Ab 250 and 500 bombing
 

Can anyone tell me the proper way to bomb with the ab250, and ab500 bombs,do they have any bugs? I used them in war clouds, have problems since the dispersal of the bomblets variers, usually drop them at 500m.

what's your setting of the bomb fuse?

Also the dispersal varies with angle and speed you drop them at.

Germans AB bombs on IL2 are very unnefective. Russian Il2 bombs like AJ-2 (100 x 2kg) can even destroy PzKpfw III. So, is not a matter of "bug", is a matter of undermodelling. (AB 1000 - 320 cluster bombs x 2kg).

Because of the online competitions (VEF, VEF2, AW, VoW, etc...) my squad have tested a lot all his AB weapons, but at the end they are useless.

No matter the angle, the altitude dropped or the bomb delay, these german AB bombs are useless on Il2. And that is not a problem, the problem is that the same IL2 cluster bomb AJ-2 can even destroy hard vehicles.

Watch this video at 3:31 and cry (youtube.com/watch?v=h73KrIM2BfU).

Hi

Setting the bomb delay sets the AB canister release delay, depending on altitude and speed this effects the dispersal.

Try using the Stuvi bombsite, on the Ju88A4 I used to find diving at 480kph Stuvi set to 1200m and 5 second delay work ok on the AB500's

With Stukas I found the results to unreliable to take the payload on a mission, and forget level bombing with the 5 ringed AB1000.

Any Russian American similar armament works ok, probably too good :)

As already mentioned by Gunkan

AB bombs are too ineffective to use, you might as well take normal bomb load outs.

Add to that

German 2x SC 1000kg

Almost half as powerful as

Japanese 1x 800kg

German bombing loads have been seemingly nerfed over the years :(

Bug reports fell on deaf ears at 1c years ago after I reported the SC2000 bug, they fixed it, then the next patch come out and it was nerfed again and still is.

Edit> just dug up some old IL2 notes on SC2000, its been designated a demolition bomb in city areas.
Edit> mph to kph

A long time ago i actually managed to come up with an attack profile that gave good results.

It was a shallow dive attack in a 190F8, bomb delay set for 0-1 seconds. The thing is, i unfortunately don't remember the exact numbers. However i think it would be pretty easy to come up with an attack profile with a few practice runs in QMB.

What i did was enable externals to be able to track my bomb and see the impact pattern of the bomblets. Then i experimented with a few altitude/speed combinations at the time of release to judge the balistics of the weapon. After managing to consistently get the bomb close enough to the targets (it's an area weapon, so 100% accuracy is not exactly needed), i started playing with the delay.
I started with 2-3 seconds and found out that while the canister was dropping close enough, the bomblets dispersed after the canister had hit the ground which resulted in poor or non-existent area coverage. So i started reducing the delay until the canister dispersed the bomblets at a reasonable altitude to create a satisfactory dispersion.

In short, don't fret about getting it right the first time and being rigid with your profile. Fly a profile that suits you first and try to to get the bomb close to the targets. When you can consistently do that (which is no big deal, as it's similar to dropping regular bombs), start fiddling with the bomb delay to change the altitude at which the bomblets disperse. In essence, what happens is that instead of adapting your style to the weapon you can adapt the weapon to your flying method by changing the delay.

About half an hour later i got it close enough that i could bomb using the conventional method of shallow diving and releasing the bomb as the targets slip out of visibility under the aircraft's nose.

I don't know how powerful or puny these weapons are compared to other similar bombs, but they are good enough for light targets. The main use i can think of is suppresing tightly clustered flak batteries in jabo runs. Two to four 190F8s can come along and drop on the flak, kill all or most of it in a single run, have the rest of the guys loaded up with regular SC bombs to wipe out the targets and everyone is free to strafe the soft-skinned stuff.


It's a bit similar for other hard to aim weapons as well, like hitting bombers with the air to air rockets on German fighters. I followed a similar testing method and came up with a way to score well with the 21cm mortar rockets.

The trick is to adjust one thing at a time. I started by launching from their 6 at about 1km away. Then i played with convergence to alter the rocket's flight patch (convergence applies to the vertical axis as well, so longer values will have the rocket tubes angled further upwards). Observing their flight path from the cockpit, i saw that by using such a long convergence i also had to use a different aimint point. So, instead of putting the bombers in the center of the gunsight, i aligned them with the top horizontal boundary of the gunsight glass.
After i could see in external views that my rockets were passing sufficiently close to the bombers, it was time to make them explode there. I did this by flying the exact same attack profile and using the same convergence, but this time i changed the rocket delay value in the arming selection panel. After 2-3 attempts i could place two 21cm mortars in the middle of a four-ship B17 formation pretty consistently, usually with a success rate of 60-70%.

The difficult part is that such attack profiles are a bit rigid (certain speeds and altitudes, lots of different variables) and as a result, situational. I don't sweat it trying to keep ultra precise altitude and airspeed, just trying to get it close enough, but even then it's hard to do when in actual combat and not in QMB testing runs. For example, attacking bombers with rockets in an online map is a totally different can of worms, as you'd have to worry about escorts, possibly bob and weave to shake an attack and even then you'd need to fly pretty much straight at them for some time in order to ensure your method works.

The good thing is that if you learn one way to do it, by keeping true to the axiom of changing one thing at a time you can accurately judge the effect of each parameter and come up with variations that suit more tactical situations than your originally conceived method. For example, i found out that i could succesfully launch rockets at bombers head on by using the same aiming point and the same convergence/delay values, simply by launching at roughly half the range i used to launch from when attacking from their 6. In my case, the settings that worked for a 6 o'clock attack from 1km out, could also be used for a head on attack if i launched at 600 meters away.
So, little by little each one can come up with their personal "library" of methods for using such tricky weapons.

Maybe resubmit the bug reports to Team Daidalos. They have fixed a few bugs here and there where it was possible in 4.09 so I'd expect similar in the future....

Some of our guys found the German AB bombs useful in ONE attack. In ADW war, supplies from depots and outside map are carried by convoys and trains. Convoys are easy, typically max 12 guns for 40-ish vehicles, but trains... The flak is insane. On a good example 5 Fockes dive bombing from 6000m to 3000m, 3 were shot down and 1 suffered heavy damage, as a typical result.

It was found that when DIVE bombing from fairly high altitudes (release at 3000m+) to stay safe, properly timed AB500 would give comparable results with the SC500, and chance to hit and kill at least a single train car was better, and we switched to it. When the bomb is in vertical dive, the bomblet spread is circle shaped - with some practice it can be made to explode at about 500m, where direct hit would result in 1-2 train cars less killed than with SC500, but near-miss would kill always something, when it almost never did with the SC500.

Assuming it's correct that the SC2000 was a demolition bomb, the HE content may have been quite small as a thick steel penetrator would constitute most of the weight. AB bomblets require a direct hit to have any effect, which can lead to wierd results if the dispersal is too great.

For those with the patience (I usually take a guess myself), the burst altitude can be calculated as follows:

B = D - (u*t + .5*g*t^2)

...where B is the burst alt, D the release alt, u the vertical speed (in metres per sec) at the time of release, g=9.81 m/s acceleration due to gravity and t is the fuze setting in seconds.

Taking KG26 Alpha's example:

D = 1200m
u = 480mph = 768kph = 213 m/s
t = 5

=> B = 1200 - (213*5 + 0.5*9.81*5*5) = 12m

For an a/c in level flight u=0, so an AB dropped from 750m with a 3 sec fuse will burst at:

B = 750 - (0 + 0.5*9.81*3*3) = 706m

Remember folks, no matter what it is there's always a way of making it less fun!

dduff

Incidentally only 1.2m, or just 2400 tonnes of SC-2s were manufactured in the entire war according to Deichmann. Assuming the bursting container amounted to 1/3 the mass of the entire thing, that's equivalent to just 7200 AB-500s over almost 6 years on all fronts. They were always in scarce supply.

Woops that supposed to be 480 KPH not MPH

...giving a burst alt of 411m, just about perfect.

I hope adding the new content doesn't cause more bugs than we already have.

Debugging /correcting is less popular than adding new stuff for those actually doing it.

Possibly they don't have the tools or time to work out exactly how to correct these problems, unless they are really not bothered.

Its just strange when you compare the effect of different countries bombs the Germans have the worst for damage per Kg v Lbs when converted.

I have many maps for testing bombers and payloads effects from DM testing running flights over flak batteries and targets areas, thing have progressively got worse over the years with the addons/patches within the game core not just graphical bugs but AI routines and if anyone remembers the rubber bullets axis had with the 20mm this was a more easily spotted "bug" as it was a more commonly used weapon.

Old bugs need priority IMHO :)

If anything I think a lack of time is the biggest issue... there is always more to do than there are people. Especially when time is volunteered. Nonetheless I would send your testing results and materials to them if you can... Oleg barely had time for the product in the later years but TD is taking it pretty seriously.

TBH I hadn't noticed a decrease in power. AB bombs have always been very hard to deploy but SC bombs have always gotten the job done for me. And I do a lot of bombing online. Not to say that some of the weapons have declined in effectiveness or have bugs now that they didn't before... just that it isn't that noticeable to me personally.

The difference between the buggered up MG151/20 and the fixed version was much more noticeable :)

Just a quick revision on the AB bombing thing as I got my imperial and metric mixed up in an earlier post :)

Just redone some testing

Seems like the optimum effect using these bombs is strange and seems to have changed yet again.

Ju88A4 2 x AB1000 Stuvi set to 500kph 3000m bomb delay 3 seconds

This give maximum spread and damage still very poor results.

Ju88A4 4x AB500 Stuvi set to 500kph 3000m bomb delay 3 seconds

This give maximum spread and damage still very poor results.

Still testing though, you might want to try your selves and see if there's a better setup for the AB bombs

The best AB bombing technique I know of is using something fast like a FW190. Sight the target, initiate your run... drop to 50 meters and about 4 seconds before the target do a shallow pull out and drop the bomb (using 2 second delay). The bomb will initially fly just above the target and disperse the bomblets in a very tight formation at the front of the target area. I've killed as many as 8 tightly grouped tanks doing this.

The timing is VERY hard and to this day I can only pull it off every so often.

Also skip bombing the AB1000 along the ground can produce some devastating results... or it can be a total dud too.

would be interesting to see a track of that.:confused:

Can destroy tanks like russian AJ-2? do you use it against hard or soft targets?

Not sure what an AJ-2 is (different name perhaps?) but I've killed T-34s and KV-1s doing this. AB500's have AP bomblets so if you do get a hit... it'll probably be a kill.

I'll try and do a track sometime soon of the process. Hard to pull off like I said.

Apologies for clip quality.

4xAB500

Only 2 soft targets killed out of 50 trucks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQEHzZoKyhg

Please, show me a video with german AB bombs killing some hard ground unit, for example a single tank.


Thanks KG26_Alpha for the video. I hope that with the time all these kind of things get historically reworked.

Here we go:
http://cid-d368795040548bdd.office.l...-tankbust.ntrk

My joystick was a little funny so I didn't get the run I wanted but I did manage to kill 3 T-34 tanks with one AB500 bomb. Note the late pull out and 1.5 second bomb delay to cluster the bombs in a tight area.

Like I said... my best was 8 tanks with a single bomb.

At 2500 meter pull out (or thereabouts) the area that you cover is going to be very wide. I guess that's the idea with a cluster bomb ... but if we're going for effective use... it's better to have a concentrated drop rather than a spread like that.

Did anyone have a look? Did what I posted help anyone?

S!

Watched it. I did test similar approach, but the bomb seems very ineffective. The convoy I attacked lost 4 trucks, not a single tank and they were in the middle of the "cluster". I think the main gripe people have with the AB compared to the Russian counterpart PTAB is that it requires less hits to get more kills with PTAB than AB.

As far as I know it only takes a single hit for both PTAB and the AB bomblets... the "problem" is that the PTAB is more like the modern bomblet dispensers that they use on Tornadoes... they drop and spread beneath the aircraft whereas the AB is a more abstract system. You drop the bomb... then it explodes... then you hope the bomblets hit the target.

I blew the timing yesterday online and the bomblet exploded as it hit the ground next to the tank meaning the bomblets burried themselves in the ground and did nothing.

Still if you time it right you can take out large numbers of tanks. Once again... I've managed to take out 8 in one AB500 drop... It was hard and the tanks were clustered but it is possible. You need to use the same approach that I did. The only thing I can't speak to is the actual modeling of the bomb and if that is accurate. I have no idea... I just try and make it work.

Can anyone confirm this info for IL2 1946.

AB-250 Has SD-2 anti personnel fragmentation bombs

AB-500 Has SD-4 antiarmour bomblets

AB-1000 Has incendiary bombs

Thanks

Killing grounds with AB bombs should not be depending on "perfect timing and aiming ability". I think it would be easy same like in Russian alternative. Btw, thanks for the video.

Thank you very much Icefire, i will watch the video.le.

.....

Thermite is what they used as incendiary surely ?

I was I suppose asking if some one with access to the weapons damage tables to have a look and see what's in there :)

I am sorry, i can't see the track, gives me an error when trying to watch :( . Anyway, i trust your word.

It's just a standard NTRK... put it in your records folder, load up IL2, and have a watch. It'll work under any version.

I cannot access the code right now, so I cannot verify this. AB 1000 most certainly has incendiary bomblets, which makes it very ineffective against everything else except houses. I recall that the incendiary rods were either B2EZ (http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/LRG/b2ez.htm) or B2.2EZ (http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/LRG/b22ez.htm)

AB 500 has SD 4 HL bomblets http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/LRG/sd4hl.htm

AB 250 has SD 2 butterflies http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/LRG/sd2.htm

4.10 introduces new AB 23 bombs (http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/LRG/ab23sd2.html). Hs 129 carrying 2xAB 23 equals only 46 SD 2 butterflies, which is far less than AB 250 carries. It's very easy to wipe out whole vehicle column with 2xAB 23.

AB 23s were used in Africa lot agains soft targets to save expensive tungsten rounds. Against tanks these bombs are quite useless.

Would be interesting to see why the Russian cassette load out is so devastating compared to German 4 x AB 500

Also

SD-2 or Butterfly bombs used to litter the streets here in London.

I remember my Grandad had some deactivated ones in his garage.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWsnfK-MeCE

I think they may have contained something similar to the AZh-2 incendiary ampulets fired by soviet grenade launchers.

http://www.stalingrad-info.com/206.JPG

But I am no expert on Soviet ordinance and may have that wrong.