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- - RAF Bomber crews remembered. Better late than never. (http://forum.fulqrumpublishing.com/showthread.php?t=32886)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II (Post 440300)

you said (and I quote) "Truth is that wartime Germany got what it deserved, no more, no less". That too is a bit of sweeping statement, don't you think?

agree.

yes, I said that. However i didn't say it was a good thing, and I didn't mean it in a nasty 'we gave old Jerry a right good bashing' way either.

My point is that the war had to hapen on German territory. The full horror of war had to be seen by the people. From an allies point of view. The only means available were bombers, and bombers kill civillians. Almost always. Even today.

Conversley i wouldn't object to any German memorial. Memorials are there to remind you of the complete and utter waste of young mens lives over some BS egomania.. On both sides.

Countries should be able to remember the boys who died fighting for some nonsense that the vast majority didn't start, didn't want to be in and ultimately died for. They should also be left to do this wthout people getting all offended by it. It's a memorial ffs. Not a celebration of the bombing of Hamburg.

You can both commemorate the bravery of men who made great sacrifices in a war and at the same time disapprove of the political decisions that led to the war or to particular actions in that war.

The issues are totally separate. Commemorating the men does not necessarily endorse the actions.

It's also important to bear in mind what constitutes "justified" action very much depends on who won war. Here are Robert McNamarra's (US Secretary for Defense under Kennedy and Johnson) controversial comments about the fire bombing on Tokyo that killed 100,000 civilians in one night during the time McNamarra was serving in the XXI Bomber Command under Curtis Lemay.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...62076453370496

Quote:

We burned to death 100,000 Japanese civilians in Tokyo – men, women, and children… [U.S. General] Lemay recognized that what he was doing would be thought immoral if his side had lost … But what makes it immoral if you lose and not immoral if you win? LeMay said ‘if we’d lost the war, we’d all have been prosecuted as war criminals’. And I think he’s right – and I’d say – we were behaving as war criminals. (Robert S. McNamara to interviewer Errol Morris, The Fog of War).

Winny and Galway, thank you for your posts guys, I'm glad we can agree on such an important topic.

I totally agree with Galway.

I have no problem in saying that some German units acted heroically during WW2 - even though I abhor the reason.

The thing with war is that despite the vast numbers of people involved it's a very personal experience, it's your life, your fight to survive.

Individuals acted heroically on both sides time and time again, be it a German unit fighting to the last man to cover the retreat of their comrades, or a 19 year old climbing the ladder into a Lancaster, night after night, knowing what was coming.

So let us remember the men, the youth, the tragedy, waste and heroism.
Without the politics.

And nice one SJ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sammi79 (Post 438693)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-18501658

An emotional day for me and my family, and a great many others.

Overjoyed that their sacrifice is finally recognised.

Mixed with sadness my Grandad (A Lancaster pilot who completed 30+ missions) who lost many close friends didn't live to see it.

No bitterness though, it is way past time to forfeit such ill feeling.

The thing that pleases me most is that it also remembers those who lost their lives in the attacks. I know my Grandad would have approved wholeheartedly, and my tears will be in part for them. A modern and conscientious approach to remembrance. Maybe it is a good thing it waited until now, for that reason. Many, many thanks to all those who campaigned for it, and for the understandably begrudging acceptance from Germany, it means a lot to us all and hints at an evolutionary process in social/political thinking, are we beginning to learn from our past mistakes? I will forever live in hope. It can only bring our countries closer, and strengthen the bonds between us.

Lest we forget.

Now I am going to cry.