True about taking over moscow, would be really hard...but Millions of casualties would of resulted imo even if the USSR did end up winning...Would be devistating for both sides.

OOOPS: SORRY!!

It was 6,8 MILLION SOVIET KIA (not 7.8!) Vs 4,3 million AXIS KIA!!!

Such losses must come with every great victory.

Since the whole reason behind WW2 was not about a usual war there was NO chance at all that Germany could win.

Hands down. This kind of point "could have Germany won" is moot. Why? Cause there was no way Germany could have achieved its goals. Even under best conditions. Evn whenyou you asume they would have captured Stalingrad, Moscow, the oil fields of Baku/Kaukasus. There was no chance to "win" the goals Hitler decided for Germany. Which are the complete destruction of the Jewish / communistic ploting. This would have sooner or later meant a conflict with any other nation at some point. Most important the US. But also Canada, South America, Africa (midle east). When would the Germans have achieved their goals and most important when would someone like Hitler made peace ? After Britain was defeated ? Doubtful. Conquering of Russia? Even if the Whermacht would have achieved a glorious victory in the east they had no option to hold the teritory for long without more wars and keeping their own German economy in a always war like situation. The German state was bankrupt. Only war in 1939 saved the German Reich from a inflation and mass layof that would have toped the time of 1918.

Eh no. Thats inacurate. Hitler tourned his interest to Russia before any conflict with the USA was even apparent one idea was to stay as long as possible neutral to the USA as long at least Britain was not defeated and one reason to attack Russia was to defeat Britain (the idea was without Russia Britain would have no more reason to continue the war though that was a wrong misconception as we know today). One of his targets was always a conquering of the east ~ see Hitlers history "Mein Kampf" as best example. Why in 1942 Hitler declared a war to the US is even today a question for many historians ~ it had nothing to do with Japan though. The Luftwaffe loost already in 1941 the battle over Britain which is known today since the British airfoce managed to shoot down more planes then the Luftware could replace not to mention the number of pilots they loost as the battle was over British ground. So any landing (see the planing for Operation Sea Lion) would have been extremly risky and done without complete Air superiority and adding to that the Wehrmacht had no experience with landing operations. Not of such a scale. And Hitler hasnt seen much interest in Africa for example or parts of it thinking about it as one of the mistakes from WW1 and the colonialism as he thought that not the African soil was of German interest but the east. But this was one of the grounds the British had a lot of success. At least against the Italian troops. Same to greece which in retourn was a reason for a delay of operation Barbarossa so the Wehrmacht could help the Italian forces on the Balkan region and in Greece. I think the delay was about 5 weeks or something. The fighting in Greece was also one of the few cases where Waffen SS units received limited honor by British troops for their excelent fighting.

Or the tanks, radios, amunition, knowledge (from their inteligence service, both British and US) planes, locomotives and a lot more.

Even Stalin acknowledged to Zhukov once in a discussion. Without the leand lease they would have probably loost the war ~ as said if that would really have been the matter is a different question. Its just to show the importance of the economic support.

If the preasure by the Germans would not have been high even during 1942/43 Stalin would not have persisted so much on opening a second (or if you want third) front in the west:
D-Day to Victory
"Final plans for invasion took some time to establish. Stalin argued strongly for a new front in the West, wanting to relieve pressure on Russian forces in the east. America also, showed great eagerness for an invasion of France. Churchill was however more reluctant. Knowing that a failed invasion would leave the whole of Europe at the mercy of tyranny (Communist or Fascist) and distrusting the Soviets because of their complicity in the invasion of Poland, the British Prime Minister was able persuade the US to postpone the invasion until 1944. This was to allow the Americans and British time to establish air superiority and defeat the U-boat fleet in the Atlantic, thereby allowing them to freely bombard Nazi-occupied Europe and build up troop numbers and supplies to more formidable levels. Eventually, the Russians were promised an invasion by Summer of 1944."

This went even so far that Stalin directly insulted Allied commanders they should not be such "cowards".

you mean they come with hastily decisions.

How I see it there have been 2 big reasons for the high looses of the Sovietunion. The first was the maxime of the "total war" which did not just started in 1943 as preached by Goebels to his people but started in the east already since the first day. Many times the German military made no difference between civilians or military personal and we know today that millions died as POWs in provisional German camps in the east since the German Reich simply had neither the will nor the resources to support the millions of soviet POW. They also many times engagned in killing everything they seen as threat (including communists and jews) regardless if they have been civlians or captured military personal the order by the German command was that no east european deserved mercy. Which was of clear diference to the way how the German Reich has seen the French and British population.

The second reason in my eyes was the many times Stalin and his generals without any remorse forbid the civilians for example to evacuate certain locations or gave very expensive orders. Like shown in Leningrad or Stalingrad. For almost 4 years most of the fighting in the east happend on over Soviet areas which means civlian looses have been substantialy higher compared to for example Germany or the US which in particular only had military looses and almost no civlians (an exception are the Philipines and Hawaii of course as here have been many US american civlians present). Operations like Kursk for example proved to be sometimes very expensive for the Soviets in the looses of men. One example that can be named here is the Battle of Prokhorovka in Kursk. Certain sources say that the loos in tanks for example was for the Germans between 3 and 60 where the Soviets loost 200 and 300 armored vehicles which included many times the T34-76 but also many more light weight vehicles and as well the KV1. The loos of men is believed (aprox) to be between 500 for the Germans and around 5000~ for the Russians. This big diference wasnt even unoticed by the Soviet HQ and gave even them a head ache. There have been plans to punish the leader of the 5th Guards Tank Army as with the first sight of heavy looses he gave the order to send all armored units even his reserve right in to the German front and guns. Though cause of popaganda reasons (Kursk as whole was a tactical victory for the Soviets) any punishment was exposed to the commander.

Another not less important reason for the high looses been the haste of which Soviet troops rushed in to German lines. Stalin promoted openly competition between his Generals which can be seen very nicely in 1945 between Zhukov 1st Belorussian Front and Konev comanding the Fourth Ukrainian Front of who would be the first one to attack and capture Berlin (Stalin gave later Zhukov the favour of capturing Berlin).

In the east it was anyway very hard to make a clear difference between civlians and military personal cause of the big partisan movements which have been many times civlians lead by a military officer by the red army left behind from retrating forces.

I would like to see the figures of that. Not that I am saying its incorect but those numbers seem a bit wonky (particularly since the DRK ~ German red corss) gives numbers of 3.800 000 Million killed and missing men for the German Wehrmacht which is somewhat close to the Numbers of the OKW ~ Wehrmacht himself. The Soviet numbers present only Military personal I guess. But its very hard to give any numbers anway. Recording was on both sides poor. Particularly the further the war was going.


I find the oppinion of some here the Allies or western nations did nothing or very few in the defeat of the German military a bit disturbing ignoring eventualy the combat in Africa, France, Italy and most important the situations in Greece for example which caused a delay of Operation Barbarossa. It was Mahnstein I think which said once that it have been those "5 weeks in front of moscow" that have cost them the war in the east ~ if that is true or not is another story but it shows the importance of allied actions even if they have been small. But many small operations make for a biger pictures. Many operations happend in the east and with a scale and size like never seen before. But I think its not right to deny any allied forces their part in the war. Who did how much is in the end to the big picture irelevant. And in the end we should do it like the veterans. They dont ask who did more or less. Whos wrong or right. And If some of them as the people which have seen the trenches and horrorible conditions can come together after 60 years. Feel as friends and honor each other. Why cant we ?

How can Russia respect America or Britain when we were never given much respect. Patton wanted to get to Berlin first, but we deserved Berlin as we lost so many of our people. They did not even land untill after millions of deaths. I would not mind if Germany and Japan conquered the west. The west has surrounded our country with anti missile stations, and gave guns to our enemies in the 70s and 80s. Why shouldn't we hate the west? If it were up to me I would have taken Alaska back, just to make things even.

that a serious question ... :confused: cause hate is bad for you, mkay. Never watched Star Wars ? Dark side and all. No hate. Its bad for you mkay.


To be more serious parts of the things you mention sound to me like propaganda. The same happend in the west during the *50s you know the evil comunist empire and all, Reggan area. Or McCarthynism. Letz not go in to that ground. Thats nothing more but unhistorical and unethical comparisions. Who was worse. Who made the bigest lies. Who is the worse (sub)human and has the better politics. In the end we arrived at 2010. Without nuclear war. Thats all what counts. Its not 1910 anymore. And all systems that only go for the extrem proved to be either corrupt or flawed ~ which includes American Capitalism just as it does Soviet Comunism. Durint the cold war it was for both systems important to keep the population at bay and fear proved to be here a valuable tool. Sadly many of the politic phrases by both sides still roam inside the heads of a view people. I know Americans, Russians, Kaukasians, Indians, and quite a lot of moslems. Its all the same to me. What do I care from where they come or what their nations did. Its the people one should value. Not their history. Or the lack of it. I know my deal. Such thinking and bigotry killed a lot of people on the balkan. And it never did anything good. You know some serbian guy just has to go to the crotian he has as neighbour and slize his throat open cause a croatian killed in 1945 his grandfather. I dont see the reason behind that.

*But just about Patton. He was Nuts. And people knew that. It was usefull as long the war was going but he got removed quite fast from service after that and some believe he even comited suicide. Also Berlin was left to the Reds if you remember history carefully. The US did gave the Soviets Berlin for as they rushed to Bavaria and the Alps after the victory on the Rhine in fear of eventualy hidding remenant forces and most important to aquire any technology / scientists that have been left behind by the German Reich ~

In 1945 "national redoubt" was the English term used to describe the possibility that German dictator Adolf Hitler and armed forces of Nazi Germany (Wehrmacht) would make a last stand in the alpine areas of Austria, Bavaria and northern Italy in the closing months of World War II in Europe. In German this concept was called the Alpenfestung (Alpine Fortress). Although there was some German military planning for a stand in the Alpine region, it was never fully endorsed by Hitler and no serious attempt was made to put the plan into operation.

I believe in total the Germans lost 3,6 million on the Eastern front + 600k dead Axis soldiers and collaborators.

Source is Deutsche militariche verluste am Zweite Weltskrieg.

This is off topic of what you guys are talking about :P...but...

I was wondering why my game is a bit laggy?

PC SPECS:
Nvidia 9800 gt
2.20 GHZ AMD Phenom 9550 Quad-Core Processor
6GB RAM
Windows Vista (x64) (could this be the problem)?

Now, I run on Medium settings pretty much on everything, no antialising, no nothing...But I still get lag. Anyone know what's up?

Americans got some Russian soldiers killed 16 years ago. We can not cooperate with them if they do not trust each other. I'll never forget that day when given coordinates were thought false. I'm not going to trust them.

probably the processor. Turn down ur graphic settings 2 minimum. If this doesn't give a very sizeable performance increase, it is definitely your processor which is the bottleneck.