Orcs on the March thread
 

I know there's plenty of threads on issues relating to this campaign already, but I thought this could be specifically a gameplay thread.

So, it's like Armored Princess, but with orcs. On Debir I notice a few changes, such as the orc guy on the pier and the island with the mysterious lights. Haven't finished Debir yet but I'm very pleased with a couple of the new units.

Blood Shaman - probably prefer the old Shaman, but I haven't got my adrenaline high enough yet.
Orc Tracker - pretty nice, can spawn units
Engineer- my favourite new unit so far. Very useful. Shock Grenade can potentially blind most of the enemy, and spawning droids is fantastic. Great.

Not having a problem with no-losses so far (level 3 Paladin) but I'll need some Paladin units soon. I think I can turn Guardsmen into Paladins or something, using the new scroll thingy?

i started to play it too. i'm playing impossible warrior and i've just defeated "monster from abyss" :)

i'm using engineers/droids combo (i sneaked to Bolo to steal 'em ;)) and they are really powerful together, have no losses so far. i tried rune mage too, but since i can have right now only one, it isn't very impressive, but in greater numbers and more unspent runes, they could be powerful as well.

i'm planning switch to orcs later when they become available in greater numbers. they seem very interesting with their new adrenalin related abilities.

Been a long time since I played Armored Princess, so I started again at Normal difficulty. No complaints though. The game never gets boring. :grin:

I'm playing as a Mage as it has been my most favorite class since KB:TL.

I like the changes in some units. Orc Trackers are nice. Specially at low levels since they have nice health and can spawn units, as Zhuangzi said. Blood Shaman would be nice in an all-orc army. Have to try it sometime at higher levels. Engineer would be very nice for anyone who likes droids. Rune Mages make up their lack of damage with summon and healing / revive.

I'll post more when I get to higher levels. :-)

I'm level 7 Paladin, but no-loss is getting problematic now, due to all those darn stacks with bears in them. My line-up is: Rune Mage (1), Sea Dogs (61), Guardsmen (51), Inquisitors (27), Witch Hunters (21). And yeah, you could upgrade Guardsman to Paladins, but that'd cost 2000 trophies at the training center - I only have 1200 or so, considering I used up a lot to get Guardsmen from peasants (Debir soon ran out of Swordsmen).

Okay, you definitely need Paladins (the unit). There's a cool trick that you might not be aware of; you can get the first stone on Bolo without having to fight at all. You will need to get into the underground cavern with the droids, click on the head droid that you are supposed to defeat for the stone. He'll attack - you run away. Kite around him and get the item which you return to the place on Debir for the stone. It's an amulet and you can use it for +50 leadership as well. Once you've done that, you should be able to buy Paladins at the Mage tower on Debir. Normally there's only 11 or so, which should be fine for your current leadership.

With Paladins, your job of clearing Bolo without losses should be much easier. You need spawned units (I can highly recommend the Engineer for this) and maybe Slow spells on the strongest bear stack. The Engineer kicks ass in that he has a shock grenade which blinds troops too. :cool:

EDIT: just in general, you don't need to grind your way through Bolo at this stage. What you need is the map to Rusty Anchor or better yet Verona. This may involve a difficult fight but with the Paladins you should be able to manage. Once you've got the Verona map you're golden. There's a ton of loot there that you can kite and normally access to Paladins and Royal Griffins, which were my two staple units for Armored Princess campaigns. It's a bit boring and I'm sure that there are different ways to ensure no-losses, but Paladins are pretty much essential I believe, unless you're going for a single unit attempt, and you would do that as a Mage, not a Paladin.

I spent a couple of hours on my Paladin game this morning, and managed to get up to level 7 very easily by clearing out most of Scarlet Wind. A lot of people don't like Glory but as a Paladin you have a lot of green runes to spend, so I've maxed that out already, and with the second level of Grand Strategy, I'm up to 2700 leadership already. Consequently I'm ahead of what I think of as the 'difficulty curve' in that the enemies on this island are mainly listed as Weak or Slightly Weaker, which is not something you'd normally see on Impossible. :-P

I've had in with the Blood Shaman so I've switched them out for good old Inquisitors. The Engineer on the other hand is a very useful unit for strategic play. Coupled with Paladin's Second Wind ability, you can get two stacks of droids out on turn 1, and then Shock Grenade on turn 2. Orc Trackers are my only orc unit now due to their toughness and ability to summon. Royal Thorns are always useful and you can turn 50 of the green thorns into 1 on Debir. This is a kickass team for the early game and there's little or not chance of ending up with losses. I've discussed how to play this style before so I won't go through it all again, but suffice to say that Engineers are a very welcome addition to the mix.

Scarlet Wind has about 4-5 of the harder fights left on it, and I'm nearly at level 8. I'll mop up all but 2 of those fights easily (the map fights will be left) and then it's on to Bolo for the easier fights there. Then it will be necessary to take on the map guardians for access to Rusty Anchor/Verona.

A couple more things I should mention for those of you who are newer to the game.

- You should always be using the baby dragon's Treasure Searcher ability twice per turn. You'll need the gold on Impossible and you might dig up an Ancient Scroll or two. You also get the Treasure Hunter medal for this over time, which is nice.

- As soon as you get the Trap spell (not until level 6 for me) you should start trying to work toward the Trapper medal. This is harder for the Paladin than it is for a Mage, and it can be frustrating too, but it's useful once completed. Again, this is better for a Mage because of more mana and higher Intellect.

- You can manipulate rage and mana using a number of easily accessible spells and abilities. Inquisitors are great for creating rage, Mana Spring is a godsend for increasing mana, and Mana Accelerator turns rage into mana. I use all of these all of the time. In my current game I've got Distortion 2 and it could even have been Distortion 3 had I wanted (in hindsight maybe I should have gone for it - I picked up the trap spell shortly after).

Just starting our with Paladin on hard, hope to find some lvl 5 units as soon as poss :)

I just finished warrior on impossible but only did 92 quests; does anyone know total number of quests ('m pretty sure I missed at least one contract by killing first and asking questions later). I did not notice so many new quests (just 4 - guy in scarlet; orc sequence (probably counts more as 4) mage tower and trainer training after first stone.
-
I never kite but I might try it in bolo with my mage on impossible. I think long ago I tried once to get the stone without a fight but couldn't get the fellow to chase without fighting.
--
With warrior I played rune mage until the end (when i get the stone in Rhea). Not so sure I like rune mages that much. They had two nice attributes I guess (lots of hp and if you have enough mage runes they can turn victims into sheep). But to be honest they did not pack much of a punch. Even with 200 unused warrior runes I found them a bit lacking.
-
Bit unhappy with how the orc campaign progressed. It was very anti-climatic and I kept looking for a diplomatic solution.
-
Major thing I noticed is that Baal was nerfed in a *big* way and Ulsua was a lot harder.
--
I did not use any of the new troupes other than run mages - just didn't find a use. Went the old route of a stack of summoners (thorns and d's) and by end game I was piling on the thorns. Hum. I guess only other disappointment was lack of being able to complete a set (sort of wish the randommizer would pick a set than guarantee that all the pieces load) and the item from the mage tower didn't do much for me.
--
Hum two things I did a bit different - never used blacknights this game and at the very end picked up the paladin for the fight against Baal.

I also finished the Orc campaign. It was a tough run. Used alot the new Rune mage but only when I had 16 of them they really started getting useful.

I found Baal stronger than in AP though.

I managed to have 2 sets of items for my mage. The lucky set, with 20% critical. and the 20% physical resistance.

The new shamans are freaks, 3 astral attacks in a row than a ranged one targeting my stack of archemages killing all of them.

Thanks, I know that trick - I always get the first stone that way (sometimes I have to reload before entering the catacombs, as the boss droid is not always kite-able.

I got the stone back, but they have only 6 paladins (and I could recruit much more). But no problems - I found 18+5 Horsemen on Rusty Anchor and Scarlet Wind, so they are standing in for the Paladins for now (I can use 12 now). Even got 7 Royal Griffins with a Wind Walker scroll.

I'm doing Bolo now, and it's much easier - my Rune Mage and Royal Griffins spawn summons, Inquisitors/Rune Mages resurrect, and Horsemen and Royal Griffins tank. I use Guardsmen too or Witch Hunters -depending on the enemy troops, sometimes that magic lock comes very handy.

I agree with you about Verona - it is like a sweets-shop for units and items. But, the troops guarding the map are still "lethal" or "very strong" so I'll clean out everyone I can before trying to attack them (and unfortunately, sometimes they are guarding a map I already have).

And yep, Paladins/Royal Griffins rock. On my first walkthrough of AP, I deliberately tried out all the new units first, then went with an all-Lizardmen army when I got to Reha. My initial army was: Trolls, Paladins, Royal Griffins, Guard Droids and Repair Droids. :) Never lost a unit with that combo.

That's kinda my problem with this game now in that some units are so strong that I just continue to use them even when I want to try something else. I started off using the Orcs a bit, but I never had my adrenaline high enough to see much of their best abilities, so I traded them out for good old Paladins, Royal Griffins and Inquisitors. These three are awesome every time. Royal Thorns are great except for the problem in resurrecting them, and so I'll probably trade them out for Knights or Horsemen at some point. The only new unit that I have actually used extensively is the Engineer, which they are some outstanding unit items for.

I have the same problem with very good units, but lately, reading what DGD said, I've been using undeads. They are awesome and very fun to play with.

I managed to resist the urge to use killer units. :) In the original Legend, Royal Snakes and Black dragons rocked, but I have not used a single one in my second walkthrough, going instead with an all-undead army (prior to getting undead, of course I used some other units, and I did use Emerald Green Dragons and Werewolves sometimes).

Even in the first AP walkthrough I told you about, I later dismissed all these units (Trolls, Paladins) for Lizardmen - my line-up was Gorguls, Gorguanas, Tirexes, Hayterants and Brontors. They implement each other quite well - Tirexes tank, Gorguls are the main damage dealers, Hayterants do hit-and run attacks or summon (the egg is also a great shooter-blocker), while Brontors are just very versatile, depending on the situation they can charge right into the enemy lines, or sit back and work as ranged attackers.

I'd be interested in hearing the theory behind using only droids lads

Also the paladin Royal Griffin tactic. I mainly use warrior and paladin so i'm yet to see this startegy for myself without going 30+ rounds of combat, thisis not my idea of fun.

thanks in advance :-P

well, it's too hard for me to play the entire again and again

so i just play for fun~~

goblin shamans can make huge damage at round1 with warrior's skill
(onslaught and rage control,kill at least 15+red dragon and more in late game)

but after that, they cant do better then the little goblins who now get +1damage at LV2 Adrenaline,goblin Catapult have +2 fire damage at LV2 Adrenaline,all this making goblins the best DPS in APCW

it's still easy to beat creeps but hard to keep no loss with Low level troops~~unless i have enough resistant-items

this game i'm not lucky enough :)
http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/attachm...1&d=1286383663

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/attachm...1&d=1286383663

Is there any other way to play? :)

Master! You are back! :) I need your enlightenment: does your KBAP fastest route still hold in KBCW, or do the new quests entail some changes? I see a day 9 finish; new minimum days to complete all quests, or just an effect of the "play for fun"? :)

So I'm currently doing mage impossible around level 13 and finding the game much harder than kb-ap. Can you describe your strategy at low level (I've not yet been to verona as I can't kit that group or kill them yet in bolo). Perhaps I am using the wrong troups (I have paladin, royal snake, 5 thorns, beholder and inquist (but I suspect the inquist are a waste)). Hum. Nothing left to kill on rusty, everything but group guarding verona map on bolo and stuff on rusty anchor is still too hard so i'm feeling stuck :)

Why don't you get the green dragon from Rusty anchor and use it as a tank, that will help.

I got access to the first 4 quite early on by kiteing and even have the map for Tekron at lvl 17. Goblin sharmans destroy my army on Verona lol how the HELL! do you deal with there astral attack!

You need the crown of chaos and ghost armor, but even then you will probably get demolished.

A few key things you can do

- Disable them with magic shackles
- Do NOT feed any orc units with a summon/fodder/tank, since feeding ANY orc unit a kill will beef up EVERY enemy orc unit's adrenaline, which will increase their damage against you.
- If you do go with the "feed" / summon / fodder route because you have no choice, make sure you can counter attack hard, or continue to get them to keep hitting your fodder. They will target some key units, so try to use glot's armor, or phantom that unit, etc.

It's terribly risky though, so get ready for some massive resurrection.

I have put off some of those battles, even if I was +10 levels over the enemy hero, only because of their sheer firepower.

Wouldn't be a problem with Black Dragons, going to need some creative thinking here :)

I never think about sneaking past zig zag; always think about killing him and he's too hard. Anyways I manged to get to verona but it was a total bust; nothing good loaded there - well one small stack of royal griffons but leadership is too low to do much with them. What a bummer.

Black Dragons are exceptionally vulnerable to this. They have zero resistance to astral and you have no way of buffing them or healing them easily.

Perhaps you are thinking about magical damage, in which case, a black dragon is great against that.

Not that healing would help anyway, since they usually end up killing 1-3 black dragons per astral attack.

Something is terribly wrong when a stupid goblin shaman stack destroys my entire 10 black dragon stack in a single turn.

Weird things happens to me, in all my games, crown of chaos and ghost armor always spawn especially when using paladin class.

Back to topic.
I guess it's ok using Black Dragon againts blood shaman or goblin shaman, but you need warrior's caution 3 or paladin's runic armor 3 plus crown of chaos and ghost armor. Better if you have all of that. And you have rune mage to resurrect black dragons, which is available from the start.

I don't know if mass shackle works againts them, last time i check, even when they're mass shackled they can cast that 3 hit astral attack. Maybe those shamans are buggy.

From my experience, all class have their own way to go againts those shamans, either in early game or late game. Though it's better to avoid them in early game.

But if you can have several green dragons, i mean have enough of them to rechage your mana then you can defeat those shamans in early game especially as a mage or paladin, just cast invisibility on your green dragon, then you're free to do anything to those shamans, i mean thin them using any means you deems best, example are poison skull or fire bolt, you also have your pet dragon. Then when your invisibility almost over, use your green dragon to recharge your mana then cast invisibility again, repeat that process.

Anyway, to do that you need the blue dragon pet and paladin adrenaline skill or battle cry spell (i prefer adrenaline), and lots of mana (minimum is 35 or 40 mana).

Sort of sad that you need all of that with the paladin just to block such an overpowered attack. :)

As a mage, I didn't have caution and holy armor, so my entire stack still died with crown of chaos and ghost armor.

That said, magic shackles does work, but you need enough leadership. You can test it by casting magic shackles level 2 and mouse over every unit. If that fails, magic shackles level 3 won't work on it either (fairly certain magic shackles level 3 is just mass magic shackles level 2).

Yeah, i think orc/goblin got the most overpowered unit now, especially the goblin, too bad i'm not a fan of orc and goblin.

It's not just paladin, all 3 classes need those i mentioned above if u want to survive astal attack using black dragon. Ok, i typed wrong, by runic armor above i mean holy armor (paladin class specific skill), and this holy armor doesn't always trigger. But caution 3 + ghost armor + crown of chaos are usually enough, and btw, my mage have caution 3.

Well, if you're lucky, i mean your holy armor also trigger, it can further mitigate their astral attack dmg to the point that it become a joke (too low dmg), last time i remember 3 astral atk from goblin shaman which almost kill 3 BDs instantly become a 200 dmg astral atk.

I need to revisit about the shackles. Well, it's great if it can work againts those overpowered unit, though i bet the leadership in impossible must be considered.

I was wrong, I was thinking of Magic damage. There's some massive stacks of shamans and shaman goblins in Verona (all level 3 adrenalin round 1)

At the moment i'm not sure what i'm gonna do with those fights, I don't have resurrect yet.

I just thought I'd chime in in agreement with the overpowered nature of Goblin Shamans. That astral attack is really, really nasty and seems way overpowered for their leadership. You really have to target them straight away.

The new orc/goblin units are making the game a bit harder for me this time around. I was really grinding through Verona (Impossible Paladin no losses) having to replay several fights and choosing the easiest ones. But now that I'm in Montero (level 24) I seem to be over the hump a little.

Sigh. I'm back to the old team of Paladins, Inquisitors, Horsemen, Royal Griffins and Archmages. Tried and tested team. :cool:

Yup, their damage is way too high for their leadership. If i'm not mistaken, have warrior skill onslaught 3, at lv 50 warrior or paladin can dish 25k dmg to any enemy including bosses in 2 round just by using their several astral attacks (not including those from phantom).

Another overpowered thing about that goblin is the resistance reduction at lv 3 adrenaline, this is especially againts bosses (your red or black dragon can eat baal now).

To my experience, at verona you usually won't meet threatening goblin shaman stacks. Though they become threatening at uzala and elon.

32 Goblin Shamans just caused over 1500 dmg to my mages (5 died) :rolleyes:

So we need Magic Shackles, right? I'll try to find it in Montero before I try Uzala.

Another approach is to block them. One technique I use with some success is phantom royal griffons and then stick 'em in their face. The hard part is getting enough iniitia high enough to obtain the first move. Also there is no guarantee they won't still cast. Also another approach I've begun to learn is that certain critters such as arch-mages seem to be mostly resistant to their damage. While a stack of inquistor can suffer 30+ losses from their attack; a stack of arch-mages will only suffer 2 losses (which is easily recoverable by paladin or resurrection spell).
--
While I'm not playing a no loss game I've not suffer any losses in my mage impossible game since level 11 or so (level 27 now). On the other hand I've avoided Reha and Uzala so far having mostly cleared orc stacks in verona and rusty (though there were quite a few gobliln shaman stacks in those places). I'd like to find the spell shakle before I go to those areas. After all as a mage I should take advantage of it :)

I also have the armor that is 20% astral resistant (crown not found yet).

You can use unicorn or horsemen, cast target on them, you can also move them as close as possible to those shamans (either way works, though if it's orc shaman, you must move as close as possible to them), 100% guaranteed they won't cast astral attack. Work with any class, as warrior and paladin, they have skills that increase defense or dmg reduction type combined with their high def, those unicorn or horsemen is still revivable for no loss game, as mage, just cast target+stoneskin/divine armor.

It's better than casting shackles, especially in impossible, because your shackle leadership cap won't reach those shamans's total leadership.

Yep I will try Horsemen + Target, thanks. I can never go past the Inquisitor's Blade (-20% leadership requirement for Paladins and Inquisitors) so I am locked into a human team of those two plus Horsemen, Archmages and this time Rune Mages instead of Royal Griffins. 10,000 leadership at level 23, and most units are at High or Good morale.

Well, the best thing about human team is they have the best resurector.

Imo that's the only reason why they outshine the other races team.

Hi, my first post here.
I have ended KBCW with Rune mages, Inquisitors, Druids, Black and green Dragons. Some said that dragons are hard to play coz the are hard to revive. I Used to revive dragons by RM, Inq. and by summoning phoenix on 3rd level. Rest of team by spell. Result - no losses. That small orc units makes me furious, when they us their astral spells. My advice? Hit them hard :-P at any cost, at first place - by shots and spells. I figured that best off. spell is geyser. It does physicall damage. My mage has on the end about 5 500 damage with that spell.
Greets

Hello ICECOOL, and congrats on completing the game without losses. I think we can all agree that Goblin Shamans are a royal pain in the ass. Geyser is good for a mage with high Intellect, but not so good for me as a Paladin. No direct damage (i.e. mainly Chaos) spells at all, so I'll need a different strategy...

Thx.
In that case my advice to U is to use more ranged attack units (I had 3) and dragons - they have highest move pionts rate. If U put Ur dragon(s) on the center of the army U`ll be able to attack that nasty unit in first round on most battlefields - by black dragons "splash" damage and green dragons pulling. Eventually u may speed other flying units. And U must not forget about high level of initiative of Ur units so that they could move before shamans do :)

PS. U must rid off that Inquisitor's Blade. In near future U will find much more better "sword" artifacts and that pallandins become more unusefull because of their lack of move points - I switched them for green dragons

That's what Mass Haste on turn 1 is for. :cool:

Yea but for mage (that I`ve played) useing that kind of spell is not best option. I used ball of fire in the beggining, instead

Yeah, paladins end up sitting around a LOT for me. That's why they are probably truly the number one "love/hate" unit in my other thread.

Zhug, it totally depends on your army setup and damage capabilities.

IF you can clearly reach the goblin shaman in round one with a lot of units before he can act, and IF you can do SERIOUS damage to them, I highly suggest casting level 3 Pygmy as your first move.

It is probably the BEST debuff spell for warrior / paladin types in the game, and it is still pretty solid for mages too.

You will do ~66.7% more damage (better than criticals which does 50%) and if they retaliate in physical form, they take a 40% reduction in their attack rating (which doesn't really mean -40% total dmg, more like 33% but it does help a fair amount).

If you CANNOT do serious damage to them, I suggest magic shackles assuming you have enough leadership. It is also another reason why as a mage I was rolling with two marshal batons, etc. Because leadership is truly a king statistics in Impossible mode, unless you are doing something tedious and/or cheesy. :)

Another possibility is Phantom a high target unit, like Rune Mages. They LOVED aiming for my rune mages, especially the phantomed ones. The danger here is, you might end up "feeding" the orcs with an entire round of adrenaline, and trust me, that is NOT good if you can't do serious damage to them in the next round.

If you have engineers, you can disable them using the blind splash thing, but then you will find why I have them on the love/hate relationship thread too. :)

Blind works, but if you do any damage to them (including pre-burning them or poisoning them) they will awaken from it and it only affects one unit. It is a poor man's "magic shackles/fear" in a way and horribly mana inefficient, but it might save you since goblins are very fast and you might need a round to get into position.

Consider the heavy offensive route as sometimes it is the best defense. Remember, as deadly as astral attack is, if you can cut his army down in half before he gets the first move, you just "resisted" 50% extra damage right there. :)

Disabling just buys you time to setup to smash them into oblivion, or you can keep perma-casting it (eeek, shackles and the like are very expensive for that purpose, but again, it might be all the time you need). They can still attack with shackles on, but it is far far less painful than the astral.

Wow... all this talk about goblin shamans. I'm still playing CotA and DotC, but I'll be jumping to OotM soon.

So what level are these goblin shamans that you can't just Fear or Blind them?

Lol dunno. About level 2? That is so hilarious about that. They may have small numbers but they do tons of damage.
Blind or smthg are just half-measure. U must deal with them anyway. Besides they come in few stacks, and as U know there is no "mass blind" spell.
PS. Whats are CotA DotC & OotM ?

<grumbles> this is why I like level 3 magic shackles. Mass Shackle! :)

But at the moments they out leadership you, you got to take desperate measures.

lore, yeah the orcs are grossly overpowered. I am now testing out my Orc Veterans to replace my Assassins, and it is not looking good for the assassins. :) (All because the game only spawned 28 Orc Veterans naturally, so I had to wear that stupid regalia to get the trophies needed to convert normal orcs into Veterans).

Goblin shaman are pretty pitiful damage to leadership, but, in Impossible Mode the computer "cheats" so it has far more leadership anyways. :)

Anyway, they are nothing compared to Blood Shaman, who are Level 4, have far more HP, can do Power of the Horde (thank god this one is magic damage), or yet another Astral Attack which will turn Black Dragons into silly putty.

Icecool, those are the names of the other campaigns

Champion of the Arena (CotA)
Defender of the Crown (DOTC)
Orcs on the March (OOTM)

Yeah, totally agree on that.

Back to shamans (goblin and orc), there are many ways to go againts them. But, seriously, they appear late in the game, and at that time, most of you already have many tricks againts them. Imo the hardest battle againts astral attack is in elon (againts the orc chief), the rest are easy compared to that battle.

Goblin shaman is not that overpowered if they become your enemy (in fact, they're just normal as there are many ways to handle them, well, if you look at the dragons in montero, they do way more dmg than them), but they're insanely overpowered if you use them (especially if you're warrior or paladin), reason? 25k-30k dmg in 2 turn in late game (not counting the phantomed one)

As for orc shaman, they are ok to me.

Well, here is another cheap way againts them, just have a minimum of 35 mana, several green dragons, invisibility, posion skull spell or any other spell you deem necessary, ball of lightning/dragon dive/dragon tail/mana accelerator. Cast invisible on green dragon, then you're free to do with them (shamans), before invisible disapear always remember to replenish mana with green dragon then cast invisible again, repeat that, should win easily without much thought and no losses.

Aside from bypassing resistances, does their astral attack bypass the Defense statistic as well?

I'm thinking all these new astral-damaging units are hurting the mage and paladin class more. This is because on impossible, aside from Invisibility tactics, most tactics from these two classes rely heavily on buffing their units. The warrior does have enough of a leadership advantage to rely primarily on unit damage and "resurrecting" troops, and just minimal buffing.

See attached battle I had with Elenhel in KBAP with warrior on impossible. Droids and undead, -50% (vulnerability) and 0% base resistance to magic. And yet they wiped the floor with these magic-wielding enemies and hero in just 14 rounds at no-loss.

I'm still getting excited with all these talks about the new goblin and orc units. :) I sure hope they do put up a good fight as warrior on impossible usually just means the only serious battles that you have are the initial battles at the lower levels and the boss fights.

I guess it somehow bypass defense, but not all defense (i've done the test few weeks ago), since i've got different value of astral attack dmg that attack my two stacks, and both from the same source (same number).

Paladin class is also on par with warrior in case of mass resurection, though you need to take lv 3 resurection skill (+30% if not 35% to paladin prayer skill and inquisitor resurection skill). Though imo all classes have their own way to resurrect.

All 3 classes are equally capable to deal with those shamans. I've played all those three several times on impossible no loss games.

However, if you talk about which class is the best to utilize them to their full potential, the winner goes to warrior, and paladin as a close second, and sorry for mage.

Well, by the time you meet those shamans, usually you already at lv 45 or higher, and at that lv, all 3 classes pretty much mop the floor with their own unique way.

Shamans are not overpowered as your enemy, they are overpowered as your ally (especially warrior and paladin).

Wrong

They are overpowered regardless.

Have a nice day :grin:

Dont get excited so much :grin: There is about ONE orc battle in opposite to AP - that is orc hero in shettera. And thats it. This pisses me off. I felt cheated from producers:evil: "NEW ORC CAMPAIGN", "ORC ON THE MARCH", etc. - bullshit! There are no orcs marching in KBCW!
Besides all that talk about those goblin shamans is not that they are unbeatable or smthg. I kicked their asses :-P, but they have done so many damage that there were not enough mana to revive all my units, so I`ve got some tolls and I got pissed from that.

Let me guess, you use mage class?

Because as warrior and paladin, it's no problem resurecting units againts scrounger, maybe because their leadership is very high thus it means more phantomed paladins (mass resurection), and besides they can reduce astral attack dmg easily (caution 3 and holy armor 3).

As for mage, i think mage is more inclined to use single stack of unit than the other 2 classes.

I had a tough time against them as a mage, but I beat them by using the phantom feed to buy enough cannon fodder for my army to slowly whittle them down.

Then I threw a Black Hole or two. I never used offensive magic in that game yet.

Yes, I could have definitely used Caution 3 and/or Holy Armor 3. :)

Astral attack does bypass ALL defense statistics, except Astral Resistance. Caution 3 and Holy Armor aren't the basic "defense" stat, that's why they work.

Blood shaman does astral attack too, normal orc shaman are just mere magic attack.

Right now I am rolling around with a very powerful orc team that is basically creaming everything until I run into goblin shaman.

I run into the goblin shaman team... somehow, not able to reach the 400 goblin shaman stack in time while killing the other stacks and and I lost my entire 85 Paladin stack in a SINGLE TURN, and take severe casualities across the board.

Of course, this time I didn't have the chaos crown or ghost armor yet, so I had to go on a mission to specifically look for these items. Mind you, even with them, I will still take severe losses unless I deal with that stack properly.

I don't know about you guys. I have never lost an entire stack that easily before in this game before.

My mage lost his stack of 10 black dragons IN A SINGLE TURN WITH 70% astral resistance.

That said, orcs ARE overpowered. Therefore, I shall abuse. :)

Orc Veterans are like the most ideal phantom units in the game now. Plus, with Adrenaline Level 3 and Moldok, they become some of the fastest and strongest no retaliation units in the game. I just killed Driller in 7 rounds, Impossible Mode - Warrior, No-Loss.

Paladin, Goblins, Orc Veterans. Goblins were indeed the main power house thanks to Zeroing In, but throwing in an extra 3-4K damage from teh Orc Veterans helped a ton.

The reason WHY orcs are strong is because of the way Adrenaline works. A lot of "cannon fodder" tactics end up feeding the enemy with more adrenaline, thus, they do more damage and gain far more insane abilities.

Goblin shaman do 20-25 Astral Damage per goblin, and they can attack up to 3 times if they have level 3 Adrenaline. The computer always starts with around level 2 adrenaline too. 400 Goblins * 20 = 8000 damage * 3 = 24000 damage in a single round if you have no astral resistance and that's the WORST case scenario. Afterwards they can still attack too, but that's nothing. :)

Yep

I don't know how both of you play your mage, but from my observation mage class is inclined towards using single stack unit. Most peoples play mage like that. Armies are for warrior and paladin.

And the best dragon for mage is emerald, not black nor red, emerald dragon + invisible works best with mage (that's one of cheap tactic beside eviln+BK or BD+spells), because mage has the highest mana, can cast more than 1 spell/turn, their offensive spells are the most dmg ing (due to having highest int), also must be remembered that high lv offensive spell need very high mana (again, it's mage expertise).

I don't know why your entire stack got killed by 24k astral dmg with 70% astral resistance, that 24k astral dmg should become a joke with 70% astral resistance coupled with caution 3 (any class can take it, all my mages always have caution 3), if you have holy armor 3 triggered, just laugh at their dmg.

Sorry, I was talking about two different armies. None of my mages have caution, as it costs too much for me normally and usually I have phantoms and such to tank, so I don't usually need caution.

I might add it in though, since it seems like that would help against Ktahu's first attack.

All of them have frenzy now though. :)

Normally, if I were going to do a solo stack build, like solo black dragon, then I would take caution as a mage.

Well, that's just ONE goblin stack. :) They still got the Blood shaman which also do astral damage.

So, my Warrior with 0% astral resistance and no caution, lost an entire stack to 24K damage.

My mage, with 70% astral resistance, no caution, lost most of my black dragons to the goblins, then it got finished off later on in the same turn by some other imbalanced orc unit. :)

Either way, pretty crazy stuff.

Yeah, I am not too big a fan of the single stack bit since it seems to lead to tedious and long battles. Although, with the emeralds, it might not be so bad due to the mana recovery trick.

I usually just play mega support as a mage. I really hate how no-loss impossible boss battles take so long for most people because they go with "single stack".

Well, for mage, single EGD is better than BD, faster battle, need no thought, just spam invisible, refill mana, and spam spell and pet dragon you deem necessary, one or two careless move(s) is ok, unlike with black dragon, not only you'll have longer battles, you must be extra careful too, lest no loss game. Though in early game, single BD is easier.

Well, i never a fan of single stack too, and i never use single stack againts bosses, not a fan of BK+eviln too (cheapest single stack tactic).

Paladin seems the best againts those shamans, not only it have caution 3, but holy armor 3 too. For me, Caution 3 is a must pick skill, even as mage.

Yeah, I think someone here used single Black Dragon as a challenge. Emerald is definitely a more practical single stack build for mages.

I always wanted to do a damage build mage, and now I have a way to do it. Thanks for the tip!

You mean blood shaman, right? I can take the Dancing Axe Shaman easily with the Chaos Crown and some miscelleneous magic resistance item.

I might incorporate Caution 3 in my future mage builds. Thanks for the info.


[edit]
To give you guys an idea of how insane the Orcs are in Impossible....

Just beat Rakush after procuring both the Crown of Chaos and Ghost Armor, conferring a 70% astral resistance, and I got Caution 3.

He has too many stacks of goblin shaman, and he probably out leaderships me as I am only level 37 for me to use Magic Shackles. He has about 800 Goblin Shaman total, but as 4 different stacks. I end up killing 200-300ish before they can act.

His Goblin Shaman was feeling genocidal and all aimed for my Super Goblin (tm) stack. I originally had 436.

I end up with 26 Goblins by the end of the first round. This is with nearly every possible defense known to the game. I have a leather dress, but come on, I hardly doubt 75% astral will do much vs 70%. (Plus, I like getting more trophies).

I use Turn Back Time and proceed to turn him into silly putty. Once my orcs get into range, nothing lasts for very long.

I hold back before doing the final punches, and use two more Turn Back Times with the paladins to undo all the damage.

But there was no way I could recover from a 410 goblin loss without Turn Back Time.

436 goblins... 70% astral resistance, 30% caution... 26 left. You guys be the judge.

We still debating whether Goblins are overpowered? :-P

Hmm, guess so. Though to me, they are not that overpowered as enemy, though it's different as ally.

edit: well, here's my story with rakush
My fight againts rakush was not that hard, i was paladin lv 45, and maybe because i use dryads (i don't know why, since KB TL these chicks always in my team), inquisitor, hunter, paladin, and black dragon (replacing inquisitor and hunter with faun and ancient ent also does the same results). Other things which are also a very big help are 70% astral resistance, adrenaline 3, holy armor 3, onslaught 3, caution 3, voice of dragon 3, and as for spells are sheep lv 3 and blind 3.

Well, at turn 1, no astral attack thanks to dryads (mass sleep), hunters and inquisitors (they shoot them to dead, about 350 ish goblin shamans dead, the rest 500 shamans are sleeping :)), while paladins are closing in (helping dryad got second turn so they can summon thorns), black dragon wait to get into position so that at turn 2 they can torch those shamans to oblivion, at the end of turn 1 i casted mass haste (so paladins and thorns can help the team, unfortunately they just took the leftover stacks).

At turn 2, about 200 ish shamans are sheeped, leaving the rest 300 dead due to black dragon + inquisitor + hunter, and the rest of the shamans didn't even have a chance to act in the next turn (dead in sheep form :)). The rest of the stacks are joke. The most dangerous threat of the battle was pretty much ended in turn 3 (all shamans dead), the rest just left me digging treasures and helping my pet dragon gain exp, mass resurecting was done once by paladins's prayer (no phantom, no time back).

I found Witch Hunters pretty usefull against all sort of shamans - one Magic Lock, and they are reduced to melee units for 3 rounds (save for the Goblins, who are still pretty strong ranged units).

If I were a Mage, with 2 casts per round, I'd start off with Magic Lock Level III. I doubt Scrounger can dispel.

Heh. I only wanted to prove 70% astral resistance and 30% caution doesn't work nearly as well as one would think. I forgot about dryads, as I have never used them before, and the computer usually uses thorns, not lullaby.

Lullaby probably won't work on level 4 blood shaman though, which basically does the same thing as goblin shaman. :)

If I had dryads, yes, I would have swept them quite easily as well. I will keep that in mind for next time though, as rakush was always one of the more annoying heroes for me.

As for scrounger, I think he out leadershipped my magic shackles and/or the army was too strong for me not to use like pygmy, phantom, etc.

Again, Impossible Mode. In hard mode, maybe a different story.

Well, i don't know about you, 70% astral resist and caution 3 (30% dmg reduction) cuts 24k astral dmg to about 5k, for me it's a very high reduction, making units that is beyond revivable for no loss game easily revivable.

Off course it's just turn 1, that's why, those reduction is not meant to make your battle easier past turn 1 till the end of the battle, it's just make the beyond revivable one become revivable (i mean it's just a precaution step if they use astral attack at turn 1, which they often do, and those reduction saves your day), then all things remains the same, i mean you must solve your problem quickly (especially after turn 2) just like any hard battle, the key remains the same, racing againts time (in this case the turn).

That's why you sheep/blind the blood shaman and mass sleep the goblin with dryads. I told you shackles are not worth it in previous page. Especialy as mage, you can disable 2 goblin/orc shamans stacks at once / turn (blind,sheep) , again 70% astral resist and caution 3 are not meant to turn your super hard battle become super easy battle, it mean to turn a loss game battle to no loss game battle.

edit:
Ah yep, i forgot about witch hunter, never tried them againts shamans though, and i guess witch hunter lock has leadership cap too (that means not all shamans stack are lockable), still, i'll try them next time, nice info btw.

I don't think anyone is debating the reduction in damage as being useful. It is just ridiculous that one has to go that far just to BARELY survive? :)

Yeah, depends on the stack make up. I think rakush's team has a > 55K leadership stack in there somewhere.

Ugh, blind and sheep are so expensive together. How much mana do you usually have? Isn't that like 60 mana? I guess that isn't too bad since it lasts for 2 rounds, but ugh.

Witch hunter has no leadership cap and would be nice here, but after a certain point you still need killer units. :)

Well... I'm on my second play (first was warrior impossible; current is mage impossible) and I think you are perhaps over-reacting. Yes this has beefed up orcs quite a bit and yea I've redone a few fights to adjust troops but all in all I'm not having a really hard time yet. I'm not playing no lost but since level 12 or so I've only lost 8 troops and that was because I was too lazy to redo the fight.

What I have found is that in certain fights changing troops with those in reserve is very important. Anyways it might be a bit more difficult for no loss games but it is hardly impossible.
(I might feel different between now and the end; as I know from my warrior game there are 3 or 4 really hard fights yet to be done).

You forgot a spell called target, instant disable all goblin shaman and orc shaman stacks in battlefield, though againts orc shaman, you must enter orc shaman's move range.

Anyway, orc shaman astral dmg is not that high, goblin shaman does way more dmg, so just cast target then sheep/blind, or vice versa.

Choose beetwen Sheep or blind (depends on your situation).

Well, dryads, witch hunter, target, sheep/blind are good againts those shamans. You can have no loss battle againts scrounger using those things.

edit:
I'm trying witch hunter, it seems they're best for warrior and paladin, as they're still killer because of their number (idk about mage).

Ah, everyone talks about target, but I rarely use it. So, if the enemy CAN hit the target with normal attacks, it will? That's why you pointed out the movement range for the shaman, right?

So you mean it will disable their special attacks because they will be forced to attack normally? Hmmm. yes that could be very handy.

Yeah, I already beat scrounger with no loss, but this will be much easier, thanks!

Yep, Target will make the enemy use a melee or ranged (whichever is their normal attack) against the Target-ed unit. Be mindful that Mind Immune units are not affected, AFAIK.

Also, Blood Shamans have the Power of the Horde, which is also a very nasty spell, though it does only attack one unit. I hope the english patch is released soon, because right now, even a few Goblin/Blood Shamans can cause much more damage then what'd be acceptable for units of their level. Regular Goblins are over-powered too, it is almost like their axes ignore physical resistance and defense, especially when they use their slam-back attack.

I still use Witch Hunters for some tough fights, but sadly, even with a Paladin, their leadership/damage ratio is not too high. They are best used to attack units who already retaliated, as their attack/defense and damage, even with their beneficial spells, is low. Their only saving grace is their low HP and magic resistance. I found them immensely usefull againts Gremlin Towers, as the Friendly and Evil Gremlins will often cast their debuff spells on them, and since it disappears immediately, the next tower will cast it again on them, and so on... :)

Yep, and goblin shaman use ranged attack, which always able to hit your targeted stack, making them 100% never use their astral attack.

As for orc shaman, its astral attack dmg seems far inferior to that of the goblin shaman, so i usually disable goblin shaman first.

Target is overpowered spell.

As for scrounger, just make her goblin shaman and orc shaman never use their astral attack (especially the goblin) and you have no loss battle, you probably also need to have very high defense (and attack too).

edit:
So, the defense ignoring thing about goblin and orc is because of bug? I mean the dev never intended to work like that?

"""
I hope the english patch is released soon, because right now, even a few Goblin/Blood Shamans can cause much more damage then what'd be acceptable for units of their level. Regular Goblins are over-powered too, it is almost like their axes ignore physical resistance and defense, especially when they use their slam-back attack.
""

Highly doubt it. It is just they wanted to make it strong for when you use them, but they never considered the balance issues when it is used against you, especially at higher levels of play like Impossible where the enemy routinely has waay too much leadership.

I mean, not much point in calling it Orcs on the March if the orcs blatantly sucked.

I think you are probably underestimating the Goblin's TRUE power. They were always potentially strong, because they have very unique abilities.

a) Zeroing In
b) Giant Killer (not sure if this was in the original or not)

Zeroing In means that every round the goblin attacks, his attack goes up by 5. Yes, I said every round. That means as time approaches infinity, the goblin will EASILY achieve +60 attack over your defense, so he will always do 3X more damage than his base, even with a normal attack.

This is not even considering the new orc modifications. Those mods just gave him a chance to do poison damage and a +1 to damage, which is a fairly powerful buff, but nothing compared to its native skill.

Giant Killer means if you dare to use a level 5 to hit it, get ready to take an additional 30% damage from the goblins.

Again, abilities that were around before the modifications.

It is also why my Super Goblin stack is the most damaging stack I have ever created. :) Thanks to "Unstoppable" ability (again, an ability that existed before the Orcs on the March patch), I have a chance to attack multiple times in a single round. (At least twice so far, not sure if it is capped).

Once my goblins hit +60 Attack over Defense, with 100% crit, I do about 12K per hit easily. And this is not even at maximum leadership yet. Merely like level 37. I've probably already thrown up to 18K per hit too. I think I already projected dealing close to 20-30K by end game. Throw in Orc's "Second command" ability and a Paladin's Second Wind, I throw another 12K+ damage again. Each time I throw, I have a chance to throw yet again and again.

I'm glad they are buffing Goblins more in the next patch. Mwhaha. :)

I'm sorry, but that's not what the problem is.

I was facing about 100-120 Goblins in two stacks, and have cast Oily Cloud on them, reducing their ranged damage by 50%. Now, attacking with their ranged attack, they did about 120 damage to my Archmages (on the other half of the screen), who had a pretty high defense. Then, next round... they used these slam-attacks, which killed about 2-3 Archmages for every hit! I checked the descriptions, that attack should not do much more damage then their regular ranged attack, so my guess is, it simply ignores the Oil Cloud de-buff. Oh yeah, and this was round 2, so Zeroing In should not be brought up here. Giant Killer is new for Crossworlds, btw.

For Goblin Shamans, again, the Astral Damage is one thing - sure, no-one has resistance against it. However, it also works as a spell works, cast by your hero - meaning, there is no "attack roll" and the enemy's defense is not taken into consideration. And that is unfair, and should not work this way, because every other spell cast by your creatures so far in AP and TL took defense into consideration - I'm thinking of the Dancing Axes of the Shaman, or the Reign of Fire of the Black Dragons, or the Life Leech of the Demonologist. The Goblin Shaman's attack works like an astral-damage spell cast by your hero, which would indeed not take Defense into consideration. To add insult to injury, the Goblins can even act AFTER they have cast this horribly overpowered spell!

Hmm I thought Giant Killer was available for the Furious Goblins at a minimum, but it doesn't seem to be in the manual, so I guess it is new.

Ok, so it is a normal ability, not a "ranged attack", so it bypassed your oil cloud. Sounds fair, considering it drains adrenaline from the goblins. Just call it... "Magic Missile." :)

Huh? I am fairly certain Dancing Axes is NOT affected by defense (the Defense Score), neither is Reign of Fire, or Life Leech. They are only affected by the unit's resistances, no more, no less. Most higher level monsters do have native resistances, so they might seem to take less damage, but pretty sure you can have a Defense of 999, and it will not change the damage one iota.

So, there is nothing outrageous about the ability bypassing the Defense stat. It just does way too much damage.

You could argue that the computer should NOT be allowed to start with Adrenaline Level 2 with orc armies. I'm not completely sure if this is a passive ability of the Blood shaman or not. If it is, then it is merely a bad game mechanic, where they never considered how deadly this would be on the other end of the stick.

Well ,the fact proves that you're completely wrong my friend, BB Shockwave is the one that is right. Ok, i'll do some detailed analysis.

All abilities never bypass defense, ok then, try to use your black dragon reign of fire to hit giant for example, then hit peasant with the same black dragon, do you notice the very high dmg difference, note that both have 0 fire resistance, well... how do you explain that? that's because of giant and peasant high defence difference.

Besides the astral attack and probably the other orcs abilities, there are no abilities (be it skills or talents) that bypass defence status.

Goblin axe thrower in AP doesn't have Unstopable ability, only Zeroing. Check it again for yourself (revert to your AP campaign).

Again you're wrong, dancing axe never bypass defence status, at least in AP, though it seems the same in CW, my lv 5 stacks never bothered by dancing axe, even if it's from hundreds of orc shaman, yet astral attack from goblin shamans and orc shamans (especially goblin shaman) does much more dmg than dancing axe, i have 70% astral resistance and 50% magic resistance. However that dacing axe hit very hard to my low lv stacks, which explain they don't bypass defence status like astral attack.

Note that dancing axe and astral attack of goblin shaman have same damage, yet the astral attack does way more damage than dancing axe. The only explainable reason is that astral attack bypass defence, while dancing axe are not. I know with the same leadership, you can field more goblin shaman, so even if their damage are the same, goblin hit harder, indeed, but why the diffence is so high.

Note that goblin shaman leadership is 130, orc shaman is 200. Let's say you have 4k leadership (20 orc shamans, 30 goblin shamans) and your target has 0 astral and 0 magic resistance, without considering the defence stat, at same leadership goblin shaman should hit with 50% more damage than dancing axe to target with , but the fact proves otherwise, i mean goblin hit like 250-400 % more dmg than dancing axe, reasonable explanation? Astral attack bypass defence.

Ok, i don't care if those shamans are enemies or orc are overpowered (i admitt orcs are the most overpowered race now), but the problem is player can field them. Because orcs are so overpowered, most KB players especially those that never play 2 previous installment, tend to stick with orcs. This limit the troop choice of this game which destroy one of the purpose and beauty of the game.

Thanks for the confirmation, Atlatea. I think it was a mishap on the developer's side - they wanted an attack that bypasses all Resistances - hence the Astral Damage - but in their error they also made the attack bypass all Defense as well.

I think, after the fix, Goblin Shamans and Blood Shamans will still be powerfull, but not ridiculously over-powerfull. I mean, their attack will still do Astral Damage, something that no enemy has resistances against, thus a Blood Shaman's Astral Strike against a Black Dragon will do more damage then a Shaman's Dancing Axes.

And yeah, the only units who can act again after killing an enemy (or taking damage) in AP were the Gorgul, Gorguana, Demon and Executioner (and the Assassin after using Murder). Goblins, I remember, even with Zeroing in, were laughably weak enemies, I never had any problems against them.

Why guess? Let's do the math to truly confirm. If what is said is true, the door swings both ways and it means abilities can converge to 3X damage if Attack/Defense come into play. I just did a quick test, it does! My lone emerald dragon was able to do 160ish damage while sporting a ~+40 attack advantage, but the base damage is only 50-70.

40*0.033 =~ 1.2, so
1.2 + 1 = 2.2 so
(50-70)*2.2 ~ 110-154.

It also means, on the same token, the Orc attacks can never do 3X damage from the base damage, but the base damage is so high, this hardly matters. ;(

I stand corrected, I thought it didn't work that way. This makes me look at the Defense stat in a totally different way now (and the Attack Stat).

I tend to agree it was probably an oversight, or if they intend to have it be a neutral attack (unable to increase and unable to decrease), it should have a lower setting.

Sniffles, in long matches, those goblins started doing some big damage to me. I've always been intrigued by them due to the zeroing in ability. :)

Now cmon, that's impossible. I am sorry for my disbelief :confused: but Scrounger has a lethal level of danger in my current campaign. And I am pretty sure that you can't make all of her units miss from causing you enough damage from which you can't recover completely. Even with paladins and other res units. I am trying to beat her without many casualties but it's very hard, let alone with no loss.
Care to give you strategy, or what units did you use? Thank you

Atlatea did it too and detailed his methods, which seemed to be more efficient and it sounds like you used a Paladin.

I was a Mage, Scrounger starts off as Invincible for my Level 55 Mage, so I am going to assume you are a Paladin or Warrior.

I don't think my method was particularly elegant, but this is what I did.

My army make up was
Rune Mages, Trolls, Orc Chieftain, Black Dragons, and Shaman.

Rune Mages was probably my key saving unit.

I would basically just delay/tank as much as possible. I know it would feed them into max Adrenaline (and higher), but it was the method I went with since I could not easily revive them all if I lost more than 70% of any stack in round 1.

The enemy really liked killing my rune mages, so I would Phantom them ASAP.

I would even use Mystic Egg a couple of times and released at least two Black Holes. I might have threw one Ball of Lightning, but again, my main concern was ensuring any other unit was soaking hits but my own. :)

Shaman would mass heal the level 5 units with dancing axes (thus, saving me from consuming a revive with the rune mages), OR throw a ward in front of them JUST to suck up one hit.

My units were all high level, so I would use phantom rune mages to restore everything, sometimes even double casting it to ensure I had

- a reserve revive
- ability to sheep on attack (has to be ranged)
- call up a meat shield

It was a little while ago, but I am fairly certain I started off with one phantom and one black hole. They had ogres and they would always drain me in that critical first round, and it was particularly frustrating. The blackhole starter usually ended up killing them in the beginning.

The general strategy was to form meat shields, delay as long as possible while sneaking in more attacks via Black Hole, pygmy, phantom tanks and disable as much via Runemages/Phantoms. While the rune mages was the key enabler unit, the trolls would end up being the real heroes, since they would converge on maximum 300% dmg bonus as everything started dying. I relied on the Ogre Set to give me the leadership boosts and that's why I was so dead set on using trolls and orc chieftains (since orc chieftains are basically ogres with a new skin, it seems they inherit the underlying characteristics).

I am pretty sure I was down to the last phantom/revive and such and nearly out of mana. It was very long. (~20 turns?) Very tough for me. I should have went in with more disable in mind I think.

Anyways, I think atlatea's method is much easier and cleaner. He beats it in like 5 rounds and heals it all with just one paladin prayer!

He used dryads to lullaby the goblin shaman, threw a disable at a shaman too (sheep or blind). Since he is a paladin class, it made sense he had paladins and inquistors in his army for the 40% bonus damage.

Then he would bear down on the key units. Standard divide and conquer methods.

He also had black dragons too. I think his post is detailed within this very thread and he probably can tell you more of the finer details.

Actually, no ckdamascus, my method was no better than you, i guess you read it wrong, it's not scrounger (imo it's impossible to beat her in 5 rounds), but rakush.

Well, it was the same againts scrounger, delaying them, using mystic egg, need a bit of luck, probably mine is safer due to disabling all shamans at early stage, but then again, another problem also arise, orc chieftain and ogre also proves to be serious damage dealer, combined with the poison from that 1k goblin axe thrower, they can do dmg that is beyond revivable for no loss game.

But, it's possible to win againts scrounger with no loss in impossible, it's just hard and long (mine was abouth 25 turn if i remembered right). Too bad i left my screenshot at my PC at home (atm i'm using notebook and far from home).

The key is to evade astral attack from goblin shaman, in other words, disable goblin shaman asap (and orc shaman if you can), then it's a matter of troops placement. Also need very very high defence and attack (i have about 27 attack and 44 def).

Since i'm using paladin i can't disable both shamans at once. My troops are dryad, rune mage, paladin, hunter, black dragon. I use dryads (onslaught 3 and caution 3 are a must have) to disable goblin shaman and lv 1-3 stacks at turn 1, while using sheep at orc shaman. But the weird thing is, scrounger teleported her orc shaman right next in front my paladin (i'm lucky), then i move my black dragon hoping that two ogre stacks won't hit it, well, i don't know why those two ogre attacking my paladin. Then i just move rune mage, and hunter to a safe place and block them with summons (from rune mage and dryad). Turn 2, i cast target to paladin, my paladin tank both ogres and orc chieftain and the rest of the ranged stacks, while black dragon and bone dragons (got it from eggs) help thining those ogre and orc shaman, rune mage and hunter thining goblin axe thrower (i hate its poison). Turn 3, stone skin at paladin and moving my paladin so only 2 ogre and 1 orc chieftain stacks can attack it (effectively disabling other melee stacks), the rest is the same (thining dangerous threats), turn 4 phantoming dryads for more summons, fodder and diversion, then bone and black dragons goes helping dryad and rune mage to thin goblin axe thrower, goblin shaman, next turn is just the same. I use pet dragon astral dmg ability whenever i have 80 rage to thin ogre and orc chieftain and other melee stacks, ball of lightning also necessary. At later turn i just left 7 goblin axe thrower while resurecting losses (mainly paladin since he did most of the tanking). Most of the damage are done by black dragons and pet dragon. Goblin shaman and orc shaman never cast astral attack due to target and scrounger stupidity, yet i use +70% astral resistance items, what a waste.

Sorry, I've been rushing through my posts on key details. You are right, you said Rakush, not Scrounger. I have been looking foolish lately haha.

Funny thing is, in my game, I did NOT want those blood shaman right next to my rune mages haha.

Argh, now I remember the horror of when I was about to win in no-loss and the stupid orc chieftain came over and did his Spiritual BULLCRAP that wiped out my dragons and griffins (that popped out of the mystic egg). They dared to sneak past the "wall" to try to sabotage the enemy goblins/shaman.

I had to reload a few times and I think turn 25ish was probably about right for me too. :(

I do remember the glee in my face when I saw another 12 black dragons? (Mystic Egg rounds up the leadership rolls. woot), pop out of my mystic egg during that battle. Thank goodness Scrounger is not a Geyser freak.

Almost as good as when I saw Black Dragons show up in the Wizard's Tower last battle. Ugh, now that was a long one too. Rune Mages again saved me... in one hell of a fight.

Yeah, orc chieftain and ogre proves to be two of scrounger's most annoying stacks (besides shamans and goblin poison axe). Luckily the battle arena is not flat normal arena, so that chieftain can be blocked (at least that happens in my case).

Scrounger indeed love to kill rune mage, whenever astral attack come, it always aimed to rune mage, what a weird and annoying orc. I guess most if not all players need to reload againts scrounger.

I got an easy no loss win yet very long battle in tower last fight. I just use black dragons and few gizmos. I'm too afraid to use full army, because i can't imagine how powerful caretaker's geyser with such a very high int and insane amount of mana.

Scrounger and caretaker are easily the hardest battles of all.

Yeah, someone (maybe it was you) that taught me how to use Gizmo!

I don't remember or think Caretaker ever uses Geyser, at least he didn't use it against me.

However, I never did like the armies they gave me.

Most are waay too fragile to take care of, so a no-loss with the care taker is pretty annoying. I feel like I have no choice but to go rune mage, but after your Gizmo + Black Dragon tip, sounds like I have another way to win it.

[edit]
Ugh, now I remember why I felt so strongly about the Defense stat not affecting abilities like Dancing Axes.

17 Shaman used Dancing Axes on my Cyclops

Dancing Axes does 20-25 Magical Damage, has an Attack Rating of 23, my Cyclops has a Defense of 73.

At about 50 difference in Attack/Defense, I should have taken about 37% damage, or a 63% reduction in damage. I took 429 Damage.

17*(20-25) = 340-425 damage. Funny, since I have 3% magical resistance. So I clearly took nearly full damage (if anything, I took more).

I felt it has always been this way with Shaman in AP, because they would always hunt my beloved Trolls and kill... kill kill.

I am beginning to believe CERTAIN abilities always bypass the Defense stat, but others do not?

Or can someone explain to me why this is the case if the abilities are affected by the Defense stat?

I see your strategies and they are really cool.

I am also trying a no loss with the ogre set, with my army comprising:Warrior 53 lv
Trolls, Orc chieftain, Ogre, Shaman, Orc Hunter :)

(any idea why printscreen wont work on KB?It just copies my desktop)

Same thing happens to me. No idea why? There's probably an easy solution, so hopefully someone knows.

Hm. That is a bit odd. It might be OS dependent or are you somehow able to run King's Bounty Crossworlds in windowed mode?

You do have to go into the Saved Game Folder and look for a folder called Screenshots. You won't see it in the clipboard. (This makes me think KB:Crossworlds intercepts the keystroke and does its own magic; Windows by itself cannot see the screenshot).

This will vary per OS, and I omitted my username piece, but you'll get the idea.
My Documents\My Games\Kings Bounty Princess\screenshots

How the heck are you reviving units with that build? ;) Or are you just killing so fast that nothing survives to kill a unit? Hehe.

If you are going to go orc, I HIGHLY recommend you try the Orc Veteran out and get the Moldok hero. In fact, it sort of puts the Ogre/Orc Chieftain/Troll army to shame.

With Onslaught 3, Tactics 2, Moldok (+1 speed +1 init), USUALLY, your Orc Veterans will have at least enough to cast "Potion of Rage" (the speed ability).

You will almost always go first, and will be able to engage in the enemy in round 1 and deal Terrible Terrible Damage.

Have him use the Potion of Rage (if he needs it) so he can hit at least one guy from the other side of the screen, but before you hit him, cast Phantom. Now you should have one Orc Veteran ready to attack, and another Phantom adjacent to him to attack another unit. Now, tell your original Orc Veteran to attack.

Orc Veterans do sooo much damage in the initial hit, because they counter the counter attacks. Once, your Orc Veterans reach Adrenaline Level 3, they gain evasion AND they can hit with NO counterattack if their speed is higher than the enemy. (Almost definitely, since you will be sporting around speed 6 at this time).

Orc Trackers are surprisingly good tanks and their summons draw tons of aggro.

Orcs and Paladins synergize with the Goblins soooo well... ah. If only the game play wasn't so similar to my old ranged build... Or if you really want to keep pressing with the Orc Veterans, have Paladins Second Wind the Veterans, and Orcs "Goblin Commandeer" the Goblins.

Thank u for the screenshot folder tip. That's where all my screens were saved CDamascus :)

Not having any luck with the Orc army. I am not trying a no loss against Scoundrel. Just minimum losses, still to no avail. Sooner or later they special my level 5 units and the damage is done :mad:

I can't try the Orc veteran counter ability because I am using the ghost no retaliation set, so no counter to counter.

I tried the all goblin-2 order giving Orc units like veterans or Orcs, but the goblins couldn't deal any significant damage, compared at least to my big bangers. I prb should substitute shamans with Paladins.

http://img34.imageshack.us/img34/145...n101019001.png

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Glad it worked.

Eek, I wouldn't use the ghost retaliation set. You aren't worried about their retaliations... you are worried about their normal attacks!

For Goblins to work, you need to get around 88% critical hit rate BASE. You also need Tactics 2, Moldok, Onslaught, Quick Draw, and Frenzy. They need to survive a couple of rounds before they really start to shine (due to Zeroing in). Seems like you got all of that though.

Against Scrounger, probably not a great idea (sorry, I meant to use the goblins as a general army unit, not necessarily against Scrounger).

You should use Rune Mages, since they can revive your level 5s.

Yeah, i'd recomend rune mage too againts scrounger, in my opinion, if you plan to bring lv 5 unit againts scrounger, rune mage is a must, you'll always lose lv 5 unit, because of those double drain from double ogres (i hate them) and probably astral attack too (if you don't disable her shamans).


As for dancing axe, yeah, seems you're right, dancing axe seems to bypass defense, probably since the legend, because i have bad moments againts orc shaman in KB TL, i forgot because of what, though i think it's because of dancing axe. But not all abilities bypass defence, seems it's only for orc.

My army is Inq, R griffins, paladins, rune and arch mages, engineers and trolls. I have finally got lvl 3 ressurect so I no longer need Paladins, they don't fight too much tbh

Phantom and Dragon eggs are my preferred method, physical damage mostly, sometimes the ancient phoenix.

I'm struggling to think how the Paladin is better than Mage and Warrior tbh

Simple, Holy armor 3 and resurrection 3 (boost inquisitor and paladin resurection capabilities), also the +40% medal of inquisitor and paladin. The fastest class to get voice of dragon 3 (if you like dragons) and adrenaline 3.

Indeed most of the time paladins don't fight much, but in hardest battles, they fight much, and also they eat demons alive (boosted with 40% dmg, add inq sword if you want). And they're the only option right now for mass resurrection.

The only thing paladin envy about warrior is the ability to start with rage. Paladin has many things that compensate for the double cast of mage.

Right. It does seem all the other abilities are affected so far (I'll keep you guys posted on it, but it does seem that bypassing defense is an exception rather than the norm) I hope this wasn't some latent Porc, I mean Orc, advantage.

Thankfully with the Gift Bag items such as the Crown of Chaos, Shaman were no longer to be feared, even if they did bypass. It was fairly easy to stack close to85%+ magic resistance, or 95% even.

Who would have guessed they would replace the terror with two more units. Haha. :)

Regarding Paladin, yes, Paladins are EXCELLENT IF you use Paladin and Inquisitor. I do envy Holy Armor a lot too haha.

Yeah, it seems that with the right unit mixture, the Paladin can get around the double-cast issue. However, the Paladin seems forced into a set of units since it synergizes too well with paladins and inquisitors and you will require supplemental units to augment your disabling capabilities.

The Paladin Unit is one of those units I hate/love. They seem to be the only way for me to roll well with a Warrior class, since it is far more efficient to mass resurrect via Turn Back Time + Prayer than Phantom.

Not sure why you recommend rune mages; I left mine home for this fight. Did him with a stack of green dragons; black knight and paladin (mage impossible). Fight wasn't that hard but I did suffer the loss of green dragons (could restore the paladins/knight at end). I did not use counter attack on the knights and I suspect some other unit such as regular knights might be just as good (maybe better since I'm summing paladins at the end to restore the stack). The problem I had with rune mages is that the stack is completely wiped out on first move (strangely no matter what I chose; I could never get my initiative high enough to move before all his). I did think about trying arch mages since they tend to be astral resistant. Hum.

Rune mages can revive your level 5s. I can't bear to lose a precious level 5 unit.

I probably did double phantom with the rune mages early on (and/or I experimented with phantom + black hole) for that very reason. They can blow through my phantoms and deal damage to my real rune mages.

I don't believe any unit has natural astral resistance. The Rune mage "MIGHT" but it wouldn't be anything to write home about. The translated AP manual is wrong. It calls "magic resistance" as "astral resistance".

Not to mention, orcs tend to bypass the Defense statistics with their abilities.

To win the initiative war, I use black dragons, so the double phantoms come up before the enemy can act. I might have onslaught 1 as well. But, unless you are in "control" of the battle to prevent a black dragon loss in a single volley of hits (you aren't, since the enemy clearly overpowers us), to avoid a loss with black dragons, they MUST be paired with rune mages Or shaman (rune mages are better, since they can revive black dragons, shaman can heal a black dragon via dancing axes).

High physical resistance units is definitely a good idea though.

Yea I definitely use blackhole for this fight; To a degree I think that spell is overpowered. Hum. I'm there now; so maybe I'll back up one save and try with rune mages/black dragons. Wonder if royal snakes have a high enough initative (probably not). Hum. Kind of hate to buy blackdragons; hate em. I have 4 fights left this game (k'tul (or whatever he is called); top floor of mage tower; this fight if i redo it and 'the end' fight). K'tul is gonna be a bear; I think they beefed him up; what troupes did you use for him? Hum. If black dragons are immune to his area attack maybe he is a good candidate... though the rune mages will die fast

I think that only Infernal dragons have declared astral resistance, but it has negative value for them. So many disabilities. Poor creatures.

Infernal dragon currently is worthless, ancient phoenix is way better, like 2 times the infernal dragon with almost half mana required.

Scrounger fight is not hard to win, but it's hard to win for no loss fight.

To win initiative againts scrounger, bring black dragon (also rune mage for no loss fight, why? i guarantee you'll lose some of your black dragons) and blue dragon pet. To super win initiative, beside BD+ blue pet, you must have warrior caution 3 (+3 initiative at turn 1), enough to beat all scrounger units initiative except her ogres (only black dragon and posibly unicorn/red dragon can beat ogres initiative).

For non mage, to make your rune mage 100% survive astral attack at round 1 (even with 70% astral resistance, her goblin shamans can kill 14 rune mage with 3x astral attack), cast target to your stack. Well, you have another astral attack from orc shaman (luckily this one is much much weaker). For mage, since mage can double cast, why not target then sheep her orc shaman. You can also phantom, though it's a gamble, because it's not guaranteed that those shamans will attack the phantom.

Note that astral attack from orc shaman is much much weaker than goblin shaman, so you can ignore them, though in prolonged battle these orc shamans can make your no loss fight to become loss fight.

So I tried the black dragon and did indeed win the fight with no loss (mage impossible); however black dragon did not give me first move. Still it did keep me from being 'last move' which was enough to turn the tide. Oh well live and learn. The one thing that was a bit weird is that my warrior (impossible) really struggled on the mage tower; so i was expecting it to be near impossible for my mage (impossible) yet it was very easy.

Good point on the subtle detail that to make it a no loss battle is more difficult.

I think the +3 initiative in first round ability is Onslaught, not Caution.

Yes, Phantom is indeed a bit of a gamble, but it "usually" goes for the phantom. In some attempts, they would wipe the phantom out in round 1, and proceed to chew my rune mages for Orc Breakfast (tm). :(

Yeah, Infernal is so bad. I don't know how they designed something so poorly. It is almost like they assumed all new spells would be overpowered, so they made their requirements sky high.

The crystal requirements for all new spells are ridiculously high for what SOME of them do. (10 crystals for poison spit levl 1? really? how much is plague or poison skull?)

@saiko Oh yeah, I forgot about the "astral weakness." Sheesh. They already die in one round, now let them die in one hit. Haha.

@jake21: I'm not sure how you did not get first move. You probably don't have onslaught and/or after round one, scrounger out initiative you since you might not have the blue dragon (+1 initiative for dragons).

Black dragons lower the enemy initiative IF they are level 4 or below. That's why they are usually the weapon of choice as the Interceptor/Interdictor of most armies. :)

However, that means you are still toe to toe against level 5s who have fast initiative. Your classic mortal enemy would be the Archdemon. I wouldn't be surprised if scounger gave a +1 init to the level 5s... which means Ogres and Orc Chieftains... which means Draining fun. :(

Ah yeah, i mean onslaught, thx for the correction.

Regarding phantom, yep, most of the time they aim at the phantom, though sometimes they won't (it happen to me twice).

Yeah, some new spells are not worth the cost. Regarding poison spit, some peoples said that the -20% atk affect bosses, though i never test it. If it does indeed affect bossses, then i guess poison spit is not that bad.

Yeah, drain is overpowered now, back then in AP, the drained stack still have full ap, i mean they still can act.

Wizard tower as warrior is as easy as mage, just use black dragons (except the unit copy floor), pet dragon, and some spells (fire arrow/poison skull, fear and gizmo to heal your black dragon).

Wouldn't it be preferable to kill Scrounger very, very late in the game, IE when you have enough Intellect to simply Mass-Shackle her army? Ogres, Shamans, Goblin Shamans are all worthless without talents.

Or, bring Witch Hunters and double Phantom in the first round.

May be worth a try.

I did it at level 55 as a Mage. Maybe I could have done it as a lower level. We will see. :)

Magic Shackles is independent of intellect. It is totally dependent on your hero's leadership (which in that game, I built up aggressively). I had about 27K leadership, Magic Shackles for MAGES allows you to do 2X your leadership, so about 54K leadership.

Unfortunately, in Impossible Games, the enemy almost always out leaderships you. e.g. you can almost never Mass Magic Shackle everything as a Mage if it is one of the premier battles. There will most likely be the most deadly stack still remaining to cast its stuff.

Not to mention, it won't work on level 5s. For such a high cost of magic shackles lvl 3, you would want to lock down everyone. That's why if you were going to bother, phantom + black hole is a better option since it not only disables the level 5 ogres.... it KILLS all of them. :)

The Witch Hunter idea is good, however, Scrounger's army is quite voracious even without abilities. The Orc Chieftain stack hits hard, and so do the Orc Veterans. Orc Veterans with Adrenaline are some of the most deadly melee fighters in the game.

I suppose if you got enough other units, it might be worth using the witch hunters. Just that, the dryads in comparison, can disable ALL of the goblin shamans, and does not require consuming a spell to do so. Albeit, they will only lock down for one round, you could phantom her to do it again next round. (although her init is slow, and goblin shaman have fast init).

Well, that's odd... I thought the various "leadership" spells (Nature's Call, Demon Portal) multiply leadership per Intellect, not per your Hero's leadership. It'd make more sense that way, as a Mage needs more summons then a Warrior. But you are right, the Magic Shackles works by your hero's Leadership, I checked. (Though it's more like 1.5XLeadership).

Maybe you should check with a Mage, and not a Paladin. :)

For the Mage class it is 2X.

For Paladin class it is 1.4X

For Warrior class it is 1X.

Just imagine how imbalanced it would be if they let it be 2X or 1.4X for Warriors.

You can check the KB AP translated manual for a lot of these details and game mechanics. A lot of strange subtleties in there.

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthr...t=10787&page=6

Demon Portal Net Summoned Leadership IS a function of Intellect.

Call of Nature is ALSO a function of Intellect as well.

There is a base leadership statistic for each level of the spell, and then intellect is multiplied against it. (not directly, but in a very standard formula, 5% per intellect, etc).