Originally Posted by Crumpp (Post 402831)

Was there enough 100/150 grade to cover all sorties flown? Yes

1)We all know what happened when the same group of people started using the logic on that one.

2)The next thing you seem to refuse to deal with is 87 grade remains the predominate fuel in the RAF until September 1940. Only then do we see 100 grade beginning to equal 87 grade. That corresponding rise in consumption very much agrees with Morgan and Shacklady.

Originally Posted by Glider (Post 402917)

The heat is rising again

The latest focus of conversation is the fuel that was used.

We know that Bomber Command did approx 10,600 combat sorties during the BOB (data from Bomber Command Diary page 91, period 26 June to 13 October) plus a lot of training flights number unknown. I don't pretend to know the size of the tanks on Bomber Command aircraft but can safely assume that they are a lot bigger than a SE fighter.

Crump
The question I have is simple, do you agree that they would have used 87 octane until late August / September when they were allowed to use 100 Octane as per the paper I posted?

Edit
For the period 10 May to 25th June BC undertook approx 5,100 sorties

Originally Posted by Crumpp (Post 402940)

http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php...=1#post3217673

http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php...=1#post3358320



-Berger, Monty and Street, Brian Jeffrey.Invasion Without Tears. Toronto, Canada: Random House, 1994 (1st ed) ISBN 0-394-22277-6

Originally Posted by Crumpp (Post 401119)

NZTyphoon, Once again.....

In the pursuit of gamers proving 100/150 grade was the standard fuel of the RAF, documents were produced that showed hundreds of thousand of tons of the fuel being moved around various stations and brought into the RAF logistical system in anticipation of the fuel being adopted.

The operational use turned out to be extremely limited and for a very short period of time before it was withdrawn from service.

Originally Posted by Kurfürst (Post 398817)

As noted, the whole story ever increasingly reminds old participants of the 150 grade-fiasco of lane and co. The agenda of 'all the RAF fighter Command was using 150 grade' was pressed with the same fortitude, documents were manipulated and doctored for support the same, until documentary evidence become clear and it turned out that 'all +25 lbs Mark IXs using 150 grade' were in fact but two Sqns on operational trials, the '+25 lbs Mk XIVs' lane was pushing for never existed due to technical troubles, those '+25 RAF Mustang IIIs of the RAF in 1944' were again just two Sqns who have seen the enemy about twice, once over France and once over the North Sea, were and proposed use of 150 grade in the 2nd TAF's IX units was recalled after a month of operation in 1945 - a fact that lane still omits from his website articles. ;)

The 100 octane story/agenda is the same, with the same old origins, methods and smokescreen - though I am sure its can be presented as better case than what turned out to be the truth about 150 grade (giggles).

Originally Posted by Kurfürst (Post 251256)

Not accounting for non-operational flights (I've just checked the link given for old RAF records, one of the ORB's, iirc for 56 Sqn states that 159 non-operational - ie. training, setup - flying hours were accumlated by the Squadron in the first week of August 1940 alone.

This roughly translates to 25-30 tons of avgas, for a single fighter Squadron, for a week, or about 100-120 tons per month if the first week of August was typical. How many Fighter Squadrons were there, 60 or so..? Works out at roughly 6-7000 tons per month for the entire comand. And at this point not a single operational sortie was flown yet..

It does not take into account bombers that consumed many times that of a fighter on a single sortie, or non operational flight. Its a good educated guess that a single bomber Squadron would consume about 5 times as much avgas than a fighter Squadron - and we know some Blenheim Squadrons were involved. How much fuel that would be, say 500 tons of avgas per month per Bomber Squadron? With just two Blenheim Squadrons we are at 1000 tons for non-operational flights. So we are 7-8000 tons with the two Blenheim Squadrons a month.

It does not account for requirements for engine manufacturers to test run engines etc. IIRC in 1944 the British aviation industry required some 2000 tons of 150 grade avgas per month for testing, run-in purposes. Engines have to run-in, and so do newly produced aircraft.. let's assume they needed the same amount in 1940m too. Engines have to be run in before they are safe for full power - the Germans iirc prescribed 15 hours for DB 605AM running time before full ratings could be used and there wouldn't be too much wear or risk of failure. Lets assume 15 hours for the RAF in 1940, which received about 500 new fighters a month, and probably twice the number of engines, at low-power consumption of 25 gallons/hour. That's 15x1000x25=ca. 1700 tons per month.. pretty close.

Hmm. We have 10 000 tons of 100 octane per month, assuming 60 Fighter Squadrons and 2 Blenheim Squadrons are using 100 octane and flying regular non-operational missions, and that the manufacturers also run-in their engines and planes properly instead of placing a 'Hope you get lucky' sticker on them upon delivery.

But at this point, not a single flight was made against the Luftwaffe using 100 octane fuel.

Trouble is, according to the consumption figures, for example in August 1940 an avarage of 10 000 tons of 100 octane was consumed for all the above purposes AND operational flights. There's simply not enough high octane fuel for all that for all Squadrons, hence why about 2/3s-3/4 of the consumption is 87 octane.

Of course the figures above are just a rough guess, but then again simply dividing fuel/hurri tank capacity is even rougher..

Originally Posted by NZtyphoon (Post 402951)

Post #784

How much 100 octane fuel was needed to fly all 53,146 defensive sorties flown by FC to October 6? Total = 15,184 tons of fuel

total 100 Octane fuel issued between July 11 and October 31 = 62,000 tons:

fuel consumed July 1 - Oct 31 = 51,000 tons - 16,563 tons = 35,816 tons available for other purposes.

Originally Posted by NZtyphoon (Post 402943)

What have either of these two replies got to do with fuel stockpiles or any of the other nonsense Crumpp has been spouting?

Originally Posted by NLS61 (Post 403004)

How much was destroyed du to enemy action?