Are you running ATI 5870, 6870 or Nvidia 460?
 

First, can I only have replies from people running the above cards. I really want to get away from hearsay and second hand opinion (no offence meant).

Second I couldn't find a general Technical Issues Section, they all seem to be specific-game related so as an IL-2 / SoW player I've posted here.

I am trying to decide which Video card to buy within my budget. I had settled on the 5870 for performance reasons (excluding Tesselation and 3D which I don't think I need for SoW). All reviews I have read rank the cards as:-
1. ATI 5870
2. ATI 6870
3. ATI 460

examples:-
http://www.hardware-infos.com/grafikkarten_charts.php
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/...50,2782-7.html
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/...arts,2776.html
http://www.visualdreamers.com/news/a...-6870-vs-5870/

So the answer would seem fairly obvious. However my supplier is pushing me hard towards the 460 on the basis of ATI driver problems and 6870 performance issues;
" the most sensible purchase at present is a GTX460. The 6000's are plagued with performance issues at present and as an early adopter on a new card, you'll be hit with driver updates, fixes and frequent bugs. You get what you pay for in the graphics card industry, like many things in life but given the spec I really think you'd be cutting your nose to spite your face by going ATI. "

That runs against everything I have read (except ATIs reputation on drivers!).

So can you reply with "I am running the xxxxx card"

and tell me your experience regarding drivers, performance, reliability, heat etc., and where you think ATI/Nvidia are with the drivers for your card.

Please keep it to the point to make it easier for me to take in :)

Proposed system spec:
Intel i7 950 3.06GHz overclocked to 4.2GHz by supplier (o/c under warranty)
Prolimatech Megahalems Rev B,Super 6 Heatpipe Tower Cooler
6Gb DDR3 RAM
XFX 5870 GPU....... ???????????????
ASUS Sabertooth mobo
SSD for the OS and Flying software (IL-2, FSX, SoW)
600w Silverstone Tech. Element PSU (4 x PCIe 6 pin connectors for a future second card)
Coolermaster HAF 912 case
plus DVD R/W and a couple of HDDs I already own for other stuff (photos etc)

It's based around a Scan.co.uk "3XS SLIK i7 X58 950 BlackOps Bundle"

Budget is around £1100-1200.

Many thanks.

You're on the mark about adopting a first production card from a new series. I usually try and get the follow-up in the series since most of the bugs (if any) are ironed out with the next card. With today's technology and programs they can pretty much find an issue with a card before they even make it (circuit sims and such) so a first of the series "lemon" is hardly likely these days.

As far as driver issues go, ATI earned that bad reputation about 11-13 years ago and it seems it will never lose it despite stellar work from 2000 onwards. I've had about 10 ATI cards and 6 Nvidia cards since 1998 (and two 3DFX cards) and for the most part I've had nearly as many driver issues with Nvidia as ATI (given the number of ATI cards I've had compared to Nvidia it's expected).

The 460 is a nice card, and the price isn't bad, but you can get more for less with ATI at this point in time.

I am running with a 5870. No specific issues at all. It's plenty fast, nice and quiet and coming down in price so excellent value.

All cards have driver issues here and there and are usually corrected pretty quickly in driver updates. I have never noticed any specific issues with the 5870.

Previously to owning this card I always had Nvidia. I'm brand agnostic and always go for the best performing card I can afford be it AMD (ATI) or nvidia.

one thing I would add though is that with the GTX580's just hitting and the ATI 6970's just around the corner. This is bound to depress the prices on the 460, and 5870 even further so hanging on might get you one cheaper.

If you are thinking of buying for SOW then I'd say hold on till it's nearer release. You'll get more bang for your buck.

I am running the 5870 card baby!
 

First of all, driver issues with ATi is a long gone problem with IL-2 ever since 10.8 came out. Those who still suffer from problems with an ATi card running IL-2 has to blame something else pl0x, because it sure as hell ain't the drivers. Your supplier needs to get with the times. I play both RoF and IL-2 on 10.8 drivers, all maxed out(Perfect Landscape in IL-2) on my 5870 with no hassles what-so-ever.

The fastest card you have among those three, OP, is the 5870. The 6870 is a revised and improved 5770, and a GTX460 is similar(give or take) to a 5850 performance-wise.

What you CAN do to be on par with upcoming SoW's DX11/tesselation is to up a notch on the GTX. The GTX470 is a powerful card, and surpasses the 5870 in many areas except heat and power consumption. The 5xxx series ATi is a bit immature in DX11/tesselation and when game devs really start running DX11, I'm going to upgrade my card as well. The GTX470 also scales extremely well so that's a great upgrade possibility for you if you should decide to run two cards in the future.

My specs:

Q9550 @ 3.7gHz
8GB RAM
1GB ATi 5870
Gigabyte UD3P(P45 chipset) motherboard.

I've had no reliability issues at all with my 5870 and it runs very nice and cool on water. The stock fancoolers on them are good enough though but nowadays there are many versions of the 5870 on the market with upgraded coolers, so I'd go for one of those instead. Doesn't cost much more than a stock card.

Finally, it would help us if you posted your computer specs though. If you're going to buy a new graphics card, other components should be in the same league.

S!

If playing other games too than IL-2 then the choice would be the new AMD card. It gives quite a good performance for the buck at the moment and is faster than the nVidia 460GTX(non-OC). I use now for a moment 5870HD, my 480GTX was bought out of my computer! :D Waiting now for either 580GTX or the new 6XXX series coming soon..or the Kepler from nVidia. Shall see..

It was a moment of wtf when I installed the 5870HD again :D It is so quiet compared to the nVidia vacuum cleaner ;) Nevertheless nVidia will for sure improve their performance per wattage in the upcoming Kepler thus less noise and heat.

Yes! I don't know how that old "ATI drivers are horrible" rumour still persists!

Also if you can bear it, (depends on when SOW comes out), wait for the next flagship card to appear on the market, that's when all the current flagship cards really take a price dive.

Personally I'm going to wait 6 months if I can stand it before making my own SOW gaming rig.

Something to keep in mind as we head into Dec and early next year...

The new 580s just hit the street... I own one and upgraded from my 480 as it was still under the store return policy. There is little doubt that Nvidia will release 560s 570s to compete with ATI's lates releaes of the 6800 series...

These cards if they use the revamped GF110 with disabled features you're looking at signifigant advantages across the board. Add in the cost factor of these new chips and Nvidia is a very good position to take more from the mid market card arena. Just looking at the raw numbers a 570 would be 29 percent faster than a 470 at a much lower price point. That would be faster than a 5870.

Check out this short article.

http://www.bit-tech.net/blog/2010/11...ch.net+feed%29

29% faster you say? LoL,

I'm 57.1334% impressed.

Hey if klem has an unlimited budget, he should just go for what's fastest at this point in time. He did mention that awful word "budget" though and if we're going to jump on the "future" card-train, we'll be in for a long haul. :)

NV 480...and it cuts thru games like butter:grin:

but now the 580 is out and it's cheaper than the 480 and faster to boot.

sorry, I didn't mean that to put urs down, just that obviously the 580 is now the one to get if you are going NV.

In a few months it will be 600. And so it goes. I've always been happy with NV.

Good luck with that :)

Damn. Now I will probably have to wait for Nvidias Kepler GPU released in first half of 2011 which is in 28nm instead of 40nm.

Reputedly, it will have more than double the power.

One thing we must remember is these GPU manufacturers have to sell stuff to make profits.

The difference is going to be minimal between monthly releases of these GPU's

The only way you will see a real difference is over a 12 month span or completely renewing your PC every time a new GPU comes out with the latest and fastest everything :)

I am pressurized into holding stock from manufacturers on sale or return these days as they know there's too many products out there and the market is swamped with out of date motherboards CPU's and GPU's too much for smaller business like mine to hold stock out of my own pocket as its all redundant after 3 months some times.

Don't let the hype confuse you into buying ..................

Good advice bro!

I have a 5850 in my racing/sim rig and a 5870 in my work PC. The ATI card is the way to go in the $300 price range. The new NVidia 580 is looking like an awesome card but it should be at the price point it's coming in at over $500. Plus with NVidia you cannot do multi-screen gaming without SLI so basically $1000 in cards to do 20% more than what one ATI card can do for $300.

For reference I run an E7400 CPU at 3.8GHz with the 5850 and run IL2 at 5760x1080 on the highest detail level across three screens and average around 60fps. Can go higher if I overclock the 5850 but there's no need. The 5870 is even better.

Running two 5870's in crossfire, no problems what so ever with any game I run.

Was thinking of getting 2 x 580's just to see how nVidia is now and to play with CUDA, but I'm staying with ATI.

Klems proposed new rig spec
 

Sorry guys I should have posted those details:-

Intel i7 950 3.06GHz overclocked to 4.2GHz by supplier (o/c under warranty)
Prolimatech Megahalems Rev B,Super 6 Heatpipe Tower Cooler
6Gb DDR3 RAM
XFX 5870 GPU....... ???????????????
ASUS Sabertooth mobo
SSD for the OS and Flying software (IL-2, FSX, SoW)
600w Silverstone Tech. Element PSU (4 x PCIe 6 pin connectors for a future second card)
Coolermaster HAF 912 case
plus DVD R/W and a couple of HDDs I already own for other stuff (photos etc)

It's based around a Scan.co.uk "3XS SLIK i7 X58 950 BlackOps Bundle"

Budget is around £1100-1200.

Really good replies guys, thanks. I'll keep collecting them over the weekend :)

The high performance ATI 6xxx cards (6890 - 6970) have not been released yet. The 6870 is an upgraded 5770 (not 5870) so I wouldn't go there. The 5870 is a good card using the up-to-date drivers and I will buy another and Crossfire them if the new game supports that.
I can't comment on the green side; I'm strictly an Ati fangeezer :)

Hey no prob Brando. As you can see, there's plenty of Nvidia fanboys showing themselves here. I'm just a whore. :grin:

This is like a typo - $1000 of 580 SLi will give you a whole lot more than 20% on an AMD card, I assume you meant $500 on a single 580 giving 20%. I appreciate you need 2 580s for 3 screens, but you also get a ton or power too (and SoW will use it). If you were wanting Nvidia for 3 screens and didn't want the power, you'd get 2 460s.

So you havent got the PC yet. Have you got a link to that system? I've been onto Scan and clicked on the 3XS, then SLIK links, and they have a couple of systems at a very high price.

If having the PC custom made is the right way for you, I wouldn't want to stop you, but I'd just like to check it's what you need. I know you get to keep a warranty, but that comes at a hefty price, and learning to OC an i7 is easy (if you have to little time, and too much money, fair enough - and in that case get a 580 or 6970).

I've bought all of my gear from Scan and have a similar (cheaper) system. Will you consider going crossfire/SLi in the future? If so, you'd want a more powerful PSU, but 600 should be ok for a top single card. The thing is, people are needing pretty decent cards to run IL2, as it's developed over the years. There's no reason to think that SoW won't also become more hungry as time goes by, and getting a decent card now, with the ability to add another in a couple of years would be nice.

I hadn't replied until now on your choice of cards because you only wanted to hear from those who had the same cards, but the thread seems to have gone past that now :) The 6870 and 460 are nice mid range cards, and double up nicely (CF/SLi), but if you were only going for 1 card I'd think the expensive system you're considering deserves a little more. The 5870 is better (and more expensive), but doesn't scale as well (if you later add a second). If that's your budget, I think you'd be better off waiting a month for the 6950 or so (unless you can get a 5870 for a good price, and you don't feel the need for better, or a future crossfire setup).

I've got a question.

Does a DX11 graphic card with tesselation use the tesselation capacity for the normal graphics where it's not needed or is it "wasted" graphic power?
Hope you understand what i mean.

The card companies know how to price their stuff. The expensive cards always look very tempting, the cheap cards cheap and the mid-point cards cost-effective.

Also, while new cards coming on the market make the prices of old ones drop, they know to drop the price just a little initially to catch the price-conscious but impatient buyer. I'd guess it'll be Mar or Apr before you see nice discounts on 5870s.

Whatever card you get, it'll still give the same graphical quality in a few years; games move on but cards don't go backwards.

I'm very happy with my HD5870. I'd advise a cheap vanilla version; I can get 915 MHz Core/1310 MHz memory from mine without overvolting using MSI afterburner which works with non-MSI cards as well. A slight overvolt allows 930MHz core or so, but that's the limit pretty much and another card might not even make that.

This O/C gives +7.3% on Furmark 1.8.0 with post F/X and displacement mapping active, +9.3% without them. That beats many of the higher priced versions on the market. I don't run the o/c normally because it's not needed, but there's a little overhead there even if it's not as much as the 5850.

MSI Afterburner + HD 5850 should get really nice performance. Edit msiafterburner.cfg to read:

and it'll allow you to go past the BIOS-specific clock limit which is restrictive on the 5850. There's no risk of damaging the card unless you do something nuts. I'd never o/c'd anything before Feb, but there are simple guides on the web.

dduff

This is a very well put together machine. I say that because I am upgrading my PC in the next couple of weeks and this is exactly what I am moving to ;) The only tweak I would make would be a 700W power supply as 600 is right on the edge if you have joysticks, TrackIR, pedals etc. attached as those draw additional power. Also make sure that Megahalems fits with the mobo.

I'm of a mind that a little bump of the budget for the Vid card, or even scaling back on the hardware would serve you well on this rig. While the SSD is all well and good, would you trade graphics goodness for load times? I'm running a GTX 470 right now on a much tamer rig and get great results on everything but ROF, which looks fantastic, but chokes on my dual core. (balance is the key Grasshopper)

My main concern, is we don't have SOW yet, so we don't know how top heavy the programming is. We know that it will have pretty strong demands on graphics, but how much processing power and memory will all of the FM, DM, etc. improvements need?

Just a couple of thoughts. (I know you only wanted to hear about the cards themselves, but a balanced system will serve you well, especially with a flight sim)

Edit: Oh yeah, thanks maclean, I forgot about the PS, I might even go for an 800 or 850 to give you plenty of overhead for upgrades.

...where is the 5970!!!
 

All those cards can bow down and praise my 5970, its still on top :cool:

My 5870 runs everything I have great, RoF being the most demanding (maybe) with IL2 (modded) not being much of a challenge. Planning on a second 5870 when the rig starts to slow down - or I wind up with some bored cash - lol. I've been very happy with it and recommend it highly. The drivers, by the way, are well developed, if you were wondering.

First, thanks to you all again for your comments.

I'd like to keep this on the GPUs but of course, related system comments are helpful.

I have been building this spec for a few weeks with a limited budget in mind. In cutting edge terms it's a moderate system as I always seem to build :) I don't have masses of money and this is a 5-year-one-off excercise again :)

Triggaar,
I usually build my own. I proposed my parts list to Scan, looking for a discount 8) and they came back with an adaptation of their Black Ops system. Their core product was an Asus Sabertooth mobo, i7 950 o/c to 4.2GHz, 6Gb memory, plus the other bits I wanted. I think theirs was cased but they put in the case I asked for, they seem flexible. After my initial enquiry to their Sales contact point on their website the rest was done on email exchanges.

The o/c comes as part of the package.

I can't find the one that most closely matched my offer, it was there a few days ago:
http://3xs.scan.co.uk/Category.asp?S...rCategoryID=20

I think I'm likely to wait the rest of this month to hear about the 6970 "due for release in November". It should top the 5870 and is optimised for Tesselation although Oleg has just stated that SoW doesn't use Tesselation but "could be considered for about 4-5 years time upgrade" if I interpret him correctly. See last Fridays Update post.

Hecke
I'm only guessing but I don't know that unused Tesselation capability will free up any resources for the other graphics needs.

dduff442
I'm not experienced enough at o/c a GPU. I tried with my 2 7800GTs but didn't get far before artifacts and temperature began to give problems.

maclean525
The AMD website stated a 500W PSU for a 5870 system and I went 600w to allow for one more 5870 in the future. I have a 750w in the cupboard but it doesn't have four 6pin PCIe lines (although I think I can adapt the molex 4 pins for a second card). I'll look at a larger PSU though. Mind you I think the 6000 series take less power so it may depend on my final GPU decision.
The cooler comes as part of the bundle, fitted tested and working - have you seen the size of that cooler??!! :)

I agree on price drops, in the short/medium term the 5970, 580, etc won't drop into my budget although I might save a little money waiting for the new stuff to hit the market. But my fingers are itching :)

Badaim
keeping my 7200rpm WDS's instead of getting the SSD would save me £120 but wouldn't help with buying a 5970 or 580 which are double the price of what I am considering. So I'll take the faster load and hopefully a few less 'new aicraftr joined' etc pauses. Anyway FSX takes 2 full minutes to load off my current HDDs :(

The latest videos from Oleg are pretty impressive on what he seems to refer to as modest system and I would take that right now on a 5870 if it will.

JG52Krupi
stop bragging ! :)

Everyone else
Thanks.

Actually what matters most is to have a balanced system. For example, having a 5970 won't do you much good if you run demanding games on a dual core with 2GB of RAM, as the PC is like a pipeline that moves data around from one component to the next: it's only as fast as it's slowest component, because if the components don't match well in speed you have bottlenecks where one of them is waiting for data from another, instead of moving data back and forth at a more stable flow.

Sure, this all depends on what kind of games you run as well (what their dependence is on CPU or GPU, etc), but overall it's better to have a balanced PC instead of one with 1-2 components that stick out way above the rest (unless you are in the process of partially upgrading it that is).

This gives you the most amount of usage for all this processing power you buy, plus it makes your upgrade planning and funding easier, because you scale down the components to match and you end up with some leftover cash. Then, 6-8 months down the line when prices drop on some high end components due to the release of a new line, you can use that cash to do a mild upgrade.

I'm running a stock i7 920 at 2.7GHz (i got it so early that it's a C0 stepping batch of CPUs, instead of the easier to overclock D0 batch), two 1.5TB hard disks, 3GB of RAM and an Ati 4890 1GB on a P6T Deluxe v2 motherboard and a 700W Heroichi Cougar PSU.
I didn't buy more RAM because i couldn't use it at the time (W7 wasn't out yet and Vista was terrible at that point in time, so i stuck with XP), i didn't buy a fancier graphcs card or SLI/crossfire it because i was stuck with lower RAM and so on.

However, this system runs all i need to run today, plus it is a good, solid base to build on by changing only a few components. What i'm initially going to do is get another 3GB of RAM for SoW. Then, i might pick up a 5870 around spring-summer when prices are low enough.
In fact, i'm not touching a DX11 card until i can get what is today's top line of cards (Ati 5870/nVidia 480 type of cards) for 200 Euros or less. Finally, when sandy bridge CPUs are out and i7 prices start to drop, i will wait until i can get a six-core i7 really cheap and plug that in the mobo. By that point in time i'll have a PC that is one step below top components for the time, but bought for much less, which will enable me to save money towards my next round of partial upgrades after a further year or two. ;)

Well if you add all the parts for your system to your cart (using 'Today Only' for deals, and it doesn't come to much less than they'll build it for you, you have all the details to make the best choise for you. I bought an i7-930, 6gig 1600 ram, asus p6x58d-e for £434 ( a month or two ago) and when I added the other parts and compared to a pre OC'ed system it was a big saving (but it might not be for you).

The 69xx series has been pushed back to Dec 13th for the information release, so the cards will hopefully be out soon after that.

He's mentioned a few times about tesselation, and at the moment it looks like the cards that are better at tesselation won't get a benefit. 4-5 years will probably get extended, and we'll get new cards again by then.

I have a 5 year old 600W psu, which should do me for a new single GC, but I wish I had more power available, and could SLi/CF if I wanted.

5870 , all ok
i7 920 at 3.8

LOLs, Klem O.k. I'll buy the load time hating, I'm not fond of waiting either, so I'll put that down to personal preference at trade-off time (I'd go for the graphics, but that's just me). I will still recommend going a bit more overboard on the PS though. Good clean, and steady power at all times is the key to longevity in a gaming system (that and the quality of the rest of it, but that's a given) and you can never have to much available power. (I use the same theory in car choice to, so I may be biased)

S!

I run the 5870HD at the moment, as a guy reallyreally wanted to buy the GTX480 from my rig :D Only game with only MINOR performance issues is IL-2, but that is known. Rise Of Flight runs maxed out like nothing, so does Mass Effect 2 or any other game I play :) And add to that the 5870HD is in another league when talking noise and heat compared to the NV card. Nevertheless, nothing bad to say of NEITHER brand.

get the 6870, 100 bucks faster than the 5870, equal in most respects, slightly faster in others.
check out passmark.com's benchmarks right here

http://www.videocardbenchmark.net/high_end_gpus.html

then look at prices.

AND LOOK OUT! the 6870 didnt fit in my computer so i took a hacksaw to it ;) damn harddrive rig.

The assembly/overclocking/testing is costing me about £50 which I think is a very fair price for an o/c I would be afraid to push for :)

Where did you get that 13th December date from? I keep coming up against a wall of silence or "can't say due to Non Disclosure Agreements".

Flanker
yes power and heat are one of my (secondary) drivers

SQB
Thanks for that but I found Toms Hardare website and several others placed the 6870 below the 5870 on gaming tests and one of those sites had similar benchmark results to your link but said "benchmarks aren't everything" (don't necessarily reflect the real world of gaming). You're right about the price but I can afford either so it's down to what will run SoW best out of the two. If the 6970 is going to cost much more than the 5870 it's looking like a straight choice for me between 6870 and 5870. Both have their advantages. The 5970, 480GTX and 580 are beyond my reach.

btw I did check the card lengths which is one reason why I chose that case.

yes, that is true, benchmarks dont reflect everything. truth is the 5870 is i teeny weeny bit better, but nothing to make it worth the extra 100 bucks. All this benchmark shows is the difference is so marginal sometimes the "worse" card beats the "better" one.

Not read through the thread, just answering the original question.

I have a 2.5 year old system with a quad core Q6600 @ 2.4GHz, 4GB RAM and a 650W PSU running 64 bit Vista Home Premium.

I just purchased a Gigabyte GTX 460 a couple of weeks ago mainly because in RoF my 8500GT was really struggling. Long term, I dunno, but the price of this card in the UK was fairly good, and benchmarks looked good compared to similar cards so I bought it.

With this card I am able to run IL-2 totally maxed out and get between 25-60 FPS depending on the map. Generally I get 25 on a busy map with some sea and with water=4 but even then that isn't too much of a problem. The majority of the time I am in the 55-60 range.

In RoF with settings almost maxed out I get around 40-50 FPS again depending on how busy things get.

I am very happy with the purchase and I have had no problems as yet. I would recommend this card.

Wow - I enjoyed doing the OC myself, and learning in the process, but £50! When I looked at Scan's OC'ed components (and overclockers) I was looking at £200.

here - although the link on the first post is down now, it worked when I first read it. I've read a few other places about the details being released in week 50, I'm pretty sure it's official. The 6850 and 6870 were on sale about the same day that the details (benchmarks, reviews etc) were released, so hopefully that'll be the same this time around.

Thanks Triggaaar,

that's really depressing. I read through a fair bit of that thread and several of the links. It seems a fair bet the 6970 won't be out before Christmas unless AMD are sandbagging a little.

I now have to decide whether to go 5870 or get the rig minus the Graphics card and throw in my 7800GTs and wait until the 6970 is available. At least then I will know the performance and the price.

Or can I be patient enough to wait until Q1 2011.
Would probably make sense. Prices may have dropped on the 5870 if the 6970 doesn't turn out to be as good as the hype. Or not.

nnnnnngggg.... I want it now! :(

I didn't get the feeling that it won't be out for christmas. It's the information they've delayed, and if it's not going to be ready until after christmas, releasing the info on the 13th December doesn't make sense - ie, it's too late to stop some people buying a 580 before the 13th (they could release the info now if it's good news) and it's a bit early if the product still won't be ready. But we'll see.

It depends if there's a lot of games you're desperate to play now. I've built a new PC and I'm still using my 6600GT, as I'm in no hurry to get new games, and I want a card for SoW. If it's really for SoW, wait (not just for the 6970, but system requirements would be nice).

I don't think the 5870 will see much proce drop before we know about the 6970. If that turns out to be a good card and a decent price (and while I doubt it'll be as fast as the 580, it'll be faster than the 5870, crossfire better etc, and probably be a reasonable price), the 5870 should then see price drops.

My 2cts : Wait till SOW comes out and use your current card or a very cheap on the new rig till then.
(If that's possibel).
No use buying a nice card now and realising SOW is more demanding when it come's out.
That'll save some budget for a super card to get all the eye candy.

At least that's why I 'm waiting :)

I have decided to wait a month (until the supposed week 50 release) before deciding on the GPU and buying the package. It wasn't an easy decision.

Having unusually spare cash in the bank at risk from all of life's little foibles is like having a Ferrari on the drive but you can't find the key !

The 6000s out now are priced just at or above the 5000s they replace. I'm hoping the 6970/5870 situation will be the same.

I'd like to thank everyone for their comments and advice. And any more that may come. I'll keep you posted.

I've ordered my system
 

Just reviving this thread to let you know what I've ordered and ask a question.

I've ordered everything I need except the video card. This is mainly because I want to beat the VAT increase (Jan 1st) and I don't expect any significant price changes for these parts between then and now. So I've ordered:

ASUS Sabertooth mobo
Intel i7 950 3.06GHz overclocked to 4.2GHz by supplier (o/c under warranty)
Prolimatech Megahalems Rev B,Super 6 Heatpipe Tower Cooler
6Gb Corsair DDR3 RAM
128Gb SSD for the OS and Flying software (IL-2, FSX, SoW)
Windows 7 Home Premium 64bit
750W Corsair HX PSU
Coolermaster HAF 912 case and extra 120mm top fan.

It's based around a Scan.co.uk "3XS SLIK i7 X58 950 BlackOps Bundle"....... modified. It will be built, o/clocked and tested by Scan.

I've taken advice from here and elsewhere to double the SSD size and up the Power Supply. I'll plug in my two 7800GTs for now until ATI release the 6970 when I'll be looking at price and performance. I expect it to outperform the 5870 and hopefully (from the 6850 and 6870 prices) will be in the same ballpark as the 5870. If that doesn't meet my hopes I'll go for the 5870. The 480GTX and 580 are outside my budget (which I'm already heading over) and the 480GTX also has a reputation for hot running.

I already have a new DVD drive and a couple of HDDs for other stuff (photos etc).

That's it. Come SoW, "six months" or whatever it's about as far as I can stretch so I've gone now.

It must be worth waiting for...
http://hw-lab.com/some-details-amd-r...es-leaked.html


OK MY QUESTION..
Does anyone have any indication that the 6970 release date is still on track, slipping again or what? Or info on likely price? Long shots I know.

S!

Latest rumour on 69XX-series (single GPU) release is around 13th of december. The dual-GPU's(Antilles?) are slated Q1 2011.

The 6970 will definitely outperfrom the 5870. It should be more expensive than the 480. It should be as quick or faster, as well as newer, cooler, quieter, use less power etc, so if the 480 is out of your budget, the 6970 will be - look at the 6950 instead.

i have a ATI 5850 and is a good videocard, DX11

but in arma 2 some times, she can't do all the job.
maybe i need some RAM, i have only 4GBRAM
i gonna buy another 4gbram and them i gonna tell you

Thanks Triggaaar,
I had in mind one of the two lower 69xx's.
http://img.hexus.net/v2/pmason/amd/6900/roadmap-2.jpg

The 6950 should outperform the 5870, as should any of the 69's, and comes with the new bells and whistles. The 6950 and 6970 look like having 2Gb RAM - but then the 6000 series are supposed to be cheaper to manufacture than 5000s. I would expect the 6990 to be near or perhaps more expensive than the 580 (I'm scared to look!) as it should outperform the 5970 but is cheaper to manufacture (?) but I'm not sure about the 6950/6970 over the 480GTX (£300 - £400 with 1.5Gb RAM, unless you mean the 480 price will get pushed down).

For comparison, the 6870 is cheaper than it's rivals 5850 and 5870 (about £185/195 vs £180/250 vs £250/300). So I would hope the 6950 will sit around or below the 5870 price, and the 6970... ????


Anyway if I can afford the 6970 I'll get it, otherwise the 6950.

That image only has three 69s on it. The 6990 is a dual card, so the 6970 should not be considered a 'lower' card. There's room for a 6930 later, depending on how the cards stack up against nvidia.

It definitely will outperform the 5970 (or they wouldn't release it), and it will be more expensive than the 580. It's a dual card. The 6970 will be closer to the 580 in terms of price and performance.

Although prices always fall, that's not what I meant. You said you'd look at the price and performance of the 6970, but that a 480 was above your budget - that's £300. You won't get a 6970 for less than that in the near future. By the time SoW comes out, who knows.

The 6870 is cheaper than the 5850 and 5870 because it is aimed at a lower section of the market. The 6870 is slower than the older 5870 because the 5870 was a high end card, and the 6870 is mid range (replacing the 5770). I appreciate that when buying a card now, with a given budget, you might compare the 6870 and 5870, but it's not a useful comparison for predicting the price of the next cards.

When the 6950 is released, it will be faster than the 5870, and more expensive (5870 price will drop). It should be a good card, not long to wait and see.

Going by previous production runs you'll be hard-pressed to get the card you want after release date. There's always a huge gap between supply and demand for new cards. If you can find a good seller myabe you should look at pre-ordering your card. If it was me though, I'd use my current GPU until SoW was out.

Thanks Guys,

I meant lower relative to the 6990/5970 :)

With the XFX 5870 around £260 I could squeeze to £300 if I felt it was worth it but not for a 480GTX with its power and heat issues. It does seem to outperform the 5870 by something like 5-15% depending on make/game/settings but I'm hoping the 6950 will match or beat it for less money and perhaps even the 6970 price won't be far off. It's hard to tell from a 'roadmap'.

I don't think that's true, from the performance roadmap I think the 6850 replaces the 5770 and 6870 replaces the 5850. Also, this from Tomshardware on the 6000 series...
"But there’s one more critical component to performance, and that’s clock rate. Despite the re-use of 40 nm manufacturing, at 900 MHz, the less-complex Barts GPU runs much faster than the 5830, or even the 5850. This means geometry throughput is almost 25% higher than the 725 MHz Radeon HD 5850 because it’s limited to one primitive and one vertex per clock cycle. At the same time, the 6870’s texture unit and ALU deficit (compared to the 5850) is offset by a higher core clock, resulting in roughly the same overall performance."

Now I'm no expert so talking primitives and vertexes doesn't mean much to me so I just look at the performance charts (and not necessarily just benchmarks). In terms of market section we shouldn't let price=performance. The 6000's are in a lower price bracket for about the same performance or to put it another way more bang for the same buck.

That's more or less what I am doing. If the right card comes out at the right price before SoW and if there's not much chance of the price dropping by much and if I could see I couldn't afford the next level up (they don't drop dramatically in a year) I'd just go ahead and buy it. But, really, we could be waiting another year for SoW.

On my new PC with ATI, if I run 10.9 or above, I get the blocky text bug. 10.8, no problems

Do you mean for the cards originally listed the new drivers are a long gone problem?

Here, in my old PC with ATI card, if I run 10.10 or above, I don't get blocky text bug...

:cool:

Well that's why I ask about the cards :)

I'm running an ATI Radeon 5700 @ 1 gig, in a system with 8GB Ram and an i7 870

If I run 10.9 or above, I get blocky text. If I run 10.8 I am 100% good

By only changing driver versions, I can get blocky text, or fix the blocky text. I can do this at will, depending on driver version

Since This is the sole change I make, and I can reliably introduce the problem by choosing a driver and reliably get rid of the problem by choosing a driver, the only conclusion is it's driver-dependent, given my hardware

So that's why I'm interested if the info given that 'problems are fixed post 10.8' applies to just the cards the OP states, or what

My laptop is i7 720 1.6GHz, 5850 Mobility and 6Gb RAM. It had 10.6 drivers and blocky text in IL-2. I installed 10.11 and its all sorted.

Runs IL-2 very nicely.

Is the 10.11 a beta? I admittedly haven't looked for a couple months because 10.8 solved my problem. I'd love to advance beyond 10.8 but it was such a PITA to get my troubles sorted- ATI drivers don't like to go away! Not hard to fix really but too much time wasted erasing drivers, re-installing, etc

Xmas is coming and perhaps a graphics card with it. I had many severe problems with both ATI and NVidia cards in the past four years. Budget is limited. Probably ATI HD 6870 if nothing else appears until then. The ATI "Cayman" seems interesting if it is very high performance for the cost. But how fast will it be? Heard rumors of 30-50% faster than 6870. At what cost?

When SoW comes out, I'll just have to hope that whichever I went with can handle it okay.

http://support.amd.com/us/kbarticles...easenotes.aspx

Curiously the AMD website does not list drivers for the 6000 series yet.

Perhaps your method of updating is incorrect? It is easy to lose your way during the process.

Basically it's only necessary to use the Ati Catalyst Install Manager. Access that via Start/ Control Manager/ Uninstall or Change (Win 7). Highlight the above Manager and click Change, then select the Express uninstall option in the resulting window. Once complete carry out the requested reboot.
Once rebooted, find the new Catalyst Install.exe (that you downloaded before the above, right? ;) ) and execute. Allow the process to run, allow the new folder to be created, and then reboot when asked to. This should bring you back to the previous settings of your desktop.
There is no need to mess with registry settings or manual deletions - this can cause more problems than it solves.

B

tbh brando I used Windows uninstall, rebooted and just ran the downloaded exec. My Laptop didn't have a Catalyst Centre on it (it has now).

Thanks Brando, but please believe me when I say that I can reliably introduce or repair the issue, with the sole change being driver version. I am installing properly, take my word for it :) I see that you are still doing your best to help people out, and I appreciate it

What surprises me is that apparently nobody else reading my description has the same issue. This was the topic of a request for tech support from ATI that was on SIMHQ (I think) a while back. I'm hardly the only one seeing this issue or using this method to resolve it. Using 10.9 or 10.10 (Now I'll have to try 10.11!) the only program I have installed that has an issue is Il2, and the bug is the blocky text bug. Removing drivers completely and then reinstalling 10.8 reliably resolves the issue

Hi Klem, if you're still have not pulled the trigger on a new system I would wait. I built my last system because I thought SoW was just around the corner. That was in December of 2006...If SoW comes out in say 6 months there will have been new Processors and GPU's out there. I'm building my next rig again for Il2 and this time I'm holding out untill it's on the shelves. I allready have three 22inch monitors and I'm planing on 1 top of the line card for each monitor. Leaning towards Nvidia at the moment since I keep reading on the widescreen gaming forum that for 3 monitors Sli is still easier to set up and faster than eyefiniti. If this changes between now and SoW release I'll adjust my viewpoint. I've got a $3000 budget and will wait to get as much bang for the buck. This thing will probably have to last me at least 4 years.

Just a quick note - I have not had an issue with blocky text in ATI drivers since the early 10 cats.

From 10.5 to 10.6 to 10.7 (I skipped 10.8 - just forgot). No issues - now on 10.10 - I have not installed 10.11 yet, well just because I'm too lazy and the Cat's work great for me.

No blocky text in Il2 since 10.4 (as I remember, could be 10.3).

Il2 runs great
ROF runs great
Any other stuff I've thrown at it.

Good luck

S!

Gunny

2x 6850 is pretty nice, perfomance & price wise.

Or just wait untill the 5870 & 5970 replacements are out, 5870/5970 should be cheap to get then.

Hi BigC208

I've already pulled the trigger to get the invoice raised before end year when the VAT goes up but they are happy to delay delivery until week 50 so that, if AMD keep to their release date of 13th December, I can hopefully find out if I can include a 6950 or 6970 in the build. If there's still a 'delay to market' I'll take it without video cards and dump my 7800GTs in until they are available.

Thing is I could go on waiting another year but my load times, especially for FSX with hi res photo textures, are driving me up the wall. Also, while there may be some price drops if I wait they won't be enough to get me up to the next level.... and I could play that waiting game forever. And risk spend the money on something else 'sensible' in the meantime :) My current rig has lasted 5 years and is still pretty good. There is room for upgrading on the new rig although it will already be overclocked to 4GHz so processing power should stand up for quite a while.

I thought I'd pop back in here and let you know what I decided which I also posted in the "Good thing SOW is Nvidia's friendly !" thread.

How quickly things can change in just a month!

I have decided on the EVGA Superclocked 570GTX (even these were only recently released). After all the hype over the 6970, released on Wednesday, I've spent the past three days poring over the reviews. I have been steered by the written reviews but this link shows graphically what many are saying.
http://www.pcinlife.com/article_phot...game/total.png
Call of Duty is interesting because I believe it is OpenGL which is IL-2 country but these cards should spank IL-2 anyway. The Directx/3D table at the bottom looks at Directx/3D.

All the reviews are pointing to a couple of general conclusions.

General: the 6970 targets the 570GTX. The 6950 pitches in between the 480GTX (in some reviews although I think that should have said 460GTX) and the 570GTX. The 6990 will target the 580GTX.

Performance: Below 1900 resolution the 570GTX has the edge on the 6970. However, if Tesselation is in use the 6970 wins (but SoW won't have Tesselation). At 1900 its a bit of a toss-up. Above 1900 the 6970 takes over.

Power and Heat: Power consumption of the 6970 and 570 at stock speeds is very similar although one report put the 6970 as the higher of the two on higher resolutions/game demands. The 570 edged the 6970 out by something like 30w and 10 degrees under heavy load in one review which also found that two 6970s in Crossfire might lead to heat problems if they are very close, depending on the motherboard/ventilation.

Price: Not much between the 570 and the 6970 depending on which supplier/badge you pick.

My position is: 1680x1050 resolution and not likely to change in the next 2-3 years; New PC is overclocked from 3GHz to 4.2GHz so heat is a point to watch; My budget is £300, squeeezable to £350 in a very cause cause.

I am not a fanboy. I was very happy with my ATI 9600GT and have been very happy with my NV 7800GTs. As much as I wanted to believe the hype and buy a shiny new 570GTX-killing 6970, that did not come to pass so for me its the 570GTX.

It was a fine-line decision. Ultimately it came down to what would best meet "My Position". Add to that the fact that Oleg is developing SoW using Nvidia cards, which may have a sliver of an effect, and the EVGA stock 570GTX review I found that put it ahead of stock 570 cards without even o/clocking and I reckon that the Superclocked EVGA is the best choice for me.

Can't wait to get my hands on my little beauty:-

Scan.co.uk 3XS SLIK i7 X58 950 BlackOps Bundle, tailored, comprising:-
Asus Sabertooth motherboard, Intel X58 chipset, Socket 1366, PCI-E 2.0 , DDR3 1866MHz, USB3/SATA 6Gb/s, SATA RAID, ATX
Intel Core i7 950 Bloomfield 45nm, 3.06 GHz, QPI 4.8GT/s, 8MB Cache, 23x Ratio, 130W, Retail, o/c to 4.2GHz
Prolimatech Megahalems Rev B,Super 6 Heatpipe Tower Cooler (Fanless, cooled by case roof fan)
EVGA Superclocked 570GTX
128GB Crucial RealSSD C300, MLC-Flash, SATA3 6Gbps, 2.5" SSD, Read 355MB/s, Write 70MB/s
6GB (3x2GB) Corsair Dominator, DDR3 PC3-12800 (1600), CAS 8-8-8-24, DHX, XMP, New connector, 1.65V
Coolermaster HAF 912 Plus, Black, Mid Tower Case
750W Corsair HX Series Modular PSU
2 x 120mm Akasa Apache Ultra Silent Fan HDB Bearing PWM fan w/4 pin connector & Rubber Pins
Microsoft Windows 7 Home Premium 64 Bit, Operating System, Single, - OEM
Acronis True Image 2010 sofware
Built and Overclocked to 4.2GHz, Tested and Heat Soaked
1 year on site Warranty plus 1 year rtb

@Former_Older

I got an 5870 with cat 10.8 and the same catalyst install problems like you. It is caused by the windows 7 UAC, curiously not all users have this issue but a lot. Like you i tried every possible method deleting old and installing new drivers, it always failed one, twice or more times. Same with other new install procedures like flashplayer, java, audio drivers
etc.
I finally got rid of this by creating a true 'system administrator' (not the common 'administrator' account). No problems with UAC when installing via this.

Regarding issues with my 5870 i can tell the card is working well with all actual games
or programs i use, exept IL-2 Sturmovik where i still get glass parts
or turning prop disc not displayed in external view occasionally (10.8 now).

I can give you my opinion in acouple of days since I, right or wrong, ordered two 6870 for crossfire.

:)

At this point in time there are two clear paths to go down. If you want to run a single-screen solution then NVidia. If you want to go down the triple screen road then AMD/ATI is your only choice. Just like everything else there is no hard and fast right or wrong answer, just buy what you want and you'll be fine.

Are you sure that CoD:IL-2 will support crossfire? That's a tough bet since noone knows yet. If you play other games that does support CF, my point is ofcourse moot. :)

I'm running an ATI 5850, Q6700 Quad Core, 2 gb of RAM. In Rise of Flight I run everything in CCC maxed out, and almost all RoF settings maxed (Forest Med, Special Shadows Med) at 1680x1050. RoF is smooth with as many as 60 people in a server. Il-2 looks wonderful at that resolution.

@Kimo,

nope, it's gamble for CoD but yes I do have some other games I also enjoy and
they will benefit :)

// regards

buy a i7 2600k its better than a 950.