Friday 2010-09-03 Dev. update and Discussions
 

Evening gentlemen.

Two part update this week. We're showing continuing improvements to our terrain, as well as the brutality of war.

EVERYTHING IS WIP and subject to change!

Awesome

will the grass move in the prop-wash?
Those trees look awesome. For the one with the 'rounder' foliage, I may suggest making the trunk smaller. It's completely anal of me to say this and I only say it because it can make a difference, but when flying over areas of wood/forest in the UK, the trunks of the trees can barely be seen and then same is true when driving. i could probably get some pictures to show this if it's of interest...? Otherwise the best looking trees I've seen in a sim. I don't even think some modern dar FPS games have trees that look that good.

Will hedges be modelled? These almost look like dense borders when flying; a bit like flying over a solid cuboid that is long and thin :P

The pilot is not wearing his helmet in the second pic; please don't tell me he puts it on...:P that would just be so (excuse my childish excitement) cool.

Part two.

Edit: a little explanation

Screen 1 - pilot dead, bombardier dying. Top and waist gunners alive.
Screen 2 - same moment from another angle
Screen 3 - another short burst kills the rest of the crew
Screens 4 & 5 - Heinkel slowly keels over

Pass the tissues vicar!

Looking very good!

Luthier thanks!

Slumped bodies and dappled sunshine, looks great if a little morbid... :)

:-P Marvellous, and brutal at the same time! I love that grass...

Great pics!

You can see a train in that first shot, cool! The hangers are lookin really good, you can see the structures and beams on the inside. Very detailed.

I love that picture of the plane on the ground. I am just picturing that grass waving in the wind and hopefully propwash!

Those trees are looking very good too! Again I'm just picturing them in my mind whirling in the wind like that one apc video we saw a while back.

Great update cannot wait to fly this!

Excellent!

The damage on the Heinkel is very impressive. I'd say the slumped-over crew gets the balance between 'realism'/gore and what is likely to be acceptable to the market about right - not that in-game you are going to see much from outside in most circumstances.

Do I see trees all the way out on the hills in the horizon on that first shot?

Getting better all the time, thank you. :grin:

This stuff is just awesome!

Thanks Luthier,

Lovely screen shots. The variety of textures/patterns in the fields is looking excellent. The grass is perhaps a little too green and I think too long in the airfield shots - but I know this is WIP.

The aircraft/crew shots look superb. Given that crew are to be modelled in various states of "aliveness", can you comment on my other thread about tracer arcs from AI gunners being affected when the gunner it killed/wounded? See, http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=16153

Thanks :grin:

PPanPan

New Pictures
 

Who is the grammar school boy sitting in the Hurricane? Seriously, does the pilot look too small for the plane?

binky9

amazing, thanks a lot.what a beautiful day to die.rip

I see what you mean! Maybe it's one of those perspective tricks, and the pilot isn't in the plane at all, but instead standing on a crate over by the hangar?!

Amazing work!! The terrain is looking better and better, cant wait to see a little video. I guess that in movement this will look 10x times better

Excellent! Thanks for the update.

Is there a chance we will see a video (with sound) any time soon? :) :P

Loverly stuff, cheers gents

I see what people mean about the pilot...he is far too small.

http://cache4.asset-cache.net/xc/266...23CE6E4BAF89B1

good looking update ! love the damage modeling on the german bomber, great detail there !

i like the look of the short grass on the airfield to (until now we have mainly seen the long grass, and wheat fields etc), also good to see how the train stands out in the scenery (as it should in real life), hopefully other ground objects like cars trucks and tanks will be similarly visible from the correct distances and altitudes now (compared to the 30% distance visibility we have for those in il2 right now)

looks like we are getting close :)

Luthier, will the trees and other objects blend into the distance better? Of course it's WIP but I was just wondering.

Maybe a seperate topic to put any questions in would be an idea?

i miss oleg is he tired from the whiners each week :grin:

Here is a good pic on how the British countryside should look, especially for the fields and trees implantantion :

http://i51.tinypic.com/ih1e3d.jpg

So, still lot of work to do to look right !


P.S: it's a Spit Mk.21, so the pic is probably around 1945-46.

RAVE...:D somehow it fits.

Thanks for the update.
Propwash would be just awsome!
Pilot does look a bit to small but Im sure Oleg and team are 100% on the spot.
The rest is promising to say the least.


Hope Oleg is better.

Viking

That real life shot shows his head must almost be brushed by the front edge of the canopy when it closes/opens. Anybody got a real life shot of a Hurricane with pilot in like the SOW shot posted today, as a matter of comparison?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...urricane03.jpg

http://cache4.asset-cache.net/xc/266...23CE6E4BAF89B1

Beautiful pictures, I am impressed, a couple of them look almost photorealistic! Keep up the good work guys.

One (constructive) critique: the trees in the first pic do not blend enough into the landscape, they stick up like candles on a birthday pie ... maybe some more blur of the 3D objects would help blending them with the 2D textures ... just my 2 c.

Cheers,
Insuber

it look better and better

His dad is just out of shot after lifting him in the cockpit :grin:

And for the right shade of green for the place, have a look here...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9ScV...layer_embedded

... at around 3.10, not much but enough to grasp how "green" should look there.

"That real life shot shows his head must almost be brushed by the front edge of the canopy when it closes/opens."

This real life pic shows also how much too small the virtual Hurricane pilot is.

One (constructive) critique: the trees in the first pic do not blend enough into the landscape, they stick up like candles on a birthday pie ... maybe some more blur of the 3D objects would help blending them with the 2D textures ... just my 2 c.

Cheers,
Insuber[/QUOTE]

+1 the trees should be better blended with landscape, in partucular trees in far background. However great work,

Bah I guess those pilots in the planes are not adjusted yet -- they may not even be of the right nationality in the right plane yet (heinkel),...but anyway, Hurricane cockpit photo here:

http://www.airplane-pictures.net/ima...3/15/11828.jpg

+1. The pics look awesome! After hundreds of sorties, I don't think I have seen an enemy aircrew but when SoW comes out I will have to take a peak lol. Those screen shot are impressive to say the least.

Something about the landscape and trees is a bit off to my eye and since I can't put my finger on it, I'm going with the comment I quoted. The trees look a little too well defined at distance maybe. But what do I know?

Thank you for the update. I would love to see video or maybe hear about the development progress but I'm thinking those are super double secret right now.

Splitter

This shows the size of the pilot pretty well.

http://vintagewings.ca/rsrc/vwc/img/news_10242007_3.jpg

PPanPan

The Blenheim is about 500 ft high in a computer sim, the Spit is about 3000ft at a guess, in an old photo with the background misty and out of focus.
Comparing the two looks spot on to me.

As to pilot size, the Hurri is big for a fighter and maybe that bloke was only 5' 2''! Mind you, he doesn't look the quoted 175cm. Not that I'm complaining, we won't really see 'em too much.

Looking superb.

I think the landscape will only look 'odd' because the Planes and objects are almost photo-realistic.

On the first pic, it looks like the country road is about 7 or 8 times larger than the locomotive !!! Strange.
Frankly, the screen is good, but I don't understand how you can find it "awesome", when the trees are not ok, the colors not right and the texture resolution not there ? A good WIP, ok, good but still very WIP.

The Blenheim is about 500 ft high in a computer sim, the Spit is about 3000ft at a guess, in an old photo with the background misty and out of focus.
Comparing the two looks spot on to me.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

On "Flight" archives pics site, you have plenty of period pics, taken at low altitude over this part of Britain showing quite well that this screen is still..... very WIP and far from being "spot on".

The pilot in the first Hurricane screenshot is not wearing a flight helmet which makes him appear smaller.

Great update!

Love the shot of the Hurricane in front of the hangars. Is it my imagination or is the lettering and roundels on the hurri sharper than earlier updates? The white bird 'logo' on the Heinkel is quite blurry in contrast.

Damage effects are looking great too esp the torn, deformed skin of the Heinkel. Flak hit?

BTW I'm not impressed that the midget pilot's hair isn't blowing in the prop wash :P

One contributing factor is that the distant trees aren't casting shadows.

They weren't called "the Brylcreem boys" for nothing ;)

Well I suppose it depends on the level of your expectations.
I'd be more than happy if the final product looked like this.
If every aspect of the sim was 'photo-realistic', I doubt many people would ever see it due to hardware restrictions.
Just my opinion.

Am curious to know how/why this particular Hurricane (the one with the small pilot) was chosen. The real Hurricane s/n L1833 came to a sad end on 3 October 1940 when it collided with another Hurricane on a training flight. Both pilots were killed. See, http://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=16274

The detail in design, right down to historically accurate serial nos. is impressive.

PPanPan

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqIsQQFSUic

video :)

Good luck trying to aim being that high in the cockpit. See the gunsight?

The pilot in the photo is sitting up. He's not strapped in.

Our pilot has his eyes aligned with the gunsight.

Very nice update here... those gorgeous looking trees, grass, well actually everything looks real fine and it's only getting better.:grin:

THX a lot

Thank s for the update.
I think that the pilots are a bit to small, but i know this is WiP.

S!

Thanks for the update. Nice things to be seen there.

One of the differences between this shot and the screen shots is that the screen shot is taken is perfectly clear atmosphere, the photo has quite a lot of haze. Also the depth of field in the photograph, tend s to blur distant objects, theat isn't shown in the screenshot!

Cheers!

So this is what you guys are asking for?

I'll ship it that way you know. Try and stop me.

AFAIK - didn't pilots drop their seats when in combat? I think I remember a reference to this in First Light by Geoff Wellum....this could account for the low appearance of the Hurricane pilot. Still, matters not the shots get me wet with anticipation anyway!

"One of the differences between this shot and the screen shots is that the screen shot is taken is perfectly clear atmosphere, the photo has quite a lot of haze. Also the depth of field in the photograph, tend s to blur distant objects, theat isn't shown in the screenshot!"


Except that the haze doesn't change the way the fields are drawn or the trees are placed. Frankly :rolleyes:

Lovely additional shot Luthier - point taken on pilot height too! I particularly love how the sea and sky blend into a non existent horizon. Very, very realistic and something we'll have to watch out for.

Thanks for the update

PPanPan

Don't release it too soon, I'm still saving up for a new computer! ;)

cheers!

How many hours of discussion take the FW point of aim? too high... too low... Now you have a perfect aligned eyes on the crosshair and still whining?

That makes a lot of sense!

:D

Why you guys always have to use techno?


BTT: Great pics, thanks.

Yes but only the copies sold to the people complaining :D I'm keeping the list.

ahahaha game, set, match.

ROFL, that reminds me of my Dad. "Don't make me stop this car!". Awesome post!

BTW, I wouldn't put much stock in photos taken of aircraft in the foreground and scenery in the background. If the plane is in focus, the background will not be. The screenies posted actually show the power of the software and making distant objects less distinct would seem to be easy when the time comes (but I am not a programmer).

Splitter

I thought I recognised that pilot!

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4109/...2d5b3b16_z.jpg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IolXtL5piIM

Actually simulating shallow depth of field in software is computationally very expensive. Combine the infinite DOF with low detail in distant models and you get the effect we're seeing. Some games cheat by adding a lot of fog which has a blending effect but I'd rather have the great visibility shown in these pics than flying in pea soup with limited vis.

Thank you.

Hahah :D

No, but seriously, his position looks correct (I can see what you mean) but his size looks off...Maybe it's the angle? I'm not sure.

How about this:

http://www.adamsplanes.com/images/Tu...in_cockpit.jpg
I would imagine the seat is lowered and the pilot leans forward in combat. I doubt the pilot would be lowered down for take-off, Luthier, so maybe a small change may be needed? It's no biggy for me though.

Who'd have thought that the relative size of the pilot figure could be so controversial??

I have a more serious question. That Blenheim in the first pic, evidently flying over Britain because that's a British train in the background - so why are the bomb-bay doors open? :-P :-P :-P

It's not the trees, it's the lack of hedges
 

Some have wondered what is odd about the scenery but couldn't put their finger on it - it's the lack of hedges.

English field boundaries, roads and rail lines are nearly always delimited by hedges, unless you are flying over limestone or upland regions.

Yes, I know, this is WIP. I'm not complaining, just pointing out. It's still brilliant work.

I wonder if it's something to do with how the hurricane pilot (screenshot) is modeled or scaled. Maybe his head's too small :) That could happen if the model originally was say 6' tall and was shrunk uniformly to his new height of 5'6". I can't find any pics from the same angle looking down slightly so it's hard to compare. Doesn't bother me too much. Just seems a bit off.

I have no idea how tall the pilots in the following pics are or whether they are sitting on cushions. Personally, if I didn't have to look through the gunsight to shoot other planes, I'd rather be sitting higher in a taildragger for better visibility especially on the ground. Perhaps thats why the pilots in non war pics appear to be sitting higher in the cockpit.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...urricane03.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...e_IV_KZ321.jpg

Maybe the Hurricane pilot looks short because he's not modeled sitting on his parachute pack yet. Making things blend in at a distance should not be that hard I think. Less individual detail at a distance should be easier on the computer. The dammage modeling on the 111 is looking great and although the plane is being shot from underneath their behinds, the crew snoozes on;)
Not too violent but gunners and crew are clearly incapcitated enough that you can base you next move on it. Close in and set the thing on fire or go on to the next target. Stil a WIP but I'm enjoying the showings more and more.

+1

i said this a while ago. But don't fret! I think this could still appear in the sim ;)

http://www.churchtimes.co.uk/uploads...P22%231%23.jpg

too green for summer, but a good example IMHO.

And per the pilot discussion: +1 Dozer :D Luthier; whatever you do, we'll still be happy. But the thought of the pilots seat-position that I raised does make me want to ask whether we'll be able to change the seat position that way...

The trees are perfect !!! The grass looks OK but it should be affected by the propeller’s wash and the transition between the close view where grass is visible and the distance view where the grass is no more visible is too rough.

The ground on which the second hurri is standing where the grass is no longer visible seems to be as flat as my ex. And the shape of the grass should be visible on the bottom of the hangar, something like this maybe (I’m not a photoshop pro):

http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/2580/45742872.jpg



And the ‘brutality of war’ would be more realistic like this:

http://img828.imageshack.us/img828/2997/82699757.jpg

Well, if we look closely at the screenshot , we see that the "terrain" is blurred and seems to lack definition, like roads edges and so. The trees, the train and other objects are very defined...So the contrast between those two "levels" of images give the impression that the terrain is a bit out of focus , while the objects are not...And it is more obvious with distant trees...:cool:
So it looks imcompatible...for the moment...WIP...We know...:rolleyes:

But nice work !

Now that is interesting, I hadn't thought of those scenes even though I have seen the movie dozens of times (John Wayne fan). My pure guess would be that they used a real P-40 for those cheesy looking close ups, sitting in a studio of course. It would just be a financial decision.

John Wayne was something like 6'-4" which would be VERY tall for a pilot of the era. One would think he would be sitting up much higher. Maybe they modified the seat to make it sit lower? I know they tended to put him on smaller horses to make him look even taller lol. It's not like they were above altering reality :).

Personally....I could not care less about the size of the pilots lol. That' just me, I know others feel much more strongly on the matter.

Splitter

Well, I know that spits had rubbish visibilty for take-off, and I think the Hurribus did too. The pilots here are probably sitting up to get a better view, but I'd imagine they'd remain that way as they won't be using the gunsight. In combat, I know that the pilot would probably lower his seat; both for a better gunsight view and also for safety :)

Yep; I have read this mentioned in near on every account on the BoB or any part of the air-war in WW2 for that matter ;)

Cm'on, now he's standing up in the cockpit :mrgreen:
As previously said, the pilot looks too small rather than too low.
But most of the pics posted make me think the pilots will bang their heads on the canopy whenever negative Gs are involved :o

As for the rest, it's looking good, hopefully quality will not kill FPS... ^^

Luthier will have his revenge....

excellent update, lovely to see it coming along like it is. the reflections from the blenheims nose are spectacular.

oh but of course. after 7-8 years of reading il2 forums i would expect no less. our trolls>>>>>> any other internet trolls.

armchair game developers must be worse than armchair generals.

the patience of oleg, luthier and co is saintly. lesser men would've stopped interacting with the community long ago.

well... how can you say it would be more realistic? that looks more hollywood tbh.

i'm guessing to get blood splatter like that you'd be talking either arterial spray or explosive shells removing both tissue and clothing. don't forget pilots wore a lot of clothing and, at least in bob, were usually subject to death by rifle calibre bullets. combine these two factors and bleeding out would be limited to soaking pilot suits, not decorating the inside of the plane like someone has been overly enthusiastic with the ketchup bottle. unless you it's a very specific bullet strike area then there wouldn't be large amounts of blood splatter. and certainly not in such patterns as you've added.

Amazing.

BRING IT!

WoW!!!!!

Excelent

yeah and if the sim looked like that, it would be rated 18+ in most European countries, that would mean a lot of die hard tots that are here and living in Europe would not get the game! ;) Maybe think before asking for Hollywood, although thinking of Hollywoods version of "Pearlharbour" I think I have to look for a paper bag.

I don't want gore...but Il-2 did have a gore setting which, in many ways, was quite bloody.

Yes the Hurri pilot is too small...but the He111 crew look ok for size ?!

It's my birthday today ( don't all cheer at once..!) I was hoping Oleg would give me a SoW video as a birthday treat!

I only use the HUD view in IL2 so not worried about Luther's threat!!!

Cheers

Simon

aka Stiboo

This makes things clearer:

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23.../Naamloos5.png

Maybe it's just a small guy like Master Yoda :)

http://www.collectorsquest.com/blog/...boypilot11.jpg

Fantastic screenies, the progress that has been made in such a short time is nothing less than phenomenal. It just goes to show you how much effect taking your time and laying a good foundation has later on in the project.

Ground crew and seat height
 

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...Hurri_head.jpg

Clearly the guy in the cockpit is sat very high - the canopy would chop the top of his head off if closed!. So maybe as mentioned in prevoius posts it was adjustable for taxing, especially. Size of his (uncovered) head relative to cockpit/canopy can be gauged here as well though.

I hate to be repetitive.

I think the terrain would look excellent if the blueish veil caused by our atmosphere was implemented and visually prominent. This haziness would detract the small imperfections of distant textures. Refer to the photograph. Hell, Look across a field. It's there.

People tended to be a little smaller in those days, the average height of a man being 5' 8".
John Wayne towers above those people in any case.

Some people's propensity on this forum to bitch and moan about anything never ceases to amaze me. :rolleyes:

I agree. We are much to influenced by the ketchup scene in the "Battle of Britain" movie.

Later in the war 30mm explosive shells might do a lot more damage to a human body, but the colour would be different and most of the displaced remains would likely be on other places than the windshield.

We should all be really impressed by the gunner moving around btw.

It might already be implemented as in IL2 you can also opt to set weather to hazy and beyond which generates the same effect as you show in the photograph. I guess SOW will have similar options if not better, I guess

I'm fairly sure that both Spitfires and Hurricanes had a lever on the right side of the cockpit next to the seat which was used to adjust its height in flight. I'm tempted to suggest this is added to the sim, for realism (assuming it hasn't been done already). On the other hand, I'll be happy to do without, if we get to see SoW:BoB sooner. :grin:

There are a lot of details lacking in the Blenheim picture.

There are "level crossings" on all current railroad crossings of roads in Britain, and I think there were back then too, though more often there were bridges taking the railways across the roads (often with a dip or cutting in the roads to take them under the railway, sometimes with an embankment to take the railway above the level of the road).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Level_crossing

The railway is now usually fenced off from fields, in the old days of the 1940s that would have been hedges, but almost nobody grows/lays hedges now, it's a dying folk craft, but in WW2 it would have been the main way of keeping one farmer's livestock out of another farmer's field, in a capitalist system, that matters.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedge_laying

I do hope this helps, I was really quite shocked to see this. Most of the time, where unused old railway lines crossed roads there were bridges, now sometimes taken down, sometimes where it was the road that went up over the railway, still in use even though there is no railway under them.

Thanks Luthier, looking great.:grin:

Love the peeled back skin on the bomber. The crew look very incapacitated...very well done....no need for blood at all.

The leaves on the trees look great too.

The hurri pilot's head does look a bit on the small side but it may just be the lack of the helmet. I do think a lot of the real pictures we see feature a raised seat for taxying purposes. Your point regarding the gun sight was very well put I thought.

I hate to say this but I think the country roads are way too wide (when compared to the train carriage). You're hard pushed to fit two modern UK spec. cars side by side on many UK country lanes. I guess that would make a road of about 16-18ft wide. The main line rail carriages of the day were 60-70ft long and the carriage appears to easily fit within the width of the road. No biggie though.

Cheers

this is my nephew at a farmers shed in saskatchewan ,canada. this hurricane is fully operational and the farmer flew it himself 3 times before parking it .
my nephew is 6 feet tall.he has no idea what model this is but I told him about this debate and he mentioned that he is not sitting on a parachute which I believe the pilots would be, thus the difference of clearance of the head.

the farmer has since sold the plane

Can't beat that. :)