serious, take military war games for example. Those games are used to develop strategy, teamwork and experience for the people involved.

Unfortunately due to my limited time I can't take it too seriously at the moment. I would not be able to commit the time for training and availability to join a serious squadron for example. Good luck to the people who can. It is one thing that I admire when I see a group of people cleaning up on a map because their using teamwork and skill to achieve their objectives.

Cheers!

It was badly written sentence by me, I meant police etc. with common people (which they are). But naturally common people should have very little power. Or do you want I can do body search for you girl just because I suspect she might be hiding some sort of terrorist attack plans under the dress :lol: Intriguing thought :lol: Anyway even thought I would not use that power I don't want it - just to be sure I don't abuse it.

If you give too much power for police etc., like power to arrest people at whim or power to do home/car searches at whim, they will abuse it. That is also when they have got too much power, hmm, even if they would not abuse it often.

Ok...now things have been stretched to the extreme. And a little bit of a ridiculous comment too. I dont think that anyone here was even suggesting that "bad people fly axis". It was my impression that we where talking about our personal feelings on the issue of flying Axis aeroplanes...


Lol...its kind of funny (to me) reading stuff like this, cuz things haven't really changed here that much. IN FACT, most of the "security changes" we have had here, have been mirrored in most of the 1st world. The UK, France, Germany, & Japan have all increased their "anti-terrorist" policies. They just call it something else their...

Too me...it sounds like you have been reading the "conspiracy theory"/ "Fringe political" blogs or something..."Guantanamo" aint filled with innocent tourists...rest assured.