Information on period pilot maps
 

Hello everyone,

We're currently planning for all sorts of goodies to include in the box. We thought it would be very cool to do a cloth or silk map of our battle area, but then we realized we know very little about how those maps were actually made.

I'm sure somebody could help us out with this.

What exact material were the common pilot maps printed out for RAF and Luftwaffe in 1940?

Any more details on the printing process would be great. I know next to nothing about printing, so I'm not even sure what questions to ask, but we'd like this map to be as authentic as possible. Every detail helps.


GIANT DISCLAIMER. This is NOT confirmed for anything. We're just trying to figure out IF we can do this, and to know for sure, we need to know what exactly the printing process would entail.

Thanks very much in advance!

The fact that you are discussing what to put in a deluxe box makes me very happy ;)

Googling a bit I found this page (http://www.snyderstreasures.com/pages/bloodchits.htm) with a bunch of maps in the bottom... Seems like silk and rayon where the most common choice to print maps like this on, but I bet someone will know all (and more) about BoB era aerial maps here ;)

I'll see if my Grandfather still has any tomorrow, seem to recall him having a silk one that could be easily hidden in case of getting shot down behind enemy lines.

Something to start with:

http://www.usmbooks.com/luftwaffe_map.html

http://www.usmbooks.com/luftwaffe_pilot_map.html

I have not seen pilots maps from the period but worked with old maps dating back to the 19th Century when I was younger and employed by the New South Wales Crown Lands Office.

The maps I used were printed on paper and took several forms:

1. plain folded paper maps
2. paper maps glued to boards (not suited to flying clearly)
3. linen backed paper maps, the maps were glued to linen. The linen backing was cut into squares about A4 in size before attaching allowing the maps to fold along the gaps between the linen.
4. folded paper maps with a waxy surface for waterproofing
5. Survey plans drawn directly on starched linen.



Surely someone can just ask a veteran ?

BTW I have some partial copies of German maps of South East England from 1940 in an older book I can link up if they are any use.

Not excactly what you want but I thought it might help:


http://img696.imageshack.us/img696/4...onp1000736.jpg

Higher res one available if needed. Displayed at the Tangmere museum, probably they know more?!

1943 Escape map.

Silk maps were common for escape maps but much less likely to have been used as a general pilots map.

The escape maps were interesting. Aside from maps in tunic linings, there were playing cards with maps inside when soaked in water, gramophone records with silk escape maps sandwiched inside them, brass uniform buttons containing a concealed compass, escape boots that had a wire saw in the boot laces and a compass in the heal.

However I am pretty sure all of the escape maps, silk or otherwise, date from a much LATER period of the war than the Battle of Britain.

Luthier check your PM plz

:)

I don't know what resolution you need, I presume very high. I'll post these though:

http://www.blitzandpeaces.co.uk/Muse...CAPE%20MAP.JPG

Edit: Normandy invasion map:


Parts...

http://snyderstreasures.com/images/u...apNormandy.jpg

http://snyderstreasures.com/images/u...MapHolland.jpg

http://snyderstreasures.com/images/u...yCMapDover.jpg

http://snyderstreasures.com/images/u...DayCMapKey.jpg

Total:

http://snyderstreasures.com/images/u...DDayCMapOA.jpg

Thanks everyone for your help, but I still need more help with this. We didn't have questions about the map contents per se. We're actually pretty good on the content. We already have a high-res map of our area, which is what would be printed. We just don't know what to print it on, and how to print it.

And I'm still not sure whether this would need to be on cloth, silk, or paper. But since no one seemed to know much about these even on a forum full of aviation experts, I'm guessing the materials won't be a major deal, as long as the map itself is good.

This sounds like a great idea Luthier. I am sure someone at the Imperial War Museum or RAF Museum, both in London, will have the answer to this.

Imperial War Museum London

Telephone: +44 20 7416 5320
Email: mail@iwm.org.uk
Web: www.iwm.org.uk

RAF Museum

Research requests via http://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/research/enquiries.cfm
Email: london@rafmuseum.org
Telephone: +44 20 8205 2266

I live in London and am happy to make some calls if this helps.

PPanPan

... also Luthier, check out these dealers in old war maps. They may be able to help too:

http://www.aviation-antiques.com/maps-1.html - for example, see (BRITISH) WAR OFFICE 1942 LE HAVRE FRANCE, the last map on page 1

http://www.maps-charts.com/Maps_war.htm - see the last map on page 1, Skye and Outer Herbrides [Scotland], 4th ed. 1940, which is stated to be 'cloth backed'

Good luck

PPanPan

Hey not so fast, the experts don't usually arrive till page 9 or 10 of a thread:grin:

also, I'm pleased to learn that there will be a boxed version for purchase, thanks

in the map use NATO symbols? AMERICAN use nato symbol and GERMAN? wht symbol use to map? symbols
war.

"American use NATO"...I think NATO started much time after the war end:grin:

yes but American angloamerican or allied invade ITALY and use this symbol?
http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:7...mpaigninSicily
this is ww2 not over ww2 time.

Somewhere I have a topographic map of the 1920's. It is paper sticked on linen. I will leave for the weekend now but when I'm back I will prepare some photos for you, Luthier.

If it's an escape and evasion map, it'll be usually be silk. If it's an aeronautical chart, it'll be on paper. You really do have some latitude on how it's printed - especially if you're not actually reproducing a period map.

I have a 1930's RAF map of the south east of England. It is paper on open weave linen. I am at work at the moment. I will post more details when I get home.

RedToo.

Old time (1950s) Ordenance Survey maps used to be paper backed with linen. I dont think that things would have changed much in 10 years.

Didn't the Germans just use the Michelin Guide?

... always used secret weapon:

google maps

:cool:

Luft Navigationskarte Deutschland 1938 (Air Navigation Map Germany 1938 ):
http://www.cockpitinstrumente.de/dow...Europa1938.htm

I beleive people are missing the point here, the problem is not the map since they already have it, the problem its the printing and the paper/plastic to use. And also the problem its make the printing that look like a BoB era map.

Luthier, i cant help on this, but i don't know if you have good relations with Eagle Dynamics, because you could talk to them since they released a printed map for DCS Black Shark of the Kuban area to be availabe as an extra purchase. They maybe could give a hint in the right direction.
Just a thought!

British Escape maps were originally printed on silk (that was deemed unfit for parachutes) as silk became rarer they later printed them on Rayon.

They used pectin mixed with the ink which stopped bleed.

They also printed some on tissue.

Here's an early bartholomew Map

http://www.escape-maps.com/images/bl.../uk_2b_9ca.jpg

Got most of the info from here

The actual pilot's map was usually printed on heat treated paper but this varied from country to country.

Hi Luthier

you see the Maps from the Desastersoft IL2 Add-on?


http://www3.pic-upload.de/thumb/21.1...2pygmh782i.jpg

There seems to be some sort of Communication Breakdown going on here. Let's take a closer look at Luthier's post and see if we can discern the secret meaning.

Hmmm. . . pretty complicated,. Let's cut out some of the unnecessary stuff.

Almost there!

Perfect!

What Material? As in what did they print the maps on?

a. Paper
b. Laminated paper
c. Rayon
d. The pilot's arm (tattoo)
e. Silk
f. Nylon
g. Deli meats

They are not asking you what to put on the maps, they are asking what to put the maps on!

Things they don't need:

Maps from AFTER the Battle of Britain.
Non-Pilot maps. (maps not used by pilots)
Pictures of the Map's Content.
Incredibly off-topic Italian Babbling about post-war maps.

If you don't know what the maps were printed on, then posting a picture of 1943 Poland is not going to help.

Personally, I'm probably going to rule out silk/rayon/nylon or any other fabric since the pilots didn't need to hide their flight maps and required something foldable but semi-rigid so they could see it properly. Take a tissue, draw a picture on it, then try and read it with one hand. Odd are, the material they are looking for is some manner of paper/laminated paper, or card-stock.

The Luftwaffe Briefing Room Map is made of Paper, some Maps are carton
for the Pilot is made of linen cloth and rubber (yellow Luftwaffe maps).

Lol, love it!

TBH a pilot would nip down to the local shop, grab a map, pay the chap, Bob's your Uncle and Fanny's your Aunt.

The AM did release maps though to pilots; BoB versions are extremely scarce now-a-days.
A simple map would have been made from paper (maybe linen-backed), and nice pre-war examples often come with a nice thick, brown paper cover; usually nicely AM marked too.

There ya go :D

Don't muck around with that poncy silk and rayon malarky, they were produced from these materials but they had a specific reason; usually to do with escape/evasion if my memory serves me correctly. The tissue maps were made for escape, and were made to fold easily. These bore some resemblance to a handkerchief. However, this is post-BoB ;)

I remember old Ordnance Survey maps being paper backed with some sort of quite wide woven cloth, I don't know whether they were pre or post WW2. It should be possible to get hold of some I'd have thought, they seemed to be quite hard wearing. That was the point of the cloth, holding the shape when the paper fell apart at the fold lines (I think paper now has plastic in it or something, back then it was much less durable).

Ilya, fascimile of the map (and other things) BOB used by spitfire pilots is on its way to Oleg.

The RAF museum in Hendon has some of them, they are on display in the bomber hall.

S.o. call them and post here, please.

Department of Research & Information Services
RAF Museum London
Grahame Park Way
London, NW9 5LL
research@rafmuseum.org
020 8358 4873

Is that true?

I thought there were restrictions on the sale of maps in the UK during WW2?

Hi Luthier,

As promised some more info. on my RAF map. It was first published in 1938. Four pics - two of parts of the map, one of the whole map and one of the backing. Let me know if you want any more details, e.g, the rest of the key etc.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v369/RedToo/Map-1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v369/RedToo/Map-2.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v369/RedToo/Map-3.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v369/RedToo/Map-4.jpg

RedToo.

Quite possible for pilots serving pre-war. During the war I am not sure. Certainly if they could obtain them they might choose to.

Now that's more like it! What is that backing though, now I'm all curious.

Edit: I've just completed 2 hrs of internet research and found precious little info. I can only confirm that the 1938 map was used right through the BOB and into 1942. Unfortunately my own library is more ground-battle oriented.

That's THE map he's talking about! Me want too ;)

Seriously, print this map on the the thickest paper you can find that is not too white and smooth and it will be great!

You want to buy very high quality scans of 1938 RAF maps? Go here:

http://www.a2asimulations.com/store/...products_id=24

I have these and they are very good.

RedToo.

Hi Badaim,

The backing is a mesh of fine threads at right angles to each other. Each thread is like a thread of fine white cotton. The width of the gap between each thread varies between 1 and 1 1/2 millimetres (approximately).

RedToo.

Wow that's annoying, pass me the Sellotape :(

Note that references to silk maps found so far refer exclusively to RAF "escape maps" which clearly were pointless during the Battle of Britain. From my experience printing directly on linen or silk was rare. Much more common was a paper map backed with something like linen.

I have found a few photos of crew in a he111 using maps in flight. One shows the co-pilot using what looks very much like folded paper. The second looks more interesting the as map appears to be mounted on a stiff folding board with two panels each about 40cm wide by 30 cm high. I will post these up when I get a chance to scan them.

Also remember that regularly updated/changed maps like strip maps and individual airfield maps would almost certainly be just paper. In addition the pilot/navigator generally drew on these maps with a "chinagraph" pencil meaning they had a limited operational life before becoming cluttered and needing replacement.

On the other hand, the 1940 equivalent of sectionals and WAC charts were likely to be backed with linen or some other material for longevity.

is map for our knee? good booklet would be :cool: too

the map is mainly deco - I hope we'll have an ingame map too. ;)
-> silkmap= cool

Although a printed map in the box would be very cool, Please put a PDF of the map in the distribution! (like the New Guinea map on the PF disk - or better)

This thread has made me remember. Some where around the traps is the book on map reading and cartography my grandfather was issued when he joined the militia (Dad's army type - he was a WWI veteran) at the begining of WWII.

Will have to search it out!

Cheers!

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y10...nagh/maps2.jpg



http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y10...nagh/maps1.jpg

IIRC the backing is linen, but I am not too sure on this, as I have never seen a pre-war example before.
This is a lovely example that you own. Thanks for sharing :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hDKI1r8wb5Y
;)

Absolutely beautiful map RedToo - thanks for sharing. Hopefully this will also give Luthier the info he needs. If we get something like that in the boxed edition, I will be very happy.

PPanPan

The Germans sure have stiff silk ;)

Well, seriously I have an old map of Sweden from around WWI and it is paper on linen too... Anyway, the bang for bucks index for doing that today is ridiculous so thick paper will be fine for me at least!

I agree with this.
High quality colour reproductions of period Luftwaffe and RAF maps on stiff paper would be perfect. At full 1:1 scale, please. Not shrunk down to an A8 (ie:8 inch by 11 inch) sheet.

I know that I'll use mine so as not to have to have a virtual map up on the screen. I'll cover it in matt plastic so I can draw navigational information on it for each flight (and for durability).

Something like that really adds "value" to a boxed version, imo, as it increases the immersion in-game. Which is why I strongly feel that full scale reproductions of the maps for each side, folded to fit the retail box, are highly preferable to useless but pretty "shrunk to size" maps.

The "authenticity" of the material of the map doesn't concern me so much. Stiff paper will be fine, no need for linen-backed 1940s-grade paper made from Canadian-pine fiber paper ;).

Just my $0.02,

Thanks,
C_G

Just spoken to my grandfather who said they were paper on fabric (sort of bandage-iy fabric, his words) during his time with the RAF, escape kit maps were silk.

The Fabric was linen.

A cursory search (I'm not an expert) throws up this item on auction.

http://www.ima-usa.com/product_info....oducts_id/2114

Includes some information on how they were made (sewn selvage hem) as well as some close-up images.

http://www.ima-usa.com/images/BM6000-1.jpg
http://www.ima-usa.com/images/BM6000-6.jpg

Nice!...seems like a fair price for a un-used map:grin:

Luthier, if you decide it's not possible to print on cloth, and we know that paper just won't last, then consider printing on Tyvek. http://www2.dupont.com/Tyvek/en_US/index.html

Sounds an interesting propsal to make the product more special - Fabulous :)

One other comment.

In most maps I have seen the backing was STARCHED linen. the starching was used to stiffen it.

Good point ;)

Actually, if you're thinking of giving us some nice stuff in the box how about getting some SoW BoB pilots wings made up ? :)

That's not a bad idea.

Of course there would have to be a strict rule that you wouldn't be allowed to wear them until you had completed the Tiger Moth training missions. LOL;)

Crappy phone camera, so my shots aren't as nice as RedToo's but I can concur about the linen thread backing.

Thought I'd post this shot as it's where all the screen shots have been taken ;)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...ko417/map2.jpg


Map is printed on heavy paper reinforced with linen thread.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...ko417/map1.jpg


Here is a worn area in the fold showing the thread.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...ko417/map3.jpg


Until the boxed version arrives guess which map I'll be using personally... :razz:

The large red dots are airfields, the small red dots along the coast and in villages are balloon sites.

Nice work, guys, but it looks to me like Elvis left the building in page 2.
http://www.magicmomentsdjelvis.com/w...9/100_1187.jpg

...and said under Elvis' breath while leaving said building...

I have to agree to that OT about the gimmick in the box.
Maybe one could choose the box with german or english or
even french, polish or italian pilots wings, the german ones
maybe with a Balkenkreuz instead the swastika.
I would love it

It seems that the 1938 RAF maps were printed on plain paper as well as linen backed. I have just purchased another of these maps (north west England) from eBay and it doesn't have the linen backing. Identical in all other respects. Makes sense really - two versions at different prices. So a modern copy of the BoB map on good quality paper without the linen backing would still be authentic.

RedToo.

Maybe you were mugged? :cry:

I hate to say it, but:

- The backside looks way too white
- It seems the threads reflect light, maybe synthetic(nylon would make the era fit, still a little white though)?

:confused:

Hm... at first blush, I have to agree with Swiss.

Maybe it's a trick of the camera and lighting, but I don't think linen would be so reflective and the weave looks too wide (open), though it's difficult to get a sense of scale from the picture- the reflectivity *might* be due to the adhesive used rather than from the "linen" itself, but that is a total guess.
In the picture it almost looks like plasterer's (acrylic or nylon?) reinforcing weave which has been stretched here and there to create irregularities in the weave.

Disclaimer: I am absolutely NOT an expert. But I do own some heirloom linen items (bed sheets and French wedding stationary dating from the '30s with a decorative backing in what I believe to be linen). The linen on the wedding reception cards (which is closer to the same use as a map) was of a decorative design and does not exhibit any glossiness. As some ends of the design have come loose and there is no glossiness at all (indeed, it's difficult to tell what adhesive was used) I think it's most likely an ordinary water soluble white glue was used sparingly to lightly tack the design to the card- though I'm not sure of this as the moisture of white glue would probably affect the underlying cardboard and there's no sign of that having occurred. I'd ask my grandmother (it was for her wedding) but that would involve the use of a Ouija board ;)

Anyway, my first gut reaction to Swiss' comment was "hmmm... that DOES look fishy".


I dunno... just throwing some thoughts out there.

Well the "linen" backing I remember on old maps was more like that used in a surgical sling for a broken arm then that seen in a bedsheet. Much looser weave.

What seems to be coming to light is the maps were actaully printed on paper and backed with some material such as linen.
They were not printed directly on the material/linen.

Hi Galway, thanks for the comment regarding the looseness of the weave.
Swiss and I are commenting directly on Jocko's picture. It seems fairly clear that maps printed on cloth (as opposed to on paper backed with linen for durability) were not likely in use during the BoB.
Cheers,
C_G

Suggest you check the map legend again Jocko. the small red dots (note they are always on a black, ie railway line) are railway stations. I would expect that the legend would also indicate the difference between airfields with red circle with dot and plain red circle. Figure alongside each airfield would be height above mean sea level.
I have some pre-war motoring maps, most printed on "linen" but I suspect the actual material is a very loose weave cotton thread. Must dig them out.
For my money either "linen" backed or plain paper would be great. Map style, ie level of detail, topography and colours should be as that shown in Jacko's post.
Pete

http://escape-maps.com/history_of_ww...f_contents.htm

http://escape-maps.com/map_list_hist..._us_tissue.htm



http://www.travellady.com/Issues/Dec...ofSilkMaps.htm

"The silk maps were developed by MI9, the escape and evasion wing of British Military Intelligence. The cartography was supplied by the Bartholomew map company, with all copyrights waived in support of the war effort. Waddington plc, known for games such as Monopoly, employed its experience of detailed printing on fabric to print the maps with the required detail. The silk was specially treated for durability and the impressive printing clarity was achieved by adding pectin to the ink."


http://www.matrixgames.com/newsletter/march2008.html

Word from the RAF museum is that linen backed ordnance survey maps were indeed used during the battle of britain, they were printed from engravings.

So although the maps posted are from different years, they should be good examples.

Luthier,

If you want to include a map printed on silk or rayon you'll need to talk to a textile company which does short runs of screen-printed fabric and/or garment manufacturing (to hem the scarves after the roll of printed fabric is cut into individual maps). They'll be able to give you a much better idea of what's technically feasible, as well as the costs involved and minimum production run.

The good news is that silk printing is something at which China has traditionally excelled and they still dominate the industry. The bad news is that finely printed silk scarves which incorporate lots of colors and intricate designs are generally luxury products and are priced accordingly. Another bit of possible bad news is that various countries might have odd customs regulations and duties regarding textiles.

I've handled early 20th century maps made from printed oil cloth or paper/cardboard backed with linen. As another poster pointed out, a good substitute would be a map printed on Tyvek. Another alternative would be a maps printed on pre-folded cardstock or cardboard. These hold up fairly well and they've been a standard of the board game and traditional wargame business for a century.

not the material, but a good english map with airfields

http://www.flickr.com/photos/1080427...7612481432160/

Just a head's up from earlier in the thread:

Quote: You want to buy very high quality scans of 1938 RAF maps of the whole BoB area? Go here:

http://www.a2asimulations.com/store/...products_id=24

I have these and they are very good. Unquote.

Addendum: If you have memory map software (the free viewer will work) you can import these maps. You can now scale, scroll, double click to load the adjacent map, place marks with different icons at locations, plot courses with heading and distance displayed etc. You can also print these maps out in any way you want.

RedToo.

Printing Specifications
 

Hi all i'm new

Anyways, i'm a graphic designer (or atleast i'm learning to be)
and i learn a fair deal of printing specifications.

Do note that these specifications apply to paper printing and maybe not on silk or other cloths. (for example it could also be possible it has to be silk screen printed http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Screen-printing this seems more obvious but i don't know much about that.)

- maybe what i'm about to tell is completely obvious to some, sorry -
First of all the map has to be converted to a program like Photoshop.

Second, the resolution has to be 300 dpi - this is the most common standard.

Third, the color scheme has to be CMYK (cyan, magenta, yellow, black) and not RGB. (almost all printers work with these standards).

And last but not least it has to be converted to PDF. Some printers will accept other file extensions, but ALL accept PDF.

I hope this is of any use to you guys. Keep up the good work.