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-   -   TBF Avenger and other planes (http://forum.fulqrumpublishing.com/showthread.php?t=229202)

sniperton 04-08-2015 11:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Furio (Post 709287)
Conclusion: in my opinion, Regia Aeronautica is well represented, with most major combat types already available. I would love to see the same ratio for RAF.
I completely agree, but my point was different. Sure we can't have all the planes, sure we don't need those not used, and sure we don't want the obsolate ones. This latter is my concern, the cannon fodder types, together with secondary role aircraft.

Air war is something like a grand opera, with many no-name musicians and backstage workers facilitating the performance, but we only pay attention to the primadonnas. This is okay so far as we play Il-2 as a tactical combat simulation, but if you try to create a dynamic campaign, you'll need some transports, recons, liaison aircrafts, and all those obsolate planes that the given nation used as light bombers to harrass troops, etc.

In this sense only the German and the Soviet plane-set is really well represented. For the rest, there are important functional roles not covered at all. Italy is a good case in point as it is generally well represented, but it still lacks a transport, a recon, an attack plane, and a light bomber.

I don't argue for particular planes. I simply say that this great game would really deserve more than just two basic transport types, and the like. I know that they are only the stage set for the grand opera performance, but still they are important IMHO. :)

gaunt1 04-08-2015 11:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sniperton (Post 709290)
In this sense only the German and the Soviet plane-set is really well represented.
I dont agree fully with the German planeset. Bomber force is awfully represented. Also we missing a few other important planes too: Bf-110C4 flyable, Bf-110F, Ju-88C, Me-410 for example.

Furio 04-08-2015 11:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sniperton (Post 709290)
I completely agree, but my point was different. Sure we can't have all the planes, sure we don't need those not used, and sure we don't want the obsolate ones. This latter is my concern, the cannon fodder types, together with secondary role aircraft.

Air war is something like a grand opera, with many no-name musicians and backstage workers facilitating the performance, but we only pay attention to the primadonnas. This is okay so far as we play Il-2 as a tactical combat simulation, but if you try to create a dynamic campaign, you'll need some transports, recons, liaison aircrafts, and all those obsolate planes that the given nation used as light bombers to harrass troops, etc.



In this sense only the German and the Soviet plane-set is really well represented. For the rest, there are important functional roles not covered at all. Italy is a good case in point as it is generally well represented, but it still lacks a transport, a recon, an attack plane, and a light bomber.

I don't argue for particular planes. I simply say that this great game would really deserve more than just two basic transport types, and the like. I know that they are only the stage set for the grand opera performance, but still they are important IMHO. :)
Here I agree with you. To devote precious development time to secondary types may seem a waste, but we should keep in mind that AI only would be required, without cockpit and crew station. A non-flyable, AI only S82, for example, would spare at least four crew stations and a two-seat cockpit, the smaller Ca313 at least three stations.

What types would be a logical and wise choice? For a tactical recon type, the Ro37 stands out. The Ca313 would fulfil various roles: recon, light bombing, liaison, and coastal patrol. The Breda 65 would be an interesting addition for North Africa. Sure enough, nobody will ever debate about their “uber” or “porked” performances!

sniperton 04-08-2015 01:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gaunt1 (Post 709292)
I dont agree fully with the German planeset. Bomber force is awfully represented. Also we missing a few other important planes too: Bf-110C4 flyable, Bf-110F, Ju-88C, Me-410 for example.
What I meant is that although some important individual types might be missing, the main roles are covered, so that if you need a transport, you have one, if you need a recon, you have one, if you need a light bomber, you have one, etc, etc.

DuxCorvan 04-08-2015 02:16 PM
Of all the nations involved, French planes are probably the most underrepresented in the game.

sniperton 04-08-2015 02:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Furio (Post 709293)
What types would be a logical and wise choice? For a tactical recon type, the Ro37 stands out. The Ca313 would fulfil various roles: recon, light bombing, liaison, and coastal patrol. The Breda 65 would be an interesting addition for North Africa. Sure enough, nobody will ever debate about their “uber” or “porked” performances!
Yep, these seem reasonable, together with SM.82. The community and campaign creators have already 'voted' for planes, as can be seen by simply looking around among the hack skins at mission4today and elsewhere: you'll find Tupoljev SB as Ca31X; R-10 as Breda 65, Ju 52 as SM.82, Po-2 as Ro37, Hs-123 as Cr.32 (in the ground attack role). On might say, though, that so far we can substitute missing plane types with existing ones there's no reason to complain... :-P

sniperton 04-08-2015 02:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DuxCorvan (Post 709295)
Of all the nations involved, French planes are probably the most underrepresented in the game.
This has something to do with the fact that France surrendered after 4 weeks, a very short timespan for French planes to see combat on the allied side. Vichy France as an axis country would be a different story (e.g. against Britain). The Free French mostly used British and American equipment. Some French planes like the D.520 were used by Italy, Romania, and Bulgaria, and it would be great indeed to have them (as we do have those used by Finland).

Furio 04-08-2015 05:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sniperton (Post 709297)
This has something to do with the fact that France surrendered after 4 weeks, a very short timespan for French planes to see combat on the allied side. Vichy France as an axis country would be a different story (e.g. against Britain). The Free French mostly used British and American equipment. Some French planes like the D.520 were used by Italy, Romania, and Bulgaria, and it would be great indeed to have them (as we do have those used by Finland).
Add an unbelievable variety of types, as the Armée de l’Air was caught in the middle of an almost complete reorganization, with many squadron replacing their obsolete types. They probably fielded five fighter types (Ms406, D.520, Mb151, C.714, Curtiss Hawk) and had many more under development and production, such as the Arsenal Vg33. For bombers, it was even worse: Amiot 143 and 340, Bloch 131, 175 and 210, Breguet 693, Farman F222 and 223, Loire Nieuport LN401, Lioré et Olivier Leo 451, plus Douglas DB7 and Martin Baltimore…:(

majorfailure 04-08-2015 06:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sniperton (Post 709290)
I completely agree, but my point was different. Sure we can't have all the planes, sure we don't need those not used, and sure we don't want the obsolate ones. This latter is my concern, the cannon fodder types, together with secondary role aircraft.

Air war is something like a grand opera, with many no-name musicians and backstage workers facilitating the performance, but we only pay attention to the primadonnas. This is okay so far as we play Il-2 as a tactical combat simulation, but if you try to create a dynamic campaign, you'll need some transports, recons, liaison aircrafts, and all those obsolate planes that the given nation used as light bombers to harrass troops, etc.

In this sense only the German and the Soviet plane-set is really well represented. For the rest, there are important functional roles not covered at all. Italy is a good case in point as it is generally well represented, but it still lacks a transport, a recon, an attack plane, and a light bomber.

I don't argue for particular planes. I simply say that this great game would really deserve more than just two basic transport types, and the like. I know that they are only the stage set for the grand opera performance, but still they are important IMHO. :)
Many roles can bes substituted, does not matter if you shoot down a low performance floatplane of the exact type - or if you shoot down a low performing floatplane that looks roughly similar. Agree about some other types, a few more transports to chose from would not hurt.

And while we are at Primadonnas, I'd love to see the G55 as flyable.

RPS69 04-08-2015 08:21 PM
Your approach is a dogfight one.
On a campaign approach, someone must fly those secondary types you despise, but were much more important than pure fighter ones. They decided more battles than any fighter, and they represented life and death for fallen fighter pilots.
Try to read the german float plane missions over the black sea, or the storch scouting on the eastern front. Those guys got more balls and skill than any fighter pilot.

BTW, I agree that the french planes are really badly represented. One or two more types won't hurt, more than any british or american type.

And yes, obsolette or failure planes, like the fairey battle, were the only option available, and were what the pilots flyed at the time.

Trying to win a campaign with what there was available, is the real game.


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