Ahh finally some humor appearing in the thread!
For what its worth Ivan (not much I think) and regardless of what you might think of me,I do actually think you did a pretty good job at ubi.
Evgeny is much more patient than I would be.

Evgeny is super-nice IRL... and it shows here ;)

i dont think creating a new anti hack patch is going to be all that simple, and the fact we still dont have it right before x-mass is an indication of that.

from an 18 month old post at the zoo when one of the semi official 1c people commented on the then initial concerns about this same hack (which hadnt gone wild yet)

and another good server closing down:

** Historia il2 server closing time **
http://www.gozr.net/iocl/viewtopic.p...er=asc&start=0

going by what people have been saying on TS lately, and the post in that thread, the hack nonsense is contributing to this gradual slide.

And the sky gets closer to the ground....

This thread needs a bump,it was nearly off the front page.

so is this post. The hack isn't a real reason for the closing of historia. There was never anyone on it as far as I can tell.

Hello,
have been with all IL2 series from the very beginning up to the 4.04M version and I really didn't wanted to go beyond 4.04M and just wishing to wait for new release of BOB-SOW but unfortunately it will take a lot longer than expected and I don't blame any modders at all for it , I will now go and buy IL2-1946 version just for the sake of having improved engine sounds .
So there you go , I will once again support IL2 business and buy IL2-1946 even thou having already pile up of all other IL2 disks ;)
Sound mod is the only reason for me to buy IL2 series from scratch again before BoB-SoW release .
I am 90% off-liner and used to play 10% on-line in HL .
Engines sound was always killing me no matter how much Oleg tried to defend it with an explanation for need a good sound card and speakers.
My Soundblaster Audigy card and JBL speakers were not that crapy at the time and my card and speakers did nothing for me in sound improvement .
Now look what have you done , because of you sound modders , I will buy this sim again before BoB-SoW release :evil:

I shall eat alive all remaining IL2 disks that I collected since !!! just joking :grin:

and in this post nobody is asking for how to hack information of course

All I can do is LMAO. It even made you register and type out your very first post!

Thank you BSS_Sniper ;)

How small is the planet earth , I was once for shorter period of time member of the very squad you're in !!
I was BSS_AviaS199 with also my friend BSS_AckAck that used to be there or maybe not any longer .
I didn't want to flame anyone , I didn't registered just to post this one reply ,
I actually registered at the beginning of December .
Just moved recently from Ubi forum to this one as I found this one much more interesting and funny .
My point was that yes , the so much hated sound mod alone makes me to buy the whole IL2-1946 version.
While nobody could care less what I think , I just wanted to let you all know.

Merry Christmas to you and your squad and all of you computer fighterpilots !!! :grin:

You know Jumo that as an offliner I find your point and post valid and I fear to have the choose between a new map (4.09) or keep the goodies we have now.

Merry xmas to you as well. This one may not be much more interesting, but it sure is a lot less moderated. Actually, I don't think its moderated at all. lol

........
 

I think Evgeny does a decent job letting things take their course. I've seen several instances where he stepped in when necessary. I also thought he handled it with dignity and diplomacy to the offenders. He got a lot of respect from me seeing that.

It's not babysat like at UBI, but there aren't anywhere near as many members here. My comments have nothing to do with UBI's moderating skills. I'd certainly hate to read hundreds of posts day after day after day with the sole purpose of moderating. It's not easy deciding the line and where it's been crossed. For the vast majority of issues I think they did pretty darn good..... especially when IL2 was putting out 3 and 4 pages of GD a day.

I am about to stick with 4.08 for off-line fun and will keep sound and other goodies .
There is no way for me to go back to old sound , I'm sorry to anyone who might be offended by people like me but after so many years , I can't pass that one for sure.
I have the utmost respect for on-liners and always trully wish for fair game to them and finding solution against anything that may give some kind of advantage that might be unfair to others.
I'm not in @ss kissing business , I'm trully speaking my heart .

Hear! Hear!

Hi Viking , :)

here is so far description of this all mix up ....

IMO it would be great if 4.09 could be ecicively locked... That way folks who want the goodies can have them and those who would prefer hack free online play could do that .....

JUMO -- me too!!

I stopped at 4.04, but the now and future modding potential would be the reason I would upgrade to 1946. But I would like Oleg to "approve" of the modding first somehow. Its so far out of the bag, and apparently growing in popularity among FB/PF players, that I figure the 4.08 hack will turn into approved mods after 4.09. Just a guess.

Thanks LEXX ,
I'm glad that I'm not alone, who took since 4.04 wait and see approach.
Who can blame us , the 4.05 upgrade got so many horror stories that they were just too much to overlook having all the hassle after others did download software upgrade to 4.05
It got to the point that we would have to buy something that was almost guarantee not to work because of security piece added to it which happen to prevent many legit upgrades by not recognizing them.
In this case IL2-1946 is hassle free install and yet again worth for me to be a proud owner of IL2 complete masterpiece.
Yes , I myself failed to be patriotic to Oleg after my 4.04M version to carry on beyond with few maps and planes upgrade.
During time the 4.05 version was out , I took for the first time out of curiosity dive in to FPS world of gaming , bought all version of Call of duty, Far Cry and F.E.A.R , even tried demo of Crysis and guess what , at this very moment IL2 continue to be the only game that I play on regular basis and FPS games are all gone from my disk , I never connected with FPS games on personal level comparing to IL2.
IL2 will always have special place in my heart and I can't almost function as a human being without it .
I would never expected in a thousands years that there will be this sudden turn in IL2 franchise development that was done to this very point and I'm sure more is coming if we like it or not.
Oleg will never give blessing to this files tinkering madness , it aint gonna happen and he's surely offended beyond repair by all of this.
It's not all over and end of the world , for every action there is an reaction and I believe at the end of the day things will get worked out with some acceptable solution.
With all this recently amazing attention all over the world about IL2-1946 , this product is now even more legendary than ever before !

Holy truth Bearcat , holy truth !!
There will always be the extra step and willingness by someone to do just exactly that. ;)

:) Pretty much sums me up as well... with a few exceptions..

ain't happening, and as said many times those pro-hack claiming they'd leave 4.09 alone, within minutes of it's release they're at it.....

Did you expect different?......

To tell you the truth Billfish,I did.And yes,I am naive.And don't assume we are all 'at it'

Is this where the community parts ways........some folks choose door number one....some folks choose door number two...or do we just take door number three.:confused:

I'm a little confused about the issue myself. I too was hoping this would be the case. Although I do understand the desire to be able to have these great new maps and objects and still be able to use the really cool mods. It's a little confusing for me right now, I want a solution that will let the non-modders have a sense of security online but let the modders be able to do thier thing too. Hopefully someone will come up with a solution......

Its the normal situation with beta patches.Most will use 4.08 for general online use.Some will use the beta to fly with others with the beta.Best to have 2 installs of the game.

Naturally then you also believed FM/DM/Weapons/etc. would not be tampered with in any way, shape, form, or degree.....So tell us again.....

Once having chosen a path most follow it to its end......Call me a Cynic, yet the work of the modders of "all groups" (those posting here just a small fraction YET could of taken a leadership role, refused), and sadly the cheaters using their work has just begun.

K2

While I am disappointed/confused over what is happening with 4.09mb I do firmly beleive that AAA will not cross the FM/DM/Weapons line.

I don't know Billfish.I personally would not have a clue how to make a mod.Don't take me for having any sort of 'leadership' role either.I am just one person who has an opinion like everyone else.Obviously you visit the AAA forums a lot,so you have probably seen my posts there saying I would like 4.09 to be left alone.I am sure there are several of us that feel the same way.
And no,I have still not seen any increase in cheating online.

In most cases only the one cheating can see it........You don't see or hear what cheats another may use (except for rediculous speed hacking (non-mod related) and so on), nor will there be any sure way to tell with most unless THEY post tracks........

So do you expect cheaters to state openly that "they cheat"?...........Anyone to believe no one will is simply foolish.....and to state that due to the work of the hackers we must now all limit our online play to purely those we can trust/know well and so on, is nothing short of imposing your will upon others play unfairly. So cheating unto itself.

Please don't tell me that all of this with any of you is just now sinking in.....Please don't tell me that you believed all here are purely honorable....I don't have to argue this, I simply need to go back to my first post on any forum on the subject and say "told you so"....

Wait for it.....It's already here, yet the glaring blatant proof you seek is coming, and I'm no great visionary it's just how people are.

Wait for it..... ;)

K2

Nothing has to sink in with me. I still do not believe the sky is falling.I enjoy il2 online as much now as I ever have done.As you no doubt know from my posts I only use unmodded il2 online.The people who cheat (and have always cheated,in some way or other) will continue to do so.
I expect people to cheat every time I enter a public dogfight server.I am usually not disappointed.

BS! That is the way of online play, f'ing get used to it, noone is imposing shit on you! It has ALWAYS been the case that to keep cheaters away you play with people you know, that will never change! Just because you have had the illusion that online play has been fair does not mean that it has been. Il2 has been leading a sheltered life so far, most of it denial anyway. Every other online game on the damn planet is that way, play with those you know or risk cheaters, why the f$%# start whining about it now?

I'm sorry if this offends some people but I am sick and damn tired of being accused of shit because I like some of the mods! I did not hack anything! I did not cheat anybody! I did not force my will on anyone! I didn't do shit to anybody so STFU and leave us all the hell alone, if you don't like the mods, then don't f'ing use them and go play your damn game. If you can't have fun with it anymore cause you can't deal with the real world then sucks to be you!

I just read, again, at that other site that someone modded specific aircraft WM to use safat rounds. Rone or Josse ring a bell? That isn't the only WM mod either.

Is this the same Urufu that is nashing his teeth over at AAA about leaving 4.09 alone so the pure of heart and the rest of us bums can just get along??? EEEeeeeeYeow! Well said BTW ;)

Just because you didn't cook the crack before you smoked it doesn't mean you're still not a crackhead. Chill, you're getting mighty defensive........

Yes, josse does have a mod like that, and yes it has been mentioned on the AAA site, but it is a banned mod on AAA, it is against the AAA rules and will never be posted there. It was simply discussed.

And don't you dare compare the use of mods to being a crackhead. Yes I'm getting defensive, you would be too if it was you being accused of vile actions that you did not commit. All I do is fly B-17s and B-29s and such and me and everyone like me is being accused of all sorts of crap. I've said here and on other forums a bunch of times that I would put this back in the bottle if I could, but I cannot, so no one is going to "impose their will" on me and keep me from having fun while not hurting anyone. I have done NOTHING WRONG! If you guys want a level playing feild stop accusing and belittling others and come up with a solution your damn selves. I've tried and treid to come up with some sort of way to find a peaceful middle ground but I've finally realized that that will never happen as long as an insane few keep insisting we are doing wrong by minding our own damn buisness on our own damn pc's.

as before I could join HL and feel very confident of the 1,000 there, that it would be a rare occurance to run into a cheater and once known, easy enough to blow off............Now however, in that many mods, not just a few yet many grant advantage over the stock game......I can feel very confident that NO mission I fly in is hack/cheat free.

It is your responsibility, as all others here, as it was up to us as members of a community to protect what is the foundation of our community the sim.......To support the contrary, shirking ones responsibility and stating clearly what path you've chosen....as I said above;

"Once having chosen a path most follow it to its end......Call me a Cynic, yet the work of the modders of "all groups" (those posting here just a small fraction YET could of taken a leadership role, refused), and sadly the cheaters using their work has just begun."

p.s.....the modders broke it, up to them to fix it or are the non-modders to have to take up the yoke of responsibility again as well as the modders go about their merry uncaring way?..........Sadly how it is hon, not a slam to you directly, yet one to all who support a wrong.


Wait for it............

K2

Sorry Billfish I really don't understand what you mean by this.What 'leadership' role could we have taken?
AAA is not my site,and I have no sway there,same as urufu.

billfish, I've said my peace, I'm not responsible for your delusions, I wish everyone would just STFU and leave everyone else the hell alone.

Has anyone considered the possibility that, as a result of the ability to fly such long awaited planes like the big bombers, or in my case the TBM, that 1:C may see a resurgence of sales of 1946? How many times over the past several years have we seen people post in the various forums, asking if this, or that plane were available to fly in this sim? I wonder if they might have passed on 1946 (or any of the previous versions) simply because their favorite plane was AI only? I wonder how many of those will be inclined to buy it now? There's no question that the game has been immensely improved by the sound mod. It's like a whole new game. The concerns of the un-modded about cheating seems to be misplaced as long as the public servers out there are able to exclude someone with a modded version. Yet, anyone can fly on a mod friendly server, and can do so at their own discretion. I don't see any conflict. Why all the animosity in here?

Well none of what I've said directed at individuals....however,

...meaning "that group" could have if having made an effort made themselves not only the focal point of all the modding communities, dictated what was acceptable and what wasn't, helped developed ways to prevent cheating, and even converted the community to a whole by simply being responsible.

Unfortunately, they have instead simply focussed on their own wants openly challenging any truth as to the matter if contrary to those wants........So a situation that simply grows worse yet ONLY in their hands to correct. It IS the responsibility for all to take a side, the "crack analogy" very true as......

If you fight it you encourage it to be driven from your community as unacceptable....
If you support it, use it, fight for it even if just for yourself then you are trying to make it acceptable in your community (as if no one uses it, no one would make it....)
If you do nothing, and do not take a stand, then as with all things it will be taken as you don't care, and therefor find it acceptable.

We all no matter how insignificant we may think we are, affect the communities we're part of for good or bad........We're all responsible for it like it or not.

Wait for it........

K2

hmmm... to mod or not to mod that is the question ! now ... i'm getting my 4.09 beta tomorrow ( cos 56k) from friend and after reading all those post with accusations and distrust why the hell i still have dilemma ? And i'm openly saying here : i know how to mod pretty much every part (aspect) of the game.

So Billfish if you are right then i'm troubling myself with no reason...

What is done - is done. It cannot be undone.

So why keep moaning about it?

Still talking to the hand?

Maybe if the modders had STFU about it and kept it in their own forums without coming in here boasting about it, you wouldn't now be so offended.

What the hackers even doing here just ban them

Yeah! and next, we could start making a big pile of books, and have a nice bon fire too!!

I wasn't calling you a crackhead. It was just an extreme way to get a point across. Also I know that most people over there aren't cheating or even inclined to do so. There are, however, discrepancies. Those mod's you said aren't over there, are over there and/or the site is openly giving the info on where to go get them. That is no different than just having it available there to DL.

The only thing I have a problem with now is that they already made 4.09 open to modding. If they cared anything about the community as a whole they would've just left it alone. I know what some will say, "oh, but someone would've anyway". Well, people will rob banks too and commit suicide.......

The one chance they had to regain any credibility they just blew right of the water by going right into 4.09, beta or not. It really shows the mentality.

From the guy that loves every mod at that site, FM, DM, WM modding, frankenplanes and disputes nothing, whatever it is, anything and everything goes. If thats all you have to contribute, why type anything?

LOL Gee, well you have me peg'd dont ya?

Infact you're so wrong its not funny. I dispute quite a lot - and am one of those who keeps reminding people over there that FM/DM/WM arent warrented there!

Infact I believe my point is rather correct - STOP your bitchin' and moaning - it aint going to change nothing!

Dooh...not very sharp for a razor.

“The concerns of the un-modded about cheating seems to be misplaced as long as the public servers out there are able to exclude someone with a modded version. Yet, anyone can fly on a mod friendly server, and can do so at their own discretion. I don't see any conflict.”

Maybe you should learn to read and/or take the time to read before all the books are burned. Many of us would really appreciate you doing this before you overwhelm our tiny brains with your massive wisdom.

Over 21,000 views, 850 replies and 85 pages in this thread (You might start there)
Its been proven and stated again and again as well as acknowledged by both sides, that 4.08m servers can not block the many cheats that have been developed through the use of the sound hack. (Translation: Public 4.08m Servers can NOT exclude the mods/cheats and that is where the “conflict” is.)

My guess is most players don't care about what goes on in a checkruntime=0 server as long as there is a future checkruntime=x to go to for good clean fun.

The hope lies with the “4.09 server" edition having better anti mod/cheat measures.

Yes but the folks at AAA are not the only ones doing mods. Bear in mind that the same guys who I quoted in that post a few pages back from the AAA site are not solely AAA members just as I am not a "UBI" guy.. I hit SHQ, SOH, Frugals,AAA,here... While I see no point in being hostile to those who prefer to use mods since many whom I know have nothing but the enjoyment of the sim at the heart as to why theychose to use mods, that does not change the fact that there are others who either think that 1C got it wrong and they know better... they can "fix" it.. and they aren't all at AAA, or they just want to take it to the max... in fact.. the two guys that I quoted said as much in their post that was deleted at AAA. There are other sites... other modders that we don't even know about, and those guys have no qualms at all about altering FMs, DMs, or any part of the sim that they can figure out.

THAT is why so many people were so vehemently opposed to the way that the hack was released in the first place. Those guys if they had any respect for Oleg, this sim, this community odf simmers, whether you hit 1C, SHQ or fly totally offline... SHOULD have tried to find a way to maintain the integrity of the sim before they just plastered the hack in cyberspace. They didn't, and what most people feared would come to pass is coming to pass.... regardless to all the "good intentions" of those guys who just fly offline, or just want to improve the sim and have no intent to touch FMs or DMs in any way, that is happening.

That is why from the onset when it became clear to me what the deal was I tried to at least fall back to form another line... that line being [i]let's try to hold the community together by establishing some kind of modus operandi, even if unenforceable, since at least 70% of the people who fly in this sim from all the polls taken not only recently but even years ago, show consistently that 60-75% give or take a few points, of the people who fly this sim are over 30, and maybe the majority of them would follow some kind of unwritten guidelines.... and that to me is not being naive. Sure not everyone will follow it, but many do.. there are unwritten rules in all walks of social behavior... but I got reamed for even suggesting it.

This is a done deal... the cat is out.. unless as I have said from the start Oleg & 1C come up with something..

LMAO... wouldn't it be a trip if the AAA community actually wound up becoming the "good" mod community. We haven't seen the "bad" guys yet.. and many of us naively assume that AAA is the final stop for mods. It isn't by a long shot. It is just the one that many of us see because a lot of it's members come from the UBIverse.. but they arent the only mod community going so if you are anti mod and you (the old hypothetical you of course..) want to hold on tho that anger..... save some ammo.. because you will be seeing more bandits than the ones at AAA... be sure.

NOT SO!! The FACT still remains that in this sim until the public release of the hack the possibilities of cheating were vastly less likely that they are now. This is now a whole new ballgame.

As for YOU being a cheater... I don't know you well enough to call you one and frankly as I have always said from the start.. to call all modders cheaters is like calling all Black men with nice cars who live in the inner city drug dealers, or all cowboys racist, or all female athletes lesbians, or all Muslims terrorists.. it is in a word just plain stupid. I know people who use these mods... and they had integrity before they used them and AFAIC they still do. I know folks who use mods who either would not use them online, or if the server said "We do not want mods here" they would respect that... yeah yeah yeah.. there are those that won't.. but there are those that would... THAT is why I came up with the 5 points.. so that those who were not cheaters or had no intention of using mods where they weren't wanted and those who did not want them at all, could have a method to deal with that... and it wasnt all that complicated or hard to do just...

and even my fellow mods except for Quazi, not only did not support the notion, but totally poo pooed it, along with some others in this very thread from both sides of the fence. Some threatened to leave, I got told by both sides that I was trying to impose my will... and all kinds of silliness.. well guess what... THE MODS ARE STILL HERE.

And we are still going over this same old friggin BS.

Now the IL-2 have the best improvements from two worlds, is amazing!
No reason to mod the final version 4.09 final.
Now we all can wait happy for SOW.

I will now attempt to remove both of my feet and a few others I borrowed from my big mouth now. This may take some time however, I will return when I have completed this task. :\ I had the wrong name pegged mag! whoops..............

Forgive me for the love of God! ahhhhhhhh

Too late, they hacked it within hours of it being posted. No regard to the rest of the community.

I believe the mod from version 4.09 beta will not be compatible with final version 4.09.
If no compatibility, no problem.

............
 

There's a surprise. At least they're consistant.


Another wish on the BoB:SoW wishlist:

Destructive SRS files. If they remain uncracked they are harmless. Any cracking of the files would result in HD failure and CPU meltdown.


I can dream can't I?

Those are the same guys that I quoted before here and mentioned in my thread above...

The only way for BoB:SoW to be safe from crackers and hackers is to be a complete failure. Otherwise it will be a juicy target.

Like this one has been all these years....

There is another way.

The online Pay-To-Play sims seem to have a handle on cheaters. But then they have to since they charge a monthly fee while Oleg has always needed to depend on Offline play customers to finance "freebie" cheat-free Online play.

But there is an even better way for most all the existing customers if the sim were to be split into "moddable" and "un-moddable" versions. This is what Oleg seems to be planning for BoB And Beyond.

I'd LOVE BoB:SoW to be Pay-to-Play. I played 2 years wwiionline. What a BLAST!! The online battles are breathtaking (often more than 500 players on the ground, 30 in the sea and 80 flying) and the devs release a new patch every month, and every Friday night info on the next updates along with request from users. And imagine that they have only 6 devs.

OH PLZ, PRETTY PLZ OLEG, make this game Pay-to-Play. The majority of your fans are adults with good jobs. Don't stick to the dinosaur paradigm of getting only $50 once and then having to satisfy our requests for life , and we having to wait for ages to get a new plane! ;). Plz make it pay-to-play.

About two years back, Oleg poasted at sukhoi.ru that he would personally like to take his future sims purely Online Pay-To-Play. About one year ago Oleg poasted at the ubizoo that, For BoB And Beyond, he will offer, if it works out...

(1) "moddable" sim for Offline play and "open mod" Online servers.

(2) "un-moddable" sim for "closed" or no-mod Online servers.

However, about a month or two back, Oleg poasted here that it is "undecided" about freebie Online play and dedicated server. I'm not sure what this means.


-------------



BillFish (page...yikes...85) :: Be careful here not to damage the entire online play community. Vaguely targeted accusations with the intent to harass Oleg's customers was a common, and tolerated, webboard behavior seen at the publisher's forum as far back as 15 April 2003 when some hostile anonymous public server players accused Oleg's Offline play and private server/LAN play customers of "wanting to slider trim cheat online" for asking about working trim controls in their WW2 flight models.

..............
 

I don't play online. Don't want to either. If Oleg's going to go pay to play, then it should be online subscription service to play online...... NOT buy it AND then have to pay to play, like with City of Heros.

I'll pay 2 times as much (maybe 3x if I like the demo version enough) for the game because I think the initial investment is worth it, but I sure as hell won't buy it if my only option is online.

@neuraldream

if you have money to throw around for pay2play, fine.
but i would really appreciate it if you wouldn´t promote that awful business-model for SOW.
I, for my part know quite a lot serious players who are students or out of work or,
how can i say it? Yes: financially challenged.
If those people have to pay more than once, most of them can´t afford that.
I would like it the way it is right now: buy the game, pay for substantial upgrades and
leave the online play for donated servers.

There is a feeling, rightly or wrongly that the development of IL2 has favoured the minority Online players (just look at the new patch - where is the new DGEN EXE?)
So many people believe that the majority of purchasers (offline players) have funded development for a minority (online players)
If Olegs preference (as he has repeatedly stated) is for Online play...then that business model (volume offline purchasers funding preferential development for minority online players) will continue unless some kind of pay to play business model is introduced.

While it may be true that there may be more offline than online.. I hardly think the online players are a "minority" in the sense implied.. In a recent UBI poll almost half the players polled (203) played almost 50% online.. with 36% being either totally online or 90% online....

If SoW goes pay to play I may have to do something else with my flight sim tuime because the last thing I need in my life is another d@mn bill..

An online poll is hardly a scientific sample of the IL-2 community, particularly with reference to the online / offline issue. Key words: Blind Freddy; plain to.

I agree with you there, though.

cheers,
Ratsack

Actually......The supposed "requoted/exagerated/twisted" online to offline ratio is getting very tired. Fact of the matter is, anything even vaguely resembling the numbers folks like to quote came from a time and region where online activity had not developed fully....In the short run of this sim for ALL area's internet connections have dramatically improved.

How dramatic?.....From none to cable/wireless/satellite in many cases.....Along with that came greater online activity in all regards, and that applies to this sim as well.

Fact of the matter is, no matter how much so many here want to keep shouting how they're "100% offline" posting away here and seen on HL or elsewhere regularly, nobody is buying into the rediculous "95% offline" bunk.

If you play online AT ALL....you're an onliner....That most likely makes about 70-80+% of the player base. All the spin-twist-propaganda to the contrary fooling no one.

K2

Agree..... When I started simming highspeed was the exception... today it is the rule and dialup is the exception. Not only that if you are on dialup you can get it for under $15 taxes and all...

Even dail-up not as limiting as it used to be. There is a lot more to internet connections then point A-B, as it really is more like A-h-w-b-r-s-........Those backbones, and links between relay points in the past 5 years alone have improved dramatically. Also services severely limitting connections has ebbed as quite frankly people were not tolerating it.

Though perhaps having a high ping, quite often you'll find it means little once online....What I've learned to use as a standard is NOT how high anothers ping is (within reason)...Yet how stable is it, as I've seen some consistantly running 500-700 pings and their play is smooth and in-time.

All this "i'm so social I sit on the forums all day, yet when it comes to my play I become an anti-social recluse" is simply hogwash.

K2

Hi all ;)

So, Bearcat, i am here, you can fire at will ;)

Yes, i am modding, yes, with some modders, we have made our own site...

And yes, i made some types of mods, like modification on clouds, smoke visibility, new smokes for trains and more longer wreckage smokes, new QMB with more options, french localisation of the sound mod and much more.....

Why we did'nt have some options like smoke and visibility is clearly because at the beginning of the game, PCS can't run such options without falling on knees... it was a good choice of Oleg and i respect that...

Clearly, i respect Oleg and his work..... but, i found some things really strange , like in weapons and.... yes, i am also tweaking weapons.... is it so bad that italians have correct machine guns or 13.2 MG on IAR instead MG131 ? Ask romanian peoples ;)

So, i know (as many people said to me) that only the .50 are to weak :rolleyes: i received many mps to say me that the only prob in the sim was the weakness of .50 but, dont touch other weapons........ pathetic for me.

Italian or romanian weapons, by example are clearly widly undermodeled. Not impressions..... just facts and numbers i can see.

So, discuss is impossible here , enough flameware......

I tried to discuss at AAA and.... nothing was really clear, only the clear will of MrJolly to no accept DM/FM/Weapons modding.... so as said as AAA, accept or leave..... i did'nt agree, i leaved.

But, yes, i will continue, diffuse my mods, never for DM or FM, just for weapons, but not only... i will try to repaint some pits, like IAR.... but, don't be affraid, breda are allways much weaker than .50, just more accurate.

Italians pilots can now shoot allied planes like in real life. No more, no less. .50 have now more API... better for pacific, harder for western front. to shoot down and flame foe planes. Where is the problem ? Yak can now suffering dammage by 13.2 MG, is it a so great crime ? only red can win ?

One more time, only modding weapons trying to have more accuracy.... it is my crime, i am here, fire at will...

BTW, i think that the greatest danger for all is to hide all is not declared politcally correct.... this way , has nobody any view or control on what is done..... your force modders like me to be "underground"...... bad thing IMHO.

You will never know what we are doing and for this reason, you just have to be affraid and it maintain suspicion , for all.... that will kill the community, not the mods. Here is the shame. Hidding things are the best way to suspicion and ...... silent modders that will cheating.... not my way, but i am not alone. What i can do with weapons is really simple to do. The difference is so tiny, that i am pretty sure some of you have allready been shot down by modded weapons, and you saw surely nothing.....

ANd BTW, yes, i allready modified a flightmodel.... it was surely the greatest cheat in the net...... i put LI-2 FM on C47....... just, LI2 has no prob with COG as C47 have.... Wow, what a cheat :rolleyes:

Over and out for me.

What? You can’t just make up facts and invent figures as you see fit in order to support you ideas and believes!

The fact that the majority of users are offline is just that, a fact!

All internet users go online? I have cable and use the internet, obviously, but I never go online, anymore. I had very high expectations for online play and ordered a 10/10 connection but after a few days on cowboy dogfight severs and a few “wait one hour to be blown up on the runway by overtaking idi@t” I joined a team but the hours never fitted me so….I saved myself some money and degraded my connection speed.

Now I “put put” happily along in solitude (and a few AI´s OC!) enjoying my Il-2 as the majority of the Il-2 buyers do. Fact!

Regards

Viking

WTF?! Kinda off-the-wall innit?

Anyway, regarding the online/offline polls/percentages discussion. I still think people are individuals and make their own decisions, but the cold, hard truth is that technology continues to advance and the information age makes it easier and easier everyday to access the WWW.

Many years ago, simply getting online (by dial-up of course because that was the ONLY way) was a novelty that took an inordinate amount of time to simply traverse a few pages. Games added online functionality as an afterthought. These days, the multiplayer community is the future of gaming...not just PC gaming but console as well. Even the slowest dial-up connections are fast enough to accommodate most games (flight-sims are the exception to this) and the cost is negligible comparatively. Games and entire genre are being developed for the multiplayer crowd and that is the future.

Some people didn't think cell phones or even television would be successful when introduced and stuck their head in the sand hoping it would just go away.

IMO, the people that purchase this flight-sim represent one of two categories.

1. They purchase it with the knowledge that they wish to go online and play it with/against other humans at some point.

2. They don't really know what it is, or how complex it might be or are really looking for something more like a Crimson Skies arcade air shooter.

Regardless of which category is larger (which I'd still say is cat 1) most all responsible developers are writing their code for the first category anyway and they do it because they are the ones that will spend the most time with it, pushing its limitations, finding bugs and speaking out...in praise or in criticism.

That is the future...and it started a few years ago.


@ billfish, K2...lmao...nice nick.


TB

are you making a joke? Or deliberately doing what you just said you can't do?

Hmmm?....K2 is what everyone has called me r/l for more years then I can recall...Short for Kelly Kristian my given name I refuse to use r/l. Even my husband has always called me K2.

Like I said, wait for it...........There it is and only the beginning (all other sites/groups will follow suit)....Count on it.

Wait for it......

K2

uf_josse... :roll:

There's talk of finding ways of controlling the effects of modding over at AAA. One suggestion is to have one person having sole control over what is and isn't available. Of course, this is un-workable as uf_josse shows. The disgruntled will just set up their own dictatorships, which will continue the process of disgruntlement...

Although un-workable, doesn't the concept ring a bell somewhere? One person saying yes or no to changes... Hme...

Over at AAA;
"Ive got nothing against FM/DM modding, as long as it's the right people who are doing it, MrJolly for example.
If, and I say this on the very very outside chance, if FM/DM models are tweeked, I think it would be a good idea to have only MrJolly perform them. That way we would be pretty safe against a, lets say FW-190Z-17-XFO4 of the empire from star wars . And we would have peace of mind to know that the modding of the FM/DM is in very good, dare I say professinal(?) hands.
Having said this, there's still the danger of cheating in online play. So im thinking that if the FM's are tweeked, couldnt the mod contain a script of somesort that stops the user of the mod from entering online games? Like a firewall or something else."

Here there is one solution offered, that of having some form of file protection included with the mod.

Is it just me...?

Yet what would of "limited it" was lack of "ease" of access to tools......That refused and now a bazillion copies loose.....

Could of not advised everyone and anyone on the hows and whys.....That refused everyone becoming much better educated by the day......

Could of tried to set an example refusing anything that imbalances play......That refused more "official hedges" made by the day........

Could of devoted time to locking up mods into their own versions to not have cross over interaction........That not done.......

The discussion continues on ever creeping toward applying 4.05 work to 4.08, which translates into 4.09, as daily opinions against altering FM/DM/Weapons/etc. soften.......It will be gradual at first, then grow ever more dramatic. This is a very, very old story, people haven't changed.

Wait for it..........

K2

Why requoted/twisted/exagerated? Presumably because they don't fit your "online agenda" there is plenty of evidence pointing to the fact that the majority of sales are to Offliners...none whatsoever to the theory that onliners make up the majority of users...
Do you have any evidence to back up your assertion...other than the somewhat desperate sounding "anyone that has ever been online ever, even for a tiny little bit, is an onliner - because I say so"
Oleg himself stated that his user base was 95% Online
Countless industry polls across all genres show that Online players make up approximately 5% of game sales
Even online polls show that the majority of players are offliners...and i'll leave it for anyone to work out where the bias inherent in that comes from...
Finally...with sales of c400K units if Onliners are in the majority...where the hell are they all?

I don't doubt that there is widespread high-speed broadband access in the more prosperous parts of NW Europe and the United States, but IL2 has always been a game with a broader geographic appeal and you can hardly extrapolate that model across central and south America or Eastern Europe or Russia can you?

Actually quite the contrary, as the most prolific and active groups in HL when I joined were South and Central American......Why I'm rather surprised they're not as now (guessing they moved onto something that supported their languages).

2007 Statistics...

North America 70.2% of the population has access to the internet
Central America 22.4% of the population has access to the internet
South America 18.2% of the population has access to the internet

Like you say...not much difference at all ;)

I'm sorry. Am I missing something? File protection for files that were originally protected, but are now hacked? I find that highly funny.

You know Billfish, I sometimes think that the "Modders" will try to crack, hack, or mod the patch just to see you have a heart attack.

Maybe, just maybe, if you would just shut the f*** up, they just might let you have your cake and eat it too. I just feel you have p*ssed enough people off with your ways and accusations that they will do it (and sad to say maybe even SoW) just to be spitefull. Did you ever think of that? No, I thought not.

BTW, your constent harrasment of 1C and Oleg Maddox's paying customers can get you in alot of legal trouble. If I remember correctly, driving away future and present PAYING customers is illegal in some European countries (in Germany at least). I think it would be for good of future sales of BOTH 1946 and SoW, that maybe 1C should think about a permanent ban for you. Some customers do not like being called cheaters and the such if they decide to use any mod, skins, missions that may be seen as a "hack, cheat, etc" by you.

Just give it a rest.


DerAlte

Billfish, good to know the sky is going to fall a lot slower now.

You anti mod cashews almost had us convinced the sky was going to crush us all immediately.

I guess that since the online numbers are holding and the most vocal anti mod crew....you and a few others, cannot yet say:"SEE I TOLD YA SO!!", it is a good time to retreat to the "WELL IT AIN'T HAPPENED YET BUT IT WILL SOMEDAY, BE SURE!" defense.

Way to go.

Well, I think you should make every effort to bring every legal ramification you are able to bear to impose maximum penalties to set an example around the globe....Naturally you are also more then welcome to start here and all other forums to insure my swift and unrecoverable exile....

On the other hand, I'm supposing that the decryption, alteration and redistribution of copyrighted product & trade secrets with clear deliberate malice as can easily be demonstrated via a simple walk-through on any forum would carry a greater financial consequence as well as the minor ramification on this and other forums solely here to support the designer, manufacturer & distributors product.

Then again, you might want to try your puerile pseudo-legal banter upon someone less experienced then I. ;)

Spiteful on others part has little to do with it, that excuse simply an attempt to justify already established intentions into action.......as only a child acts contrary to defend against their wrongs....and we're not children here....are we?

K2

Big words but hot air...what Software publisher would bring legal action against legitimate purchasers of their software purely for modification of their software for gameplay puposes?

Never going to happen...the furore amongst the software purchasing public would be enough to make Bill gates look like a well loved guy...

Also how would the software publisher be able to demonstrate they had suffered any financial loss if the distribution of modified files is amongst legitimate purchasers of the software...

Are there any examples of Software publishers taking any form of action at all against legitimate purchasers of their software for breach of the EULA?

Is the EULA legally enforcable or would it be considered a coercive agreement?

Oh,it is not "pseudo-legal" as you say. If Ubisoft decided to, I am sure they could cause alot of trouble for the sites that let you spit your venom around. There is a big differance of trying to maybe win in court for a questionable EULA (that most European and American courts say is not legal or binding) and hurting the sales of a product, present or future one.

But you must be a lawyer or something. Does it not get lonely on that soapbox of yours?

Yawn, the sky is falling, the sky is falling. We know. As we say in Germany, "ja ja", every German knows what that really means.


DerAlte

That's all nice speculation, but none of it addresses the issue that the onliners are here - online - and we see these polls and respond to them. I have personally run into players of this game in the real world, who do not play on line, and have no idea that this that or the other forum even exists.

I, for instance, did not know about the Ubi forum at all for the first few years of my IL-2 playing experience. I was mercifully free of the knowledge of the trolls and spammers that inhabit that place. Any so called 'poll' over there would've missed me, even as the others do now because I don't deign to respond.

It is pure fantasy to suppose that this tiny little bunch of bickering trolls represents the player base that allows Oleg to make a living. Do the maths.

cheers,
Ratsack

Good poast RatSack. Who knows how many Offline players besides yourself did not learn about supporting websites while Online players(*) would learn very quickly, by definition.

(*) Say a family has a brother and sister who play FB Offline, and one day Pa sets up a LAN for them. They would now be "online" players or at least "multiplay" but still offline from the larger online world and may never find out about it all. This of course is an interesting but purely theoretical counter-example that is probably safely ignored.


robtek:: Yes, a donated server is a volunteer Pay-to-Play server, which in this sim share the restrictions and limits on immersive features of the "free" servers in the attempt to prevent social cheating behavior through computer coding.


Bear:: In Ussia perhaps. The growing number of people in the rest of the world who are gaining access to game-worthy computers for the first time may not have the new Ussian standards of high speed internets. So we are back to where we started. No matter the numbers made up by anybody here -- if its 50% Offline and 50% Online, they would then have to be willing to share the sim equally, provided the developer is willing to allow them to share.

Welp, I tried....Tried to present ways throughout these threads so some modding group, any group could take a leadership role....Yet none got it, right down to trying to give the modders a way to lay claim to their rights to do this...All refused, so ok, I agree..........Only 5% of all players are onliners.

That said, here is what your forcing of this point generates whether you realize it or not....

To change a system, you must be part of it. Most here as pro-modders claiming to be 100% offliners, most of the balance claiming only rarely to only in the past. Fair enough.

Point blank, anyone claiming to NOT be an onliner instantly whether they realize it or not just devalued their opinions as to the mods and how they affect the gaming community to nill/0/zip/nadda.........Most deffinately you may have an opinion. Sadly however it doesn't count. Anyone here with even a minimal intelligence realizing that you have put yourself into a position of nothing to lose, everything to gain, and feeling no responsibility to the online community as it does not affect you in any way shape or form. Many even clearly stating they point blank "Do NOT Care".

Once again, you may have an opinion, yet to the online community it doesn't count.

So that leaves a supposed 5% of all sales to count....Most here having clearly through numerous posts having stated over and over their on/off line affiliations so everyone else knowing who's opinion is of value in this discussion......As only, I say again, ONLY online players are affected, and therefor have a valid opinion as to modding and its affect upon the simulation online community. They are the only ones at risk here, they are the only ones that must endure any abuse caused by the mods, they are the only ones who in the end and as proven by the numerous pro-modding offliners are concerned for the integrity of the sim knowing the value of online play.

Do not try and now justify the validity of your statements if having claimed to be an offliner, as just as many did by modding in the first place, you have yourself, excluded yourself from having a valuable opinion risking your own play as to the affect of modding on online play.

Congratulations 95%, this is the harvest you have sown. I give in to your number and await the valid 5% to discuss the issue that affects them at hand.

K2

That would have to be the most arrogant post I've seen from you, and it's not worthy of you.

Calm down and think again.

cheers,
Ratsack

Why would I rethink something I have since the beginning of this debate pushed the opposing side to realize. Having waited and rehashed over and over hoping someone would get the hint as they'll naturally not be "told". Why would I continue battling a position with my goal being the detriment of my own positions foundation.....I offered up the chance over and over as did many others, yet the "offline" groups claim is firm.

Nothing arrogant about it....You either risk and therefor have a stake in it, or do not and therefor do not have to live with the effects of it. It's a very simple concept...and if you'll review my posts in virtually everyone, you'll note I discuss responsibility....Responsibility taking ownership, and risking as much if not more.

Responsibility refused, no risk at all........This is not the situation I made, just a simple fact anyone can see.

K2

Ratsack, actually, its fascinating if you think about it. Also revealing from a social behavioral standpoint is the Risk and Responsibility (RR) that BillFish poasted about next.

There does seem to be a growing Online player interest in modding up. The "responsible" Online modders don't visit no-mod servers, but both the mod and no-mod anonymous public server players are taking a "risk" of playing with "irresponsible" Online modders who visit either mod or no-mod anonymous public servers. It appears that even the AAA modders' server, which I think is an anonymous public server, has seen at least one (1) example of mod cheating. If that is the case, then that must be the ultimate PROOF of Online mod cheating :-) and tells us that mod cheating has nothing to do with mods but everything to do with social behavior.

By the "95 Percent" accounting rule, the 95 took on 95% of the financial risk and financial responsibility in Oleg's sim.

It's just a nonsensical and arrogant position. To assert that people who bought the sim have no valid opinion is arrogance of the worst sort. To assert that they have no valid opinion because they don't play in your particular sand pit is not just arrogant, it's ignorant.

I actually wish the sim had never been cracked. But that has nothing to do with the fact that I fly 50-75% of the time off line. As far as I can see, LeB is trying to discredit and discard the opinions of a section of the IL-2 using public. She at first tried to discount them on the grounds that they're not really a majority, and when that didn't fly she's tried to argue they have no 'stake' anyway.

It smacks of debating-team rationalisation. The guts of it is that LeB thinks off liners will generally hold opinions different to hers, so she attempts to discredit or minimize that opinion. It's rude, if nothing else.

cheers,
Ratsack

Wait a frickin minute here.

DerAlte is saying that the publisher should take legal action agianst someone who supports the developer's and publisher's position that decompling the sim (hacking) is theft of intellectual property because that person is hurting future sales?

This is the single most twisted piece of non-logic I have heard in my 54 years on this planet.

Honestly son, did you read you own post?

I have nothing to fire.... you are doing your thing man.. more power to you.. This is what I had to say about you...

Nothing to fire at. Just the facts. I still think however, whether or not you think you are fixing things or regardless to your intentions, and mind you, I don't know you well enough to qualify your intent.. that touching with the DMs,weapons or FMs is a slippery slope and one that totally removes any prospect whatsoever of fair play in a competitive venue where mods are allowed. I can't stop you, I refuse to debate with you, and I certainly am in no opinion to judge YOU.. but I think that my time in this sim, simming in general gives me the rioght to my opinion. I have found that the 50s in this sim are great... Personally I think the problem is not the 50s.. otherwise the 50s on the P-40 would be the same as the 50s on the P-51... and they arent because the planes are different, but the problems can be addressed not by modding the FMs but by changing the way you fly. Klingstroem proved that with is tips on flying the P-51. You say that some of us habve been shot down by modded weapons... but if one h=guy has modded weapons and the other guy does not, can you NOT see where that would be a problem? You and all the other modders are going to do what you want.. and no arguing on my part or anyone elses will change that, neither will my beating you and everyone else upside the head with gripes about the state of affairs at every turn. It is what it is. But I will not let you and all the other modders pi$$ on the sim and call it rain. Hacking the sim has ruined any chance of fair and truly competitive online play. FACT. Does that mean that you or any of the other modders are "bad people" or are cheaters? From my point of view... of course not... and again.. I don't know any of you well enough to judge you or your intent but the fact still remains that hacking the sim has done what it has done... You can defend it, justify it, whatever... but it still doesn't change the facts... just as those who are opposed to the hacks that made modding possible can complain and name call and point fingers till the cows come home... it still doesnt change the FACTs.. the sim is hacked. Now will that stop me from enjoying the sim? Nope.... because for me much of my enjoyment of the sim is offline and the online part has the added element of the great guys from the 99th that I fly with every time I get online and all those who come into our coops or whose coops we enter... in addition to this still great, still awesome, still the BEST D@MN WWII SIM ON THE MARKET flight sim.

So the bottom line is ... don't try to drag me into some debate... I wont bite... the sim is hacked, for the guys who hate it , it sucks... the guys who hacked it ruined the possibilities for true competition online.. for them THAT sucks, and they know it that's why they keep defending themselves... get over it. If you guys are truly men of honor and you truly respect Oleg and his work, then you all will do your best to keep it as pristine as possible.... and try to do your part to make sure that this sim doesn't go the way of every other sim that "benefitted" from being moddable. Don't let that happen to this sim.. and it is truly up to all of you because I don't mod... so where the mods go I have no control over.

And this whole offline online debate is just BS. See the above. The guys who hacked the sim ruined it for any kind of serious online competitive play. So the guys who are gung ho about the mods just need to accept that, stop defending it because it is indefensible, as indefensible as the fact that the SIM IS HACKED is fixable by debate from the anti mod crowd. So GET OVER IT and move on. That whole offline majority enslaved to the will of the tyrannical onliners is just pure unadulterated BULL$HIT. Don't try to justify this with that. At this point as I have been saying, why justify anything..... THE SIM IS HACKED. Like Kelly says.... the things that the anti modders feared will come to pass... and things will continue to go downhill. The only way for this to not happen is if 1C steps in, and even then it will be just a matter of time, or if the community of modders themselves remember the sim the claim to have so much respect for, and try to foster the right attitude. Human nature and history has shown that that dream is .... suspect in the least.

Not at all and you can "misread" into what I say whatever you want, yet the point still stands........

"As far as taking a risk of having ones play disrupted, onliners are the only ones taking that risk"....

No one cares whether or not an offliner uses mods, or hacks their planes to X-wing fighters for that matter......Their sim, they're hurting no one, so what.......Yet it's all to easy for an offliner to say "roll out the mods mild to wild, no one gets cheated" as it does not affect them.

It does onliners only.....and it is that group which can have their play ruined by irresponsible modding generating unfair unable to be detected mods, and aiding those select few that WILL cheat......

So yes, as to modding affecting play for the negative, only onliners the "5%" you all pressed for have justification in stating applicable opinions on.

and if you don't understand that basic concept at this point, then I can't explain it further. Just how it is.

K2

Pretty much says it all really doesn't it!
In essence I concede that I am in the minority, but am arrogant enough to believe that anyones opinion which differs from my own can be dismissed as unimportant...