Friday 2009-11-06 Screenshots Update discussion thread
 

Please don't post anything untill the update is online.

I'd buy a "fisherman's" sim with that quality!!!

Seeing the ships' pictures, the planes seem ugly to be honest.

All I can say is that ships' pictures are like painted photographs.
I can't imagine them getting any better with today's technology!!!

Just my first impression on this update.

time to save money to buy a new pc

Really aircraft are with more detials and better quality. Simply you don't see the ships from so close distanse like aircraft.

In reallity all is balanced for the proper distances of view - from aircraft :).

Thank you.

Wow, the water transparency and the ships look amazing...also, the trees look a hell of a lot better than in the last few shots.

I told that there was bug of LODs

I'm exctremely impressed of the level of details you are putting into this game!
It's more and more obvious that this piece of software will be used to a lot more than flightsimming.
I'm really astonished and amazed by these pictures!

Skarphol

Terrific update Oleg.

Level of Detail in the ships is top-notch! Will there be people in them ingame?

can't wait to strafe one in my Spit.

How many faces do the ships have? Texture size?

Thanks for the update. Everything is coming along nicely :-)

agreed

Amazing detail, thanks a lot Oleg&Team! I just saw a AMD directX11 trailer and was impressed by the tesselation feature. Does this feature make sense in Flight simulations? Are you thinking about implementing it in SoW?

Henrik is going to build ships ;)

I have a few blueprints in stock. And lots of spare time on my hands :grin:

Are you Foo'bar going to leave the shipbuilding at the Ferry you allready made? I read somewhere that someone was looking for drawings of riverbarges :cool:

I remember, just pointing it out. :) If the ground detail is as amazing as I'm beginning to think based upon the screenshots we've seen so far, this engine could easily manage to produce a game where players can participate in conflict from the air right down to ground or sea vehicle combat all at the same time online, given enough time and 3rd-party developers. Even infantry-level combat, if it was a bit less graphically detailed at that level than a dedicated FPS...it's a pity game developers haven't tried that kind of thing more often, like with Silent Hunter II and Destroyer Command.

Hi Oleg! Beautiful work! As usual, it seems you've paid attention to getting the light 'right'. I particularly like the ship/7 shot, with the ship partially blocking the sun's reflection- excellent!

Two questions: 1) Will you have large ocean swells and larger waves (possibly breaking?) and interaction between wind and wave?

2) Looking at the Spitfire cockpit you posted two updates back (it's my desktop) I noticed that the instrument needles weren't throwing a shadow on the instrument faces. Also, that the instruments looked flat- no depth behind the glass instrument face- do you plan on having the reflective effect off of instrument faces and modelling depth of instrument (shadows on instrument faces, etc)?

Thank you for the look at your work!

I really like the lighting and the shadows cast. Even the ship's reflection on the water is looking excellent.

Wow - 3 Fridays in a row Oleg! Yippeeeeeeeeee. Loving the pilot in the Spit.

Are you planning any interaction between rescue (or enemy) boats and downed airmen in liferafts?

Keep up the great work.

Cheers

PPanPan

I have a question, maybe silly.
It is for this picture: http://files.games.1c.ru/il2pict/ship06.jpg

In the front-left of the ship, in the sea, I see the red reflection.
Where does it come from? I think a ship of that height would not reflect so far away, so I guess it's something else. Is it the sun? Is it some object we don't see?

Just curious.

Thx very much Oleg.


Nice to finally see the water and whats gonna be in/on it. :)

It's the small barge, about 100 meters ahead. On other screenshot you can see it better.

Small Barge is behind

1. We will have waves, but i don't think we will be able to make all the physics.
Maybe in time we will be able to add new effects. However all we have now is way more that we had in Il-2 for the fligth sim.

2. My guys said following thing: All needles may drop a shadow. If the distance beween the scale and neddle is more than 3 mm (in real scale ).
However its a question to make it finally due to overloading of too many other things in a cockpit. We will see.
In pronciple any detail may drop the shadow in our engine. Simply sometime we need to go for compromise that to get better FPS.

Wonderful images, can almost hear the gulls!! Thank you for all the work done so far.

Thank you very much Oleg, impressive water detail. S!

Hi Oleg and teamwork guys!! :grin:

Excellent work, very nice update.

Only one thing:

The Spit Pilot´s seems too fat, i think.

I think that is very wide between chest and back. (not because clothes).

Thx. (keep on working well,and success will be complete :grin: )

King regards.

Oleg, do you plan to animate the pilots' head movements to follow the view the player uses in the cockpit, TrackIR or otherwise? I thought that was a very nice detail in the Rise of Flight videos I saw. A bit pointless, perhaps, but the guy is our little virtual avatar.

In Il-2 there was such a feature for AI pilots. In Rise of flight there is simple animation of pilot that instead of radio may give some commands by hand. However animation there is not like in FPS games when we look close up.

I can't tell you now what we plan to have... because we have some limited time. But you will see something more than in Il-2 :)

I can already hear my PC howling for mercy. And I mean the PC I have yet to buy for SoW. ;)

Lovely shots.

As always the nicest things are off the focus ;)

- The transparent water looks great and pretty realistic!

- The lighting of the trees is great. They also look very detailed and diverse, not like the same tree just cloned over and over again.

Lovely!

Hi Oleg

The boats and water look simply fantastic.

A couple of questions:

1. Will there be any animations or crew on the boats themselves?
2. Will the boats be able to go move on rivers and estuaries and right up to the shore, unlike IL2?

Thanks again for all you and the team are doing.

PPanPan

Every time I read you mention limited time it dawns on me that SOW is getting closer faster.
I know you will not entertain speculation on when you will release the game, but just hearing you mention a time limit is fantastic.
Great water effect way better than Silenthunter 4.
Awesome!

yes! there was another update coming.

you're spoiling us Oleg, not that I'm complaining. :)

1. This I alsready answered in the past. At first the work over pilots and crew of AAA. Then we will see... We really did a lot, but not all things may go in final release. If not going - then if all will be fine with the sales we wil add new features. Sounds something like this.
2. Will. At least now can.

But in Rise of Flight is possible to see the head movements from a pilot, even online. (TrackIR)

Would that be also possible in SoW?

Very beautiful vessels, but will they have complex damage models? (Slow flooding, fires, damage to engines, damage to bridge, no huge explosions unless carrying ammo, etc.) I think anti-shipping missions are one the most exciting possible in Il-2, but the over-simplfied DMs of ships make it very disappointing in the end.

Also, will there be a possibility of players being awarded credit for damage to ships? Can damage to ships (particularly capital ships) carry over from mission to mission?

1. we have complex damage and this will depens of the ship type. As more greater ship - more details of damage.
2. Can't answer this question. Can about credit - yes it is possible.

You probably shouldn't because most of them will be british lol. Again...for all those waiting I recommend to read some books about BoB.

Oleg,

Nice water effect and nice boats.

Oleg, I wonder what might happen when aircraft
lands on the water, might it stay afloat for a while?

Many thanks for your answers Oleg. Given the massive anticipation of this release, the existing IL2 fanbase and growing Bird of Prey fanbase, I cannot believe "all will [not] be fine with sales". I'll eat my flying hat if BoB SoW doesn't sell like hot cakes.

Sorry to have repeated a question. It is very hard to check all your answers :).

PPanPan

Yes.

Thanks for the fantastic update Oleg!

I'm afraid with the high level of detail shown in the sea vessels you're raising our expecations of the level of interaction with them :)

Can we expect, perhaps not in the first release, the crew of boats to be going around, merrily performing their tasks and scurrying for cover when they're strafed? Maybe even try to take pot shots back at the aircraft? Perhaps wave at friendly aircraft when they fly by? Imagine their shock when they're shot at by friendlies :)

I can see myself crashing quite a bit as fly around at low level admiring the gorgeous boats. In such a scenario, can we expect to be able to kick out the canopy, struggle up to the surface through the bubbles and contemplate excuses to give the HQ for the crash as we bob in the waves surrounded by the crash debris in our Mae West waiting to be rescued?

Home
 

Guys,

I'm sorry, I really should run at home.
Last week I was really sick and come in office today to make some news and shots.

I will take a look on Monday this topic. And will answer interesting or these that I can already now answer questions.

Also probably next development update you will see on SimHq. I promised this week, but got unexpected illness.


Till Monday

Great post airmalik - I agree on all counts. I would also add the possibility of crew jumping overboard when under attack or even just when buzzed by a very low friendly. Now that would be fun!!

PPanPan

The little fishing boat reminds me of the one in the movie "Guns Of Navarone". Great update.

Get well soon Oleg - take it easy(ish!!)

PPanPan

since recent updates take in game , independetly of the great details for all objets and now for the ships , I note how the lighting take a actual or real look

one question : light reflections beetween objets will be implemented or not ?

for exemple in ships screens , the ship reflect in the sea but the sea don' t reflect on the ship

I understand it's been mentioned a handful of times that the sim will take use of multicore CPUs. I'm curious as to what you're impressions are of having this extra processing power. Does it really allow your developers to do more?

I'm also curious as to what you think on the other side of the coin. Do you see all these amazing graphics to be more GPU dependant?

The only reason why I ask there is little doubt you got the IL2 engine to scale and even by today's standards I consider it to be top notch. CPU or GPU dependant?

The way I see most of the newer SIMS they seem to be more CPU dependant.

I've got a question I didn't noticed earlier: Will leafs of trees move due to wind?

And plane will wave together with surface of water?

These ships look really nice! I sure hope that there will be some warships, too. :)

Can you please tell a bit more about the more complex damage model you've already mentioned?

Thanks for the update, all you guys are doing a great job!

Ok, now I'm back on whining again, but I really think a lot of people ask very many unnessesairy questions. Questions that are really hung up in details!! MINOR details!
Why don't you just wait and see, and then be amazed by the all the little things that MG has put into this game instead of trying to get Oleg to answer all of these rather unimportant things?

Well, just my two cents..
The game is going to flabergast us anyway!

Skarphol

just think...
 

PC component sales will go up for sure when SoW_BoB hits the shelves. I wonder how long before technology be available to will allow this sim to run with everything turned on? Perhaps by then there will have been several add-on releases! :D
Flyby out

I'd absolutely love that! I can see myself spending a LOT of time making the sailors jump off from different positions on their boats. I predict the guy up high on the mast rigging sails would make the most entertaining dive :lol:

Oh while we're dreaming, and I'd LOVE a character to be based on Captain Haddock - he is English after all :) I can imagine him pulling himself back up on the boat in his soaked uniform, his smoking pipe dripping water, a broken bottle of whiskey in one hand, shaking the other at the attacking aircraft! I think there's a scene like that in 'The Red Sea Sharks'.

Cool
 

Sahweet! Thanks for the update.

Sim HQ gets the next set?


so true about a PC . . . I was going to build a dual core to replace my 3 ghz (since duals are cheaper with the new quads and octas), but maybe I'll just hold off for the 8-12 cores.


I like the detail, those ships look photogenic! Also there is one where you can see the propeller and rudder under the water, awesome!

And they are WIP, so finished is going to be better. The pictures keep improving . . .

Remember the aircraft are as detailed / more than the ships. The ships look nicer because they are commercial and airplanes have more drab. But look at the spit cockpit or the spit pilot, and the bf-110, the me-109 pix, and they are just as well done as the ships.

The pilots are pretty detailed, i know its s WIP. WIth their hand positions as they look like they are driving (the br20 they have yokes, so it's ok).



Its cool how BOB SOW updates coming out, and seemingly coordinating with wings of prey on PC release.

Get new people into WOP, then hit them with BOB SOW. Kind of a taste of things to come. IL-2 1946 people are already into BOB SOW.




A question, is the damage model universal for all vehicles or do aircraft get something extra (more complex, like a 4 engine bomber, more complex the damage model) ?

Also is there a damage progression set of pictures?


Final one, when Wings of Prey is released, will we be seing a big update (like a in game video, or video examples of the flight / damage / ballistics model)?

Well, Oleg posted before that he plans SoW to be an engine for the next decade. He possibly already has a neural implant interface integrated ;)

Hi Oleg, hope you get well soon (or whoever in your family is ill).



I only have a small question based on the water transparency.

I know its WIP, but still thought I'd ask:


The part of the boat that is underwater, and that we can see through the water, seems not to be affected by refraction. I know it's nit picking but I think it takes away from the overall realism of the image.

Are you planning on adding refraction to light passing through transparent materials?


Thanks! And again, I know it's nit picking, and if it doesn't make it in the final it wouldn't change my mind about getting and enjoying this game!

One small question regarding last update about a minor detail.

Bf 109E had mechanical landing gear position indicators sticking out of the top of the wing skin when undercarriage was lowered (similiar to those seen on Il-2 Sturmovik aircraft). Hopefully this detail will be present..? Would be cool.

Can provide photographic reference if needed.

Someone was asking about instrument needle shadows.... I've been flying for about 30 years now and I have never noticed this before. Something to watch out for on my next flight.

If the object details are going to get any better it's going to look spooky without a lot of people moving about and doing their thing.

I have MS Ship simulator and these ships look as good or better. Can,t wait to "interact" with those vessels.

December of 2010 is going to be expensive. Keep the updates coming Oleg.

get better! you've given us more goodness to drool over. thanks! cant wait for more!

I agree that needle shadows are not going to be noticeable in real life. The instruments are not flat though, check out this video of the Su-26 where the panel is rotated. You can see reflection in the glass, and the depth of the gauges.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJHz3TnehmY

Someone asked about refraction in the water already. I wonder, will it be possible at some time in the game engine to have refraction of the gun-sight and armored glass?

The water and the boat's look GREAT!...I'm a commercial fisherman, so for a minute I felt like I was back at work.:)

Water and boats look great!

The barge could be a little sharper, but not bad.

Very beautiful. It's amazing what one can do. Ok I think I exagerated, with "one" I mean a whole team.

This might allready have been asked bevor, I'm wondering if the fog is implemented in the game. Since in England there is a lot of fog. But then again why, one doesen't want to fly in the fog. But still....

New PC time Soon
 

At last, a reason to go multi-core.
I work as an engineer using 3D CAD. Sadly Solidworks does not really take advantage of multi core CPUs (except for a few functions). My latest work PC is only dual core, I spend a lot of time watching the CPUs maxed out at only 50%.
If AMD and Intel had any sense they would be pumping money into projects like this.

jeez, what is the average computer according to you guys :P. 90% of the players will have to buy a new one I think... inlcuding me :(.
If you can hold up the release untill 2015, I will have the money for a computer :)

LOL! The good news is you'll never need to heat the computer room again, perhaps the whole floor.........

Well I've got an Intel i7 but I'm not at all convinced my rig will be enough! The game looks like it'll be stunning!

I'm wondering about modelling ship crew members because if you strafe those guys there's bound to be a gory mess unless they just disappear, which would be a bit unrealistic. I do seem to recall Oleg mentioning that flocks of gulls would not produce blood splatter when hit, so it would stand to reason that people wouldn't be treated any differently.

Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing "blood n' guts" depicted as long as it was done in a realistic way...
________
MARIJUANA STRAIN INDEX

Stukas have got to have something to bomb in the Channel!
________
WEED VAPORIZERS

It doesn't really seem like people follow the updates (a lot of repeat questions), and some people don't seem to get what Oleg & crew are trying to create. And yet, some other people seem obsessed with the idea of turning a great "flight combat sim" into a "first person land/sea/air combat sim"...Oleg has already stated his feelings on the issue, but I guarantee we will read (yet another) question that relates to the issue.

I think you're confusing people commenting on capabilities of the engine and people commenting on the game. Bear in mind that what Oleg and company are working on is first and foremost a game engine, and sales of the engine are likely to be nearly as important as sales of the game itself. I think the number of comments relating to that sort of thing are more because it's the first engine that looks like it might be capable of producing a semi-decent simulation of a number of different types of fighting all at the same time than because they expect Maddox Games to do so themselves. I don't think anyone's expecting any departure from the flight-sim genre from Oleg and co.

I agree. Some of the questions seem to be a little nit-picky in nature, but I think people just like to know what the new engine's capabilities are. I think most people agree that Oleg makes a quality product (the best WW2 flight combat sim out there), so I wouldn't rule out anything as far as what SoW might offer. It's the little details that can really make a difference.
________
Lovely Wendie

i see an explosion of updates and many time dadicated from athors...
it seems that BOB is going to be out at last...:grin:

anyway,great work..

Dang. Had to register finally to ask some questions.

Seeing these boats raised the following questions for me...


1a) Are we going to be getting flyable seaplanes/floatplanes/flying boats?
1b) If so, will there be possible missions rescuing shot down flyers?

2a) Will we get to run anti-shipping patrols/convoy attack missions?
2b) If yes, will the ships take evasive actions to avoid torpedoes, or try to dodge level bombing attacks (Presumably this could be scaled to depend on visibility as well)?

3) Is it possible in the future that we will get to see guided anti shipping weapons like the Germans used on the Fw-200s (and other planes, but that's whats on my mind right now).


Can't wait to see the next update :p

For a moment I heard seagulls...

Thanks for the update Oleg. And thank you team too.

PR

Thanks for the update.

A couple of questions:

- I hope the stopped propeller when pause is pressed is configurable. It may not be always wanted when taking screen shots and so.

- Will it have a resource to export aircraft data so we can link with other peripherals and apps (as devicelink did, but more comprehensive - simpit intended)? Will it work also online?

- Could one watch a recorded track from another pilot PoV (inside his cockpit)?

From the past preview we saw, it will have moving air masses. so...

- Will it have gauges to provide windspeed, temperature and pressure? (high level precision bombing intended)

thanks
tityus

Thanks for the video, Romanator, it answered a couple of questions for me. As for the shadow an instrument needle throws, it is noticeable. The cockpit shot of that Spit is a perfect example of the lighting necessary. Much more important is Oleg's reply- objects with as little as 3mm of separation will throw shadows! That is amazing resolution!

BigC208, who you flying the Caravan for?

Well...I'm not really sure that, "first and foremost", game engine sales are as important as game sales. Its my understanding that they started working on the new game engine because the future development of the "Sturmovik" series was compromised by the limitations of the existing game engine. Oleg has said that the "add-ons" that will be developed by 3rd party's are important for the future growth of the series...but I don't think that is the same thing.

Now...all that being said, I too understand the allure of the fantasy. I don't think that their is a single "war history buff / gamer" out their that wouldn't love a realistic, all encompassing, FPS / aircombat / armor / sea battle / simulator...BUT, we better hope that a huge gaming corporation picks up the idea, because the amount of time it would take to develop a good product would be monumental (even with Oleg's amazing engine as a starting point).

That's probably why I didn't say that. ;) I said that what they're working on is first and foremost a game engine.

I was referring to this part of your statement...

Engine sales or licensing are big, big money. I don't see how that couldn't be important. Of course it's not the main objective, but then neither was licensing the engine the main objective in the development of the Quake or Unreal engines, and look how widely they were licensed, and how well id and Epic profited financially. Licensing is far less common outside the FPS genre, of course.

It will be interesting to see how much of that goes on...but I might point out that the FPS games and the "flight combat sims" have a very different audience, and a very different demographic. Oleg could license his game engine to other flight combat maker, but it could have the undesirable effect of reducing the overall "SoW" sales. Oleg's engine would need a lot of development (I assume) to make it into a competitive FPS, so I can only assume that a developer looking to make a WW2 based shooter might start with a different engine.

p.s. I didn't mean to gloss over your closing statement..."Licensing is far less common outside the FPS genre, of course."

Does anyone know the final planeset ? For instance, there will be the G.50 and CR.42 ?

With all these questions about seagulls, seamen crawling back and forth, bycicle rides etc., I have lost sight of the main subject of this flight sim ....

Bye,
Ins

I think Oleg originally planned 9 planes, later 11...

If I'm not mistaken we will have these either in the box, or in the first patch:

G-50, BR-20

Bf-109 E1, E-3. Bf-110. Ju-87 B-2. Ju-88 A-1. He-111.

Spitfire MkI, Hurricane MkI, Bristol Bolingbroke.

Su-26

Probables:

Gloster Gladiator, Tigermoth.

AI, including probable AI: Dornier 17, Beaufighter, Wellington, Walrus, Ju-52, BP Defiant, Fiat CR 42, Bristol Blenheim, Bf-108, Autogyro, Fw-200 Condor, Avro Anson, 2 German seaplanes which I can't name, Short Sunderland.

+1

Thankfully there are some new sheriffs coming soon to clean up the 'banana mess'

He 115 and He 59

Very well said! Totally agreed.

Skarphol

I would assume that the guys will keep a very sharp eye on what the developers who use their engine will be using it for. Seems to me that Oleg himself has no interest at this time in heading the development of anything other than projects based upon WWII aviation (I might be COMPLETELY wrong, of course :) ) In terms of me personally, there's no way I'm NOT going to buy any of the WWII SoW projects, but I'll definitely buy Project Galba, and if a third-party developer creates a sim based upon late 50s/early 60s jets like the F-105 and the F-4, I would definitely buy that as well in a heartbeat.
I imagine that the same could be said of anyone regarding some particular area of aviation outside WWII. I would assume that the engine would be licensed to other people like Ilya who want to create projects outside the WWII-timeframe, or even outside the aviation genre. The fact is, though, the main team's sales are likely to be hard to compete with, because the majority of combat sim players want their own little hit of the WWII aviation drug, it's not a niche interest within the combat sim market.

Hmmm, I was thinking more about the possibilities of this game engine for producing a ground vehicle based combat game. That seems to be something the engine could be adapted for. Oleg has mentioned that the engine supports skeletal animation, so the presence of convincingly-animated infantry should be possible in any game based on this engine, if not necessarily playing from their perspective.

Well, actually the community discusses what is available in each update.
In latest update we saw some fantastic sea and ships and this is definitely a plus for a flight sim taking place over the sea.
In IL-2 we had the Russian land to flight over, in BoB we'll have the Channel sea to fly over and we all hope it's not going to be some empty blue landscape.

So, yes, seagulls, seamen and ships are important for this game coming and thankfully OM & Team understand this and deliver the best as we see in this update :grin:.

With regards to planeset, there has been a reply in original announcement, but I guess OM will update us when time is suitable (I pretty think that we'll see a bit more than original announcement).

Exactly! Have those guys even SEEN what's IN the update? :confused: Are we not allowed to discuss the actual content of the updates any more if the screenshots aren't of planes?

While it might be possible i doubt it would be very effective , or for that matter look and handle any good.. i'd say stick with aviation for that engine which it is mainly adapted for.

Leave the Infantry and vehicle combat warfare to TripeWire Interactive (Red Orchestra) they handle it excellent and besides they've got the Unreal Engine 3 up and running for their new project RO : Heroes of Stalingrad which will be awesome for any realism fps fan.

LOL I've peered into this forum every and each day, several times a day, since the latest stream of updates, and used to do it every other day before the Oct 23rd and since I joined this forum YEARS ago ... In fact May 22nd is a date I'm very familiar with ... :-) I guess you as well ... or not ?

Fact is, that I'm pleased that bycicles and hyperdetailed fishing boats made their way into this sim, but still my main focus is flight and warbirds, and I'm eager to see more of those. It looks like this thread lost a little bit interest for planes, in favour of divagations and sometimes eccentrical requests.
Do not see my point as a critic, all contributions from veterans and newcomers is more than welcome, of course.

Have a nice day,
Insuber

Thanks for the answer Dolphin. It has been so long since the original announcement that I almost forgot the announced planeset; by heart the CR.42 was in, but I'm not sure. I'll ask Oleg next time he will pop in here. It would be funny to discover that seagulls and fishing boats stole programming time to some good solid old plane, wouldn't it be ? ;-)

Regards,
Insuber

I agree...people are asking for such small details that dont really matter and would take up CPU power...people will complain if we dont see good FPS with lots of planes in the sky.


All i care about is seeing lots of planes, a great FM, a great DM with nice eye candy on the planes and landscape.

We all want that, but, too, it's the little things that make it seem real.

Don't you guys think that in a sim the level of details of every single object has to correspond to each other?

I wouldn't like a game where only the planes are looking phantastic while all other environment looks like Lego.

In this I totally agree and I've said it before that we shouldn't be asking for unnecessary things that will make the flight experience difficult due to low FPS.
Of course, the sea and ships are not unnecessary.
They are actually things much needed in the total experience.

Anyway, I think we all agree in same things, but sometimes we misconceive other people's posts. We all want a flight sim (above all), that will exist in a nice environment as Foo'bar is correctly pointing.

Oleg has long said that he's building a cinematic combat flight sim engine, hinting strongly that the engine will eventually be capable of expanding into land and sea combat.

Not only will the aircraft be cinematic but everything you see from the cockpit will be cinematic. It may not happen in the initial BOB release, due too time restraints, computer, and code capabilities, BUT I have no doubt Oleg will come close to this vision if inital sales of BOB SOW are good enough to allow the team to continue work on the SOW series.

This, along with 3 party enhancements, should give the SOW series a very long life span.