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NZtyphoon 03-06-2012 11:55 PM

As I recall from earlier postings...
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurfürst (Post 393783)
Now, anyone who searches back in this thread will find the actual figures for British / Allied tanker losses in the period, they were quite serious indeed, iirc several hundred thousends of GRT worth. Mines, torpedo planes and bombers, uboots all took their toll. I don't bother to post them again.

Not that actual figures were posted, just vague references, but do go on.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurfürst (Post 394045)
Well let's see now the reality.
Tanker losses to all causes, I have gathered a total of 78(!!) tankers were sunk by mine, U-boot (typically), aircraft and raiders, between September 1939 and November 1940. About 90% of them were British, though there are a couple of Swedish, Dutch, French etc. tankers

I have them by name, date, cause of loss, route, cargo, tonnage and so on.

Alltogether 558,260 GRT of tankers went to Davy Jones locker, by the end of November 1940, along with 385,957 tons of oil product. Half of that, ca. 243 000 GRT worth of tankers were sunk by the end May 1940.

Fuel oil was the greatest loss, 116 000 tons of it went down with tankers (luckily, no green peace back then). Avgas seems quite untypical as a load, but in the end it didn't really matter, because if a tanker sunk with diesel oil, or even empty, the next one had to haul about its cargo again.

Tanker losses were serious, unfortunately.

My scanner has gone awol so I'll have to do this the hard way.

From the NA:
cab68/6/11 "War Cabinet Oil Position: Thirty-third Weekly Report: 23 April 1940" (http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/r...-1939-1945.htm Scroll down to 4.Cabinet Papers or Memoranda, click on cab68; enter reference no. "cab68/6/11" in this format in top l/h corner of new page, click on "Go to reference"; click on "View digital image" then "+Add to shopping"; it is free and downloadable)

"The process of bringing Norwegian tankers under Allied control has advanced during the week, and of a total fleet of 212 Norwegian tankers 119 are now under Allied control, while 18 are proceeding to Allied ports; 93 are in neutral ports or reported to be proceeding to neutral ports..."

Meaning in April 1940 Britain had already gained the use of 119 Norwegian tankers, 41 more than were sunk between Sept 1939 and November 1940, and more were expected.

cab68/7/31 "War Cabinet Oil Position Monthly Report: November 1940" (issued 20 December) (http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/r...-1939-1945.htm)

Table I: "Imports Into the United Kingdom (Services and Civil)"

Shows the total number of tankers arriving in UK ports in the year between September 1939 and August 1940 = 947: (Total shown in table = 1,079 minus 132, June to August 1939.)

March to May 1940 = 109 tankers; 1,112,300 tons imported;
June to August = 100 tankers; 1,058,900 tons

total tonnage of oil products imported = 9,986,900. (11,126,900 minus 1,140,000 tons, imported June to August 1939.): an average of 10,546 tons per tanker.

September and October 1940: 124 tankers (62 per month) arrived and in November 80: September = 640,500 tons of imports; October = 651,600; November = 890,300 tons

Grand Total of Tankers arriving in UK Sept 1939 to November 1940 = 1,151
Grand Total of Oil Products Imported = 12,169,300 tons: 10,573 tons of oil product per tanker

Total number sunk Sept 1939 - Nov 1940 = 78(!!); 385,957 tons of oil product = roughly 6.8% tankers; roughly 3.2% of tons imported to Britain. The amount of oil product per tanker destroyed was 4,948 tons, meaning on average the tankers sunk were carrying less than half the weight of cargo each tanker that arrived in port was discharging; the tankers being sunk were either smaller than average, or, more likely, at least half of them were sunk in ballast.

Losses were serious - particularly for the crews - but hardly crippling, and how many were carrying 100 Octane avgas?

Explains why fuel stocks continued to rise right throughout the B of B, and shows that Morgan and Shacklady were right in that tankers were sunk; problem is that the numbers were paltry compared with the numbers arriving in Britain and unloading their cargo. Nor is there any cross referencing used by M & S providing sources for their claim that large numbers of tankers carrying 100 octane were sunk.

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e1...00octane_2.jpg

Al Schlageter 03-07-2012 12:22 PM

Good stuff NZt. Nothing like the facts over sensationalism. :)

TomcatViP 03-07-2012 03:22 PM

calm down little jedi

Al Schlageter 03-07-2012 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TomcatViP (Post 397204)
calm down little jedi

I could say something and then you would have a real reason to feel insulted. :)

TomcatViP 03-07-2012 06:26 PM

Well it seems like you had a decomplexed way to speak about other untill now. Don't tell me you'd feel embarrassed today :shock:

TomcatViP 03-07-2012 11:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glider (Post 397105)
2 Speed prop in the BOB is there any evidence to support this statement?

yes but you'd need to read something longer than an extracted sheet of paper quoted on a certain website... a book

May I suggest reading Badder story or an old cheap book right on the subject (I might hve got it at somthing like 9£ in the 90's at London Foyle's) : Hurricane versus Bf109

the Osprey series is also not tht bad. But I am sry : books they are!

NZtyphoon 03-08-2012 02:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TomcatViP (Post 397289)
yes but you'd need to read something longer than an extracted sheet of paper quoted on a certain website... a book

May I suggest reading Badder story or an old cheap book right on the subject (I might hve got it at somthing like 9£ in the 90's at London Foyle's) : Hurricane versus Bf109

the Osprey series is also not tht bad. But I am sry : books they are!

Not that there was much point in responding to this inanity, but read http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchi...0-%202888.html and

http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchi...0-%202891.html

"De Havillands then had 400 Hurricane conversion sets in hand and expected to convert a total of 700, after which constant speed airscrews would be embodied in the new aircraft. The worst of the rush was over, six days before the Luftwaffe's mass attacks began, and a chance diary entry records that the company was already busy on another urgent job, of fitting airscrews to 24 Hurricanes to be sent at once to the Middle East!"

Or Morgan and Shacklady, which says almost exactly the same thing.

Glider 03-08-2012 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TomcatViP (Post 397289)
yes but you'd need to read something longer than an extracted sheet of paper quoted on a certain website... a book

May I suggest reading Badder story or an old cheap book right on the subject (I might hve got it at somthing like 9£ in the 90's at London Foyle's) : Hurricane versus Bf109

the Osprey series is also not tht bad. But I am sry : books they are!

Books will do fine and I will look them up. At a guess and its only a guess, the fighting mentioned happpened before the conversion took place in late June as the Luftwaffe obviously didn't stop and wait for the RAF to make the conversion

In general offical records are better. I am sure if I look I will find a book that says the earth is flat and Rome was built in a day.

PS all the sheets extracted from a certain website as you put it, I checked in the NA for context and completeness before quoting them. Where possible I try to check everything I quote or at least find two sources. However I do agree with you, it would be nice if others did the same.

TomcatViP 03-08-2012 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glider (Post 397362)
Books will do fine and I will look them up. At a guess and its only a guess, the fighting mentioned happpened before the conversion took place in late June as the Luftwaffe obviously didn't stop and wait for the RAF to make the conversion

In general offical records are better. I am sure if I look I will find a book that says the earth is flat and Rome was built in a day.

PS all the sheets extracted from a certain website as you put it, I checked in the NA for context and completeness before quoting them. Where possible I try to check everything I quote or at least find two sources. However I do agree with you, it would be nice if others did the same.

Ok. Sry for overplaying my irony ;)

Al Schlageter 03-08-2012 12:55 PM

Pips might have surfaced. http://forum.axishistory.com/viewforum.php?f=69

This Pips is from Ozland


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