Official Fulqrum Publishing forum

Official Fulqrum Publishing forum (http://forum.fulqrumpublishing.com/index.php)
-   IL-2 Sturmovik: Cliffs of Dover (http://forum.fulqrumpublishing.com/forumdisplay.php?f=189)
-   -   If UBI's DRM scheme is unacceptable... (http://forum.fulqrumpublishing.com/showthread.php?t=18109)

Tacoma74 01-14-2011 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by addman (Post 212048)
Interesting reasoning going on here. Some claim DRM is a way for the publishers to control how the people play, how does that make ANY sense from ANY perspective?LOL! I don't now wether to laugh or cry at the DRM haters, I'll mention a few common "anti-DRM" arguments:

1. I don't have a stable internet connection so I can't play if I'm offline.
In this case that argument flies right out the door since it seems the game only requires online ACTIVATION. I presume most of you know what activation means. Now, IF the game will need to be AUTHENTICATED online whilst playing it then it might be a problem for some people. Now, in most developed countries even the slowest DSL connection is stable enough, I have an 8Mbit DSL connection and it drops about 1 time/2 months, I restart the modem ca 10-20 sec and it works again. If you are living in a developing country then I can see some issues of course.

2. I want to be able to play the game on the go (offline).
Hmm, who plays a flightsim "on the go"? I sometimes bring my Nintendo DS or PSP around on trips or whatever but even those are cumbersome and especially the PSP takes a good time to load some games. So if you are on a business trip or something you actually bring your huge-*ss gaming laptop with you? You're gonna need a joystick, where do you put your HOTAS or even a "smaller" joystick? in your back pocket? They won't even fit in a small suitcase! Ok, presume you DO bring all that stuff with you on your trips, most hotels (even cheaper ones) have free Wlan.

There are more arguments of course. Why is there DRM? To scare off customers? I don't think so, customers=€. DRM exists because of rampant piracy. Piracy has basically destroyed the Sony PSP and the Nintendo DS and it's not helping PC gaming by any means. The XBox 360 and the PS3 gets firmware updates regularely that makes sure you don't have a hardware modified consoles. Also, if you want to be able to play Call of Duty: Black Ops online -most people play it online- you need a valid copy. Latest is that security loopholes in the PS3 hardware/software have been discovered by some self-justified hacker group. They claim -of course- that it's good for those who want to use homebrew apps on their PS3 but we all know what the reason really is.

Point is, DRM is there to protect from piracy so that the games will generate enough profit for a + figure on the publishers/developers accounts so that they may CONTINUE to produce and publish games. Those of you who don't like DRM, fine! don't buy the game and don't play the game. You might as well stop posting on this forum since you wont play the game when it's released -what's the point really?-. As for me, I'm gonna get the "edition for the few", install it and play it for -hopefully- many years to come. DRM doesn't bother me in any way, but that's just me and this is me being subjective ;)

+1

There were also accounts of people running into problems with program compatibility issues. Things like iTunes and such not working with Ubi's DRM on other games. My opinion: You must be crazy to pass up this masterpiece of a sim just so you can have those crappy programs. CoD will be of the highest priority on my system hands down.

robtek 01-14-2011 01:58 PM

I really, really don't understand why there are people still believing that DRM pevents piracy.

Wake up!!!
No DRM has protected any software against piracy!

Usually the pirated copys are leaked before DRM is even implemented.
If that didn't happen the "super-safe-protection" is cracked within days (SHV), leaving the legal owner with a almost unusable Software (SHV-Servers)
and the users of pirated copys went scot-free.

Just remember this saying: The price of security is freedom.

Give the legal owners something the pirates can't give and you have won.

Wolf_Rider 01-14-2011 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by addman (Post 212053)

One time activation should be "doable" for most people. Constant authentication might be a problem for some. Should that be the consensus?

err, no... it shouldn't be "the consensus".
There shouldn't be a problem with having to activate/ deactivate and authenticate.

Blackdog made some good points, but I feel hasn't hasn't taken legitimate hardware/ complete system upgrade into account. One active key for two different hardware setups would raise the flag, hence the need for a "deactivation". On re-activating (in the case of a system upgrade) would match signup information, and if legit, would give the go ahead. Similar for a partial hardware upgrade.
As well, a verification check for game patch, would determine if the file structure/ files are legit and safe to patch.

Trumper 01-14-2011 04:13 PM

If the game is sensibly priced so that the majority can afford the original version then why bother with piracy.
You will ALWAYS have those that won't pay you can't legislate for that BUT you can reduce their popularity by pricing so it's not an attractive option.
Cheesing off the majority to fight a minority is just daft.
If that happened it may encourage more people to wait a year or so to see what happens and get it cheaper in the sales when all the bugs have been ironed out.

Avimimus 01-14-2011 04:52 PM

Btw. It is worth noting that the first generations of flight sims were produced with less DRM and markets that were many times smaller. In fact, flight sims were much more popular when the markets were tiny in the 1990s.

Of course, the amount of labour required and overall fidelity was also lower (smaller budgets) - but we shouldn't pretend that the genre won't exist without invasive DRM.

Avimimus 01-14-2011 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wolf_Rider (Post 212104)
err, no... it shouldn't be "the consensus".
There shouldn't be a problem with having to authenticate.

Blackdog made some good points, but I feel hasn't hasn't taken legitimate hardware/ complete system upgrade into account. One active key for two different hardware setups would raise the flag, hence the need for a "deactivation". On re-activating (in the case of a system upgrade) would match signup information, and if legit, would give the go ahead. Similar for a partial hardware upgrade.
As well, a verification check for game patch, would determine if the file structure/ files are legit and safe to patch.

Try going to most rural or remote community in Canada - you can't even get dial-up. Just because it isn't your experience doesn't mean it is non-existent.

I'd also argue that automatic patching is anathema to flight sims. We often customise our installs very carefully (with mods, with skins or simply with setting changes). It is a really bad idea to let some exhausted staff member enter your machine and rebuild your install...

I've also had issues with the Rise of Flight forced autopatching system - not only was it incompatible with my older hardware (prior to the release of a hotfix), but system requirements have gradually climbed to the point where I can no longer run the sim.

There is this myopia that says we all have high-speed connections, we all fly online, we all have new hardware, we all buy our games, play them through twice and discard them like FPS junkies and we'd all use pirated copies if we could. None of it is true.

yellonet 01-14-2011 06:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by addman (Post 212048)
Interesting reasoning going on here. Some claim DRM is a way for the publishers to control how the people play, how does that make ANY sense from ANY perspective?LOL! I don't now wether to laugh or cry at the DRM haters, I'll mention a few common "anti-DRM" arguments:

It's even more interesting to see people that defend the use of DRM, as they've obviously swallowed the whole concept as the publishers present it, hook line and sink.
Why someone would trust a large company whose sole purpose is to make money over their fellow customers views - who probably have the same goal in mind - is frankly beyond me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by addman (Post 212048)
1. I don't have a stable internet connection so I can't play if I'm offline.
In this case that argument flies right out the door since it seems the game only requires online ACTIVATION. I presume most of you know what activation means. Now, IF the game will need to be AUTHENTICATED online whilst playing it then it might be a problem for some people. Now, in most developed countries even the slowest DSL connection is stable enough, I have an 8Mbit DSL connection and it drops about 1 time/2 months, I restart the modem ca 10-20 sec and it works again. If you are living in a developing country then I can see some issues of course.

If there's only a one time activation and absolutely nothing more, that's likely fine for most people, but something like that isn't really DRM.

Quote:

Originally Posted by addman (Post 212048)
2. I want to be able to play the game on the go (offline).
Hmm, who plays a flightsim "on the go"? I sometimes bring my Nintendo DS or PSP around on trips or whatever but even those are cumbersome and especially the PSP takes a good time to load some games. So if you are on a business trip or something you actually bring your huge-*ss gaming laptop with you? You're gonna need a joystick, where do you put your HOTAS or even a "smaller" joystick? in your back pocket? They won't even fit in a small suitcase! Ok, presume you DO bring all that stuff with you on your trips, most hotels (even cheaper ones) have free Wlan.

See, already you're grasping for straws for arguments to support these kind of systems that prevent the customer to use the software where and when they like.
It's not about how many people that use it like this, it's about the principle that the publishers are moving towards more and more control over how you use the product you paid them to use.
It's not like anyone would buy a car that they could only drive between 7 and 12 and only fill up with gas on select stations. The point being, when you buy something you should be able to use it as you see fit. Not as the seller decides for you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by addman (Post 212048)
There are more arguments of course. Why is there DRM? To scare off customers? I don't think so, customers=€. DRM exists because of rampant piracy. Piracy has basically destroyed the Sony PSP and the Nintendo DS and it's not helping PC gaming by any means. The XBox 360 and the PS3 gets firmware updates regularely that makes sure you don't have a hardware modified consoles. Also, if you want to be able to play Call of Duty: Black Ops online -most people play it online- you need a valid copy. Latest is that security loopholes in the PS3 hardware/software have been discovered by some self-justified hacker group. They claim -of course- that it's good for those who want to use homebrew apps on their PS3 but we all know what the reason really is.

Of course DRM isn't there to scare off customers, and no one suggested that either.
And yeah, Nintendo DS is being destroyed, what a joke! The DS is a complete success story and makes loads of money for Nintendo.
When we're already on the topic of consoles, one of the reasons why the Playstation became so popular was because it was so easy to get hold of pirate copies of games, it was technically inferior to the N64 at the time and had crappier controls, still it was a major success, and that continued with the Playstation 2 where the games where just as easy to come by cheap.
Piracy is far from the negative force that the developers and publishers wants us to think.

Quote:

Originally Posted by addman (Post 212048)
Point is, DRM is there to protect from piracy so that the games will generate enough profit for a + figure on the publishers/developers accounts so that they may CONTINUE to produce and publish games. Those of you who don't like DRM, fine! don't buy the game and don't play the game. You might as well stop posting on this forum since you wont play the game when it's released -what's the point really?-. As for me, I'm gonna get the "edition for the few", install it and play it for -hopefully- many years to come.

Actually no, DRM is not to combat piracy. DRM stands for Digital Rights Management, in essence it's a common name for different bits of software that are designed to manage your digital rights of the software that you've bought a license for.
DRM is often used with movies and music for instance, deciding - for you - on which player you can play it or perhaps if you can transfer the movie/music to different media than the original one.
Pirates will crack the DRM and then it's out of the picture, so no DRM is not to fight piracy but to enforce the publishers view of how you should use the software.

Quote:

Originally Posted by addman (Post 212048)
DRM doesn't bother me in any way, but that's just me and this is me being subjective ;)

And that's fine. But you should also respect people that are against DRM.

Wolf_Rider 01-14-2011 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avimimus (Post 212168)

Try going to most rural or remote community in Canada - you can't even get dial-up. Just because it isn't your experience doesn't mean it is non-existent.

I'd also argue that automatic patching is anathema to flight sims. We often customise our installs very carefully (with mods, with skins or simply with setting changes). It is a really bad idea to let some exhausted staff member enter your machine and rebuild your install...

I've also had issues with the Rise of Flight forced autopatching system - not only was it incompatible with my older hardware (prior to the release of a hotfix), but system requirements have gradually climbed to the point where I can no longer run the sim.

There is this myopia that says we all have high-speed connections, we all fly online, we all have new hardware, we all buy our games, play them through twice and discard them like FPS junkies and we'd all use pirated copies if we could. None of it is true.


I hate to rain on your parade there buddy, but how did you extrapolate all that from my post you quoted?

out in the rural or remote community of Canada? how do they get their email then?



@yellownet

the oignal part you probably missed was, "2. I want to be able to play the game on the go (offline)."
and the response was "Hmm, who plays a flightsim "on the go"? I sometimes bring my Nintendo DS or PSP around on trips or whatever but even those are cumbersome and especially the PSP takes a good time to load some games. So if you are on a business trip or something you actually bring your huge-*ss gaming laptop with you? You're gonna need a joystick, where do you put your HOTAS or even a "smaller" joystick? in your back pocket? They won't even fit in a small suitcase! Ok, presume you DO bring all that stuff with you on your trips, most hotels (even cheaper ones) have free Wlan."

You've done yourself a misservice with your response to that

let me ask you on your "The point being, when you buy something you should be able to use it as you see fit."; do you complain because you have to use nVidia drivers with nVidia cards, and have no option to use ATI instead... and vica versa? Or, (this bit is for Avimimus as well) with your shiny new car... that you've replaced the engine and running gear with the engine and running gear from another manufacturer and wonder why the dealer you've bought car from won't honour your shop warranty?

KG26_Alpha 01-14-2011 09:01 PM

When you buy retailed software you are not buying the software its self, just the right to use it.

The company would be mad to actually sell you their software they have spent years and hundreds of thousands/millions on for peanuts :)

You only own the right to use it under their terms and conditions.




.

Wolf_Rider 01-14-2011 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KG26_Alpha (Post 212285)

When you buy retailed software you are not buying the software its self, just the right to use it.

You only own the right to use it under their terms and conditions.


We do keep trying to get that across... yet something seems to go missing on the way.
Does anyone actually read the EULA, that thing you have to agree to for the install to proceed?


All times are GMT. The time now is 02:17 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2007 Fulqrum Publishing. All rights reserved.