Could 4.10 Update lock the SFS files again and reunite the online community?
 

Okay I know that we can't use the term that begins with the letter M, but it seems that a lot of servers have become fragmented with many different option needing to be installed to allow access?

Would it be possible with the 4.10 update (or 4.11 if necessary) that the game can once more be made 'Vanilla'?

This would mean joining a 4.10 server is just that. You have 4.10, you can log in, no supplementary files required, just 4.10.

I have stayed away from 'out-of-bounds' terminology, but surely this would be a benefit that could get the online community 'united' again?

Cheers, MP

you relay think the all these players will let go their high power P-51s, Spits, Fw190s and flyable bombers and the other stuff ?
i guess no. let it be like it is. the "M" yes or no wars are over IMOH..............

we have 4.09 and il2sl - what else you want?

Sure there is one side HSFX and the other UP, but the problem lies way deeper.

HSFX(-only) user believe they have the holy grail concerning FM, this attitude is not gonna change with 4.10.

When were we splitted anyway?

Hope not,it will not do any good for the game coomunity and may well be buisiness mistake.

1) Probably not.
2) @gprr: "buisiness mistake"??? It's a free patch for a discontinued project. There is no business in that.

I cant see that happening... it is wishfull thinking... but not going to happen... and as long as we have a red mod pack and a blue mod pack.. ..

What would nbe nice would be if a way could be found to lock the stock FMs and still leave room in the code for other .. alterations that have nothing to do with FMs .. like splash screens, mi imaps etc.. but who knows.. some of those options might be in one of thye upcoming patches... we will have an expanded QMB & Zuti offically so who knows..

Ahhh... how the memories of CFS2 come flooding back

Which ones what ?

I've never been a big fan of FM change thingy. If someone found the way to lock up core FM, fine. But prohibiting tens thousands players of having add-on new maps, new aircrafts, better looking cockpits, beautiful effects, smarter AI... just for the sake of some online players is just absurd.

I'm just going to stick to stock releases... I've seen enough of the mods screwing things up online for people that I'm quite ok with just doing things with the stock releases. The good thing in my mind about all of these changes is that some of the teams are using the tools available to pump out some really quality materials - if they do them to the right specifications there isn't any reason in my mind why Team Daidalos can't include them in future releases.

So it's not a bad thing. Some of the Team Pacific works for instance are incredible. I hope to see more from them and others!

To be honest, i don't mind reuniting the community. What i totally object to however is reuniting it by force and implementing an overnight lack of choice.

If the day dawned that i'd lose all that extra content in the form of maps, aircraft and loadouts, i'd simply stop flying IL2 altogether and just wait for SoW.

Not all user made content is high quality, but i'm always in favor of having choices. I don't mind having some low quality stuff thrown in, after all it's free and i can choose not to use it.

Same goes for multiplayer, it's the business of the server admins to decide what kind of gameplay they want on their server and take appropriate action. For example, if a server crew wants to run semi-accurate scenarios that balance historical accuracy with equal chances of winning for both teams, it's their job to design the mission in a way to do that and also to make sure they get the planeset correct. However, this is no different to what was happening before the user made content arrived.

You can have perfectly unbalanced or inaccurate scenarios and planesets with vanilla IL2 as well. Maybe even more so in fact, since you don't have the extra aicraft to balance things out and you end up with a very annoying dilemma: do we ommit team A's aicraft X, that was historically present in the battle, to balance the lack of team B's aircraft Y ,that was also historically used and can match X evenly but is missing from the vanilla version, or do we just bite the bullet and fly the mission with plane X reigning supreme over the rest of the planeset?

It's just that choices are many more today and some people get swamped by them, understandably so i might say. The solution to that however is not to take away features that in one form or another are enjoyed by half the community.

I'd be willing to bet that if the game was locked, hyperlobby would see a marked and very steep decline in the amount of people flying IL2. The community would not be reunited, it would simply shrink to half its size and the foundations set for some pretty bad blood to run, which is not very clever to do a few months before the release of the successor series.

I wouldn't download the 4.10 patch, and just keep playing 4.09 modded. It would be a shame to miss out on the 4.10 content, there are some features and aircraft I'm really looking forward to, but at the end of the day, its not enough that I would choose it over all the mods out there.

Anyway, I doubt DT would want to do that. There is currently a healthy relationship between modders and DT, which has seen a number of projects start life as mods and become part of the official patches, so why ruin a good thing.

This discussion is rehashed every so often, so let's just repeat some facts which never seem to sink in.

1) Authors and/or distributors of the Il2 never authorized modding. According to the EULA, it is actually forbidden.
2) Oleg Maddox expressed his dissatisfaction that the protection was broken on several occasions.
3) Lack of legal action does not imply approval of mods.

UP vs HSFX

There is no more division in the online community that there ever was (IMO). Everyone always had preferences as to what kind of server they wanted to play on, and that has not changed. The only ones who are excluded are the ones who see a cheater behind every cloud, and quite frankly I see no way for Daidalos to fix that.

I'll grant that absolute surety for competitive purposes is gone, but I reiterate, we'll probably never get that back with IL2. Why don't we just kick back and have some fun?

If I sound harsh in this post, I'm truly sorry, but as I've said 100 times before, I don't give a crap if anyone else is cheating as I don't have any money on the outcome of a given fight and I know I'm not cheating.

If some twit needs to cheat to think he has a bigger penis than I do, then that's his problem, as I know the truth. :)

I would like the community to be united, but I don't think very many people will be willing to give up all the additional content the M's bring.

+1

After 4 or 5 years online in the early years of the sim, I have never flown online even ONCE since the hacking and mods, not even on the un-modded vanilla servers as it changed the type of person that played online and the nature of the online game.

2 points to make.

- locking the code with 4.10 will not get players like me back online

- the current mod players with their hotrod spitfires, bar-less fw190's and proton torpedo equipped 0.50 cal (the sort that kills tigers) are never going to give up the mods to play a vanilla 4.10. Those players would just stick to 4.09 modded.


Overall its very much "closing the stable door after the horse has bolted" it would never work and if anything would be detrimental.

It's clear to me that the great "Uniter" will be Storm of War itself.

Without taking anything away from Team Daidalos, and the incredible work completed on 4.10 - I think the "community software split" will only start to be resolved at the relase of SOW.

4.10 will certainly bring folks back to the official product - but how far,and for how long, is not at all clear to me. Things like maps, 6 DOF, or generally what groups (online wars for example) find to be "precious" will drive the population shift.

When SOW is released, the most critical thing it seems to me is:

Will a Core2Duo user with a DX9 video card be able to play along with more capable systems online, or experience the majority of single player depth that those with newer systems will enjoy? I have no expectation or opinion in the least with respect to this attribute of SOW, other than I believe Core2Duo or less compatibility in MP is a very, very tall order. The CPU cycles required for complex atmospheric environments, more detailed FM and the aircraft interaction with the more complex environment - are not insignificant to the hardware, no matter what people may wish - or how brilliant the SOW team is. Add higher fidelity DM and the situation becomes only more challenging for the developer. Oleg and his team pull of miracles all the time - but this - I just don't know.

For MP, you can't have lower FM/environments on some systems and more challenging FM/environments on others. SP maybe, but not MP. The nature of the netcode for MP, is of vital significance to this feature - how much bandwidth will the new higher fidelity features use up? More bandwidth, more money especially in the U.S.A. and particularly with respect to server requirements. Oleg's team has had the best netcode by far in a combat flight sim, but again - who knows.

If owners of more modest systems could, however particpate fully - the nature of all this will be moot and it will be SOW which will quickly capture the users.

Lastly, at some critical point in the future (a complete unknown, IMHO) - one would rather see the genious of Team Daidlos - devoted to SOW rather than Il2.

Who knows the timeline? Only God and perhaps Oleg.

S!

Gunny

https://webspace.utexas.edu/joem/For...erSIG-2010.jpg

And after this statement I really hope that you can testify that none of the TD members/contributors have ever been involved in any kind of modding of IL2, which as you say is illegal?

C'mon, the mods exist - and the thing that splits the community is the fact that we are not allowed to point out that the emperor has no clothes...

Well, I play vanilla 95% of the time but what I would like is the ability to have both without "loaders" etc. There should be some security solution so that I can join an "official" server knowing that no one uses different code than me - but the next session could be on a server with user made content... This is the way other games work, and that is the way I think SoW:BoB will work. If version 4.11 could include this it would for sure unite the community again. Have a mod folder like BF2 for example where the original game actually is treated as a mod like the user made mods... Then make some solution to secure the original files from tinkering and we are set. Thats how to handle the fact that users WILL mod a game if its possible in any way and that is GOOD for the developer if they take care of it. Look at CS? It's a friggin mod - and the cash it generated for Valve in form of sales of the original Half-Life product are enormous (which itself can be seen as a Quake mod ;)).

Well, Spits vs 109 MODS is the server which most people choose to play, usually its over 50 players online

Hmmmmmm, okay I see what you mean, and I agree that the MODS are and have been truly awesome.

I think my problem has been the fracturing of the online community because of the many variations of mods needing to be installed to play on specific servers.

So rather than just seeing a server on hyperlobby and joining it, you have to see which MODs need to be activated, de-activate mods that are already not needed for the server, then join. Server may timeout, so you go to join another server, but you have to change your Mods again, repeat until you get into a server which has players....and then play!

Hmmm, now, I want to join another server....go through the above again.

Look, I have an IL2 'Vanilla' install, a HSFX 4.11 Install and a UP 2.01 install on my Hard-drive. I use the mods for movie-making, but to play online is a real chore unless you use one-server only and stick with the settings.

Sadly, due to other commitments in an IL2 movie, I just haven't been able to get much time online lately, but wondered what the feeling would be to making 4.10 'unified' so that 4.10 Servers can be joined by anyone running 4.10, rather than a multiple switch on and off before even attempting to join?

Cheers, MP

Why do you care? Would it change any of the points I made?
The fact that mods exist means what? Should we do something about it?
Considering what I stated before we have the following options:
1) Ignore mods
2) Introduce new protection scheme to prevent them (at least temporarily)
3) There is no 3rd option

Again: There is a program called IL2 Server Library, which will auto-detect and auto-enable the necessary mods for each server


http://ultrapack.il2war.com/index.php/board,84.0.html

Guys, the community does not wants, ugly textures, horrible sounds
and enviroment, the mods make this game different, that was the reason why the people broke de game code and if you think we want the old il2 return back you are wrong

Okay, missed the first post of this.....but this is very impressive. Thanks for the link......roll on 4.10 ;)

what is the issue about anyway?

Il2 works independently from the Windows registry. If you want to fly stock you can fly stock if you want to fly mods you can fly mods if you want to fly both you can fly both. nobody forces you to do either.

Yes, stick the head in the sand if you like to. Reminds me of the managers at the large record companies that missed the wide open market opportunity that Apple, Spotify etc grabbed from the table in front of them... Soon there will be no market for music that is not online and they will sit there with their "there is no third option" mentality and no customers. I don't think that I have ever heard of a game developer that fights people that wants to create mods for their game? This is actually rather amusing - especially with the bunch of now made "official" mod developers that now rant about the others that are not in the club... Why not work together instead?

Not really where the thread was meant to be heading? More about the fact if everyone has the same install, all servers are available with 4.10. Not a case of changing a setting (or many) before entering a server.

The link above to IL2 Server Library is pretty impressive, although enhancements are allowed on the Warclouds Server, they seem to be disabled when using IL2 Server Library to enter though :(

Cheers, MP

You are overestimating the importance of mods. With a few exceptions like Counterstrike they have no commercial significance, because there are too few people that buy games only when certain mods are available. As for Il2, its commercial value has basically ceased to exist years ago. Your comparison with the music industry is therefore a classic apples-oranges-example.

You also seem to have missed that in recent years, more and more games are closed tightly so that trivial stuff can be sold as "DLC" - the kind that nobody would shell out money for if it could be created by users. Inspired by the console market, where user mods are obviously not possible, this is spreading more and more into the PC games area as well. You don't have to like that development to realize it exists.

Anyway, I don't see where anyone "fights" the mods (any lawsuits I've missed?), and I also don't see where the developer comes into play here as you mentioned, because last time I've checked he's moved on to a new project. Which is quite a heavy investment that now has to compete with free developments of the old engine.

S!

Let this dead and beaten horse rest in peace already :rolleyes: People can still choose which version to use. Being a brownie nose purist or a mod fanboi helps no-one. Just play the damn game your way.

Mods are poison for online games. Those who have played multiple games know this -- but it seems every game community has to learn it the painful way.

S!

Nausicaa, check RoF. They have made it easy. One selection: Mods allowed or not and Apply ;) In IL-2 we just choose to use or not so what's the difference? You want stock then play stock and do not care about the poison servers, very simple. I play both at times just for the fun of it. People use a lot of energy to bash mods and be "the pure and better ones", while modders do not bash TD or their work. Go figure :rolleyes:

Well, that is a good argument - but I really hope that it won't happen to SoW:BoB (and Oleg has said that support for user made content will be built into it).

An example comes to mind hearing the kids shout downstairs in front of the TV playing "Little Big Planet" on the PS3... There are more than 3 million user made levels for that game which is the main reason it still sells like butter - and they sell a load of silly DLC stuff like hats or costumes anyway...

That's pretty much my outlook on things as well. I know the way mods came about was not satisfactory but i can't discount the positive aspects of the whole process just because it started the wrong way.
I'll just use that content to have fun and make sure i fly on servers with a good community and attentive admins to weed out any possible troublemakers.

What Mysticpuma says about the trouble of switching between versions is true however. That's why SoW is going to be mod-friendly from the start.

If i had any say in it, i would choose a server-enforcable list, just like the difficulty settings. A mods folder would be created and all mods placed in there with their own subfolders and maybe a .ini or .txt file for the game to read the mod titles from. So, if i added a freeware mod plane, say a handley page hampden, i would have a c:\SoW\mods\Hampden folder.

Then, when i would run the game i would have a menu option called "mod/add-on management". When i clicked that, a scroling column of all installed add-ons would appear, with an on/off switch next to them. This would permit me to activate/deactivate them from within the game.

Even better yet, a similar list with slightly modified logic would be available to me when hosting a multiplayer session or running a dedicated server. In that list, all mods on the client PCs would be overriden by the host PC and set to off by default, unless the server allowed it. This would essentially prevent the client PC from using anything included in its mods folder unless specifically and individually approved by the server, all running from one version/installation and without the need to exit the game and switch the mods around.

The best thing however is that it would prevent the need for server admins to compile lengthy lists of available mods. By having the server enforced list default to an "off" state, we effectively create a universal base to start from. Then, if the server admin or host would like to enable mods, he would have to specifically state which ones would be changed to an "on" state.
Instead of having to maintain a constantly updating list of available mods, they would only have to maintain the list of mods they would actually use on their server, reducing management time by a wide margin.

This could be done by dropping the relevant files in the server's sow\mods folder so that the game can read them and display them on the server enforced mod list, thereby allowing the host to toggle their state. Alternatively and to save disk space on dedicated servers who only track data and don't have to display any graphics, maybe only the .ini and some data files from each mod could be used to read the mod and enable it, without including the textures and 3d models. Just letting the dedicated server know to allow certain files would be enough, even if these files weren't included on its hard disk.

I'm not a professional software engineer and this is a very simple solution that i came up with in the space of maybe 5 minutes, it is sufficiently modular to allow for expansion and it still allows for good control of what kind of mods people would be able to use without having to exit the game and move files around every time they want to change servers.

I'm sure that if i can come up with something like this, people like TD and the Maddox team can come up with way more refined, elegant and useful solutions for SoW.

LOl, well said mazex, I seem to remember the ... drafting that when on behind the modding community scene as well.

Vast numbers of (strictly) online players are simply waiting for SoW to come out. Myself included. It all came down to - having to install this and that to be able to fly here and there has reached the point - we simply can't be bothered anymore. I know fair amount of people that even stopped playing as soon as the m*** became widespread.

I want a full package that I don't need to update every now and then, and I will gladly take any minor flaws and imperfections that come with it. As long as the emphasis is on the simulation part or overall balance between two sides.

There is no point in beating a 'dead horse', IMO.

While I agree that SOW will be the true re-unifier, There are many of us who are eagerly awaiting 4.10, as it will have many "mod" features that are indeed a very good thing, yet it will end all this UP(blue) vs. HSFX(red) nonsense, not to mention other incompatibilities (two different versions for Zuti 1.13 that do not work with one another on CRT=2 servers, for example) and let those of us who choose to, stop dealing with all the switchers, tools, files, and other assorted hindrances to what is supposed to be a fun pastime. Not the second job it has become, just to get online.

The number of former online players sitting it out because of this crazy mash up of different mods, versions, etc, is far greater than the total mod fanbois think it is.

Be sure.

I prefer stock over modded. In modded games there will always be "über" planes and buggers all over the place.

TD, i'm so looking forward to your hard work! :)

That is very true...

Believe the same as you and Brain.

+ 100

S!

Gunny

Brain said it...

... and my 2 cents : game start when a group of ppl seat around the same table... ;)

Let's cut the story short.
You want DT to officially support and endorse mods? It's not going to happen. Until developers and/or publishers change their views, DT is not in a position to support modding even if we wanted to.

As far as I know Il2 series included officially a significant amount of 3rd party projects (3D objects, maps) long before the modding started. Even a plethora of 3rd party programs was welcomed (HL, DCG, MAT manager...). How is that fighting people that create content for the game? DT hasn't changed that policy.

And finally, I really sympathize with your resentment that now made "official" mod developers get different treatment. I really can't imagine what kind of devious actions they have taken in order to achieve that.

Naturally I'm not talking about TD... Lets end this discussion now. You do a great job and I'm happy that there is still life in the old product while waiting for SoW:BoB!

Undoubtedly true, entire squads disappeared or split with the mods.

However, banning the mods in 4.10 would not fix the old wounds it would split the community even further.

Leave well enough alone.

That applies to me...I must say that I miss the on-line excitement, man against man is sometimes very challenging, and exciting when your teamed up. I'm looking forward to returning to on-line play with SOW...I hope the shi% heads don't ruin it anytime soon.:grin:

...it really is all hopeless isn't it?

Hopeless, BadAim?

I would not go that far.

Myself and a small cadre of friends still find much satisfaction flying together online. Is it like the early glory days of the sim? No. But it is still fun.

It is sometimes not as easy as the old days. I have more than once had someone come into a map I was hosting in the last couple months and somehow manage to fly the Silverplate B29 with unlimited atomic bombs, in a 1940 or '41 plane set, and grind things to a halt. So I just shut down, restart with a password in place and we carry on.

Don't give up hope, it's still fun to fly.

I haven't flew 4.09 vanilia from about one year. And truly speaking I do not regret it.
Mods gives second life for Il2. Im still playing online and with CRT=2 i know that we play still the same game. There are so many servers and all will find what they like. You dont want mods so play 4.09 servers your chooice. If you like UP so you could play Spits vs 109 Mods or great Battle of Britain server with CRT=2. I dont want to back to stock anymore.

S!

Calling modders sh%theads SlipBall..Very slick, even immature. SoW with the certain aspects open for 3rd party additions..they are STILL mods. Like it or not. Mod is a commonly used word for content created by the players and not in a negative way. The start of them could have been better with IL-2 for sure, but nevertheless mods are here.

Maybe I do something wrong or even RTFM, because I have no problems joining mod servers. CRT=2 and Server Library makes it even easier as everyone have the same files and setup. Usually the server has a web page where they list mods used and in some cases in what order enabled via JSGME. How hard is it to take a moment and check it if in doubt?

4.1X will have features that sure interest me and will make me fly stock for a while. But stock does not have the new maps or their repaints, new effects and cockpits for example. Der Wüstenfuchs's Bf109 pits or C6_Claymore's Fw190 refreshes wipe the floor with stock ones, Freddy's new P47 or P51 pits..just to name a few...and they run just fine on my rig. I am not a masochist trying to run IL-2 on a jurassic computer, even today's laptops are better than the minimum specs ;) There are other games too than IL-2 that require a helluva lot more horsepower to run..figure the rest.

... and while doing so exceed official limits so far that they can't even see them as a dot on the horizon anymore. Yeah, and a DB 605 would just do fine in that SLK, wouldn't it? :rolleyes:

Bottom line: That particular genie has been out of its bottle for years now and there's no way to put him back inside.

My opinion is that people that cry now about mods are people that tomorrow will not play SoW BoB cause it will be a too much change for them.

You know... like people that played CS 1 and then "by the guts" felt CS 2 wasn't good. It's "the change" and necessity to adapt to it that puts people off... the rest is just "the justification"... Having mods that does indeed bring few problems is an excellent "scapegoat".

If you play online and you are "annoyed" by cheaters and abusers then is a good sign you play in the wrong room.

Is my belief that most of the whining about mods people play in "easy" dogfights servers surrounded by immature players. I didn't had experienced any "annoying" abusers on virtual wars or established great realistic servers. I'm sure there are "cheaters/abusers" even there but far less cause the "goal" of the game is not "quick 5 minutes runs to the furball" that attract the normal cheat clients.

these are my 2 cets... that probably no one asked for but are for free :P .

+1 fot that. The "mods" unlock what was supposed to be locked, that isn't "nice", but some of the final achievements made by the modding community are marvelous, and improved a LOT the gameplay.

Don't recognize that is live in dark. In 2010 I can't fly in a sim witout 6DOF, an need to have widescreen support without a lot of my "up/down" view taken away.

I never undestand why those two points are isn't some "official" patch, but are in the "MODs". The "official" patch adds new cool contentes, but don't change these two really "patch issues"...

Strange!

I think this is more where I was looking at my thread going. That was exactly the point I was hoping for. I do love the Modifications (as I previously said) and I do know that they have been beneficial to 4.10.
I was thinking along the lines of their being a unified online 4.10 (even if that only includes a 6DoF option and MDS).

Could there not be some 4.10 Server edition that means rather than CRT=2 (anyone with any mod can join), the Server can set CRT=1 and it only activates Mods that are present on the users system that are compatible with the Server.

Basically if you don't have the 6DoF Mod, the Server doesn't kick you, you can still join, it just isn't activated? If you have Mods that the server doesn't allow, they aren't activated but they can be in your Mods folder without kicking you from the Server?

Thoughts on that?

Cheers, MP

The most absurd statement ever IMO. :) It has nothing to do with crying about it. It is just that we can't be bothered any more. In the beginning when we had only one pack it was easy. Hell, flying heavies was loads of fun, but it didn't last very long. Nowadays where every server has different requirements I just can't be bothered. The mere fact we now have a 'red' and 'blue' packs is enough to turn me down.

Those of us that flew before and after mods appeared know the difference. I would gladly trade a encyclopedia of planes where every server has different requirements for a stock game with only 2 flyable planes. Any day of the week.

The bottom line is - mods are great for offline game play, but kill the online uniformity. I long for the times when you could join any givens server with only one version of the game.

For me, IL2's AI is too dumb to play it in offline mode, especially once you start dueling with human opponents. There is no going back.


Amen.


=> Enter SoW.

Once again: DT will not roll out the carpet for Mods. We do not fight them, either, but don't expect DT to code solutions for the modding users. They aren't our target audience.

LoBiSoMeM

6DOF isn't in any official patch because that would mean redoing all cockpits in-game to allow for this. Yes - every single freaking cockpit would have to be redone since DT either does things right according to specs or not at all. And since DT doesn't have the resources (or if it had I doubt we'd want to spend them on this issue) I do not see a realistic chance for that one in an official Il-2 patch. :rolleyes:

I was referring to the pimple faced hackers who cracked the code in the first place.:grin:

S!

csThor, my bottom line is that people should understand we live in 2010 now, soon 2011. Who the hell plays with a crappy computer like that on the IL-2 box? Do people really think the minimum specs on the box means the same that they can use MAXIMUM settings with that rig described there? Hello, anybody home..reality check!

Minimum means most things stripped, no fancy candydandy effects etc. NOT Perfect water on 4 etc. or whatever IL-2 has + no 32x FSAA or 16X AF. And at a resolution of way less than 1920x1200 what I use, for example, . As I have mentioned even a today's medicore not so expensive computer runs IL-2 damn well. So anyone with a crap computer complaining about performance their rig is not even realistically capable of should go play browser games or save up for an uprade..or is saving money something today's people are incapable of? ;)

MP..it is easy to be the purist stock guy, just have an installation of pristine 4.09m then copy the folder and apply mods to that one. Far easier because I have chosen the servers I play on and they use practically the same set = not much to fiddle with :)

And who buys a SLK, the last true DB engines were made ages ago ;) I prefer BMW anyway.

EDIT: SlipBall, got it ;) :D

Minimum settings means that the cockpit uses EXACTLY same amount of textures and video memory as the perfect settings. There is no LODs or low res textures for pits like there is for pretty much everything else.

Putting some overkill pit repaint of 200Mb to official patch means that everyone is stuck with that. After this move we would see mods which would restore the original light weight textures, since not everyone can upgrade their PCs every six months.

I think this conflict is like protestantism and catholicism, one splitted from the other. There was a big conflict in the start but now one respects each other. I think they must be splitted at least,not forced by one side to be united( It would be awesome but I think Its impossible)

S!

In my experience the most FPS hit comes from smoke, explosions, ship guns and cities in IL-2, not the cockpit alone. But anyways, there are 2 installs so I can use both stock and modded game. Win-win :) Easiest upgrade for IL-2 player is to get a nVidia card as IL-2 is optimized for it. the difference to ATI can be quite big on certain scenarios. Friends of mine run on "lesser" nV series like 8800GT or Ultra and still get close to the AMD offerings even today with far less price. So no need to cycle every 6mth, just use NV for IL-2 and you can not go wrong ;)

Exactly the same for me.Without mods,I would have given up on il2 long ago.With the mods,its (almost) like a new sim.
The early days of the mods was messy,but now with UP and jsgme its easy.

i didnt use MODs for a very long time, my 99,9% online flying (and i fly only online) is COOP in the VOW. VOW is 4.09 default (unfortutnalty 4.10 wasnt released before the actual run of it :( ).

VOW is dieing unfortunatly.....for whatever reason (missions are biased, bad planeset, bad missions - the typical online war complain stuff i guess , and sure, the MODs)
and COOP online wars a rare nowadays :(
so, to fly the dogfightservers (man, i am so fast boored to hell on these.......) most populated in the HL, you are forced to have a MOD.

and its true, nowadays they are easy to use , huge download ;) , but easy to install and use.
but for me personaly they bring nothing realy new. They are just needed to be able to join.
anyway, there are here and will stay . Thats ok.
and the most servers will stay 4.09 till "their" MODs are able to run at 4.10 IMHO !

Unfortunately I agree.Not many servers will run 4.10 until a new UP or HSFX modpack is released.

At least dedicated servers will be able to run official MDS v4.10 hopefully pulling in the v4.09m fliers.
Problem is vanilla fliers wont really know what MDS is about, it can be a steep learning curve.

Maps were the only reason I use a non standard version of IL2, as the game was getting boring with limited theatres the maps bought new life to IL2 1946.

If you're talking about offline gameplay then yes, by all means. Mods are perfect for offline game. In online game play there is no place for them.

When you look at it, it is sad what mods did to IL2 regarding online play. Those who still play keep to themselves with their own mod packs and to their own squadrons. Times where you could join any server and just pick up a plane and fly are long gone.

That is the reason why IL2 is still alive, if it would have remained in original state there wouldnt hardly be anyone online compared to what we now have. I have multiple IL2 installs on my harddrive, including one UP 2.01 another patched 4.09m ( ready for 4.10) and one Il2 where I experiment, I fly the 2.01 99% of the time, simply because it's awesome both online and offline for my campaigns, and 1% in the experimental IL2 one.

Divided community is for the best, it has been so for too long anyways to re-unite somehow.

These are my feelings on this subject aswell.

I have to disagree, especially with the last part. As you can see we did get 4.09 and 4.10 should come out eventually. Although slow, but updates do exist. We can debate what would have happened if it had happened - the bottom line is: only people who benefited from the 'prolonged' life are people who play offline. For us onliners, the game didn't need no 'prolonging'. We had it fine just the way it was.

Once you taste online teamwork with humans vs. human opponents, not to mention online campaigns - offline gameplay soon becomes ridiculous and not worth mentioning (as far as IL2 goes). ;)

It was predictable and has happened before in other games.

Basically you have the equivalent of trying to run a national football league where everyone can write their own rules, most state competitions have a home town rule set (squad servers) and the best you can get is groups of players agreeing on using the same rules (UP etc) except there are several different groups each with a different rule set.

Problem is whilst some teams still use the old national football rules many teams LIKE their own rules and would refuse to play if a national set of rules was re-introduced. Some players prefer no rules at all and in fact believe what makes a great player is being able to make up your own rules.

Precisely. As soon as the word come out it was just a matter of time. In the beginning when there was only one pack things more or less still worked.

Offline players are the source for new online players, dont forget that, to maintain high level of offline players we need mods ( Apparantly ), I know of many people who enjoyed offline so much thanks to mods that they wanted to go flying online, they joined our group and now fly online campaigns along with us. The pure online flyers are in thin numbers compared to all these groups with different mods ( although the standard seems to be 2.01 )

I have to agree that those like youself Thor benefited from the non split up online community, and would have liked to keep it that way, but that is just not the puplic opinion apparently, that's why we end up here with the divided community, so locking a game up would certainly not be good for the majority of the online players.

Sven

I think Oleg said it best...these people don't realize what they did to on-line play:grin:

and they still don't get it! LOL

That is because the majority of people who once played are now just waiting for SoW, playing something else... Playing IL2 with all the latest mods is like having a part time job now.

It has nothing to do with public opinion - if there is no control then there is anarchy. Anarchy might not be the best word to describe it but it comes close. With stock we had a control over what was available to every player out there and thus equal playing field.


I never said that the locking of the game is a good idea. I do agree on the part that offline players feed online player numbers.

I play only offline, and I have not ever used mods. That may be in part because I don't know them, but then again, I don't know because I haven't been interested enough to look for them. I'm currently using the stock 1946 disk install (4.07?), I installed up to 4.08 once, but reinstalled Windows since then and I can't be bothered to install and install and install to get up to the current version.

To get up to the current version you need to install two patches... 408m and 409m. After that I guess if you did want the MOD stuff that'd be countless amounts of installs and tweaking.

In any case bog standard IL-2 1946 comes with so much content. Yes I want more but I'm enjoying what I've got right now. So much potential and 4.10 with all of that new content will be really great to have in a full out release.

Sad but true and things seem to have just gone a bit haywire from there. I would have loved to see a more dedicated group try to organize overall efforts (I was part of a community where the source code of the game was made available by the developer and there is a dedicated coding group that handles all of the "official" MOD releases) but that doesn't seem to have happened. There are several groups and they don't always talk to each other which is really too bad.

I guess these days I just play on one server and I know what my experience is going to be. Works alright for me.

At the risk of getting hated on, I'd like to offer a different view.

I'm a "semi-casual" offline gamer, which I believe is an underrepresented demographic on this forum. I'll admit to enjoying "unofficial additions" to the game, but I also agree that many of them are of poor quality. I can also see how they can easily upset the status quo in the online community.

It seems to me that the big deal is to make sure that everyone's playing nicely with each other, regardless of the purity of their IL2 installation with respect to the EULA. What I do offline doesn't matter to anyone, except perhaps the IP lawyers at UbiSoft and 1C. Were I to venture online, though, I'd want to play with people of want to play the same game.

What's needed are better tools to not only restrict or allow [censored "m-word"], but also tools to better reward good online behavior and punish misbehavior. Basically, tools for "community-building." With that in mind, I propose the following:

1) Better server tools for detecting and allowing/disallowing "fan-inspired add-ons." The same server tools could also be set to allow or disallow certain online cheats/annoyances, such as triggering wingtip smoke, or possibly even "camping." (Set the game to recognize an attack with guns at less than X altitude within Y meters of an enemy base.)

2) Some form of trusted user system for a particular servers. Basically, a rating system you can use for opponents you know to be honorable. Once you get enough "respect" you have limited ability to act as a "referee" - flagging misbehavior or potential cheating - not just by enemies, but by friends. Note that this doesn't just include cheating, but also vulching, camping, team-killing and all those other wonderful online felonies.

The sysadmin can set it so that enough flags from trusted users can result in bad actors being punished or even booted from the server. Yes, there should also be a way of losing trusted user status for abusing your privileges.

Likewise, there should be a way of sharing good or bad "karma" between trusted server networks. If you've got a reputation for honorable play, it should carry over from game to game and server to server. If you've got a reputation for being a jackass, that should carry over, too.

3) Some way of identifying or punishing potential cheaters in the game short of being kicked off the server. For example, if a potential cheater has been flagged twice, the sysadmin might set it so his plane emits red smoke, or his landing gear drops, or his engine loses 20% of its power, or his guns jam, or AI takes control of his plane.

Basically, if you just kick a cheater of a server, he'll just log into another server, or go drown some cute kittens, or poison candy, or something else. If you neutralize his advantage while still letting him play, you really make it no fun for him. He's more likely to log out voluntarily and take up a new hobby like pouring kerosene down anthills or dropping bricks off highway overpasses.

Obviously, the concept of imposing punishment is easily abused, which is why it has to be imposed communally by the sysadmin and several trusted users.

4) Some way of of amicably settling FM/DM debates so that red/blue performance debates become a matter of personal (or sysadmin/mission builder) choice rather than the stuff of flame wars. Each plane has its own quirks and its performance can change slightly based on a number of factors. Historical performance data represents glimpses as to what a particular model of plane is capable of doing, not a comprehensive history of the series.

I'd love to see a system where the user (or the mission builder or the sysadmin) could alter the FM/DM performance of each plane by +/-10% from "stock." That would nicely model both the benefits of a factory-fresh plane with a carefully tuned engine and a fresh wax job and the miseries of flying a war-weary hangar queen tanked up with inferior fuel. Better yet, have a system which randomly alters plane performance from stock, so you don't know the quirks of your individual plane until you've put it through its paces.

Finally, I'll also point out that many of the features in the 4.09 and the 4.10 patches started life as "grassroots-derived supplements." I can see many other such additions becoming "official" in future patches - especially the wealth of wonderful new maps which open up entire new theaters of war. Locking the SFS files would kill all that, and would just drive the modder and "purist" communities farther apart.

wow your trying to make an example and then nullify everyone else's opinion?
Why did you even post then; as if it's your way or the highway attitude?
"Why do you care?" why did you even post if ya didn't want a response?

By the way Maddox's never said he disliked the mods or was disappointed.
I believe his exact words were it's interesting. He liked the improvements and relished in the fact that allot of stuff they couldn't finish because of money and time, was implemented.
read his interviews.

Selective reading, Mastiff. He was also not thrilled that the previously relative security online is no longer. It was not only positive ...

Whatever the Mods did for giving the sim new legs the division within the community the red vs blue mentality has put asunder. It can be put as simply as Mustangs vs 109's. Don't get me wrong having later marks or even earlier ones gave plenty to the mission builders and the maps were sorely needed, a lot of talent out there. But, they couldn't agree on anything, they had to put their own opinions into the mix and that doesn't work. I believe that the Original Mustang isn't correct but I have never flown one so it's only my opinion and nothing more. I like having a 4 engine Bomber even with a B-25 cockpit but that isn't what Oleg intended to do with his sim. If he had we'd have a lot of stuff with just plain wrong data and incorrect models. Yes the sim is old and he is making a new one to replace it and the fact that TD is carrying the torch now doesn't mean we should expect them to change the house rules about what is allowed. I will have two installs when the 4.10 comes out; one vanilla, and one Modded because I like the extra content. I'm sure that there will be servers for both, unfortunately some servers will be so specialized as to be impossible to match unless you already know what they are running. Will I be angry about it? Will I register my protest that it should all be locked back to vanilla? No, and why should I care what one squad does with their game or even a dozen squads in a myriad of possible add-ons? look at Red Baron, European Air War they are still hanging in there and getting new content from people who like to play those old sims as dated as they are. One day IL-2 will be like them and people will be on a forum like this begging for SOW to be locked again while some third party is making content for it. It seems rather pointless to argue about it from that perspective. The Mods aren't going to dissappear, they will only grow and grow complaining or begging for a lockout isn't going to do any good it's because of them that we even have new content to look forward to, embrace the now.

I totally agree with you. There are offliners and onliners. Can't satisfy them all. And i don't think SOW is gonna be the solution for this matter. If people like SOW, it will be modded too. So the problems will arise again.

We've got IL2 stock and a lot of mod packs for IL2. To be honest i don't like the "uber" players on many servers and i don't like people who say they got the best FM. We can never "feel" the aircraft, so it's an endless discussion.

I still enjoy my best sim every minute. When SOW is released i will see if it's better. Maybe i don't like the gameplay, who knows. Besides that, for 2010 standards, i'm not that impressed with screenshots and movies.

For now, i certainly got better things to do than all these speculations.

Please be satisfied with what we've got right now and show some respect for Team Daidalos.

I never saw any official welcome. And I'm sure no financial support either.

1. HL (Hyperlobby), was there before IL2 Stumo v1.0 and was picked up by IL2 users because the UBI servers were useless and ended up dysfunctional almost from day 1 of IL2.

2. Lowengrin's DCG from CFS series was before IL2 v1.0 and developed for IL2. After Starshoy stopped supporting and developing IL2's Ngen and Dgen, Lowengrin filled a gap desperately needed from stock unsupported DCG.

3. Mat Manager was initially a useful program to make the default aircraftmarking look reasonable and enable the Swastika/Hakenkreuz.
it later developed into a bigger program for tweaking the games settings.

So none of these are included as content that required the SFS to be altered just programs that filled the slow failings of IL2 as it evolved and become full of bugs and out of date unsupported code.


I like to see new DT content added, but fixing some of the old stuff first would be nice too :)
.

IL2 was on the marked for 10 years before it got modded (SFS files cracked). Unless SoW's code gets cracked soon after release I doubt we will see any mods for it, especially with every add-on that will follow. Not until it stops getting official updates, like IL2.

Seeing your comment on '2010 standards' speaks for itself, and would be a waste of typing to comment on.

S!

I personally don't see any division and don't understand what the big fuzz is about. I have UP and whenever I need to go to a stock server (very often actually), I just enable the "stockyness" from JSGME.


-Untamo

Just what i do, no problem at all. I can't really wish for more with all the different IL2 packs we've got right now. Well ehm... triggers... cough... ;)

@ THOR : About SOW graphics is my opinion, i see better these days. SOW will be modded too, it will only take some time (maybe years).

Sarcastic and bad faith mode on : If the planes had decent sounds and the FW190 had no bar in front of its gunsight, people wouldn't have cracked the code...

Sarcastical mode off : Honestly, mods brought a lot, even if I don't use them all. I enjoyed being able to fly at last french aircrafts, even if it was with an italian cockpit and if their FM is not totally accurate. It's just good to be able to do it.

Unlike Il-2, SOW is designed to be modable. It surely won't take years. At max a few months until Oleg releases the third party tools.

Thank God Oleg isn't bothered by that. I couldn't care less if the graphics look 3 years old - as long as the gameplay is right on the money. If you do not like it stick to the IL2, I know I wont.

It depends on how you define 'modable'. If you think that you will be able to change FM's, sounds etc. - think again. To my understanding - for general public it will be customizable, not modable at all. ;)

Like others stated, Oleg is fully aware what mods did to this game.

Third party developers will be able to make completly new planes with their own fm. This can also be used online, there will just be a protected online mode with certified stuff. So the best of both worlds.

From the last simhq interview with Oleg:
http://www.simhq.com/_air11/air_341b.html

I stand corrected then. :)

I do have to applaud to Oleg's vision. I know this is still planned, what we will have once game is release it still remains to be seen.

Personally I am all in for the added content by third party developers, but changing the certified (stock) FM parameters - that I am not sure if it is a good idea. And the interview doesn't say clearly if this will be possible with just the added content (3rd party planes) or also with the original planes, vehicles etc...

It would always depend on how "real" the stock model is.

There are countless examples in Il2 where stock is nonsense.
(Just yesterday I learned that the I-185 71 reverses its temperature when heating "up" strting at 110°C and going down to 20°C, which will prevent an overheat when radiators are closed.)

And it would be a pity if they were not corrected to RL as much as possible.

Problem, Emil, is that too many people think they were fed pure wisdom instead of milk as a baby and do consider themselves the only "expert" on the issue. This is why I have stomach cramps with modding in combat flight sims in general since there are several sets of tainted glasses (one LW-tainted, one USAAF-tainted, one RAF-tainted, ...). ;)

Be that as it may... It is a proven fact that people can't be trusted on matters like this. If you allow them to change parameters in order to fix small bugs like this - there is just no stopping them. Everyone will have their 'own little bug to fix', and the overall purpose of this would go a miss.

I sincerely hope that this option of locking the server to the certified content only will work like advertised and won't be possible to crack (will be frequently updated with every add-on).

I for one am willing to fly with minor imperfections and bugs as long as they aren't show stoppers. If the IL2 was to have its support prolonged by Oleg and his team, there weren't issues with Grumman, etc. - I am willing to believe that many of the bugs would have been squashed.

Same goes for SoW - these kind of bugs will be fixed with patches and are by no means an excuse to allow people to fiddle with FM when it compromises online gameplay.

This goes both ways, doesn´t it?

I don´t consider a superplane that can never overheat as a minor bug.
It´s a big bug when it comes to game-play.

Threre are plenty of other examples:

La-5 series using only later engines(charecteristics).

Weapons not having the power they should have:
MG151/20mm having only half its historical power.
8,65 hits/kill for a fighter and 55,7 hits/kill for a B-17.
Historically half the amount of bullets were needed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MG_151_cannon

etc., etc. etc.
(this isn´t about Luftwining btw. but about historical accuracy)

All this is changeable, but yet not being done.
It´s just a question of time until someone says I want it correct.

:confused:

I always have to keep them closed, or wait till it overheats and then close them?

I think this is going to be my last post in this thread as people obviously don't read what I write. And on top of it all Wikipedia is being listed as an reliable source.

Besides, I've gone OT enough as it is. :)


And to think that people say that picture is worth a thousand words, this is just the opposite of that... :)

Try it.

T}{OR,
Obviously you don't know what you are talking about so indeed, any more posts are not needed.

There are many things in game that are not only "buggy", but wrong (intentionaly or not) , not only by comparison with the rest content of the game.

For example the pylons in Soviet fighters have Zero, yes 0, weight while the others have 150Kg of weight, even for a small rail.

So doesn't this "bother" you for "on-line" game?

The list is big enough but no need to go off topic.