Rolling in a Bf 110
 

That Fw 190 topic was so brilliant (I loved the advice, thanks guys) that I named my topic along the same name. :) Now let's see if anyone knows anything about how to fly the Bf 110, my favourite.



I have only found A SINGLE GUIDE on how to fly it - the WWII online wiki article. Nothing else. Here it is (and it is not bad, but there should be more out there): http://wiki.wwiionline.com/index.php/Bf110 Surely we have better information available so many years later. Aces here have more flight time and experience than any real WW2 pilot had, and the benefit of all the experience preserved from the WW2 pilots.

I imagine that P-38 flying tactics can be applied to the Bf 110 to some extent so feel free to share that if you know anything about how to fly the P-38. The planes are not that dissimilar. The 110 is a bit less agile while having a rear pair of eyes and a rear firing gun position. Climbs worse too and all that. But still.

To cover situations I commonly experience. What to do when...

1. Having lots of altitude above enemy fighter. How to bounce? Both if already detected and if not detected.

2. Coming near enemy fighter at comparable altitudes. Both with altitude and near the deck. And both when spotted and when not yet detected (the fighter highly likely to engage in dogfight due to superior maneuverability).

3. When about to be bounced by fighter. At altitude and when near the deck (especially if it keeps up the energy tactics).

4. When finding a fighter on one's six at comparable energy states, both at altitude and on the deck (under no circumstances do I want to hear anything about switching to gunner position and using the mouse).

5. Bomber without escort, catching up with it.

6. General air combat maneuvers that work and don't work in the Bf 110's. Yo-yo's are obviously one that work, and possibly long range shooting going head on since having much more system redudancy, heavier weapons and no convergence problems. Snap rolls? Barrel rolls? Slips with tons of flaps forcing a quick overshoot (like Stukas during BoB)? Hammerhead types?

7. Opinions on the regular loadout version (2xMG FF/M or 151s with 4xMg17). Are the Mg-17's useful at all? They have lots of ammo and they are always converged.

8. BordKanone 3.7 (Can shoot down bombers at 2km almost though aiming is difficult if much more than 1km. I brought this into combat before and shot at tempests busy chasing someone or running away, and they rarely seemed to notice the single light grey streaks coming past them. I guess they all expect the blue tracers of the 151 cannons. It especially seems like a fun proposal to try to gun down people running away on the deck, since it shoots super accurately and far with little drop, and a single hit is all it takes).

9. 2xMk.108 nose cannons instead of 4xMg17's. I think my two kills (one was a Thunderbolt near the deck and I was follpowing on it's six through some wild maneuvers. The other I think was a spitfire that turned in front of me) were done with the Mk.108's. How badly do they affect maneuvering? They don't weigh that much. They have some drop but they actually have higher velocity, and overtake, the 151's after a few hundred meters because the shells are so heavy they don't slow down as much from the air resistance).

10. MG 151 gunpods.

11. Offline I can do snap rolls often in the 110, but online it almost never works. Have ping of 140-180. Any knowledge on this issue? I am fairly skilled with snap rolling in aircraft and it is amazingly useful against the more sluggish spit/tempest type planes.

Help me Obi-Wan Kenobi. You are my only hope.

Pray and runaway - usually works for me.

Hello MikkOwl. I know a little bit about the 110 so I will try to help you with what I can answer.

First to all, you have to be totally aware that the 110 is not the P-38. Nothing is similar to it especially with how the 110 is modeled to the P38 in this game. I will try to differentiate them point by point.

1- General Flying characteristics :

- Speed : 110 is slower at all altitudes. It retains energy far worse and it can dive less quickly.
i. VnE 110 is 700 kph. This reduce its efficiency in BnZ but you can still do things with that.
ii. Cruise speed is slow. Max IAS speed is 490 kph on the deck.
iii. Stall speed is pretty slow : about 150 kph with all out. You can indeed use it in combat to let the bad guy overshoot.
iv. Climbs worse than P38
v. Dive worse than P38.

- Manoeuvrability : Decent in turns actually. If you know how to handle it you can follow P-47s and P-51s easily in turns. You can follow a 38 and even slightly a Tempest. Forget about the Spit, of course, except if you are nearly out of fuel and he has 100% fuel J.
P38 manoeuvres generally as good with equivalent speed.
On one engine, the 38 has definitely the edge. 110 on one engine will fly at 220 – 240 Kph. P38 can run at 350 and even take altitude…

- Endurance : The 110 can carry a lot of fuel but of course, the more fuel the less manoeuvrability. 50% gives you roughly one hour of flight running at 105% with rads on auto, so in close dogfight servers like WC, even 25% is enough. It’s just a bit of management to do.

2- Weapons and protection

- Armor : The 110 is a real tough bird, especially compared to the 38. It can take a lot of punishment and still go back to base (personnal experience is going in that direction). 20 mm of the Tempest is the biggest threat, otherwise it can take a dozen of not converged 20 mm guns and loads of .50 cal. Good point for the bird, the control cables are the best protected in the game. You’ll nearly never get them cut due to enemy fire, which allow you to bring back heavily damaged planes. Weak spot of the 110 compared to the 38 : engine fire. When a 38 engine catches fire, the 38 can fly forever. When a 110 engine catches fire, you have to try to extinguish it the fastest possible, or the fuel tank will leak, then burn and finally explode (usually short after the fuel reaches the empty level).

- Armament: the 110’s strong point compared to the 38. Take always the twin 30mm guns, forget about the 2x20mm gunpod. If you can’t hit with 4 guns, 6 wont help, and the gunpod decreases the top speed and manoeuvrability of the 110 in a way you can’t allow in a competitive server.

- Rear gunner : another edge over the P38. Don’t dream, if an enemy is in your six, he’ll outmanoeuvre you in 80% of the cases. The rear gunner is then a precious ally even if you usually have to do the gunning yourself because it aims so bad even in straight lines. Aim at engine of liquid cooled fighters so they start burning or at the cockpit of air cooled engine fighters and pray for a PK. Rear gunner is also very good to improve your SA, not every fighter has the luxury to have 2 pair of eyes.

Ok, now I will try to answer more completely about your other questions.




110 is not a lonewolf’s plane. While in the 38 you always have a good luck to escape after a missed BnZ, 110 has not this chance. It bleeds E like mad as soon as you touch the stick, it has drag caused when you compensate for the couple created by the not contrarotative engines, etc… You are basically slow. The 110 is very powerfull flown with 1 wingman at least (another 110 is good too). Best I’ve seen was 5 110 vs 2 Spits, 2 51 and 1 Tempest meeting at 5000m. The 110s got all the enemy fighters vs 1 damaged and 1 lost (crew bailed). This was done on Warclouds a few years ago already. This was achieved because of :
- good team work
- good SA
- excellent firepower
- Teamspeak

The tactic is vital ! If you can pair with other types of wingmen, this is good too.

- When you have a lot of altitude : bounce with wingman, because 110 at max speed can’t correct its path very easily. If one miss the other wont. To bounce is easy when you know how fast and how your rounds will travel. Deflection shooting is easy because of very good forward visibility (best of the german fighters actually), but the easiest remains from 6 o clock (no corrections to do). If you are not detected it will be easy. If you are detected do it quickly because enemy fighters tend to close the gap in altitude very quickly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikkOwl (Post 144357) 2. Coming near enemy fighter at comparable altitudes. Both with altitude and near the deck. And both when spotted and when not yet detected (the fighter highly likely to engage in dogfight due to superior maneuverability). [/B]

Head on if possible. Superior firepower, long range 20mm canons, perfect convergence, weaker enemy armament and good armor protection gives you the maximal chances to survive. If the enemy breaks, try deflection shooting. Don’t hesitate to spend your ammo, you have a lot of it. If you miss, don’t engage 1v1, you’ll lose. Call for help and run in the direction of your friends.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikkOwl (Post 144357) 3. When about to be bounced by fighter. At altitude and when near the deck (especially if it keeps up the energy tactics). [/B]

Try head on if possible then/or run and call for help. Break hard, make it hard for the opponent to touch you, Split S, etc. Then : Team tactic, as usual.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikkOwl (Post 144357) 4. When finding a fighter on one's six at comparable energy states, both at altitude and on the deck (under no circumstances do I want to hear anything about switching to gunner position and using the mouse). [/B]

If he’s far enough, 180 degree turn and go for head on. It’s your only chance. If he’s too close, try to make him overshoot or switch to rear gunner position and fire. Call for help and pray that Messerschmitt’s armor plates will hold long enough.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikkOwl (Post 144357) 5. Bomber without escort, catching up with it. [/B]

Given the fact that .50 cals can fire at miles, don’t engage from 6. Be patient, catch with it then start making side passes, boucings or even head-on passes at it. Mk108s will do the rest.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikkOwl (Post 144357) 6. General air combat maneuvers that work and don't work in the Bf 110's. Yo-yo's are obviously one that work, and possibly long range shooting going head on since having much more system redudancy, heavier weapons and no convergence problems. Snap rolls? Barrel rolls? Slips with tons of flaps forcing a quick overshoot (like Stukas during BoB)? Hammerhead types? [/B]

All this might work under certain circumstances. Experience only will help you. But don’t get excited, this will only give you time to escape. You have to defeat your opponent the fastest possible. If you miss your chances and start maneuvering, then the probability that your opponent will outmanoeuvre you are high.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikkOwl (Post 144357) 7. Opinions on the regular loadout version (2xMG FF/M or 151s with 4xMg17). Are the Mg-17's useful at all? They have lots of ammo and they are always converged. [/B]

Forget the MG17s. Always take 108s. It’s good for everything.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikkOwl (Post 144357) 8. BordKanone 3.7 (Can shoot down bombers at 2km almost though aiming is difficult if much more than 1km. I brought this into combat before and shot at tempests busy chasing someone or running away, and they rarely seemed to notice the single light grey streaks coming past them. I guess they all expect the blue tracers of the 151 cannons. It especially seems like a fun proposal to try to gun down people running away on the deck, since it shoots super accurately and far with little drop, and a single hit is all it takes). [/B]

Well, the Bk deteriorates the flying characteristics of the 110 in a dramatic way. You better forget this weapon, 108s will do better, you have a higher rate of fire and 1 hit will usually get a fighter down (except the 47 who can absord between a dozen to 35 108s before going down, from personnal experience).

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikkOwl (Post 144357) 9. 2xMk.108 nose cannons instead of 4xMg17's. I think my two kills (one was a Thunderbolt near the deck and I was follpowing on it's six through some wild maneuvers. The other I think was a spitfire that turned in front of me) were done with the Mk.108's. How badly do they affect maneuvering? They don't weigh that much. They have some drop but they actually have higher velocity, and overtake, the 151's after a few hundred meters because the shells are so heavy they don't slow down as much from the air resistance). [/B]

They wont affect the general handling characteristics badly. It’s the best loadout in A to A and A to G with the 110.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikkOwl (Post 144357) 10. MG 151 gunpods. [/B]

Useful at the beginning for the extra confidence it gives you (more firepower), but useless in the long run. You can do the same job with 2x20 and 2x30 mm and more efficiently because the plane will handle better.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikkOwl (Post 144357) 11. Offline I can do snap rolls often in the 110, but online it almost never works. Have ping of 140-180. Any knowledge on this issue? I am fairly skilled with snap rolling in aircraft and it is amazingly useful against the more sluggish spit/tempest type planes.

The more sluggish is you in any offline server you will be. Snap roll are good ideas, but the best is still to split S. Full rudder, full ailerons but not full elevator or stall. It’s also easier to start rolling in the direction where the torque pushes you.

My 2 cents, just find protection. If you want to pair with me, I fly mostly on the Warclouds server at europeean evening times.

S.

Oktoberfest

Oktoberfest, I have not read everything yet (obviously) but I want to give you a big thank you already, and telling you that this is my Dicta Boelcke :D

I posted the same topic on the UBI forums (where a heated discussion is going on, interesting) and someone early on said this: "You might want to ask a guy named Oktoberfest about flying the 110 at the WarClouds forums; afaik he has no trouble dealing with P51s, Tempests or late Spits. :grin:". I said I flew only on war clouds and that I had an account there, and would try to ask you. And look here, already :)

For anyone wishing to see how that discussion is going, have a look: http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/t...3/m/9291013338

Will link to Oktoberfest's marvelous feedback from over there in a second.

EDIT: Added in some data I was collecting for better understanding of the difference in Mk 108 package vs Mg 17 package:

Some data collected on the different gun packages. The 151/20 listed are the default lower-nose installation, and not the gun-pod. Included for comparison.

MG 151/20 x 2
650 rounds total
24 rounds per second
Total weight (not including attachment assembly/feed stuff/links) = 204.4kg of which 119kg is ammunition (and how much ligher one will be when no more ammo).
Combined fire power (damage it can inflict per second): 384
For how long: 27 seconds
Total carried fire power: 10 368

Mg17 x 4
4027 rounds total
80 rounds per second
Total weight: 141.5kg, of which 100.7kg ammunition.
Combined fire power: 80
For how long: 50.3 seconds
Total carried fire power: 4027

Mk 108 x 2
270 rounds total
21 rounds per second
Total weight: 245.6kg, of which 129.6 is ammunition.
Total fire power: 1160
For how long: 12.9 seconds
Total carried fire power: 14 964

Mk 108 instead of Mg 17 option adds 104.1 extra kilo, 73.6% heavier (about the same weight as all the ammo for the Mg 17's), but when the ammo is out (and it happens fairly fast) it weighs 116kg, 25kg less than the fully loaded Mg 17 load out, or probably about the same with the same amount of shooting.

And here i was about to tell you "maybe Oktoberfest will see this and chime in, he'll be all or most of the advice you'll ever need" :grin:

I don't regularly fly online, but when i do i prefer full switch servers and in these cases you come across some very knowledgeable folk. I still remember you dogfighting spitfires in a 110 at 8km and winning Oktoberfest, despite the inferior aircraft and the "grenade laucher" ballistics of the Mk108 shells :-P

In fact, if there was one piece of advice i could give you from flying the 190 that could be also applicable to the 110, is that you shouldn't scoff at the Mg151s. Set your convergence to 700m and try out some long range shots, once you get familiar with it and the amount of leading the target required, you'll be able to score hits at ranges almost nobody expects you to. Couple this with the fact that a small control/course deviation of your aircraft will translate to a bigger course deviation for your bullets and it's obvious that if you can shoot from longer ranges you don't need to maneuver that hard.

This is a serious advantage when you have a slower plane but also have more guns and close to half a minute of ammunition. Especially so if you consider Oktoberfest's advice that you have to get the kill as early as possible and even use head-on attacks to prevent the engagement from dragging on.

Setting a long convergence on the M151s you could easily score crippling damage way before the other guy is in range. Then, if he's still coming at you you can let loose with the 108s. Or he might dive out of the fight and give you a chance to follow, or break to the side in which case you can kick some rudder and start spraying in front of him, etc.

The important thing is not so much how it plays out, but the fact that (with the notable exception of the P47) most or all of the high-altitude allied fighters can be put out of action on a head on attack by a single 20mm hit, due to their liquid cooled engines. If you can shoot further out with the 20s, it means you either got the kill outright or that even in the worst case scenario the other guy has suffered some kind of damage and is on the defensive. It's like two knights jousting, the guy with the longer spear will win 9 times out of 10.

Mind you, i'm not saying the 108s are not good, all i'm saying is that if you play around with the convergence settings you could have a long range option and a short range option.
Essentially, i use the Mg151s as "assault rifles" and the Mk108s as "close range shotguns" against the big guys ;)

On the Fw 190, the closest pair are in the wing roots, maybe 3 meters apart, while the outer pair are even much further. On the Bf 110, maybe 40-70cm between all of them. I set the convergence to maximum, 1000 meters. The inaccuracy in the shells themselves are bigger than the distance between the barrel, and having convergence makes them cross each other's path outwards, the same disadvantage that wing cannons get (but less extreme). I am sure that in reality they used no convergence at all, since it was so close, and it was about cannon shells anyway.

The longer the range, the more effective the larger caliber shells are. The problem is of course, hitting anything. The 108 shells have low initial muzzle velocity, but their massive weight makes them overtake the 151/20's (which slow down faster from air resistance) after a few hundred meters, albeit with more projectile drop.

I love the nose mounted weaponry, and I love even more not having a propeller to have to sync-shoot through! :)

Firing both 151 and 108's at the same time seems to give no problem with stability of the plane, and their different paths (elevation wise) and large ammo supply increases the chance of a (brutal) hit. The technique I am working on in general to hit a plane of imprecise range and speed, when in 6 o-clock true chase behind him (he running away) is to walk the fire upwards. A 20 or a 30 is bound to come down on his plane if he's flying straight. They certainly have the speed advantage in later war scenarios, but having this firepower makes it possible to have a big shell catch up with them real fast before they get out of range :)

Absolutely though, the 151's are potent weapons. But the 30's are even much more potent, and they get to the target as fast as the 151's if there's a few hundred meters involved. I'm going to try to learn how to shoot both of them at any ranges.

Hello MikkOwl,

the good thing with mixing 20mm with 30mm rounds when you fire is that the paths of the shells are different, which means that you can spray on a wider area. It depends of course of the form and of the distance of the engagement, but I often fire with all cannons together.

I've made a track for you so you can see roughly how I fly. You'll see that TEAMWORK is essential ! And I was always on comms with Reich.

Thank you very much. Downloaded already. Will watch later today. :) Printed your big nice reply with all those answers too, and will keep it around at all times when flying the 110 for quick access.

Currently busy working on that Multi-Throttle program (version 4.0, I really want to get it together and released already). Makes flying the 110 all the more fun with the split throttles and, in version 4.0, individual prop pitch too. Intend to learn how to fly the G2 with manual prop pitch and follow more realistic procedures and settings. It really sets the blade angle too, not the desired RPM of each engine so overrev happens easily if diving and not adjusting. As far as I know the C-2 and C-4 models did not have automatic pitch, and that's what we should be getting for Storm of War. Might as well have the habit already.

I agree on everything you say guys. The problem for me is not the range or speed of the 108s but the drop, especially if high pitch values and G loads become a factor.

I can hit targets that are slower than me just fine, especially if they are something big (like a bomber that i happen to approach from the sides, heck you can knock the rudders off of B17s even if you happen to shoot higher and miss the fuselage). However, in that case it's not only that the enemy target is moving in a predictable way, it's also that my airframe is on a more or less stable run.
I usually make a curved approach, turning into them from their 2/10 o'clock, so as i get closer i shoot and exit to their 5/7 o'clock. The thing is, before firing i quickly roll level with the plane defined by the target's wings. In all of this, at the moment of firing i have a stable airframe flying almost straight and level and pulling almost no Gs, so i can score good hits. It might be just a split second, but it definitely is there.

However if i take a fighter/heavy fighter with 108s against another fighter, i don't only have to track a wildly maneuvering target with a limited ammo supply, but my airframe is also unstable as a result of following him.

That doesn't mean the 108 is crap, it means that i'm crap with the 108s against small targets :lol:
It's why i always fly 190s even when i want to go high, where a 109K4 would probably make more sense.

The comparison and differences you pionted out were very informative and educational. :) I was aware of there being major differences, but I was thinking of the P-38 as in used against Zeros, not quite the War Clouds type situation. A maybe not entirely different situation to how the Bf 110 C models were like during the Battle of Britain (Mainly slower Hurricanes everywhere that turn much better but much slower and worse armament). I thought, and still think, that cross tactics could be useful (not least in the terms of twin engines and if there's any maneuvers possible with them apart from getting out of spins and to help out the rudder at very slow speed vertical maneuvering).

I finally found out the difference in instantaneous and sustained turn rate. This is important as the 110 seems to have pretty good instantaneous turn.

"Instantaneous turn rate describes maximum g turns which cause a loss in energy, either in the form of speed or altitude. This loss may be compensated for, to a degree, by increasing thrust, known as "excess specific power." This usually occurs during hard turns or even harder breaks. Only by turning the aircraft at its best "sustained turn rate" can the aircraft maintain its specific energy."

In general, it seems that it is possible to very quickly change the attitude (pitch) of the plane at any time (changing foremost angle of attack), which seems very useful for bringing guns on someone. But also if the 110 starts turning pretty fast, this should be exploited too. The one thing that it really can't do well, like you have pointed to, is sustained maneuvering. It will just slooooow down when pushed hard. Emphasising the 'burn' in "Turn n' Burn". :) The Fw 190 does good instantaneous turns (and of course amazing rolling) and in that thing, doing several shorter hard maneuvers (or jinks we can say) is useful for throwing off someone's pursuit and aim. Limited in the 110, but at least it's something. Also, nosing down hard, with or without some turning involved, must surely be something since it does perform it initially very quickly, while slowing down in the process (and takes a while to red out).

Not full elevator in what part of the Split S? When already inverted?

What is the reasoning for Split-S in particular? That it loses speed fast and has decent turn radius (which is fine for Split-S where you don't want to hit the ground)? If so, maybe the opponent follows it up with a Shit-S (Split-S gone wrong, flight into ground)... It rolls on the slow side, but not that bad I think, with rudder and other things thrown in, as long as there's speed. To add to it - isn't the ideal maneuver to add to the Split-S specifically a snap-roll? Just quickly flip 180 and pull back hard. Faster than trying to roll conventionally.

I read that the 110 lacked some armor from the front due to the nose having no engine to absorb bullets. Of course this means messing up the instrument panel and pilot rather than getting the engine damaged, if such hits could occur. But this was comments from some IL-2 forum and not about the real 110 as far as I know, thus it could be inaccurate. Maybe it had decent armor in the nose? Not to mention the surface is angled for deflection of projectiles as well as there being plenty of weapon systems with their mounting points to absorb damage.

Also, the question of survivability: the 110 seems a lot larger than the average fighter (not to mention small ones). It may absorb more damage, but I wonder if there's much difference as it will get hit more due to size.

My own experience does suggest it can get shot up a lot. I have a tendency to lose my Revi Gunsight more than other planes if anything. The glass-house cockpit is a bit bothersome, but probably no different from any other fighter. The 110 is a hell of a lot tougher than the P-38 for sure. 38 always gets catastrophic failiure instantly, very different. Being so large makes it hit more too.

I cannot use the mouse and the stick at the same time, so I don't have to worry about having to use the gunner to shoot with. The gunner does aim very good if the aim is still and the target isn't moving in a way that requires lead. But that's only something one gets when they sneak up on you flying straight or are behind you at the top of a zoom (I saw that once in my rear view mirror so to speak). Maybe if crippled and slow, and they fly behind slow as well. Here's hoping SoW makes the BordFunker realistic in function even in multiplayer and in aim. Telling where the enemy is.

Did the enemy say anything to comment on such a glorious outcome? I'm sure they didn't expect it (unless it was during the 110 mobster era :P ). I agree, team work and communication is much more important than the planetype. Firepower always mixes well with team work especially while maneuverability and speed I think is outmost important for lone wolfing.

This is a theme with the 110 in general - kill them fast with superior firepower, for there is rarely a second chance. All the tactics seem to be about this. If at first you don't succeed, run... I think one thing I must absolutely do is become a skilled shot with the various cannons, for without that the rest is pretty pointless. The good undistorted forward vision with (unique for a german plane) centered gunsight is part of a strength that must be taken advantage of fully.

I can confirm that observation. It was the most durable fighter during the war, so it's not the wrong plane for it. But was it that extremely durable?

Glancing shots with a 108 are going to do less damage than a full on hit. Sometimes you hit an extremity and you waste a lot of blast damage into empty air. Or at least you do in the sim... I'm sure some of the air pressure effects aren't counted.

Still... some of you have pumped 35 MK108s into a P-47? All it takes is one often enough... sometimes one or two and the whole tail section comes off. It is a bit of a tough plane...

Yeah, I fly the 109K4 alot and while P47s can often take one hit from a Mk108, unless you put the shot into the cockpit or engine, 2 hits are almost always enough.

The only time I have had to put more than 2 rounds into a P47 was one time where I jumped one from behind and fired a 2 round burst, hitting the left stabiliser with one round, blowing it, the left elevator and the rudder off, with the second round going into the left wing, and the P47 was still flying, obviously crippled but holding a steady course and I could see the pilot upright in the cockpit. I made a second pass from above and behind, firing one round into the cockpit, at which point the Jug went nose down and flew straight into the ground.

I always use:

-tanks busting: Bk3,7
-railroad stations and airfield attack: 2xSD500 + 4xSC50
-patrooling and other fighter missions: default
-heavy bomber interception: 2xMK108

About the 108s and the 47, I don't know what was wrong with that particular P47 but it took a lot of hits, yeah. And it's not something unusual. I remember chasing a P47 with Brain32 once, both firing a mixture of 108s, 20mm and 13mm rounds... It really took a lot of hits to bring him down...

Less than with 7.92mm though... Once I've made the test online, I had default armament in the nose... I chased an already damaged 47 (I damaged his engine) and wanted to see how effective those MGs are.... I fired half of my ammunition and scored 800 hits... to no visible effect. At the end I had to score again some 12 x 20 mm rounds to bring it down. Otherwise he would've flown straight back to its base. That's why I gave up the default armament. Usually, one 30mm round = 50 - 100 mg rounds. If you aim properly, this is more effective.

To Mikk Owl, I confirm : the safest way to go out of a bad situation is to have a wingman :)

Manoeuvering is good but then even if you manage to lose an enemy's aim for a few seconds, the 110 poor acceleration makes it hard to take any advantage.

@ Berserk : You have to send me some tracks on how you do that job with the Bk37 against sherman. I never managed anything with that gun.

IL2 1946 Bk 37 is HE round not AP

So killing Shermans must be a round straight into the turret hatch or rear turret area ??
Some early Soviet tanks can be killed with 20mm from the sides.

It was originally AP round in first model with the gun (IIRC) angled down but that was revised into BK 37 HE bomber killer.

The 7.92mm in general are pretty ineffective from straight behind. I recall doing long dogfight sessions with a friend with early war type planes (Hurricane Mk.II etc) and there were times were one could exhaust the entire ammunition supply (at fairly close range from 6 o clock) onto the plane but it would not go down. Some control surface damages in the tail etc, yes. But not go down.

The reason for this is probably as simple as the official conclusions back in the day - only the engines and cockpit are effective to shoot at, while for cannons the entire plane is. MG type projectiles don't have enough energy for penetration of the skin and doing any considerable damage - especially at high deflection angles (straight from behind). And from behind it is hard to hit the engine and cockpit. An exception is if having perfect convergence with 8+ Mg's - then it can start causing destruction anywhere. And this is why the RAF was so concerned with convergece in general.

4x17mg are not completely useless, if used when doing long and medium range deflection shooting. There's so much ammo that you can fire for a really long time (nearly a full minute of trigger time), and hitting is not that difficult.

Often an enemy, when turning into you or around you or whatever, will be putting is lift vector on you (that is, you are straight up from the pilot's seat). This means the cockpit presents itself for a pilot killing opportunity, as well as engine, and the 4x17 fire 80 rounds per second.. almost like a modern minigun. The chance of hitting is much greater than when using the cannons. Just shower the fuselage, let them fly through the hail.

But when dealing with bombers, ground targets, shooting at something from behind, bouncing anything - the 108's are of course extremely superior. The 108 is a much better weapon. Question is how much - really - it affects aircraft performance. An extra 120-200+ kg at the nose should not affect roll rate, but it should make the aircraft have a worse turn rate (especially sustained turn), worse climb, worse acceleration. Meanwhile, it should be more stable (good for gunnery?), less likely to spin, less severe spins that are easier to recover from and..and.. and..

I have had no luck at all with 3.7 vs tanks ever. A big explosion but no dead tanks.

Oktoberfest - what about that Split-S for 110, any specific reason for using it?

Hello Mikkowl,

the reason why I favor the 108s to the MG is that given the already lack of any edge in speed, manoeuvrability and acceleration, I prefer having something that allows to set the game instantly. How good is 5% manoeuvrability more an advantage if all enemy fighters are 2 to 3 times better in manoeuvrability than you anyway, especially if you give up the 1 hit 1 kill option ?

About the split-S, it's the only effective way for the 110 to disengage from an enemy diving on you at high speed. But if you pull too hard on the stick, the plane will shake and you lose actually time to start the dive. Which gives a better opportunity for the enemmy to fire at you.

Of course, if their is enough separation, favor the head on.

Understood. I thought you meant to use Split-S in other situations than just anti-bounce maneuver.

And yes, understood the 108 reasoning before, just like I myself reason exactly the same. :) No point to 110 at all if not having something to use that has an edge.

Guys:

Among all tanks, the only problem I had with KV-1. it should be hit directly in the top of turm. But against Shermans, T-34 and all other lighter tanks it is perfect, I remember I had one mission, with result: 12 T-70, 9 T-34 and 3 KV-1 destroyed :)

Actually, I will look through my records, if some tracks are still exist... I cant record new ones, because my mouse joystick does not work with Win7 (64bit), and it is need a time to search new version of sofware. I didnt flew for 3 month already :)

You can aim for the radiator on the Hurricane. I don't know whether damaging it is modeled in the game, but it certainly makes me feel better. :) The best place to aim on the Hurricane is definitely the fuel tank (right behind the engine), because even if you miss the fuel tank, you'll probably hit the engine or the pilot. And they really do light up easily...no armour around the fuel tank. I've taken down 2 or 3 Hurricanes that way in one sortie after running out of cannon ammo in the 109E (offline of course!). Don't fire at 0 angle-off once you've given the radiator a few hits. Wait until they turn.

You must hit the tank directly into the top of the turret at a high angle.

The Bf110 has an instability problem with the nose wobbling even when perfectly trimmed and rudder inputs at neutral and firing your weapons.
This with the slow rof of the BK37 makes it a poor tank buster under combat conditions, its safer to take bombs and get in and out fast, killing tanks with the BK37 takes time, alot of time but not impossible.

Don't even mention the Stuka G1, Im sure those guns are firing the same HE rounds and not AP as the BF110 :)

The instability is something I've noted as well. It only appears when the aircraft becomes unstable for some reason (provoked on some way). Have to be smooth on the controls if one is to be aiming carefully or wobble will potentially ruin it. The 3.7 cannon certainly provokes it a bit.

To achieve precision with the one must throttle down to not less then 30% power
in the dive => +40°, use the rudder ONLY for last second aim correction and aim about a meter, meter and a half, above the real aim spot.
For starters one should begin the dive at 1100m.
It doesn't matter if one hits the turret-top or the engine cover, one shot, one tank.
One good shot is way better than 2 or 3 hasty shots.
With 62 shots in the magazine the enemy fighters are usually sooner than the empty magazine.
The ju87g1 is much easier to use as it is a bit more stable, slower and has always 2 rounds fired, but only 12 shots.

I have just looked over a test track I made using Bf110 & Bk3.7

I dont usually make tracks but this needs addressing.

Some of these claims of 1 hit any where on a tank and a instant kill I find amazing.

In the track against a Sherman I have made several runs at different angles speeds etc,

I found some taking 3 hits to the rear and engine compartment still not killed, and some taking hits on the rear turret and not being destroyed.

So the "one hit " anywhere claim don't stand with me.

I have a track and its easy to see my missed shots as they explode in the snow on on the road, all other shots are hits on tanks and easy to see at 1/4 speed.

The track has me attacking in different ways so forgive my inaccuracy as I was trying things I didn't usually do.

See what you think :)

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=MSMB9WX9

Screenshot from track, this was the second Bk37 hit the first hit the engine compartment the second the turret rear still no destroyed Sherman !!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...1020-56-12.jpg

It is clearly to see that your angle is too shallow!
As i've written one should have 40+ degree dive angle to get the 1 shot 1 kill results.
The kw1 or is2 sometimes need 2 shots but t34, t44, and shermans need just 1 hit,
best target is the enine compartment, it is bigger then the turret top.

My point is its clearly an HE round Not an AP

I'll stick to taking bombs :)

Please post me a track, because I really don't seem to manage it. Actions are clearer than words :) .

Will do, soonest.

So, as requested is here the 110 as tank-killer.
The flying you will see is not the best because i am not in training.
But you will see one shot -> one tank
http://robtek.de/quick0000.ntrk

I've had alot more sucess with the Ju87G1 with the 3.7's than the 110 personaly.

But I have noticed that the Stuka 3.7's do not make the same blast when hitting their target.

One other thought. With the 3.7's on both the Stuka and 110, convergence seems to play a part.

If I have the convergence too far out on the 110, my impact point is off from where I am aiming.

One convergence trick I have found for the Stuka, (it appears to work for the 110 as well) is to use 300m.

The reason being is at that range and attacking from dead 6 on most any tank, the width of the treads almost touches the horizontal side bars of the Revi gunsight. This way, I know exactly when I am 300m away from the target and in perfect convergence.

The tricky part (esp. in the 110) is dependent on airspeed and getting the quick shot and pulling up.

The correct setting would be 340m according to the official manual of the Bf 110G-2 with the BK 3,7mm Rüstsatz.

For the Ju 87G it is 375m, again according to the manual.

Excelent Zorin, Thanks for the accurate info :grin:
(was that from historical manuals, or from ingame manuals?)

I guess I didn't look that hard for the numbers :oops:, and went and found out through trial and error. I got fairly close eh?

Historical ones.

Yes, got pretty close with your guesstimation. :)

Revi Gunsights: How to Use
 

In every fighter to fighter scenario, one has to destroy the other plane to be successful. This much is given. With the 110 though, it seems that opportunities and options are far fewer than with other fighters in every situation. It has great firepower as main strength but gets far fewer opportunities to use this firepower. This means that the pilot must be an expert marksman because he is unlikely to get more than one chance. And be able to do it at non-optimal ranges (meaning often at longer ranges or at difficult deflection situations).

Head to head mergings, bouncing, some energy tactics, flaps and slowing down so much that the enemy hopefully swings past, giving a moment to use the firepower as they fly/climb/run away in a way that other aircraft cannot (except P-38) do.

The firepower package in the nose is always awesome. 4xmg17 with infinite ammo, 2xMG-FF, or MG-151's with 2xMk 108 30mm cannons. It has the range and ability to reach out and touch people far, far away. All the weapons are fairly equal at longer ranges because the heavier the cannon is, even if it has lower and lower muzzle velocity, does not slow down as much in flight, and catches up with and even overtakes the lighter shells/rounds after a few hundred meters (beyond most people's effective gun range). The MG17's lose most of their power beyond several hundred meters however and as such are not good looong range weapons. Their superior speed is better for hitting stuff very close, and no-convergence means no problem shooting at too close of a range.

If relying on the plane's firepower, and posessing very(!) good gunnery skills, having an external gunpod could even be a good idea. Because if gunnery skills are so good, then aim will be on target - but the RPM of say, two cannons, is low enough that the enemy plane, especially if a small fighter flying straight at or straight away, will be able to fly 'between' the shells. The gunpod can double the amount of shells in the air in the same spot bringing double the potential damage and higher likelyhood of a hit (I'm talking long range here, not up close).

110's should excel in the role of being the 'bag' when it comes to "drag and bag" tactics. Get enemy to chase a friendly plane, then 110 shoots the enemy being dragged by the friendly.

So I think.. that I need to focus on my gunnery much more than acrobatics (which I am decent at after practicing mostly that for too long). So how does one make use of the Revi gunsight fully? Those rings are there for a reason. It was made so the pilot can estimate range to target and lead. Very important, especially at longer ranges. And especially easy if they are flying straight (trying to run away) since the effective gun range is much longer than other aircraft, but the aircraft flies away quickly, the moment is fleeting. Revi gunsights were in most Luftwaffe aircraft back then. There must be manuals and guides for how to use them. I have the official USA gunnery manual from 1942 or so, and while it teaches about gunnery principles, the data is useless as it is all in one of those old arcane systems of measurement that were/are still in use by a few percent of the world. And the sights they used do not have the same properties as the Revi gunsights either. Need real Revi guides.

Well, generally speaking most gunsights are calibrated for a certain wingspan. Don't be surprised for example if the Revis are calibrated for Spitfires.

Now, the way this works is that if you know the approximate wingspan of your targets and the winspan of the target the Revi is calibrated for, you can make some quick calculations and deduce range.

For example, let's say we have a gunsight that's calibrated for a target with a nice, easy, wingspan of 10 meters. The other part of the calibration is at what range the sight is calibrated at. So, in order to make it easy once again, let's say it's calibrated for a target wingspan of 10m at a range of 100m.

What this means in simple temrs it that a plane with a 10m wingspan will fill the entire gunsight when it's 100m from you. I think that by "fill the gunsight" , most gunsights usually mean the circle and not the 4 lines/cross that extend past it. Now, if we see that the same target with a wingspan of 10m fills about half the circle, we know he's 200m away, if he fills a quarter of the circle he's 400m away and so on.

Conversely, when the target has a bigger wingspan it goes the other way around, ie we need to first assess what kind of "sight picture" we'll be getting at 100m for our new target or alternatively, at what range the new target will fill the entire gunsight, before we start approximating the rest of the ranges.

As an easy example, let's say the target is a twin engined bomber with a wingspan of 20m. It's double the span of our original fighter sized target, so it will show up double the size at the same range--->only half of the bomber's wingspan will fit in the gunsight at 100m, but at 200m it will fit nicely in the gunsight's circle. So, when it fills half the gunsight he's not 200m away as the fighter war, he's 400m away.
In short, for 10m span/100m calibration:

target wingspan-----------sight picture---------------range
fighter, 10m-------------------entire sight-----------------100m
---------------------------------1/2----------------------200m
---------------------------------1/4----------------------400m
bomber, 20m-------------------entire sight----------------200m
---------------------------------1/2----------------------400m
---------------------------------1/4----------------------800m

After looking around, it seems that the Revi (at least in IL2, don't know about the real one) is calibrated so that a Spitfire at 100m will fill the entire gunsight. Don't ask me which mark, clipped wing or not :lol:
Wikipedia gives a wing span of 11.23m for a Mk.Vb.
So, i'll just go on a rough but good enough approximation here and just go ahead and assume that 10m of wing span when viewed from a Revi at a distance of 100m, will give us a sight picture of the target's wingtips being slightly inside the gunsight's circle.

Better yet, we could look up the wingspans of the most likely targets. We already know that Spit(11.23m) at 100m will fill the gunsight.

A P-47D is a bit wider at 12.42m, so at 100m range his wingtips will be a bit outside the gunsight's ring.

A P-51D is very close to the Spitfire, with 11.28m of wingspan, so we'll just treat it the same (100m when gunsight is filled).

The A-20 is 18.69m. Let's make it easy on ourselves and say it's almost roughly 1.6 times the Spit's wing span, so when it fills the gunsight it will be at 160 meters.

A B-25 is 20.6m, so it's almost double the size of the Spit. That means it's almost 200m away when it fills the sight.

A B-24 is 33.5m, that's about 3 times the Spit's size, so it gives us 300 meters when the sight is full.

A B-17 is 31.52m, so it will be a bit less than 300 meters away from us when it fills the gunsight circle.

That's the first part of using the gunsight, so that you can determine range effectively. There are other more technical issues as well, but i'm not as familiar with them. For example, you can use the sight in accordance with your angle-off target to determine the lead you need to pull. However, this can get complicated depending on relative speeds between you and the target, as well as the projectile ballistics.

Most of all, in planes like the 110 that carry 2-3 different kinds of guns, the convergence might seem not to be an issue but because of different ballistics the guns have different arcs in the vertical axis. Shooting a bit outside of convergence you might sometimes see that while the gunfire "meets" on the horizontal axis, there's still vertical separation between the shells, ie you could be getting hits on the target's fuselage, wingroots and wingtips, but half your cannons are shooting too high or too low and you waste half of your projectiles.

This is not so much a problem when you have a lot of ammo that still deals a good punch however.

I'm not very experienced with estimating lead from angle-off with the gunsight so i usually do it by experience alone, but i think you can find a good tutorial on the movies section of this forum (it's called "bag the Hun" i think) that discusses a few more technical stuff:
http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=5012

Official shooting manual
 

S!

Here is a link to an official "Horrido - Des Jägers Schiessfibel" shooting manual approved by Galland. It's in german, and has humorous depiction of things :)

http://rafiger.de/Homepage/Literatur/Schiessfibel.pdf

And finnish translation here:
http://www.virtualpilots.fi/hist/WW2...mpumaopas.html


Pages 9 and 10 are most informative. Basically contains what Blackdog already said.

-LLv34_Untamo

That's a nice find, but i have never been able to read it. Is there any kind of English translation floating around?

Most of all i'd like to see if there's a more "scientific" way of determining lead by angle-off, so that i don't have to do it by experience alone.

Thanks for all the info and links everyone. I have not had the chance to go through ALL of it yet, but I will before flying again :)

Translation issue: go to translate.google.com and input the adress to the finnish version (that's what I did, works, though a bit cryptic at times. Very interesting and good advice for pilots on how to simplify things).

Angle-off: The only scientific way is to use geometry :p I mentally see the flight path of the aircraft ahead of it, with a target box indicating where to shoot at any given moment. But this box is often way off, and I fail to compute if speed is not slow and angle-off is beyond say, 60 degrees. I can think well in 3D so the flight path line starts from making a line between the tail and the center of the nose, then it keeps projecting.

This does not solve the angle-off-tail determination if going about it less intuitively. I took a moment to think about this issue before writing the post.. I recommend that you go into the model viewer in IL-2 and look at the aircraft you mostly face. Look at which angle the wing of the aircraft closest to you protrudes as far as the nose, then memorize what angle this was. Repeat with wing on the other side of the aircraft (away from you) - at some point the wing will be at the same point as the rear elevator, and if a bit more, it will be the same as the stabilizer (disappears and is unobservable past this angle).

The steps above can be repeated from the front aspect of the aircraft, then comparing the wing on your side to the stabilizer and the outer wing to the nose.

It's something at least. It works even if there is some vertical variation (from below/above) somewhat as well.

Haven't noticed the instability problem you mention here. The 110 just need constant fine tuning of the elevator + rudder trimming. Relatively small changes in speed (and throttle input) needs adjustment of both rudder + elevator trimming. I prefer to always trim the elevator negative ( means I have to slightly pull on the stick to keep it level ) this helps a lot in the dives where it is inevitable that you will gain more speed and screw up your trimming.

BTW going in a steep angled dive in an online server with a high ping (mine avg between 250ms(eu) - 350ms(usa)) is a sure way to die. ALWAYS go in with a shallow dive, fire from some distance to give you ample time to pull up.

As for tank busting , I have one golden rule, If I can't kill it from the side I don't waist my time with said target. Just skip the tanks ( unless you have SD/SC 500s, even so if they aren't tightly grouped don't bother ) , go for soft targets trucks, half tracks , and mobile artillery. Half tracks and trucks you kill with the 20mm's (one short burst do the trick), Mobile artillery you can also kill with 20mm , but I prefer to give them a short burst of the mk108's.

I have NEVER been able to kill a heavy tank on an online server with the mk108 or bk 3.7 ,and I have never seen it done either...

Always take 2xmk108+2x20mm's ( with optional bombs if your mission is JABO, SD500's if you can)
Bombs set to 2.5-3.5 secs delay.
If you find an enemy on your six and you still have your bombs you can use them as a last ditch defense too, hit the deck +- 20m , drop your bombs as the enemy gets in range ( you need some practice to find the right delay + distance + speed and more importantly to fly the plane low on the deck while you are looking at enemy from the you gunner position.. ).
That said this is a last resort. As Oktoberfest said, if at all possible turn to face your enemy.

~S Oktober , been a while since we shared the skies m8.

The Revi gunsights are no doubt not calibrated for spitfires. More likely it uses the mil system, marking the rings accordingly. Biggest ring is probably 100 meters across at 1000 meters, and 10 meters across at 100 meters. The ones inside I haven't checked but one can visually figure it out by checking their ratio compared to the main ring. I'm sure the gunnery manual we found in german and finnish tells it correctly. :)

I found all kinds of pilot manuals for the Bf 110 series (and Me-210's, Me-410's, 109's, Fw-190's, Ju 87's, Ju 88's, Ju-188's, He-111's, He-162's, Me-262's, Do-17's), from early to late models. Even several different ones for various G-2 models depending on loadout options. Including the Mk 108 version.. It even has illustrations/charts showing the ballistic path of the 108 shells compared to the 151/20 shells. It's all in German which I don't understand well. Going to select the most interesting parts and type them into google translate I guess so I can make sense of them. I do look forward to learning how the real pilots flew those things - making use of all the instrument panels for RPM, manifold pressure and so forth. :)

I found the manuals here: http://deutscheluftwaffe.de/archiv/D.../Dokumente.htm - Click on "F" and then scroll down to "Flugzeug Handbücher". Then on the manufacturer.

EDIT: Crappy, been looking through the 110 ones, and they are mainly just technical manuals, not really for piloting. Not the gold mine I thought it was.

The Ju87G Stuka uses an AP only belting, the Bf110G and Hs129 have a mixed AP-HE-HEI belting

Fact...

This will probably change for the Hs129 with the coming 4.10 patch. The Bf110 has a mixed belting probably because its meant to be hunting bombers with it, not tanks. And I doubt that Bf110s ever enjoyed the luxury of being given expensive tungsten core AP shells for tank hunting, these were exclusive to the Ju87G (and maybe Hs129)

I was waiting for someone who knew the IL2 actual belting for the Bf110 ,in this thread there are claims of 1 hit one kill with it on tanks, this confirms what I thought about the Bf110 and the loadout change that was made when Oleg put the BK 37 up level from tilted down a few degrees when it first come out in IL2, and why some attacks in a Bf110 are not instant kills because of the belting.

Also the Bf110 rear gunner reloaded the BK37 with 6 shells at a time, if the BK 37 got the correct rate of fire, 160rpm, the gunner would be loading every 2.5 seconds.