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Give me some "holy sh... did that just happen" ideas
We all know the drill. Read briefing. Take off. Follow waypoints. Engage target. Maneuver. Go home. Debrief.
I'm looking for some ideas to break up the monotony. Things that make you jump out of your seat. Things that immerse you in the game world. These can be based on historical events, or these can be your own ideas, as long as they're rooted in reality. This means things that happen before the mission, during the mission, or after the mission. Interesting new mission types. Events. Features. These can be one-off events we may try to recreate during the mission, or more general ideas such as "it'd be cool if X did Y when Z". And yes, while it'd be extremely cool if a variety of highly detailed civilian females with 20 types of historical clothing walked the Prince of Wales pier, and propwash of you Spitfire affected their skirts, and it'd be even cooler if the captain of the German schooner dropped his monocle when a flight of Blenheims appeared on the horizon, but let's try to keep in mind that we have limited development resources and a tight schedule. I have lots of ideas of my own, but I'd like to keep them a secret. So I may be a little vague further down the thread when I see an idea I've already had or something new I'd like to use. Also, please try to keep this thread constructive. Let's use it to offer new or add to existing ideas. Let's not turn it into a heated discussion of why you think a certain idea sucks. |
What I'd really like to see would be the following: after beeing briefed in a airfield barrack you'll jump into the back seat of a Kübelwagen already waiting outside, with a driver sitting front left. While you are beeing driven to your plane you are looking outside the car, watching the busy workers on the airfiled, passing hangars with wide open doors, hearing noise and the hammering from inside, seeing the planes standing inside wich are beeing worked on. Landed planes are being pulled into the hangar by tractors. While underway perhaps the driver is speaking to you, asking humble questions like "how are you today?" or "your plane has been repaired properly after your last flight." or something else.
Well, not even "just happened"... I just have visions ;) |
Pierre Clostermann wrote a lot about how his squadron tried to avoid all known flak areas, not just the enemy's. the problem was the average soldier or sailor's aircraft recognition was so bad they'd shoot at anything, resulting in a lot of friendly fire incidents.
maybe you could model something similar? maybe even being accidentally bounced by friendly aircraft? |
Random floating debris, lifeboats, survivors, and oil slick on the water when the ship goes down. Something like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_YbdMQkw-ro |
One of the very first idea which comes to my mind is to use extensively the ability to change weather during the mission, notably degradation of weather on the home run. In many cases the most challenging issue during a mission is to find back your airfield, and sometimes any airfield.
This being said it may not be that much of an issue in BoB per se, but more at its end and during later times when the increasing number of forays on the continent and degradation of weather conditions with fall and winter would lead to many harrowing returns to base... |
I would like to have my mechanic yell and curse at me for not running my machine according to specs / his advice. I want him to give me tips on how to not over stress my plane.
It would also be great to have an interactive flight training school, you have to earn your wings before going into a campaign for example (of course this could be optional to the player). May be these training lessons could be user / custom made too by the community. One idea I've often thought about is the player could be selected as a test pilot for new planes that are introduced in further add-ons. Why does a career always have to involve combat? |
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I mean, it is really, really cool just to ride a little red convertible to your Spit, watch the driver steer and hear him make small talk, and have him meet you after the mission and drive you back to CP (or the toilet if you've been shot up), but then... It's never as simple as it seems. |
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I think Ilya means something different. I think mostly he needs mission ideas ;)
Please check email (though nothing constructive there lololol). |
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Rescues were always nice .... can we get some good animations ? |
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Also, general ideas on what to do when are also interesting. I don't even know what they could be, just looking for something to spark some interest. Something that blows up unexpectedly, something that makes a visual impact, interesting target type, etc. In short, we remain totally committed to historical accuracy and incredible attention to detail, but that doesn't mean we can't improve immersion by modeling something really cool here and there. |
It seem's many would like some form of human interaction. Why not give the user the ability to insert his own file, perhaps a small clip to play from an old movie, or perhaps an old newsreel clip. The clip would be user determined, and user supplied. For example upon spawn an old 2 minute seen from a movie would play that you have selected. This file could be replaced at will while editing a mission, or creating a new. Seems an easy way to add that "human touch"
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Simplest thing to do - is flying into a flock of birds.
In polar areas - sometimes to get the polar lights on. I have seen them once even in Vilnius, and that's just 55' north. Rescue missions - on the appropriate planes. Photorecon missions. With automatically generated follow-up bomber/attacker missions. And photos supplied by user. Plus, something may change in between (ships moved in or out of the port, grunts reinforced, tanks moved into the forest). |
Ilya, what about some random unexpected mechanical failures as a difficulty option to spice up the missions. You have probably already thought about it.
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I would like to have a foofighter experience (this should be extremely rare though)… There are several reports of sightings during WWII.
Random failures mechanical, electrical, etc as mentioned. e.g. During or just after takeoff - possibility to change plane, takeoff and return to formation ASAP. Or some malfunction during final approach or landing. Another cool option is to unexpected have the airport/airstrip closed by some type catastrophic event or accident, or even be forced to divert due to bad weather (poor visibility, etc.). e.g. A cargo plane has a terrible accident during landing and puts lots of debris and flames all over the place making the runway unavailable forcing you and the rest f the squad/flights to divert or to take the taxiway instead. Secondary assignments after you’re airborne, before or after the main mission objectives. Radar should play a role on this one. ~S~ |
Thing that will be more than welcome - to see your airplane and neighbours before taking of. At present, when you find yourself in a plane, is true pain in the ass to guess where on the airfield are you.
This must be changed. Maybe allowing some view - standing on the wing - before taking the seat. |
Thank God you asked. Just a few that I would suggest:
* AI that don't just have skill levels, but also levels of aggression. Aces that fight defensively/rookies that throw themselves in. Bloody minded types that will shoot you after you bail. AI on a slider. Or rather, AI on several sliders. * Anti-aircraft box barrages as an object that can be positioned in FMB. Currently the Il-2 series has every single gun calculating the shot and eating up cpu cycles. Really dense flak is not practical. Better to have an extra option for a placeable barrage you can put down yourself. When hostile aircraft enter the area, it sparks and bangs and hurts you if you get too close. * AI crewmen that give intelligent information and can see and report on the world around them. * First-person bail outs. No more arcade jumps to third person view at the moment of greastest immersion. * Oxygen on, gunsight and reflector on. Or off for that matter. Thrill your mates with stories of the perfect bounce - that would have succeeded if only you'd taken the guns off saftey... * Bailing out. Ctrl-E key does everything for you? Meh. How about an difficulty option for complex bailouts. Different inputs required to disconnect radio, oxygen, straps, jettison the hood, get over the side and then pull the rip-chord. Try doing that when you are on fire. * Hypoxia * More than one effing radio frequency! * After Mission Reports. Lately I've modified my install of Il-2 so that the enemy-destroyed messages are removed. It is surprising what you can and can't remember after an engagement. What if your campaign victory claims are granted or rejected based on how much information you can provide in a the debriefing screen? If you know the time and location of a kill, plus other particulars, you'd stand a much better chance of being awarded a destroyed, rather than a probable. The lazy or disinterested player could have an option to bypass such a feature. A few other choice rants from the darker days of the SoW news blackout: "The Il-2 series is pretty. I have no doubt that SoW will be very pretty too. The weather will change. The AI will occaisionally sh*t their pants and the FM's will be great. And we'll all go around, doing the same things as we are doing now. Just in a more detailed environment. But really, don't you think there should be more to the future of air combat simulations than just cookie cutter dogfights and dropping a stick of bombs? Do you really just want to play the exact same pair of missions all over again for another five to ten years ? What if other mission perameters were coded in? What other options could we get? Maybe instead you'd like to pilot a Lysander for SOE. Fly over to France at zero altitude in the dead of night. Alone in the dark, you would struggle to find 'that little field' marked on your map and glide into it, engine off so as not to alert the Jerries. Perhaps you'd rather fly a Storch, evacuating wounded from the combat area. Or maybe spotting for the artillery? What if you could give directions and targeting information to ground units? What about unarmed photo recon? Take your Blenheim across to France to take photographs of the invasion barges. Photographs that the campaign generator can judge and pass you on. Coastal Command perhaps? Why not have a crew that can actually call out the sightings of distant ships and other objects and give an intelligent description of their range, type and heading? Or nightfighters with AI radar operators that can actually guide you to the kill? Wouldn't you like to try to fly a danerously overloaded Ju-52 into the icy landing strips of Stalingrad one day? Or a C-47 over the Himalayas? There has to be more to this genre than, fly to waypoint and shoot stuff down. Or fly to waypoint and drop some bombs. There has to be. :( " Some more: "It is heartening to see so many people feeling the same way about this. I just hope that Oleg and the team do too. Taking the SOE Lysander mission type as an example, certain parameters would need to be coded in to make it work convincingly. Most particularly target waypointing and ground unit AI behaviour. Imagine this: Having crossed the Channel in the dead of night, you bank and circle "that little field" that you were directed to in the briefing. The target has a rendezvous time (get there too early and the enemy ground units will arrive before your friends do). At the appointed time you get a flashlight signal from the from the ground. (Hidden Target Complete). You cut the motor and sideslip in. The game engine is designed in such a way that it can recognise just how close the player is to the rendezvous point when their aircraft rolls to a stop. When you are on the ground, the clock is ticking. Land close to the friendlies and there is not long to wait. The further you are from the landing point the longer you have to sweat it out. If the friendly units make it to your aircraft, you get the Mission Complete and you can get the hell out of there. While this is going on, you have AI enemy ground units that are smart enough to detect your presence and converge on your location. Maybe they will get there first.... Similar mission building parameters can be used for air-ambulance missions or supply drops, providing the builder can vary the duration of the stay on the ground. It is a simple enough idea, but versatile and effective. It just needs devs who care enough about it to put it into practice." Between missions: "Another aspect that would greatly benefit offline play is a kind of Renown System. Something like what is available in Silent Hunter 3, which btw gracefully managed to avoid the corny CFS3 roleplaying element. At the moment in the Il-2 series, you fly missions and get kills and rise up the ranks. But it is meaningless in any broader sense, other than whether you get to fly at the back of a formation, or whether you fly at the front. Your success or failure has no other significance. What if as a neophyte pilot in SoW your aircraft is the war-weary crate that no one else wants? What if as you gain experience and become an asset to the unit you get entrusted with a better aircraft? How would that be? What about if you rise to the rank of Flight, or even Squadron Leader? Higher rank means higher responsibility. Perhaps the amount of work you would be expected to do in between missions will become even greater. You would need to manage your pilots and personnel. Allocate your flights, request replacements, and give commendations. Instead of just gawping at the briefing screen before a mission, what if you could actually issue orders to your pilots before the mission begins? You could assign your pilots objectives, waypoints, altitude and strategies. How would that suit you? And what if you became an ace? A real experten? You would have your pick of the ground personnel. Your aircraft would be top of the line. Your renown would ensure that new aircraft and equipment would flow in. Requests for reassignment or replacements would be looked on favourably by Command. Experienced pilots would request transfers to your unit.... Honestly, am I reaching for the effing stars here??? " Still more: "I guess being a Kanone of greater rank would have bestowed some perks that would translate nicely into a flight sim. Getting priority on equipment, aircraft and the like for the unit. A well serviced personal aircraft with less chance of mechanical failure than the latest sprog's. The chance to request a transfer (and maybe even have it granted). Or the chance to poach experienced pilots from other units. Your input on a tactical level would be respected and considered before a mission... It's details like that that I support, certainly not cliched roleplaying" "What happens if you rise in rank? Will you just get a warm fuzzy feeling and just fly at the front of the group? Would a rise in rank from Staffel Kaptain up to Kommodore be completely meaningless in your SoW? How should such a promotion effect your game? How would it effect, 'the role of a pilot in WW2'? " Finally: "Working Radar Control in Online Play: You log on to an SoW server and join the game. A mission is already in progress. On the briefing map, you can see that there are plots all over the board. You select RAF and choose a Spitfire flying out of Hornchurch. The server auto-generates you the callsign Baker, Blue Three. Entering the game, you taxi out of your revetment and scramble immediately. Climbing hard, en-route for Dover you ask control for an intercept vector. You key in the commands for this (promising yourself you will get around to sorting out the voice activation system one day soon. Everybody says it's amazing). You key in: Tab> 1> 3> 2. "Hello Control> This is Baker Blue three> Requesting vector." Using voice samples similar to those in the old Il-2, the AI controller replies, "Hello Baker Blue three. Steer 160. Bandits inbound at angels zero. Range 40 miles. Over" The AI controller has appointed you a "channel" based on your location on the map. Not everybody hears the same control messages, thus avoiding clutter. A pair of Hurricanes nearby have heard this however, and change course to intercept. "Hello Baker Blue Three. This is control. Are you recieving me? Over." Ah whoops! Unlike the Il-2 series, this controller actually requires a response to communications. If you do not respond to calls he will keep calling you, before finally giving you up as lost. You key in: Tab> 1> 3> 6. "This is Baker Blue Three. Received and understood." Minutes later, speeding across the feilds of Kent, you key in a request for an update from control. "Hello Baker Blue three. Steer 160. Contact faint. Bandits at angels zero. Range 20 miles. Over" They are holding course then. Twenty miles would put them just north of New Romney... Suddenly the AI control breaks in: "Hello Baker Blue three. Bandits now heading two zero. Steer oh seven oh. Buster!" You acknowledge and open the throttle wide, swinging onto the new heading. Your heart skips a beat as two Hurricanes flash across your nose. "Hello Baker Blue three. This is control. You are right on top of them." You dip your wing. Can't see a bloody thing. No, wait...there they are! Three fast moving shapes. Darting across the town of Ashford. Rooftop height. Me110's from Erpro-210, making a run for Biggin Hill. You key in the last call - a tallyho to Control. Saftey catches off. Gunsight on. As you half roll into the dive, the gunner of the rearmost 110 is already firing...... " Well, you did ask. ;) |
I totally agree on the mechanical failures problem... as long as it fits the real issues reported by pilots and/or ground crews back then and trying to get them in the same frequency (obviously aproximately). Example: failure or misreading of the fuel gauge, inaccurate altitude readings in the instrument panel (could "spice" the trip during a bad weather/low visibility flight) but being careful not to over use those failures.
Also, secondary/oportunity targets or objectives... example: I'm a british pilot, scramebled with relatively low fuel, main mission is to intercept a few bombers with escort, and we succed or not... however, my squad is returning to base, but suddenly the radar spots a second formation incoming to the coast, my fuel is very limited by then, do I attack ot not?? is my plane in conditions to face a new attack or do I have to land for repairing/rearming?... to really make all this count, your decition should have an impact in the whole single player capaign somehow. |
What about navigation for the player flight that doesn't require following a waypoint path directly. The player flight follows a heading or ADF beacon and enters a waypoint area, which is set for size in mission builder. Allow for Aircraft scrambles with no briefings. Radio comms give directions, altitude, and expected enemy contact.
The player will have to maintain a better feel for where he is going by heading, landmarks and/or homing signals. Radio comms for mission changes on the fly. The AI follows waypoints, and has alternative waypoint options that can be changed by triggers. It is so not for real following waypoints. I'd be willing to bet most players do just like I do. They 8x to action areas. Does it make any sense to just ride along for 30 minutes looking at a computer screen or however long it takes from waypoint to waypoint to arrive at the action area? If the waypoint track has got to be followed in some cases then allow for both methods, for player only. |
On ground:
Spawning: It would be great if you could e.g. choose the position where you spawn either from fixed options or freely in a given area. This would also add a lot to squadron activities and limit the occasions where teammates have to taxi 10 minutes to coordinate a teamstart. Airfield Activities: Another good point already mentioned is airfield activities. I wouldn't even go as far as interaction with ground-crews, but e.g. fueltrucks or vehicles being spawned randomly around the airfield when the mission starts. That would also make raids on airfields a lot more interesting. TASKS: More decent briefing. E.g. by assigning different tasks. Simple example: Teamgame, each with groundtargets available: Choose between Task Strike, Escort, CAP or FreeHunting. You could even have specific briefings and loadouts per task. If this would also be listed e.g. in score-screen, it would be much easier to coordinate even without sophisticated c3. Tower communications would also be nice, e.g. informing about wind- and general weather conditions and takeoff-direction. In flight: C3: Ground c3 by not only reporting enemy planes located by spotters or radar, but also from groundunits unter attack and leading flights to corresponding areas. Even if not realistic, it could work like this: Unit A is under attack, c3 calls out location and asks who will assist (not all players fly in teams or squadrons, so IMHO you have to account for this at least online) - Then pilots have the choice to either accept the mission or continue with what they are doing. As with the example with Tasks above, you could also integrate this and change tasks inflight. More communication especially with gunners on multicrewed bombers, giving position, number and types of attacking aircraft. Playable ATC/c3 Ingame communications only with Push-To-Transmit. Really, really, needed. I don't want to hear pilots barking at their wifes or sneezing or eating. It does more than killing immersion... And of course my all-time-favourites: Killmarkers and individual markings ;) Well, just a few ideas ;) |
Unusual but distinctly BoB AI behavior, such as a group of Me110's that adopt a defensive ring when attacked.
Blenheim formations that bunch together and drop down to wavetop height when engaged. Crew members that can be seen to be struggling to escape or even stuck in the hatch of doomed aircraft. Parachutes that don't open. Friendly fire. Both on the ground and in the air. Aircraft that will abort from a formation. Radios or even oxygen that can be knocked out. Bombers with one wheel dangling as the hydraulics are shot away Very rare - Bombers that drop their wheels in surrender and can be guided back to your base. |
Static aircraft avilable in FMB with extra visual options:
Skin selection Cowlings on/ cowlings off Ground crew in attendance No ground crew Being fueled Being armed Destroyed 1, 2, 3. Cannibalised for parts/abandoned |
Unique FMB triggers. You could have one that triggers a .wav sample when you fly through it. You could have a folder full of user-made samples that you could instruct the trigger to generate on command. Everything from ground control, crew intercom (banter, oxygen checks, navigation etc) or mission instructions.
Bomb aimers that give you the "left, left... steady" routine on the bomb run. Gunners or pilots of other aircraft that wave or gesture when you form up really close |
In multicrewed bombers ability for crew to man other guns where applicable, if the original gunner was incapacitated or killed.
Need to reload gunners MGs where applicable. Ability to switch to ouside view on own aircraft, even on cockpit restricted areas, as long as the plane is on the ground (e.g. to see your skin in action, or as an easy method to walk around the plane after the mission, if it is not implemented in 1st or 3rd person mode.) |
Sudden engine failures even without taking any damage...
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More along the line of "did I just see that"...OK how bout this, you set her down in a field in enemy territory. You notice the farmer leaving the barn carring a pitch fork as he scurries to the house.:o
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Hello Luthier!
Like I said earlier the changing weather is an inexhaustible source of aggravating events during missions. It may be interesting to combine this with some instrument failures especially altimeter and compass...A great many A/C of all nationalities met their fate because they did not know where they were, or how high they were, because of failure or heavy icing and they finished their careers on high ground or power cables (think Helmut Lent, Werner Mölders and so many others...). It did not really matter if they were rookies or aces... About interesting events: - during a patrol set an unsuspecting trainer coming out of nowhere in the middle of the flight at same altitude (works well with an unsuspecting enemy A/C) - bad weather attack (again) meet barrage balloons...Remember the Ju 88 who pancaked on a balloon...and made it to base (its pilot would become one of the bomber aces) - attack on heavy railway gun tracks in the Pas de Calais area (was happening during all BoB length, usually using Bleinheims) - recce flight on obscure forward airfield being setup somewhere in North of France (where is the damn field? lot of examples) - help Bleinheims dealing with the field you discovered the day before - If DYNAMO operation at Dunkerque is allowed time-wise, protecting the ground troops during evacuation - Game in Game: in charge of testing an A/C with a certain problem: identify properly the problem, bring back the A/C without crashing... - other game: forcing a Bf 109 to land/go to sea without firing one shot - one day the bad weather during the night has reduced your potential take-off run to 300 yards and the enemy is coming at you...meet him and come back on the same 300 yards. - these damn He-115 are minelaying again: find them and deal with them (at night, obviously) - Resistance informs us that one high ranking officer of the Luftwaffe is intending to visit coastal airfields with its personal Bf 108 unescorted at a certain hour near a certain place: try to find him before his subordinates find you with their Bf 109... This what comes to my mind for now... JVM |
For me, personally, I'd say don't bother.
The cool things happen by random chance, if it's scripted it's not cool. Give the AI some realistic options and just by chance, occasionally, they will combine those options in unexpected ways. |
Lovely thread Luthier!
If i understood you, here are my suggestions; The targeting system in Il-2 it´s great but when you buil 500 mission it´s a lil bit repetitive. We need more "targets" IE: - targeteable airfields , whit also targeteable components, like fuel depot (whith its own marker) the runway itself, service buildings, bomb and ammo bunkers, AA fire control units, barraks etc..the posibilities are multiples. The final status of an airbase could be an average of its components status. Theres no need for modelling ground crews. for example a raid hit hardly the airfield, destroying the mechanics barracks, so the af will have a lower repair rate. Could be supply convoys that change that status, in general or particular aspects. -The same for other targets, like Industries, radar stations, docks, etc...In Il-2 to "damage" a factory we need tu put markers inside. It would be great a kind of industrial damage marker, that decrease the factory output. -rescue mision targets (pilots, resistance members, etc..) -Triggers - Real recce missions, whit a airborne camera in the plane, something like the bombsight view, I don´t know how could it be done. - Mine layers ! - cargo convoys whit real cargo, like trains, ships, trucks, etc.. whit stuff like these, Bob still remains a fligth sim, but with more ground interaction. Thanks! |
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I almost forgot, all Feathered_IV suggestions are wonderfull!
Bomb aimers directing the fligth rocks! nigthfighters whit radar operators! Lysander missions, air supply whit real cargo, I.E to keep operative and airfield, you need to land 4 transports, or 75% of its cargo. Hidden targets, like killing or capturing an high rank officer in ground or in air, whit a bonus effect in moral or airfield status or something. It could make rescue misiion for both sides, the first in rescuingave a few more ideas. Later I´ll post it. By the way is this what you asked Luthier? |
Historically correct sounding voices in the recordings with attention to appropriate tones of voice, attitudes, accents and even RAF slang.
http://natureonline.com/37/56-ap4-glossary.html Historically correct background music. Pictures, recordings of historical figures (Churchill, Hitler etc.) and events taking place at the time so as to create the bigger picture. Newsreel or radio broadcast format simulated perhaps. |
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About the suggestions, I have an interesting idea, but it would only work properly if there's a way to set a one in a million probability of this happening. Setting real human-like actions to the AI. People ofter only worry with tactics, and they forget the respect that airmen had between them. In a less rare (but still much unusual) scenario, enemy aircraft ceasing the attack when noticing their target is in serious trouble, and attackign would be acting cowardly. In a very rare case, the airman from the opposing side could even approach the aircraft, wave wings, or maybe doing some hand signals, and break away. And now, adding the one in a million chance I've mentioned, facts like escorting them to safety, as happened with Rudorffer twice, once escorting, and once being escorted. I'm not aware of all the limitations of the engine, so I don't know if this is anything close to being possible, but these are features that would give a much more human feel to the simulator. |
Feathered and others have some excellent ideas here! And for the most part, it should not require much more coding and resources.
Just look at how much more fun FSX was with the introduction of missions, and all they did was throw a bunch of voice recordings over some scripts and triggers. Very little custom animations were required, just this vehicles goes here and that plane flies there kind of thing. A large part of the immersion comes from what we hear over the radio. As others have said, setting up challenges that were unique to the Battle of Britain and placing more emphasis on communicating with control would make a huge difference. The player should feel very distinctly that this is 1940 Britain, not any other theatre. The situation is desperate, the weather is crap, and invasion is a very real possibility! Feathered's account of "Working Radar Control in Online Play:" makes my hair stand up. Somehow the sharp, concise exchanges with radar control makes things much more exciting (at least it did in Battle of Britain movie 1969). Imagine trying to process all this information coming over the radio while orienting yourself in the clouds, scanning for enemies and dealing with an unreliable engine. Peoples ideas here for non combat missions are excellent too. Having the odd recon mission between interception sorties will help mix things up. |
Triggers, Triggers, Triggers
Option to turn off instant Refly Refuel, Rearm, Repair with an option for user defined turnaround times Lively Airfields...I'd hoped for ground crew, but I understand your limits at this time You could however have refuel trucks and equipment driven to meet you at the turnaround hard stand for refueling and rearming after landing and taxiing to a dispersal point. Let say we hit a formation of bombers over Manston that are heading to London. I would like to land at Manston rearm and refuel and hit the same bomber group heading home after their mission. Do you plan on ground crew in some future addon in the series? A very acurate ingame map for navigation using the mark 1 eyeball. An Off-line 24/7 campaign that you can keep running, fast forward, or pause. Jumping into any flight at any time or just taking off from any airfield with or without wingman to do your own thing. An On-line 24/7 campaign where the AI are performing normal attack and defend BOB missions were players could jump into any AI aircraft at any time. Or take off alone or in groups for frejag and jabo missions with triggers to intercept if detected. The only real difference between the Off-line On-line campaigns is user defined options and server defined options, and the amount of players that can join. |
How about cut scenes for when you are shot down, crash, die, promoted, earn medals, instead of a text just saying what happens.
Rescued - scenes showing you being picked up by destroyer, rescue dingy, float plane, or if you do not go for a swim walking back to base, hitching a ride etc. Captured - shows your pilot being escorted away to a POW camp, picked up at sea, being held at gun point by a angry farmer etc. MIA- lost at sea scene showing you floating away never to be found, maybe with a search and rescue team almost finding you but turning away too early. Death - military funeral scene, telegram notice being delivered to family, etc. Crash at airfield - fire trucks, ambulance, other vehicles and personnel running to your plane to rescue you. Wounded pilot landing - ambulance racing to your aircraft as you pull off the runway etc. |
Disable superhuman pilots turning time and time at semi-high G's with no vision damage, how time could fly one pilot (no g-wear)at 3-4 G's?
S! |
Effects of icing/freezing on instruments and flight characteristics.
Secondary explosions after shooting at ground-targets. Nice effects for shattering glass or canopy e.g. by influencing vision. Partially blocked controls. Jams depending on maneuver and conditions. Fire causes further damage not only by exploding a tank, but e.g. by burning elevator and rudder if located directly behind the fire. BTW: In B-17 II flying through dense FlaK caused a thrilling sound, when the plane collided with a non-lethal shrapnel e.g. falling back to the ground. That increase immersion vastly. IIRC the smoke from the FlaKpuffs also left some dirt on the glass. |
Sweet
That's great asking for ideas here . . .
heinkill at sim hq said the maps were 1:1 a previous poster mentioned this also . . . some way to auto speed (and lot run out of fuel like in IL-2) past the monotonous times to the action. Or a 8th AF bomber flight, it said they were up there for hours not seeing anything . While it would be cool for ultra realism, I don't have several hours to fly across the channel and bomb my target if I wanted to play the Luftwaffe bomber role. mission variety . . . your pilot is ordered go with special forces to capture their new fighter plane (while you don't see a movie or what not) you spawn inside an enemy plane, with / without a fire fight going on around you You take off and then you have to get back to home, avoid enemy fighters and even your own fighter. Some charity asked someoone in your squad to over fly and do some flight manuevers over an orphanage and somehow your name came up. Alot of it would be to remove the static / independent of the sim. Say for example your unit is not the only one operating in that area . A german bf 109 pilot, say if running out of fuel and having to return early, would see the german air sea rescue, the sea plane, the escorts flying about. Or if you over fly a an enemy airfield in the early morning and no flak, but few minutes later, they launch fighters to intercept you. On joining up, the formation is missing a squadron or has too many etc On the way home, you get remaining pieces of other flights (planes) rejoining up your group for added protection. You squadmates have different personalities. Some are overly aggressive, some are very calculating. SOmetimes one will say something, "Oh S***" before you roll in to attack enemy fighters. Sometimes the funny one will make a quick joke or tell quick story and leader has to tell them to shut up. Mechanical . . . Sometimes you take off and you're leaking oil or something and your squad leader tells you to go home. An Option for refly ONLY if you: crashed, landed, or bailed out, or pilot is dead or too injuired to fly. Ground control interaction would be nice. Enemy does more actions than just engage you. AI makes mistakes. Some may aggressively engage, or sometimes they may run, or do something half hearted, and run or then go full intent to kill you. Or they run and return back with some friends etc Ground targets like trucks drive off the road and disperse, or if one end of the bridge was just bombed they try to get off of it, or go the long way instead of lining up before the bridge. There is a furball above your airfield and you decide to take off (single player only LOL) AAA ranges you (starts by being far off, then closer and closer). Radios . . . The site below has lot of information http://www.virtualpilots.fi/hist/WW2...a2English.html (not the article that had the radio) I remember reading some of the article of finn pilots and they had where the radios sometimes picked up not just your transmissions but others. They would hear the other Finnish squadrons operating, the Russians ordering their crews, and sometimes the Germans in idle talk . . . It'd be cool to get radio interference in the form of random stuff from the otherside (not exactly from your opponents you are fighting with but other squads operating in that area). Random stuff Say you read the briefing ... usual combat patrol, as you're about to engine start, the staff / captain runs up to you, and you get NEW briefing on a totally different target, another base is being bothered and you need to go there with your squad and provide fighter cover. Or you're cleared for take off but have to wait (sometimes ) while a damaged spit comes in for a landing or your hot headed "friend" jumps ahead and takes off. Women. The civilian woman with the blown skirts would be a good selling point for the game LOL if you buzzed by with your Spit. It'd be cool to hear them as ground controls . . . Maybe not for BOB, but when you guys get to VVS . . . - Also it would be cool for say if you were a german pilot and fighting against a VVS pilot, you zipped close by on a nose 2 nose pass, and it was Lilya Litvyak! VVS had the options for 586th Fighter Regiment Or for US, you run into a flight and its WASPS chatting . .. |
To whom it may concern,
Oleg has already mentioned this, but I really was interested in the idea of being able to fly rescue missions with a sea plane. Or, after bailing out being in the first person, and waiting to be rescued by a sea plane. Also along those lines of being able to bail out in the first person, it would be interesting, I think to many, to walk around until captured would be interesting. I don't think a tremendous amount of animation is necessary for this to be an interesting feature. I think many would be satisfied to just have the view, and very rudimentary controls left, right etc. No shooter animation needed, just another vantage point. Whether or not the sea planes or first person bailing out is in the release, could be something for the future. |
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And another thing would be nice, random trigger. For example you fly to a certain area the trigger is used and here comes the random trigger, you have stationed 3 planes near the area where the player is, but the random trigger says wich one is spawned, not all just one and all of the 3 can have different planes, skill, altitude etc. With this randomisation the same simple mission is actually three missions in one. -CH- |
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...0976189633970#
Cannon ammunition in fw190 wings being "ignited" p51 50 cal fire. Look at some of this footage. I think catastrophic failures like these with realistic probability of occuring would be absolutely heart racing when they do happen. Combine that with a nasty boom and shockwave through your "buttkicker" feedback mounted to your flight seat - woo hoo! You can just about feel the intensity of some of those violent explosions. I think it is currently modelled in IL2 but the wing just kinda pops off - no satisfaction. Surely the fw190 wasn't the only plane this occurred on. What about planes carrying bombs? Did any catastrophic events occasionally occur there? Also, I second the previous poster who mentioned the running into flocks of birds - that would be realistic and intense. |
Oh, and VERY SIMPLE commands by manouvers. I mean, i.e. reaction on friendly fire. You sweep your wings and then see your friend leveling with you, taking hand to canopy and flying away. It would be very nice to see
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I think that Feathered_IV has the answer to what would make SOW stand out and be a rewarding gaming experience...please concider his points
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Well, considering the initial wish:
This is what I always felt was important for SP-experience: It's an absolute immersion killer, if you can be sure you're alone in the sky, maybe one other friendly squad and 1-4 enemy squads, maybe, but groundtargets only at your base and in your targetarea. In games like Falcon, however, you have a feeling of being part of an actual war going on. There are numerous other plans and groups acting together, bombing targets, capping, etc. Also the enemy territory is never empty. You see convoys heading for the front, ships on the sea, and literally hundreds of units fighting on the ground along the fence-line. It makes a huge difference, e.g. when just flying from Germany to England staring at the sea below and actually seeing or even reporting shipping and watch other units attack those. Maybe even submarines or speedboats nearby. On the british side, what about squadrons being on alert. When your group runs into trouble, you can call for assistance. In SilentHunter this also combines with being witness of important battles or operations. That's also definitely great for immersion. As part of that, the most thrilling and intense moments I had, were when going into combat, taking of or enroute to the fence-line and you see other planes returning, smoking, engines out, attempting belly-landings, etc. Also damages to groundunits, equipment and buildings staying that way over missions. |
Three ideas:
-a bit more AI added to ships. If they notice a bomb/torpedo attack they could do some evasive manouvres, instead of staying on the path planned in Mission Builder. Like here: http://users.swing.be/navbat/edito/navires/yamato2.jpg -plane damage modeling effect not in IL2: in some planes when getting enough damage, the landing gear would go to landing position while flying and slow down the plane -add a small explosion object to mission builder. Person making a mission could place such object inside buildings, static ships, fuel trucks etc. When it is hit during game, it would produce an explosion. The strength could be set in mission builder. This way you could simulate things like ground attack hitting an ammo dump, fuel truck etc. Player couldn't see this effect in advance, because the object would be hidden inside bigger objects. |
Ilya, simply the best thing I can imagine, is to be in a virtual world that is believable, meaning a living breathing environment at the airfield, and even on the rest of the map.
The smallest sign of life on the map would be a huge plus. What if we were flying over the countryside in France and occasionally see some people walking around, especially over a target, or even chickens, cows, birds. These are things you really don't need in a combat flight sim, but if you did find a way to put these things in, it would give a "holy sh**, did that just happen" kind of feeling. What we have now are targets that are devoid of life. Just a bunch of objects we can destroy with some 3d gunners that really don't add life to the environment. How about bridges and other objects that actually collapse when destroyed, not just a destroyed version versus an undestroyed version of the same object. When I blow up a bridge, I want to watch that sucker fall into the water. When I blow up a tank, I want to see the turret pop off sometimes. When I blow up a car or truck, I want to see it flip over on occasion. What we have now are vehicles and trains that all blow up the same way. There needs to be some surprises when you blow stuff up. |
I think a nice idea might be to have some kind of dialoge with your mechanic ie.As your aircraft gets some flying hours up, you might notice your engine supercharger needs tunning or motor might be running a little rough or engine hoses and pipes wearing out.Also the availability of different grade octane fuels or even cotaminated fuels.Or in other situations your mechanic might be not so experienced and makes mistakes!In other words i suppose a serious ground check before flying, also a ground gun convergance target would be cool..
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Feathered's ideas are great, but I won't expect them in the first iteration of the release. Maybe after some patches. Remember, the most important and foremost thing is basic codework, then everything else falls into place.
Still, I hope to see them! I like the idea of first person bail out, but I think (but I have no clue really) that this will take too much time/resources. It would be simpler to just use a cut scene rather than modeling the character doing all this stuff. I think cutscenes could be used in the example where someone requested driving a kubelwagen to their plane. I like the idea of modeling hypoxia, and hopefully better modeling of becoming wounded. Blood does not need to be animated, but maybe, more blurry vision rather than red out, delay/ difficulty in the movement of your head. AI that makes friendly fire is a great idea that I hope to see, especially for rookie pilots. AI that can't see through their plane/clouds/into the sun. Also would be great if when AI was looking at his wingman to his right in a close formation, he might not see you coming from his left, even if it's in his normal field of view. I hope there will be angular momentum modeled to some extent. If a bomber loses a wing, it will slowly lurch over and fall, not just instantly tumble like a leaf in the wind. Also if the planes do start to spin quickly, some G induced break up. On the idea of inertia, 'heaviness' of moving a machine gun around by the player: mouse movements dampened/delayed making aiming more difficult/realistic. But above all: AI, DM, and FM. The nice animations can follow later when there's time and when there is a place in the engine. |
Missions by their very nature are repetitive; brief, take off, fly to wp1, 2, 3, 4, action, land, debrief.
As stated what changes this are triggers, events etc so you can always through in different possibilities and variations on the mission by adding in % probably factors. Allowing mission triggers to control weather changes (if possible in the weather engine), failures, events by flying into different patrol zones that you weren’t briefed to. Of course we do not know what mission tools are available for SoW so it can be difficult to provide some ideas that may be feasible. However single player missions that have dynamic components can really provide some interesting missions that have a brief, but will be different for say… at least 4 times. The method of brief and debriefs will be interesting to see what happens in this space (personally would love to see a mission planning components with the ability to print the map out with the waypoints drawn out etc etc). |
Great thread! I've read some great and interesting suggestions.
I can think of some things however its hard to determine whether these would be scripted/triggered events vs. things that could happen dynamically. Anyway, some preliminary thoughts... -How about a friendly pilot who goes absolutely crazy or loses his nerve? -How about a friendly pilot who defects to the enemy? -How about a friendly pilot crashing on take off? I guess the above would have to be relayed somehow through radio comms or else people would blame this stuff on flaky AI. -How about blowing out a tire and inducing a ground loop on takeoff or landing? I guess this could be more related to the DM than a scripted event. -I think seeing blood splatter on the inside of the cockpit after being injured could be shocking. Maybe you could even bleed out or lose consciousness. -Perhaps you could bail out and strike your plane, killing or injuring you. ________ Ship Sale |
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well, thanks for asking:
- returning smoking bomber/recon plane over the Channel coming from the opposite direction, maybe escorted by few fighters - seeing a returning smoking fighter coming home, while waiting for takeoff - being jumped by a pair of fighters at unexpected locations where you feel secure otherwise - seeing few aircraft battle over your field while takeoff, your side is in advantage - seeing convoy of ships being attacked by stukas or coast artillery - german speedboat formation engaging ships - smoking/burning damaged ship, leaking oil maybe, sailors in lifeboats - floatplanes operating, rescue operation in progress, pilots in water - huge smoke columns in the distance, distant artillery fire - trafic on the roads being attacked - fishing boats operating and being attacked - barrage balloon being hit by pair of fighters - sudden starfing attacks out of nowhere - enemy plane hitting ground while escaping in panic at low alt (for rookie pilots) - enemy aircraft scrambling from airfields when attacked - groups of horses/cows/sheep near farms/rural areas You need very visible/oblivious things which capture the players attention imho smaller details remain ofter unrecognized by the user. |
Hi Luthier,
Another thing I've said before in another thread, but just to try to keep it always present, is the score system in multiplayer games (sorry to get in MP matters here but it looks appropiate). To avoid whining online and to maintain the team spirit, kills should be scored by all the planes who HIT an enemy plane, I don't know how hard could this be to encode but I hope is something achievable within the time frame you guys have. In IL2 if you kill an smoking plane you're not a good team player, you're a shoulder shooter or "kill stealer" and I have to admit sometimes I understand why the hard feelings... it is very annoying to see someone else rewarded for YOUR efforts while you're left with just 0 points. So it would be great to be able to share kills. ;) |
Hi Luthier,
I think Feuerfalke hit the nail on the head: "It's an absolute immersion killer if you can be sure you're alone in the sky, maybe one other friendly squad and 1-4 enemy squads, maybe, but groundtargets only at your base and in your targetarea.Building on this - would it be possible to code a "randomise" function (I'm thinking of something similar to DGen where you could set levels of random friendly and enemy flights / ground activity, but much more powerful). The difficulty lies in breaking out of the 'scripted' element of the missions - in real life you could NEVER be sure that intelligence / briefings were correct. So, how about REALLY screwing up the predictability of a mission by deliberately including the possibility (through the "randomise"function above) that what you actually experience flying the mission bears little or no resemblance to the briefing? I can already hear the protests so let me try to explain: In a proportion of the missions the randomised elements would completely overwhelm the scripted/briefed elements - eg you are expecting / briefed to fly a fighter-bomber mission over enemy territory - what you actually experience is being bounced shortly after take-off by enemy fighters. But here's the key - this happens on a random probabilistic basis (9 times out of 10 it won't occur. Other things will. Maybe you make the target and drop your bombs as planned) I understand this has the potential to completely screw up BALANCE - so it would probably have to be switchable by players, but it definitely provides the possiblity to experience the unexpected (at the expense of truly 'balanced' missions) For some possible examples of randomised occurences I quote from vpmedia's post: returning smoking bomber/recon plane over the Channel coming from the opposite direction, maybe escorted by few fightersAlong the same lines I'd add: on your way to your mission you see a damaged friendly bomber coming home low under attack from enemy fighters. What do you do? Try to help or press on as per your briefing? |
Someone mentioned this earlier but I really like this idea, being selected to test pilot new variants as they come online. I also like the idea of a group flying to another field to pick up some new planes or even the new variant your squadron is moving to, maybe even get jumped or diverted while on this delivery mission. I know animations have to be kept to a minimum but I would love to see the occasional enemy pilot waving his fist at you, or some of the displays of chivalry you hear about, like if the enemy pilot runs out of ammo before downing you, he'll pull alongside and waggle his wings and salute, this would have to be rare of course or it will loose it's significance.
I would also like to see if a pilot bails out in front of you just the wrong way he can hit and damage your AC. Maybe on long bomber runs some member of the crew will tell a joke to break the tension, etc. |
-An interresting mission could be the calibration of radars, would require a lot of interaction with the ground control, but I understood that this interaction was already in the code. Maybe once in a campaign ?
-When downing an opponent over the sea, we could be able to tell the position of the enemy pilot to the ground control, so they send a rescue plane / boat. Idem for a wingman, if we see him under a chute. Maybe the player should have a feedback on his action : if the pilot was on his squadron, the simple fact that he is still here will be fine, but if it's an enemy pilot, maybe this enemy pilot could give the player his decorations, or something like that (in ROF, the player have a little gathering of objects he got during his missions : decorations, bits of planes, letters, etc). -Even if you don't want to implement random failures in the player's aircraft, it could be interesting to fake them for his IA wingmen. For ex., your flight of 6 aircrafts takes off to intercept an enemy raid on your base, and one of your IA wingmen leaves the formation, while saying on the comms "Oil pressure down, I have to abort the mission". |
I think VPmedia had a really good point, regarding, maybe having to wait on takeoff while a damaged fighter or bomber is landing, and listening to some "disturbing" radio chatter between injured pilot and ground control.
This could really put people in the right mood, before heading up to engage a bomber stream etc. |
Some excellent ideas all around but without meaning to offend anyone, Feathered takes the cake as it seems he's been thinking a lot about it.
I would really like to sometime see similar things in SoW, especially non-combat missions or missions with unarmed aircraft. If i'm reading and deciphering Oleg's posts right, these guys are building an engine to handle everything in the sim at a centralized level, so most of what you have in singleplayer you could possibly have it in MP as well. If the engine is as moddable as they are hinting it is, then we could have different campaign layers to interact with, all of which would be possible to enable/disable. Do you just want to fly around and shoot things? Good, because you can. Do you want to read intelligence reports on your or the enemy industrial output and strategic priorities, then plan the sorties yourself? Fine again, you can do that too. Imagine that we're 2 years in the future, flying an expansion of SoW and we have something like this... According to the latest orders, we need to switch our attention to the enemy's oil production and metal works. To that end, we need to identify major targets in the Ruhr. We need accurate information about target layout and possible defences. To that end and since you've recently been promoted to squadron leader and you want to lead by example, you're taking a photo recon mosquito this morning. Taking off and climbing early before the sun has even risen, you are thinking about how to do this. Do you fly under the radar and make a low-level run, or climb really high for a better shot of the target and hope your altitude and speed will be enough to escape any interceptors the enemy radars will throw at you? You decide to come in high and get some good photos of the target, flak and fighters be damned. This proves to be a good choice, as on your way out there is a small fleet of German torpedo boats attacking some friendly ships. If you were low they could probably spot and report you, but you're too high for them. If you can see them however, you can report them and let Coastal Command vector someone to their vicinity to dispatch them. Nobody sees anyone though, so you both go about your business. Crossing into Holland you check your navigation, you don't want to fly too close to any enemy airbases so your flight plan is zig-zagging between them. Radar will pick you up at some point of course, but why make your job harder? Nearing the Ruhr valley you make for the target. By this point it's almost certain that they know about you and your heading. Yep, just your luck, there's 4 little specks in the horizon, still below you but climbing hard. Wait, what is that? God, it seems like a dozen or so aircraft, maybe it's time to abort the mission. Firewalling the throttles you start climbing again, doing your best to keep high but not above the start of the contrail forming layer, something that will definitely give away your position for miles around (mig alley anyone? contrail formation height was a briefed item in that sim). Suddenly, you see another contrail off in the distance and then another and they gradually multiply. Your heart stops racing as you realize that the specks you saw, now marginally identifiable as 109s, are not after you but some 8th AF heavies that are heading out on a raid of their own. They appear to have been engaged already, as some are streaming black smoke. You wish the heavies luck and swing around to avoid the 109s, just as you see 8 specks break away from the rear of the friendly formation and their contrails moving towards the 109s at a considerably faster rate. Yep, these must be the P47 escorts. This is definitely not your fight. After a quarter of an hour you are over your briefed target, you snap your photos and make for home. You can see some activity in close-by airfields, dust is being kicked up by engine starts, so you assume they are now after you as well. Some 109s are returning with battle damage after their scrap with the 47s and some new ones are taking off, all in all there's a lot of activity going on and you need to slip by undetected. Firewalling the throttles again, you turn away from your briefed heading for a few minutes. Then, you go into a steep dive right down to the weeds. You are now under the radar and they should be looking at the wrong heading. Turning 90 degrees towards your real heading and having the extra speed from the long dive, you should be able to put quite a distance between your real position and the one they estimate... One and a half hour later you are back at the base. In the evening your photos have been analyzed and the strike planned for the target. You take a look at the suggested flight plan and alter a few things, then distribute it to the squadron. The next evening, you strap into a mosquito with target marker flares and set out to guide the squad to a night raid on the target. As you cross the north sea, you are briefed about contacts, possibly enemy. These Ju88s are at it again... Wall of text, i know, but sometimes it's better to tell a story than go all technical, as FeatheredIV demonstrated ;) Just one final word for all this to work we're going to need a lot of dynamic triggers. We can't expect to have all this running on a current day PC, but it can run in the background and spawn/despawn accordingly, as the player nears or moves away from the items in question. Just my 2 cents. |
I still go back to bailing out...
I think it should be a pretty violent thing, which IL2 didn't quite capture... Maybe pilots should tumble a bit after coming out of their plane instead of the sky-diver's 4-point fall from IL-2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oUjveURQaFw#t=0m25s I feel a bit crass relating this to real life, but here's actual guncam footage of pilots bailing out during the war: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTAiatDAaWI Maybe your own bail out could be the same way. There won't be a physical body in the cockpit, but your view could mimic your escape with pulling back the canopy, turning, 'leaping out', and tumbling away from the plane... Maybe the g-forces on the plane could limit your escape... If it's too violent, you aren't getting out at all (or it might just take longer). |
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One thing I'd like to see is times where mission breifings aren't all that they could be. Instead of "Find a train in this location", it's "Find something to blow up", or "we *think* an attack is coming, better take off just in case."
Also, times where maybe you've done your patrol, you're about to land back at base, and the radar stations pick up an incoming attack. No time to land, rearm, refuel, so you have to turn right around and engage the new formation. Also, as mentioned earlier: Other engagements happening while we are flying. That's one thing that kills IL2 single player for me. No other planes, no other ships, no ground targest beyond flak...It isn't war so much as jousting. This could result in some interesting situations, like some of your escort fighters diverting to intercept an enemy bomber formation that has been spotted. |
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You know of course, that you can create a mission as busy as you would like? |
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Good call Ilya - a few have called up systems failures but there are some subtle ones that could add atmosphere, here are some suggestions:
1. An unexpected noise - something starts to clatter in the back of the cockpit, you cant make out what it might be... just makes you nervous, need to go through a systems / control check again. 2. Static over radio - can still hear but it's not clear, adds frustration to the heat of battle. 3. Morale failure, your wingman calls an engine failure and proceeds to RTB, do you let him go and proceed alone, or do you see him back to base? 4. Fatigue, your wingman falls asleep behind the stick - you have to wake him up through frantic radio calls. |
Thanks for asking, Ilya. My thoughts are that a big ol' dose of the unexpected is always good- missions that don't go as briefed; changing conditions that demand a DECISION by the pilot (with the attendant consequences), finding that the 20 109's you just went out to intercept are 50! That sort of thing. And I wouldn't worry about making such events play-balanced- David vs Goliath is very interesting!
Other things that would be interesting: As you taxi in or out, a flight of (whatever) comes in low and fast, makes a snappy break and comes round to land; A training aircraft blundering into a dogfight; CAPing your downed comrade in his raft, as you try and cover the rescue boat or plane so that they can make the rescue before the other side can capture him. A bomber intercept with hundreds of aircraft in a very small volume just HAS to be exciting! With tracers, collisions, explosions, smoke and debris flying around it makes for an incomparable picture. But, the one thing that keeps coming back to me is that you guys just HAVE to leverage the weather abilities of your new engine. Taking off into a fog, breaking out into a brilliant sky above, or having to shoot a GCI approach to land after combat, possibly damaged, possibly in formation. Or shutting down your plane to see the first snow starting to fall- gentle and delicate after the stress of combat. Or trying to beat a thunderstorm to the field. And having the weather worsen during a mission. One scenario that would be cool would be a bomber intercept in the midst of rapidly growing thunderstorms. Around the clouds and through the valleys between, lightning, turbulence and heavy rain when you inadvertantly penetrate a cell, popping out of a cloud to find yourself point blank with an enemy formation. That would be awesome! How about an airshow mode? Fast-forward from the war to modern times and have the games' aircraft all staged for the greatest airshow ever. Or a setup for a spot landing contest? There's so much that could be done. Thanks again for asking our opinions! I can't wait to see what the finished product will be! |
One idea: I imagine pilot's would not have the same plane for every flight. It would be nice if a damaged plane is returned you get another on the field which may have different weathering/performance issues. The damaged plane could appear in a hangar for repairs. If during a mission only a few non-damaging bullet holes are made that these remain for the next mission or two, or are patched in some way. It would also be nice to see that in a flight, the numbers are not totally in order. Ex, in a flight in IL-2 all aircraft are marked 1, 2, 3, 4 and fly in that order. If one has MatManager, then you can have a flight numbered 5,2,9,3, etc. For Bob, maybe the change in letters: ex. FH G, FH L, FH A, FH, Y.
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I think there are a lot of 'Holy sh..' moments in ground strafing...
Watching Youtube, usually when strafing ground targets you'll see some smoke or maybe fire, but every now and then, you'll get a 'HOOOOLLLYYY SHHHIIII' gigantic fireball and shockwave and see the pilot frantically yanking back and away from the towering inferno: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3t8nlIaQJaI http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKomzCUZZDw There're tons of stories too of pilots clipping trees and getting branches stuck in their wings, knocking off chimneys, sawing off the last half of their propellers from flying too low, and even flying through and out of those huge fireballs. If Storm of War allowed that kind of stuff, I bet you'd hear all sorts of 'I can't believe I made it out of that!' stories. :) |
And you could make real-time bail outs. I mean when Heinkel is being shot down on 3000ft it's almost impossible that every crew member will bail out in the time. It would be very violent, but reallistic view, if you see Heinkel shot down by you and only 2-3 men bailed out.
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My holy sh%$ list!
Well, i will give you my personal list, even if some of them wouldn't be needed in Bob because of the scenario.
1) Firefighters. See firefighters trucks throwing water to aircrafts, hangar, or what ever, that is burning. See it when you will take off from an airfield that was recently attacked. Or see it when you land on an airfield that just been atacked. 2) Have to use aircraft that are partially damaged (for example on a mission after being your airbase attacked), or even have some instruments missing because you don't have spare parts. 3) See trucks or tanks cross rivers in open field, in areas where the depth allow it. 4) Seeing "movile bridges". I don't know the term in english, i'm referring to armored vehicles that are modified to carry a folding bridge. And see them actually working, with tanks and vehicle passing over them after it defolded its "bridge". My apologies for not being clear here, i don't know how to explain it well in english. 5) Ugly one! Have malfunctioning bombs. You drop a bomb and it doesn't explode. Its very realistic, but nobody wants it to happen to him :D. 6) Minefields: Have minefields where if you have infantery and or vehicles and tanks, you see the explosions and destruction cause by the mines. 7) Power generators. You destroy one with bombs or rockets, and lights turn off. Or something else stop working, like a radar or radio station for example. 8) Vehicles moving at night with ligths, and turn them off when they hear an aircraft near by (vehicles near the combat front), or are attacked by one (vehicles that are in areas that are unlikable to be attacked by an aircraft). Can't be sure how realistic would this be, don't know if troops vehicles or civilian vehicles traveled with lights on during night when they are away from the front. Movies are not a accurate source of information :D 9) Submarines: seeing submarines perform emergency sumergions when they spot bombers or several aircraft together flying towards them. But if they see a lone fighter, either submerge or decide to try to shot you down. 10) As the video posted bt mkubani, seeing secondary explosions of ships, holes made by torpedoes. Or even ships that brake in half. 11) More accurate aircraft operations. If 40 aircraft could be on the deck of the carrier and take off, i want to see that, and be part of that. 12) Silly one :). When you land after a mission, you could go out from your aircraft and walk to the building where the debriefing room is, and when you enter the building the mission stops automatically and you are on the debriefing room. Of course, if you dont want to waste time, you can press escape and choose MISSION OVER like we do with most sims. 13) Ammunitions depots that explode and cause damage to near by buildin with all the explosiones and proyectile being throwed anywhere. 14) Very large, thick and dark smoke columns created by fuel on fire, either on ships, refinarys, fuel depots, and so on. 15) Ships AI. Ship that maneuver and react according to the situation. Complex enough to see ship battles, with ships trying to get the better firing position and formation to defeat the opposite side. Not just SHIP1 goes straight from A to B at a fixed speed, SHIP2 goes from C to D also at a fixed speed, and they shoot each other while in range, after that they continue theyr way. 16) Ships peforming evasive maneuvers while being bombarded. 17) Hear the "pig" of the squad (there is always a pig and other pesonalities in every group) perform "unpleasent" sounds on the radio. :) 18) See a dog walking thru the base and pissing on aircraft wheels. :D 19) A damn and very disturbing insect flying inside your cockpit because it got stucked inside during take off. :rolleyes: 20) Dolphing swiming along ships, whales swiming on the sea, shark atacking downed pilotos :-P 21) UFO kidnapping bombers crews. :grin: 22) If you are shot down, being able to climb to the aircraft of another player, and be transported back to base. 23) Get airfields with cannibalized aircrafts, or partially damaged. 24) Aircraft being destroyed inside of hangars 25) People running around in an airfield under attack. 26) Better damage model of bridges, and realistic size of bridges. On IL-2, eveng on the bigger bridges, a fighter have's not enough space to go along the bridge. 27) See vehicles and tanks go on the same road, or route, on opposite directions at the same time, crossing each other side by side. 28) Troop camps with camouflaged nets over tents, AAA units, trucks and tanks. 29) Damaged aircraft that have crushing failures of structures because of a hard maneuver, that on a normal situation that aircraft could stand it perfectly. 30) More realistic harbours, with ships docking and undocking, cargo being transferred. In other words, like with airfields, have ALIVE harbours. And i will finsh here for the moment. :) |
It seems to me that the following seems to be of interest to a lot of people:
Human activity on the airfield during: 1. taxiing, 2. landing, 3. attacking, In my opinion, that kind of extra activity would really "fill in the gaps" and set the simulation apart from everything that has come before, and add a tremendous amount of immersion and interest for the offline player. Of course time and resources surely would govern how much, but I don't think it would take a lot of "activity like this" to really make everyone excited and bring some life to simulations. |
you crash land in enemy territory, that trigger sets off vehicles that soon arrive with soldiers beating the grass looking for you:grin:
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Looking at the title of this thread, maybe you can make the AI from time to time say that "holy sh... did you see that" when some of this more uncommon things happen.:-P
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Vera Lynn singing "White Cliffs of Dover" for the title music.
That would be the best surprise I could think of. Perhaps proper music on the radio when you are at base, instead of the canned Hollywood Movie music like Pacific Fighters had. Flashes of bombs going off in the distance as London is bombed at night, and the glow of the fires in the sky from the attack as well. The sound of a train in the distance. It's the small things that make it real, not the OMG! stuff. |
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And some of us prefer flying to making missions ;) Another thing I've thought of that would be cool is random weapons failure. You sneak up on an enemy fighter, close up, hit the trigger...and only one of your cannons fires. Or you're on a rocket attack, and some of the live rockets decide to stay on the plane, or a bomb doesn't release and you have to deal with it, or hope that it comes off on it's own (don't know if that could even be modeled with the stuff already extant) |
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qi5ad...eature=related With an engine like this and 'intelligent' characters that react automatically to the external events, there'd be no end of "OMG did that just happen?". Some of the greatest moments in IL2 are the results of aircraft AI automatically reacting to the environment and situations. This engine provides the same for human characters. Every bailout would be unique depending on airspeed, g-forces, aircraft attitude etc. Wing riding ground crew wouldn't have to be specifically keyframed to do that with different animations for each aircraft's wing. Imagine hitting the brakes and watching the wing rider fall off the front of the wing. Even better, wait for someone to climb on and then power up suddenly. Bonus points for tricking the guy into hanging on while you take off :grin: Human characters wouldn't just be puppets going through the motions of their programmed keyframes; they'd have a sense of self-preservation. Jumping away from the prop if you don't warn them with a 'clear!' before starting the engine. Seeking bomb shelters on seeing diving bombers or hearing the air raid siren. This stuff isn't idle pie in the sky musing. There's already a few games using this technology. Look up Euphoria Engine from NaturalMotion on YouTube. I don't pretend to understand all the challenges involved in implementing such technology in a flight sim using today's technology but I sure hope we won't have to wait another ten years for the next version of IL2 to get this. |
Now that... that would be really incredible.
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Second that...
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Euphoria would be awesome, yes, but I do believe it's pretty much out of question, it would take too many resources.
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This thread got me to sign in again and make a comment - probly 2 years since that happened.
Historical is the key for me. The missions probably were very similar. You were not a fighter pilot one day and a bomber pilot the next. Even the fighters were trained in certain areas and armed as such. But it's a game so... What I want to see. A mission with a soul. Just a little tidbit of info came get you into the flight. Your wingman is a noob...watchout for him. Topcover for a HE115 searescue of a fellow pilot. Running into an ace you have been briefed on. Scramble for takeoff.. a damaged bomber is heading slowly back over the Channel to France...get it .. cover arrive historical radio chatter. I want to make a kill/damaged claim after a mission. |
Good idea, Ilya. Thanks for asking for input.
Nothing really new from me, but to repeat some of the suggestions I've seen in this thread and like: - Secondary explosions. A stick of bombs from an He-111 walking across an airfield, and plowing up nothing but dirt until one bomb hits an ammo bunker. There's nothing better than instant feedback on your targeting. This could apply to ammunition and bombs inside airborne aircraft, too. Nothing gratuitous, but where appropriate for the amount of damage taken, and the explosive nature of the point of impact. - Fratricide. This might be annoying (especially if it's your wingman shooting you down by mistake), but from reading historical accounts, this happened fairly often. Give us a reason for all the recognition stripes and colors, besides really cool paint schemes from the skinners. In other words, make the Ai make human-like mistakes, instead of computer-like mistakes. To steal a line from the beginning of 'Rustler's Rhapsody': "For starters, maybe he wouldn't be so damn perfect all the time." - For historical accuracy, some squadrons during some periods will have the same mission type day after day. Others will be more dynamic, and controllable by the player. Examples of the latter include Rhubarb, armed recce and Frei Jagd type missions. Motorcycle gang tactics, cruising an area armed and looking for trouble. - After a swirling dogfight, finding a friendly Ai fighter and joining up on him for mutual support while leaving the area. - I'm not sure how to implement it, but if players on non-recce missions see something of interest, give them the opportunity to report it, and possibly have that report generate a mission to attack it (or at least photograph it) later. This might encourage folks to look around, instead of just droning from waypoint to waypoint. For example, while escorting bombers to airfield target X, the player notices a supply dump 5 km south of the target airfield. Or a group of ships in port making steam in preparation to depart. - Lost aircraft going the wrong way, and occasionally landing at the wrong field. This happened with allied aircraft landing at a different (friendly) field fairly often, and much more rarely with aircraft landing at an enemy airfield. - The ability to commandeer a subordinate's aircraft after yours has been damaged, or suffers a mechanical problem before takeoff. Rank Has Its Privileges, though this could have repercussions on the junior pilot's experience and skill. - I like the idea of landing to rescue a downed squadron-mate too. This opportunity would be historically very rare, and very difficult. That would be the bottom line for most of these "holy sh**" moments in general. They should be rare enough to be realistic, but not so rare that the player never encounters any of them. One of your biggest tricks is going to be finding the balance between over-saturation, and historical rarity. Good luck, and I look forward to your efforts. |
- Water falling over the windshield when you pass through a water column created by a bombas explosion over water. It could even make your engine couf or shut it down, if you absorb too much water.
I dont know the techinical detail of how much water the engines could absorb without shutting down. To all people asking for AI mistakes, please, be carefull with what you ask. Because later on with the sim in our hands, we start to get threads everywhere complaining about "stupid AI shot me down", or crash over a mountain or the ground when it was chased by another aircraft, or complaining that they don't shoot down anything, or that they shoot down everything before i get the chance to shoot down an aircraft, and so on. |
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1\Few against Many
A common place of the BoB was that often few Spits and Hurricanes were sent to intercept huge gaggles of German bombers and fighters. Imagine popping out of the clouds just to see several miles long of tight bombers formations, with fighter covers already diving on you. I had that thrill with Shockwave's Battle of Britain II, watching dozens of enemy planes sailing among beatiful towering clouds. The Tally-Ho! of the squadron commander gave me that "Holy ...t!" feeling, that I can remember even so many years later. Something similar is magisterially described by Pierre Clostermann in the last chapter of his "The Big Show", when they attack a Norwegian base among swarms of enemy planes. 2\Sector Control I believe also that, as Feathered suggested, realistic radio comms from the Fighter Command and Sector Control, vectoring you to the bandits, will add a lot to the immersion. BoB on british side was all about Fighter Command, early wake ups, readiness in the dispersal barrack, calls from the phone, up in the air and then the voice of the controller on the radio (maybe with real Fighter Command characters like "Woody" Woodhall). 3\BBC A funny fact, related by Brian Kingcome, was that the first radios were shortwave, and one could tune them in flight, so Kingcome used to tune on the BBC channels to listen to a popular songs program during the long and tedious convoy escorts ... all that ended at Brian's scorn, when VHF sets with fixed frequencies were fitted in the planes ... Regards, Insuber |
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Hence my comments about Vera Lynn. :grin: |
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1. Oxygen system failures on high altitude (often in early months of BoB on Hurricanes Mk1)
2. More things to break in cockpit (like electricity fail, sparks from gauges etc.) and more available mechanical failures 3. Viewable pilot's hands and legs inside cockpit (and an ability to turn it off, just like in DCS) 4. Feeling like you're only small gear in war machine (lot of action everywhere) 5. Movie actions (just look at Call of Duty series - these guys are masters in emotion creation) 6. Bad airfield conditions like mud etc (hell for late german pilots) 7. Human animation (this Euphoria is great) 8. "Beepers" used by RAF to identify squadrons on radar 9. Full weather implementation 10. Crew members moving, talking, screaming inside planes 11. Every button available to click, everything available to turn off or turn on! Every gauge working! Just full working cockpit! 12. Bailing out and falling on a parachute - everything in 1st person perspective 13. Heavy pilot's breath in cockpit while under heavy G, wounded etc 14. Lot of radio communications, i dont want to hear 20 times same text in one mission PS. Sorry for my poor English |
Flying over the black forest and you spot her, I did'nt really see that, did I?
edited: may be against the rules, unsure |
- Se depth charges explosions.
It would look cool if you are flying over the north sea or the channel and find one or several destroyers throwing depth charges trying to hunt a submarine. :) |
1. I would like to see a user history more like Falocn4:AF that you can carry with you from one install to the next. Total time, a-a kills, a-g kills, ect...
2. An in depth After Action reporting system. 3. More of a campaign engine (again) line Falcon has. Falcon is years old and still has a campaign that pulls you in like no other and makes you feel as though you are part of a war enviorment that is truly alive. 4. I would like to see airfields have fuel depot (gas), Hangars (repairs), Office areas (morale or leadership maybe...) and runways (for taking of and landing obviously) depending on what you hit and damage you inflict could mean losing that item there. For instance if the fuel is 100% knocked out you can respawn there but start with the fuel you landed with. Or if they are damged, depending on teh amount there is again a points or time penalty to use it. If the just hangars are knocked out you respawn with a full tank but you still have damage or a time penalty to take off... 5. Damage that stays (Damaged) until its fixed somehow. If you launch an attack on an enemy airfield and crater the beginning middle and end of the runway than good luck talking off... of if you just crater one side of it it would have to be a short takeoff. If teh damage shaowed it would also allow other to know what to target because they can see it. I would love to see big smokin craters in the middle of a BLUE runway ;) 6. Lastly I would like to see Voice Comms and a Hyperlobby style multiplayer area built into the game. None of these gamespy crap so many games use... sopmething tailored for the IL2 flight sim crowd. It may convince others to try online multiplayer if they see us catting it up in comms via voice and/or VOIP. ------ I love this sim. - Oleg and the devs you guys have done great over the years. |
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Runway craters would have been filled in a few hours at most (as they used to say at the time, there was a war on). If you mean bullet holes should not evaporate when the graphics card gets bored of them, I'm with you, but if you want everybody to suffer unrealistically long-lasting effects from offensive actions, I'm absolutely not. |
-aircraft jumpseat position
-panorama view in ATC tower -fly airship or yacht with a girl for holiday sightseeing -photo wall in pilot club -checklist before flight -operational AAA gun -fuel dump when airborne -newspaper or aircraft flight manual reading during bomber flying -signal flare before takeoff -swim to float plane for rescue （perhaps after signal flare） -parachute diving training -lubricant oil maintenance -fueling ...... |
Been thinking a bit about how one might make multi-crew aircraft more interesting. Especially with regards to the roles crew members should play. AI Flight Engineers should tell you when an engine is overheating. A navigator should man a turret if a gunner is killed or wounded. All crew should be given some awareness of the outside world and be able to report on it. Below is how I hope a mission in SoW might play out:
Inter-Service Communication & Crew Management and in SoW... You are flying the latest mission in your Blenheim bomber's single-player dgen campaign. It is September 1940. You are with 53 Sqn based at Detling. You mission brief is to patrol a section of occupied coast on a line from Ostend to Zeebrugge, and on up to Middleburg. On the Met screen (a handy innovation for SoW) you can see that there is expected to be 8/10th cloud all the way. Not bad, you tell yourself. Your orders are to return however if cloud cover is insufficient. 53 Squadron has taken a beating in the last few weeks. The Blenheims stand little chance against determined fighter attack, and on this mission you will be flying alone. A look at the Nav-screen (another first for SoW) it shows the Navigator's suggested course for the patrol. Looks okay, but you move the return waypoint near Middleburg a little further West. No need to tempt fate... In the air, you see that the weather is much as the met boys predicted. Eight-tenths, down to about 3000ft. You cross the coast near Ramsgate, skimming in and out of the cloud base. You key in your first instructions to the crew. This is done in a similar way to which you communicated to AI wingmen in the Il-2 series. Hitting the Tab key, you go to the Crew-All list and select the command to instruct them to report on all Land-Sea-Air contacts. The AI crew's reaction time in searching if you choose a specific area to search (air, for example) is much faster than all at the same time, but on this show you'll be needing a good lookout. Far out into the Channel now. The AI navigator gives you a course correction. Steer one-one-oh. You look down at the compass. Must have wandered off a bit... You put on a bit of right rudder and the nose of the Blenheim comes back around. "On course" says the Navigator approvingly. At almost the same moment, the wireless op/gunner suddenly calls out, "Ship to starboard!" Where? You dip the wing and peer out through the cloud and mist. Can't see anything. The gunner's skill in identifying sea and land targets isn't the best. He is just a gunner after all, and his experience level has been modelled appropriately. The AI navigator/bomb aimer however is more informative. "I see it" he says. "Bearing fifty" "Destroyer, one of ours!" You look in the direction indicated. Ah, there it is. Very pretty. Still a ways off though. Might as well say hello... Throttles forward, you sweep down with the intention of giving the Navy a damn good beat up. You are speeding towards the destroyer when suddenly the ships guns open up. A burst of AA appears to the right, and then suddenly another burst much, much closer, accompanied by the dry rattle of shrapnel. Oh, for F**k sake! You pull up and bank away from the destroyer. At the same time showing the roundels on the bottom of your wings. A few more shots, and the gunfire ceases. Ships in Sow have a likelyhood of aircraft recognition based on variables of distance, weather and angle. Circling the destroyer at a more respectful distance, you see a light flashing from the bridge. "Ship is signalling..." reports the AI Wop/Gunner. "Message reads: Apologies. Be advised, enemy aircraft in the vicinity..." No future in that, you tell yourself. You hit the Tab key again and bring up the commands for your navigator, requesting a heading to target. Within moments you are back on course, climbing back up towards cloud cover. A moments consideration and you also change the crews lookout instructions. Telling them to concentrate on seeking threats from the air. Not a minute to soon either... "Fighter, Fighter! Break right Break right!!" calls your gunner. As you throw the bomber into a steep bank, the rear gun begins to clatter . A dark shape booms over the top of your canopy and disappears into the cloud above. "Lost him..." says the gunner. Engines screaming, clawing for height, the first wisps of cloud sweep past... ================================================== ===== The inclusion of crew interactions and management is similar to what we have now in the way we instruct and deploy AI wingmen in Il-2. I think it would be a great boost to the immersion in SoW if these things can be expanded and added to the single and multi player experience. Their inclusion would have great potential in adding the soul that is badly missed in the genre. ;) |
One thing I sometimes found immersion killing in IL2 was the lack of an obvious sense that you had touched down. Would be great if there was much more feedback that
A) made it clear you had landed B) gave a sense of how well you had landed. This feedback would come via sound and be anything from a real thud and bounce to a gentle kiss and be accompanied by a POV movement rangeing from a slight nod to a head forced into your lap for a real monster cock up...... |
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"On 11 July 1940 Bader scored his first kill with his new squadron. The weather was bad, the cloud base was down to just 600 feet while drizzle and mist covered most of the sky. Forward visibility was down to just 2,000 yards. Bader was alone on patrol, and was soon directed toward an enemy aircraft flying north up the Nolfolk coast. Spotting the aircraft at 600 yards through the mist, Bader recognised it as a Dornier Do 17." This was July 1940 and the weather was true to British form. :rolleyes: |
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It's warmer than would be expected from the latitude, and damp, both due to the sea. |
- Well, on IL-2 we have damge to the airframe and some instruments of the cockpit. But for example we never have damge to the windshield. It would look cool if the windshield gets perforated when you are bounced by and aircraft. But it must no be random, it must happen if the trajectory of the bullet or cannon shell intercept the windshield but not your head.
In other words, see the impact of bullets and cannon shels to the cockpit and windshield, when they really hapen. If you get hit on your head you are dead and see nothing, but if you ar not hit, seeing the windshield explode (from the front, side or above), for example, would be frightening and cool. Of course with that it must come that you increase drag, very loud wind sound, and all the problems that come with a broken windshield. Also, the damage to the windshield should be according to the caliber and ammunition type that hit it. |
Some of the fun things we have done in our missions:-
i) Minimum height attacks (Sneaking accross the lines - where mission fails if you are above a set height) ii) Scramble on airfield attack (Would be better if you started near/in the hangers rather than on the flight line) iii) Shadow the enemy strike - calling in the rest of your fighter wing for a co-ordinated attack once they arrive. iv) Waiting "oncall" and then call in the ground attacks based on coloured smoke/FO directions. We generally use "human observation" to see if people have failed (flown too high/been spotted etc) Paul |
In AI topic, I would like to see REAL german tactics. I mean tactics of escorts. On first two months it was very liked by fighter pilots because they could fly above escorted bombers and then dive on attackers. But tactics were changed due to bomber losses and they had to stay in formation with the same speed as bombers had and couldn't break before Tommy attack. That was very frustrating.
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If its impossible, well, at least like themink said, start near the hangar and taxi to the runaway or take off field. :) |
A few ideas that popped into my head;
How about being able to hit objects like trees, light telephone/ electric cables, without causing a crash, and arriving home with branches and cables stuck on your plane ( I think this one has already been mentioned earlier, but I like the idea ). Birds are going to be modeled ( seagulls at least ). If their landing gear has been modeled ;-) then you could have a flock of them on the ground ( or in trees if other birds are available ) that would be startled by a low flying plane and they would all take off in unison. A bird strike could be an obvious option here, but not necessarily, as the sight of a flock of birds taking flight would be pretty neat in itself. I read somewhere a while ago that cows were also going to be in BoB. As with the birds, a low flying plane passing over a herd of cattle in a field would probably cause a mini stampede. A nice little bit of eye candy while flying, but imagine then arriving back at base and in the debriefing screen having the base adjutant inform you that Farmer Brown has just been on the phone complaining that his cows have gone off their milking :-) If you bale out successfully, what if it was possible for your parachute to get caught up in trees, roofs, church spires etc, leaving you dangling till the mission ends. :evil: I've never personally seen this phenomenon, but I believe it can be seen on planes in storm clouds...... St Elmo's Fire. That could be quite spooky. All these suggestions would never be missed if they weren't in the game, but they could add a little more to the immersion if they were. |
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