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335th_GRAthos 04-26-2012 07:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 5./JG27.Farber (Post 415092)
:confused:

Thanks for posting all this :)

raaaid 04-26-2012 10:31 AM

i tried to research info on hartmans breakdowns but theres none

Kongo-Otto 04-26-2012 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by raaaid (Post 415236)
i tried to research info on hartmans breakdowns but theres none

who said he had them?

5./JG27.Farber 04-26-2012 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kongo-Otto (Post 415324)
who said he had them?

It is skirted upon in the blonde knight of Germany. If true or not, who could blame him? 11 years in Soviet Prison camps...

Kongo-Otto 04-26-2012 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 5./JG27.Farber (Post 415325)
It is skirted upon in the blonde knight of Germany. If true or not, who could blame him? 11 years in Soviet Prison camps...

I don't have that book, so i didn't know that.
The only Pilots i did read about Breakdowns the Luftwaffe called it "abgeflogen"(today we call it PTSD) were Nowotny and Marseille.

Kongo-Otto 04-26-2012 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by swiss (Post 415042)
No pilot remains, he survived.

Oops sorry :oops:

Quote:

Originally Posted by swiss (Post 415042)
The plane was abandoned later. The holes are most likely caused by a German grenade, trying to render the plane useless before they took a run.

I don't think that the whole was made by an Hand Grenade it doesn't fit the splinter and explosion pattern, imho it looks more like a whole by a 20mm or some similiar caliber which went thru without detonation.

bongodriver 04-26-2012 01:56 PM

Quote:

I don't think that the whole was made by an Hand Grenade it doesn't fit the splinter and explosion pattern, imho it looks more like a whole by a 20mm or some similiar caliber which went thru without detonation.
Did you notice the peppering holes in the fuselage just below the canopy area, looks like it was associated with the hole in the wing.

raaaid 04-26-2012 02:43 PM

oh i didnt know marseille had a nervous breakdown as well

this seems to be covered up due to hero worship

csThor 04-26-2012 02:48 PM

Hartmann didn't exactly break down, he merely drank far too much. :-?

Bewolf 04-26-2012 09:48 PM

He219 found
 
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/vide...eo?INTCMP=SRCH

of the coast of Denmark.

Imho, awesome news, I love that aircraft for the looks alone. Good to have one in Europe now. (and hopefully a restauration awaits)

http://politiken.dk/newsinenglish/EC...nd-in-denmark/

Danish divers and the Aviation History Society (DFS) of Denmark have recovered a rare World War II German night-fighter off the northern Jutland peninsula and are to restore the aircraft.

The only known other full example of the aircraft is said to be in the United States, where it was taken following the war after it and two other of the aircraft were confiscated by US Army Intelligence Service from the Grove Air Force Base in Jutland, Denmark.

One of the more advanced aircraft to be built during WWII, it was the first military aircraft in the world to be equipped with ejection seats and was equipped with an effective VHF intercept radar designed to seek out and attack allied bombers. It is also said to be one of the first operational aircraft with cockpit pressurisation.

Found in the Tannis Bay between Hirtshals and Skagen in Denmark, the plane’s tricycle landing gear gave it away.

“Landing gear is just like a fingerprint on humans, but I found it difficult to believe that we had such a rare aircraft in Denmark,” says DFS Chairman and aircraft archaeologist Ib Lødsen adding the recovery was like waiting for a Christmas present.

“It was so exciting. You never know whether you’re going to get what you want. I was a little disappointed,” he adds, saying that wires to the aircraft’s instruments had been cut, suggesting that someone had tampered with the aircraft previously.

The only parts of the aircraft that remain to be found are one of its two engines and part of the tail, which probably included the aircraft number, which in turn would help determine why the aircraft ended up in Tannis Bay.

The aircraft is now to be transported to the Garrison Museum in Aalborg where it is to be restored and exhibited.

“People interested in aircraft will come from all over to see it. It’s something of a sensation,” Lødsen says.

Only some 294 of the aircraft, which was nicknamed Eagle-Owl, were ever built for the Luftwaffe. The Heinkel HE-219 in the United States, which until now was said to be the last existing aircraft of its type, was flown from Denmark to Cherbourg in France in 1945 where it was packed aboard the British aircraft carrier HMS Reaper and taken to America as part of the Lusty intelligence operation to glean technical information from German aircraft.

The exhibit is currently at the Smithsonian National Air and Space Museum annex at Washington Dulles Airport.

JG52Uther 04-26-2012 10:16 PM

Excellent! Looks like a long restoration job ahead though!

SlipBall 04-26-2012 10:24 PM

Seems every week a new formally lost one is found...excellent!

Sokol1 04-26-2012 11:31 PM

This 109 in YT is "Swiblo Lake" 109, damage by flak, crash in no man's land, german fire in then with machine guns.

http://historicaviationjournalandmar...lake-find.html

Sokol1

kilosierra 04-27-2012 12:10 AM

Wow,

one "Uhu", having been a Radar guy in my military time back in 89, I always was fascinated by the beginning of electronic warfare.

I have to monitor the restauration closely, as it`s only a around 200 km drive from here, well worth watching one "Uhu" in it`s full glory. Love that bird.

THX for posting!

Karsten

Kongo-Otto 04-27-2012 04:47 AM

Pictures from the salvage:
http://www.danas-have.dk/He219.htm

Kongo-Otto 04-27-2012 04:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by raaaid (Post 415365)
oh i didnt know marseille had a nervous breakdown as well

this seems to be covered up due to hero worship

Raaaid we are talking about PTSD and not about Nevous Breakdowns which is a different clinical picture.
Novotny and Marseille clearly showed signs of PTSD and it looks like Hartmann had it too.

raaaid 04-27-2012 10:12 AM

there are many names for it but its the same thing:

Hartmann was downed for the fifth time, having been rammed by an LaGG-3. Following this incident, he suffered a nervous breakdown and was sent back to Germany on convalescent leave.

http://www.theeasternfront.co.uk/air...twaffeaces.htm

edit:

On 25 May 1943, when Hartmann was downed for the fifth time - this time when he was rammed by or collided with a LaGG-3 - he suffered a nervous breakdown, and was sent back to Germany to rest. Back home his father told him that he was convinced that Germany had no chance to win the war. Hartmann returned to the Eastern Front in June 1943 determined to prove that his father was wrong.

http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/hartm/hartm1.htm

swiss 04-27-2012 11:45 AM

Let me guess, sure you think you're the reincarnation of one of them, right?

raaaid 04-27-2012 12:01 PM

well i dont BELIEVE that

but im haunted at night by dreams in whcih im an experten, and my personality actually fits marseilles

aslo i made a poll and 80% of people have pondered to be wwii fighter in past life

hey maybe i shot you down and from there your feelings

well i learnt the lesson now i fight but dont shoot

according my dreams i ve been:

an alien who would dogfight around a blackhhole, a samurai, an american independency soldier, a car thieve and expert driver from bank robberries oh and an experten

JG52Krupi 04-27-2012 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by raaaid (Post 415708)
well i dont BELIEVE that

but im haunted at night by dreams in whcih im an experten, and my personality actually fits marseilles

aslo i made a poll and 80% of people have pondered to be wwii fighter in past life

hey maybe i shot you down and from there your feelings

well i learnt the lesson now i fight but dont shoot

according my dreams i ve been:

an alien who would dogfight around a blackhhole, a samurai, an american independency soldier, a car thieve and expert driver from bank robberries oh and an experten


Lol I don't recall marselle being known for making wildly inaccurate theories with no evidence to back them up, from what I have heard about him he was a bit of a playboy that flouted authority and was clearly a good tactician!

Hmmm I am still struggiling to see the similarities ;)

raaaid 04-27-2012 12:19 PM

oh he was misfit getting in all trouble by being himself, thats why he got sent to afrika

as i see it me and others who probably hang around in here are actually aliens who are raincarnating within humanity to boost evolution so earth stops being a getho and humans take the next evolutionary leap

edit:

i wonder i see an amzing resemblance what do you think:

http://i.rankingfamosos.com/imagenes...o-alonso-5.jpg

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e2...id/antonio.jpg

could i have the pilot abilities in my genes i got several world records in driving games

swiss 04-27-2012 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by raaaid (Post 415708)
and my personality actually fits marseilles

I knew it.
roflamo.


Quote:

aslo i made a poll and 80% of people have pondered to be wwii fighter in past life
Try to find reincarnated farmers, then come back again.

Quote:

hey maybe i shot you down and from there your feelings
I dont believe in "souls", there is no reincarnation or life after death.

Quote:

an alien who would dogfight around a blackhhole, a samurai, an american independency soldier, a car thieve and expert driver from bank robberries oh and an experten
Only the cool jobs,huh?
Makes me wonder what fate found you guilty of it put in you such a sorry existence this time.

btw: What's your definition of an "expert"?

swiss 04-27-2012 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by raaaid (Post 415715)
i wonder i see an amzing resemblance what do you think:

Where are your "bullet-proof" glasses?

raaaid 04-27-2012 12:41 PM

oh come on dond blame me for being normal a majority of people according my poll has pondered to be a wwii fighter in a past life

swiss 04-27-2012 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by raaaid (Post 415725)
oh come on dond blame me for being normal a majority of people according my poll has pondered to be a wwii fighter in a past life

what you reckon?

raaaid 04-27-2012 12:47 PM

also marseille was a bohemian, im a bohemian :)

and he was crazy nobody wanted to be his wingman :)

swiss 04-27-2012 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by raaaid (Post 415729)
also marseille was a bohemian, im a bohemian :)

Sudeten or Czech?

JG52Krupi 04-27-2012 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by raaaid (Post 415729)
also marseille was a bohemian, im a bohemian :)

and he was crazy nobody wanted to be his wingman :)

Wasn't it the complete opposite he was well liked by his fellow pilots iirc.

6S.Manu 04-27-2012 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JG52Krupi (Post 415758)
Wasn't it the complete opposite he was well liked by his fellow pilots iirc.

Nobody wanted to be his wingman because he was an egocentric and irresponsible "pilot". The "man" could be different.

5./JG27.Farber 04-27-2012 03:11 PM

Well there goes the thread...

Kongo-Otto 04-27-2012 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by raaaid (Post 415729)
also marseille was a bohemian, im a bohemian :)

yes he was a bohemian, but you are not bohemian you're totally nuts. Big difference.

raaaid 04-27-2012 03:20 PM

according my dr im clinically sane so dont want to know more than a doctor

i just happen to be eccentric as marseille

who would fly in formation with the foe but a total wacko

Kongo-Otto 04-27-2012 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by raaaid (Post 415708)
aslo i made a poll and 80% of people have pondered to be wwii fighter in past life

Yeah sure and if you make a poll "how many of my fellow Braindeads were Roman Emperors in a former life" you will surely get also 80%.
Your Poll equals PoH = Pile of Horse dung!

Kongo-Otto 04-27-2012 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by raaaid (Post 415833)
according my dr im clinically sane so dont want to know more than a doctor

Is your doctor a real person or is he one of the voices inside your head?

raaaid 04-27-2012 03:22 PM

youre disrespectfull with the majorities opinion

is like when i made a poll of who had had a dream that later happened

a big majority voted yes but this society and way of thinking is imposed by a bully minority

raaaid 04-27-2012 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kongo-Otto (Post 415836)
Is your doctor a real person or is he one of the voices inside your head?

my psichiatrist is my sister and she aint crazy like 99% of shrinks

i dont hear voices nor have hallucinations i just happen to dislike this society in which is normal that babies die from famine in front of hteir mom so i repudioate society and become very very eccentric

eccentric as marsille

Kongo-Otto 04-27-2012 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by raaaid (Post 415837)
youre disrespectfull with the majorities opinion

Actually i give a big heap of human excrement about the majority and their opinion(s).

raaaid 04-27-2012 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kongo-Otto (Post 415843)
Actually i give a big heap of human excrement about the majority and their opinion(s).

then you just mind your OWN opinion?

is not your saying you dont mind majorities opinion which i partially share since majority is not necesarily right

but seems to me your saying you dont mind OTHERS opinions

maybe thats why you look down on me since im irational and oposite to you?

5./JG27.Farber 04-27-2012 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by raaaid (Post 416011)
then you just mind your OWN opinion?

Ecuse me raid! Are you not all for free opinion?! I think you are a hypocrite.

raaaid 04-27-2012 09:19 PM

well i just say majorities are not always right, take the flat earth example, i still respect those who are wrong i just try to correct them

Sternjaeger II 04-27-2012 10:03 PM

How the hell this thread go from being an informative one about books to talk again about Raaaid? Aren't u happy enough with all your random crap, u need to ruin other people's threads too now? :evil:

5./JG27.Farber 04-27-2012 10:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II (Post 416131)
How the hell this thread go from being an informative one about books to talk again about Raaaid? Aren't u happy enough with all your random crap, u need to ruin other people's threads too now? :evil:

Raid is mental. This means he is special. This means he can come into any thread - say anything and distort the entire forums. This forum in which we are not allowed to swear, because of children! - however Raid can suggest in the future he will be raped by aliens with a 37cm penis... This is fine! -because he is special! :-P

5./JG27.Farber 04-27-2012 11:37 PM

...

Feathered_IV 04-28-2012 12:09 AM

You are very unpleasant today.

5./JG27.Farber 04-28-2012 12:29 AM

Sorry I didnt mean to across that way, but bringing a novel into a historical book section will do that to someone. Sorry if I caused offence.

Kongo-Otto 04-28-2012 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kongo-Otto (Post 415843)
Actually i give a big heap of human excrement about the majority and their opinion(s).

Quote:

Originally Posted by raaaid (Post 416011)
then you just mind your OWN opinion?

Exactly!

Quote:

Originally Posted by raaaid (Post 416011)
but seems to me your saying you dont mind OTHERS opinions

Exactly raaaid, you got the picture. I don't give a flying fart about other peoples opinions, in fact 99,9 % of all Humans on this planet are to stupid to form an OWN Opinion at all, thats why they need CNN, TVE, Fox and Al-Jazeera and all the other nameless crap stations on this Planet.

Quote:

Originally Posted by raaaid (Post 416011)
maybe thats why you look down on me since im irational and oposite to you?

I'm not looking down on you and raaaid you're not irrational you have a serious problem!
IMHO you should stay away from the Internet and get some PROPER medical help, because there's no doubt that you have some serious mental problems which might become more serious if not treated in a proper way.

raaaid 04-28-2012 10:17 AM

im seeing a doctor, im having meds

im not CONVINCED of my ideas

im open to be wrong

what i say though bizarre is logical thought

most people dont have no trouble with me you seem to be that 1%

maybe you just want to silence me for finding my ideas annoying

Sternjaeger II 04-28-2012 10:33 AM

PLEASE STOP DISCUSSING RAAAID'S ISSUES HERE!!! I AM TIRED OF THIS CONTINUOUS YABBERING ON RAAAID, THIS IS NOT A MEDICAL CENTRE, IT'S A FORUM ABOUT SIMS AND AVIATION. STAY ON TOPIC OR GO TROLL SOMEWHERE ELSE.

Hopefully the CAPS will give it enough visibility :rolleyes:

SG1_Lud 04-28-2012 10:47 AM

Come on raaaid, Stern is right, you hijacked the thread. When I came here was looking for Hartmann's bio discussion, so please be nice and respect me at least as much are you are respected by me.

Que tengas un bonito sábado ;)

raaaid 04-28-2012 10:48 AM

yeah sorry i feel i had to defend myself

can we discuss hartmans breakdowns which fits within his bio for example, im interested in that

again i couldnt find info on them and i think its due to hero worship

SG1_Lud 04-28-2012 10:50 AM

Yes but please open another thread for that.

raaaid 04-28-2012 10:57 AM

oh what i meant is that i read some bios but they dont tell the pilots thoughts, seem to be written by a 2nd person

if there was a real hartman self bio i think he would go extensively into the reasons of the breakdowns

edit:

im trying to remain on topic

i miss a pilot bio to be written by himself not an outside person

TBear 04-28-2012 11:05 AM

Always facinating. Two years ago i was in Russia visiting a friend. He have pictures taken from a small village where an old farmer have stored away "German leftovers"

I know there is some "higher" political debate conserning these "objects" but realy hope that they find a way to get "these" things to western europe. They looked in prime condition.

I have always been happy about animals. The black cat and the bigger brother with stripes. I would love to have one "black cat" and two cats "with stripes" roaring like a maybach engine moving more gentle through the hills than tracks on tanks ;)

Thee_oddball 04-28-2012 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TBear (Post 416345)
Always facinating. Two years ago i was in Russia visiting a friend. He have pictures taken from a small village where an old farmer have stored away "German leftovers"

I know there is some "higher" political debate conserning these "objects" but realy hope that they find a way to get "these" things to western europe. They looked in prime condition.

I have always been happy about animals. The black cat and the bigger brother with stripes. I would love to have one "black cat" and two cats "with stripes" roaring like a maybach engine moving more gentle through the hills than tracks on tanks ;)

sooo there is a farmer in Russia with a tiger and panther tank in his barn....be a good lad and PM his address :) ill check my PM after i get some vodka and bread to trade for the "leftovers" :)

Kongo-Otto 04-28-2012 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by raaaid (Post 416334)
yeah sorry i feel i had to defend myself

can we discuss hartmans breakdowns which fits within his bio for example, im interested in that

again i couldnt find info on them and i think its due to hero worship


may i remind you of your first post:
Quote:

Originally Posted by raaaid (Post 415236)
i tried to research info on hartmans breakdowns but theres none

So where is the need for your self defense actually.
Get lost numb nut!!

JG52Uther 04-29-2012 04:06 PM

Anyone know whats going to happen to the P40?

ElAurens 04-29-2012 04:09 PM

Too bad the painted serial numbers were sand blasted off over time.

And I'm surprised there are no pics of the builder's plate.

It's gotta be in there.

Sternjaeger II 04-29-2012 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JG52Uther (Post 417159)
Anyone know whats going to happen to the P40?

there are a lot of rumours going on, but apparently there's a fair chance the RAF will get there and take it back to the UK, or so I was told by a close friend who works for the AF.

JG52Uther 04-29-2012 04:20 PM

Well I hope so, be a shame to see that lost.

ElAurens 04-29-2012 04:28 PM

+1 to that.

It deserves a better fate than to be cut up and sold for scrap in some bazaar in Cairo.

I had hoped the RAF would intervene. I know the US Navy considers all of it's crashed aircraft to still be the property of the USN.

Sternjaeger II 04-29-2012 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ElAurens (Post 417168)
+1 to that.

It deserves a better fate than to be cut up and sold for scrap in some bazaar in Cairo.

I had hoped the RAF would intervene. I know the US Navy considers all of it's crashed aircraft to still be the property of the USN.

well it's a bit of a slippery slope. AFAIK there's been no disclosure on the exact location of the wreck, and the recovery of such delicate thing means a great deal of careful work and above all an adequate mean of transportation.

Then u have to deal with the local authorities and discuss the conditions of the removal. As for property, it's not that simple either: normally one needs to respect the legislation of the country the relic is found, you can't just go there and pick it up because it was your operational machine 60 years ago. If the wreck is in a country that you were fighting against that would technically be considered a war trophy, so you would have no rights over it. Normally governments don't make fuss over this stuff because it bears little or no importance to them, but rest assured that if it was a transport plane stacked with gold lingots and other valuable items there would be a mega row over it.

Whatever the case, it's obvious that the airplane as it is makes no worthy base for a flyable restoration (unlike the alleged Burma spits), and the historical value is far too important to receive a dramatic restoration. The P-40 is not a rare aircraft per se, what's rare and unique is having found one in such remarkable and complete conditions 70 years after it was lost. Those barbars should be slapped around the head for having removed the ammo boxes (when they could have simply removed the ammunition), but unfortunately we're not all aviation experts.

JG52Uther 04-29-2012 04:45 PM

Make an excellent 'diorama' like the Gladiator and Halifax at the RAF museum! Depends if the interest is there, and the funds. I think the RAF museum is pretty much tied up in the Dornier 17 recovery, and, in the cold light of day, that is a much more valuable find.

Sternjaeger II 04-29-2012 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JG52Uther (Post 417171)
Make an excellent 'diorama' like the Gladiator and Halifax at the RAF museum! Depends if the interest is there, and the funds. I think the RAF museum is pretty much tied up in the Dornier 17 recovery, and, in the cold light of day, that is a much more valuable find.

Yeah, that would be an excellent idea, especially considering the expansion plans for Hendon.

As for recovery costs, I can't think of it being that dramatic actually, nothing that a couple of Chinooks couldn't take away. It would surely entail the disassembly of the wings from the fuselage, but I can't imagine that being a costly operation to complete (ElAurens, what's the P-40 wing structure like? Monospar all across making one big wing like Mustang and T-6, or two separate wings?)

Finding this kind of stuff is like stealing a piece of art for a private collector: you would be able to smuggle it and sell it to some private collector, but he wouldn't be able to show it to the public or let people know about it.

Let's hope that common sense will prevail eventually :)

Wolf_Rider 04-29-2012 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ElAurens (Post 417162)
Too bad the painted serial numbers were sand blasted off over time.

And I'm surprised there are no pics of the builder's plate.

It's gotta be in there.



"On 28/6/42 ET574 Piloted by F/Sgt DCH Copping 785025 left 260 for a ferry flight to an RSU . The A/C flew with u/c locked down due to damage . An incorrect course was set and the A/C was thought to have crashed in the Desert due to fuel exhaustion." - Possibly?



HS-B 260 sqdn Canada, - apparently

http://www.vintagewings.ca/VintageNe...iscovered.aspx

Jaws2002 04-29-2012 08:34 PM

Awesome F15 video.
 
http://vimeo.com/40935850

Enjoy!

Kupsised 04-29-2012 10:31 PM

Thanks for posting this! behind the seat footage from just above the clouds was beautiful.

On the other hand, this video seriously annoyed me since now I need to start playing the lottery so I can get a pilots liscense and my own jet to do that in :P

mazex 04-29-2012 11:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wolf_Rider (Post 417174)
"On 28/6/42 ET574 Piloted by F/Sgt DCH Copping 785025 left 260 for a ferry flight to an RSU . The A/C flew with u/c locked down due to damage . An incorrect course was set and the A/C was thought to have crashed in the Desert due to fuel exhaustion." - Possibly?



HS-B 260 sqdn Canada, - apparently

http://www.vintagewings.ca/VintageNe...iscovered.aspx

Mmm - that really sounds like our plane! And the fact they flew with the undercarriage down for the ferry flight due to damage explains two things:

1. Why was there a wheel far from the AC at what should have been a belly landing? One of the photos show it far from the wreck. I though it was teared off anyway...

2. Why did a plane with what looks like battle damage (some shrapnel holes in the body indicate that) crash in a "non combat area"? It was on ferry to be repaired!

And sadly that means that the pilot F/Sgt DCH Copping died walking in the desert just as was the fear as the plane has not been found before... Rest in peace!

JG52Uther 04-30-2012 06:02 AM

Horrible way to go. :(

mazex 04-30-2012 06:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JG52Uther (Post 417315)
Horrible way to go. :(

It sure is. I actually had a hard time falling asleep yesterday thinking of the scenario. As a rookie pilot you get the mission to fly the squadron ace's plane that has been damaged to a repair and salvage unit (HS-B was one of the more famous kitty hawks in Sahara being flown by James F. "Eddie" Edwards, if not the most famous?) . You get lost and land in the middle of nowhere... In which direction do you start walking? As it is in the middle of the war you naturally realize that no one will start a search for a plane lost in the desert, and where to look? What a way to go... Those are the forgotten heroes of the war that don't get home like "Eddie" Edvards did to well earned fame and glory! He is still alive today so it would be interesting to hear if he remembers the details around that note in the squadron diary regarding what happened to "his plane".

JG52Uther 04-30-2012 07:32 AM

The guys from the Lady Be Good lived for a week. Must have been terrible. At least they had each other, for a while at least.

335th_GRAthos 04-30-2012 08:14 AM

AWESOME!

At 7:30 he iddles the right engine and initiates roll with hard right rudder! No wonder it took them one year to film all sequences!

Thanks for posting.

~S~

DroopSnoot 04-30-2012 08:38 AM

thank you for posting.

I always find it incredible that the F15 was first in tactical use as far back as the mid 70's, so far ahead of its time then but still going strong now.

mazex 04-30-2012 09:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II (Post 417164)
there are a lot of rumours going on, but apparently there's a fair chance the RAF will get there and take it back to the UK, or so I was told by a close friend who works for the AF.

If you have more information from that source it would be interesting! Other forums have just like us speculated that it seems that the plane may be HS-B from 260 Squadron, maybe lost on a ferry flight... I have seen no "confirmation" about that anywhere though? Now the fact that it IS HS-B seems to be on many sites though. I want it from the RAF (or rather the RCAF if it's HS-B!).

PeterPanPan 04-30-2012 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DroopSnoot (Post 417341)
thank you for posting.

I always find it incredible that the F15 was first in tactical use as far back as the mid 70's, so far ahead of its time then but still going strong now.

Ditto that. Amazing aircraft - was the first one I really lusted after as a boy! Great vid too - very 'Top Gun'.

Sternjaeger II 04-30-2012 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mazex (Post 417356)
If you have more information from that source it would be interesting! Other forums have just like us speculated that it seems that the plane may be HS-B from 260 Squadron, maybe lost on a ferry flight... I have seen no "confirmation" about that anywhere though? Now the fact that it IS HS-B seems to be on many sites though. I want it from the RAF (or rather the RCAF if it's HS-B!).

well I talked to my friend last weekend, it's the kinda person that tells you only what he can tell really, and what he said is that the RAF was definitely looking into a recovery, don't know much else for now.

As for the identity and speculation re. landing gear, I would say hold your horses fellas. Doing a landing gears down emergency landing on such a sandy/rocky surface is an easy way to get yourself killed: no sane pilot would ever do that, in fact I'd rather jump with a parachute than attempt an emergency landing.

That's the first thing that surprised me: why bothering doing an emergency landing when you can easily bail out? My conclusion is that the pilot must have been losing altitude and by the time he realised he had to abandon ship he was too low and the plane wouldn't gain altitude, so he tried to pancake it on the sand. The props show signs of rotation, so it means the engine was still running, albeit probably rough, when he touched the ground. The landing gear must have been up or in an unlocked position, there's no way you can put a taildragger down with gears out on the sand without flipping it.

Another thing, if the plane was part of a ferry flight (you never fly alone in over the desert, let alone if you're on a ferry flight with a damaged plane!), why didn't the rest of the flight pinpoint the location and radio the guy to wait there for a recovery? The LRP SAS would have been able to find the chap.

My guess is that somehow the fella got singled out and got lost.

It's always a bad idea to leave your aircraft when u land it in a remote area: the chances of surviving are higher if you stay in the same place and wait for someone to find you than venturing yourself out.

There was a similar discover in the 60s (although a bit grimmer), an S.79 was found by another oil scouting team, the rests of part of the crew still there. One of the members of crew was found some 150km away from the wreck, but still in the middle of the desert.

mazex 04-30-2012 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II (Post 417374)
well I talked to my friend last weekend, it's the kinda person that tells you only what he can tell really, and what he said is that the RAF was definitely looking into a recovery, don't know much else for now.

As for the identity and speculation re. landing gear, I would say hold your horses fellas. Doing a landing gears down emergency landing on such a sandy/rocky surface is an easy way to get yourself killed: no sane pilot would ever do that, in fact I'd rather jump with a parachute than attempt an emergency landing.

That's the first thing that surprised me: why bothering doing an emergency landing when you can easily bail out? My conclusion is that the pilot must have been losing altitude and by the time he realised he had to abandon ship he was too low and the plane wouldn't gain altitude, so he tried to pancake it on the sand. The props show signs of rotation, so it means the engine was still running, albeit probably rough, when he touched the ground. The landing gear must have been up or in an unlocked position, there's no way you can put a taildragger down with gears out on the sand without flipping it.

Another thing, if the plane was part of a ferry flight (you never fly alone in over the desert, let alone if you're on a ferry flight with a damaged plane!), why didn't the rest of the flight pinpoint the location and radio the guy to wait there for a recovery? The LRP SAS would have been able to find the chap.

My guess is that somehow the fella got singled out and got lost.

It's always a bad idea to leave your aircraft when u land it in a remote area: the chances of surviving are higher if you stay in the same place and wait for someone to find you than venturing yourself out.

There was a similar discover in the 60s (although a bit grimmer), an S.79 was found by another oil scouting team, the rests of part of the crew still there. One of the members of crew was found some 150km away from the wreck, but still in the middle of the desert.

But still, doing a gear up landing on with a P-40 in the desert should not tear the wheels out of their bays a few hundred meters from the plane? At the same time like you say it's madness to land with the gear down as it really should top the aircraft over? Maybe he was too low to bail out when he realized he was loosing power? Maybe he was really scared of using the silk? I've had a parachute on my back hundreds of times but never used it - if the plane is still in one piece it takes a tough decision to bail out, especially if you can't bring the reserve water tucked away somewhere in the plane with you?

Speculations...

But like you say, a solo ferry flight in a damaged plane sounds weird - but the diary note seems to indicate that it was the case for that AC with the damaged undercarriage... In the middle of war there are maybe weird decisions taken?

Sternjaeger II 04-30-2012 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mazex (Post 417378)
But still, doing a gear up landing on with a P-40 in the desert should not tear the wheels out of their bays a few hundred meters from the plane?

there are a lot of rocks around, the wheels are turned towards the wing in a semi-retracted position, it wouldn't surprise me if they were torn apart.

Check this video of a Mustang doing a very bad (but relatively controlled) landing to get an idea of what happens to landing gears

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9XuMylC7gSc
Quote:

At the same time like you say it's madness to land with the gear down as it really should top the aircraft over? Maybe he was too low to bail out when he realized he was loosing power? Maybe he was really scared of using the silk? I've had a parachute on my back hundreds of times but never used it - if the plane is still in one piece it takes a tough decision to bail out, especially if you can't bring the reserve water tucked away somewhere in the plane with you?

Speculations...

But like you say, a solo ferry flight in a damaged plane sounds weird - but the diary note seems to indicate that it was the case for that AC with the damaged undercarriage... In the middle of war there are maybe weird decisions taken?
well yeah, definitely an unwise decision to fly solo in the desert, no matter if with an efficient aircraft or not. My guess again is that the landing gears were unlocked and hanging loose from the wings when he touched down, and even if he radioed a Mayday there's a fair chance he didn't give his position or the message wasn't picked up at all.

There are some deaths in war that are left untold just because you come to the sad realisation that they could have been avoided, had a wiser line of decision been taken.

mazex 04-30-2012 11:16 AM

Arghh! That is a truly awful landing and it's amazing that it did not end worse! He must have misjudged the flare completely due to low speed as he must have known the road was there? Looks like the Mustang has a gear the would fit for carrier landnings! ;)

Sternjaeger II 04-30-2012 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mazex (Post 417385)
Arghh! That is a truly awful landing and it's amazing that it did not end worse! He must have misjudged the flare completely due to low speed as he must have known the road was there? Looks like the Mustang has a gear the would fit for carrier landnings! ;)

yeah, that ramp got a couple of pilots before, there's a video of a B-17 doing the same, but thanks to the big wing lift the pilot managed to hold it without causing damage.

This is the main thing I think we miss in most sims (although a now ancient sim called "Fighter Squadron: The Screaming Demons Over Europe" had it): flexible/bendable airframes. Stuff does not simply break, it bends (and it does it a lot on airframes).

AFAIK there were trials for Mustangs on aircraft carriers, but laminar flow wings can be quite unforgiving ;)

BadAim 04-30-2012 11:31 AM

The Mustang in the video lost power as it was coming in (did you notice the puff of smoke?) and the pilot had to let her settle well short of the runway, the berm that the plane hit was supposed to be the edge of the field. I would say that considering the circumstances, that was an excellent landing.

As for the speculation about landing versus parachuting, I can certainly see the reluctance to jump out of a perfectly land-able aircraft. Hartmann belly flopped some 17 or so aircraft before being forced to bail out of one that was literally falling apart. Parachutes were an unknown quantity, landing a plane was, even if it was damaged.

It will be interesting to find the real story. If it's indeed there to be found.

Sternjaeger II 04-30-2012 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadAim (Post 417389)
The Mustang in the video lost power as it was coming in (did you notice the puff of smoke?) and the pilot had to let her settle well short of the runway, the berm that the plane hit was supposed to be the edge of the field. I would say that considering the circumstances, that was an excellent landing.

yep, there was a failure with one of the camshaft gears if memory serves. The pilot could have put her down flawlessly had it not been for that stupid bank on the runway edge. With such a sudden power loss the pilot had pretty much little to do, all he could do was hanging on to the stick and hoping the Stang would keep its tail down. If it wasn't for that ramp it would have been just a rougher landing, but it's worth noting that even on such a hard hit only one landing gear leg bent slightly.

Here's Sally-B doing the same thing, although with all engines working all the pilot needed to do was give it a bit of throttle and help her down gently

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTnoH...feature=relmfu
Quote:

As for the speculation about landing versus parachuting, I can certainly see the reluctance to jump out of a perfectly land-able aircraft. Hartmann belly flopped some 17 or so aircraft before being forced to bail out of one that was literally falling apart. Parachutes were an unknown quantity, landing a plane was, even if it was damaged.

It will be interesting to find the real story. If it's indeed there to be found.
well belly landing per se is a risky business with such aircraft on a rough field, let alone on a rocky desert! Don't forget you're coming down at 90-100 mph! We don't usually wear parachutes on the T-6, because it has such a sturdy wing that you can easily put it down in a field, but on the Mustang we always wear a chute: belly landing can be catastrophic because if it flips you're dead, since there's no armour headrest or protection frame to save the canopy from crushing. That's how the late Paul Morgan died unfortunately, and it's definitely an ugly way to go.

bongodriver 04-30-2012 01:10 PM

I was at Sywell the day Baby Gorilla flipped over, saw the whole incident unfold, really sad.

Sternjaeger II 04-30-2012 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bongodriver (Post 417433)
I was at Sywell the day Baby Gorilla flipped over, saw the whole incident unfold, really sad.

I'm glad I wasn't there, I never met him but my friends there always told me he was an absolutely fantastic man he was. His P-51 Susy was a real cutie, it's in Germany now I think.

bongodriver 04-30-2012 01:25 PM

He had a corsair too, what happened to that?

Sternjaeger II 04-30-2012 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bongodriver (Post 417445)
He had a corsair too, what happened to that?

AFAIK there was nobody else in his family that could fly the planes, so they decided to sell them. They held on Susy for a while, but it eventually went.

EDIT: The Corsair went across the pond apparently, and it also seems that the Sea Fury is being restored abroad.

Daniël 05-01-2012 08:13 AM

Great video! Thank you! :cool:

gelbevierzehn 05-01-2012 09:57 AM

WOW... Thx for sharing this!!!

JG5_emil 05-01-2012 11:52 PM

Wow that was awsome!

Cheers for posting

WTE_Galway 05-02-2012 03:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DroopSnoot (Post 417341)
thank you for posting.

I always find it incredible that the F15 was first in tactical use as far back as the mid 70's, so far ahead of its time then but still going strong now.

It was intended to replace the F4 in 'nam but never made it in time.

Hood 05-02-2012 12:16 PM

Great video.

Now imagine doing all that in a tiny 1,000hp fighter getting to 200m in order to shoot at someone else. Then go further back and imagine being in a 110hp biplane geting to 10m...

Hood

335th_GRAthos 05-04-2012 11:14 AM

Some interesting follow up...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technolog...-to-crash.html


Quote:

By Nick Ross, Neil Tweedie
7:30AM BST 28 Apr 2012

In the early hours of June 1 2009, Air France Flight 447 from Rio de Janeiro to Paris went missing, along with 216 passengers and 12 crew. The Airbus A330-200 disappeared mid-ocean, beyond radar coverage and in darkness. It took a shocked and bewildered Air France six hours to concede its loss and for several agonising days there was no trace. It was an utter mystery. No other airliner had vanished so completely in modern times. Even when wreckage was discovered the tragedy was no less perplexing. The aircraft had flown through a thunderstorm, but there was no distress signal, and the jet was state-of-the-art, a type that had never before been involved in a fatal accident. What had caused it to fall out of the sky?

The official report by French accident investigators is due in a month and seems likely to echo provisional verdicts suggesting human error. There is no doubt that at least one of AF447’s pilots made a fatal and sustained mistake, and the airline must bear responsibility for the actions of its crew. It will be a grievous blow for Air France, perhaps more damaging than the Concorde disaster of July 2000.

But there is another, worrying implication that the Telegraph can disclose for the first time: that the errors committed by the pilot doing the flying were not corrected by his more experienced colleagues because they did not know he was behaving in a manner bound to induce a stall. And the reason for that fatal lack of awareness lies partly in the design of the control stick – the “side stick” – used in all Airbus cockpits.

Anything to do with Airbus is important. The company has sold 11,500 aircraft to date, with 7,000 in the air. It commands half the world market in big airliners, the other half belonging to its great American rival, Boeing.

The mystery of AF447 has taken three years to resolve, involving immensely costly mid-Atlantic searches covering 17,000 square kilometres of often uncharted sea bed to depths of 4,700 metres. So remote was the place the airliner went down, in equatorial waters between Brazil and Africa, that it was five days before debris and the first bodies were recovered. Finally, almost two years later, robot submarines located the aircraft’s flight recorders, a near-miraculous feat that revitalised the biggest crash inquiry since Lockerbie.

Prior to the recovery of the recorders, the cause of the disaster could only be inferred from a few salvaged pieces of wreckage and technical data beamed automatically from the aircraft to the airline’s maintenance centre in France. It appeared to be a failure of the plane’s pitot (pronounced pea-toe) tubes – small, forward-facing ducts that use airflow to measure airspeed. On entering the storm these had apparently frozen over, blanking airspeed indicators and causing the autopilot to disengage. From then on the crew failed to maintain sufficient speed, resulting in a stall which, over almost four minutes, sent 228 people plummeting to their deaths.

But why? Normally an A330 can fly itself, overriding unsafe commands. Even if systems fail there is standard procedure to fall back on: if you set engine thrust to 85 per cent and pitch the nose five degrees above the horizontal, the aircraft will more or less fly level. How was it that three pilots trained by a safe and prestigious airline could so disastrously lose control? Either there was something wrong with the plane, or with the crew. Airbus and Air France, both with much to lose, were soon pointing accusing fingers at each other.

In July last year the French air crash investigation organisation, the Bureau d’Enquêtes et d’Analyses (BEA), published its third interim report. For Air France the conclusion was crushing: the crew had ignored repeated stall alerts and kept trying to climb, instead of levelling off or descending to pick up speed. The A330 had become so slow that it simply ceased to fly. Its reputation on the line, Air France came as close as it dared to repudiating the finding. The pilots, said the airline, had “showed unfailing professional attitude, remaining committed to their task to the very end”.

But the airline’s case seemed thin. All indications suggested the aircraft had functioned just as it was designed. The black box recordings showed that the plane was responsive to the point of impact. The case against the pilots looked even worse when a transcript of the voice recorder was leaked. It confirmed that one of the pilots had pulled the stick back and kept it there for almost the entirety of the emergency. With its nose pointed too far upwards, it was little wonder that the Airbus had eventually lost momentum and stalled. But this analysis begs the question: even if one pilot got things badly wrong, why did his two colleagues fail to spot the problem? The transcript of increasingly panicky conversations in the cockpit suggests they did, but too late.

AF447 was four hours into its 11-hour overnight journey when it was overwhelmed by disaster. Many passengers, including five Britons, would have been trying to grab some sleep, only half aware of the turbulence buffeting the A330. There were eight children onboard, including Alexander Bjoroy, an 11-year-old boarder at Bristol’s Clifton College. Also travelling was Christine Badre Schnabl and her five-year-old son, Philippe. She and her husband had purposely chosen separate flights to Paris, possibly because of their shared fear of air crashes. He had taken off earlier with the couple’s three-year-old daughter.

Two hours in, Marc Dubois, the veteran captain, was heading for a routine break. His deputy, David Robert, a seasoned flier with 6,500 flying hours under his belt, was perfectly capable of coping with the tropical thunderstorm AF447 was flying towards. Pierre-Cédric Bonin was at the controls and, though the most junior pilot, he had clocked up a respectable 2,900 hours on commercial jets.

As the airliner entered the worst of the weather, Bonin told the cabin crew to prepare for turbulence. Eight minutes later, everyone on board would be dead. Bonin himself seems to have been spooked, calling attention to a metallic smell and an eerie glow in the cockpit. Robert reassured him that it was St Elmo’s fire, an electrical fluorescence not uncommon in equatorial thunderstorms. A few moments later the outside air temperature plummeted, the pitot tubes iced up and an alarm sounded briefly to warn that the autopilot had disengaged. From this moment, Bonin’s behaviour is strange. The flight recorder indicates that, without saying anything, he pulled back on the stick and, seemingly against all reason, kept the nose up, causing a synthesised voice to warn, “Stall! Stall!” in English as the airspeed began to drop dangerously. Robert took 20 or 30 seconds to figure out what was happening before ordering Bonin to descend. “It says we’re going up. It says we’re going up, so descend.” Seconds later Robert again called out, “Descend!” and for a few moments the plane recovered momentum and the stall warning ceased. But Robert was now anxious enough to call for the captain to return to the cockpit. Meanwhile, Bonin’s instinct was again to pull back on the control stick. He left it there despite the stall warning that blared out some 75 times. Instead of moving the stick forward to pick up speed, he continued to climb at almost the maximum rate. If he had simply set the control to neutral or re-engaged the autopilot, all would have been well.

A minute after the autopilot disconnected, Bonin muttered something odd: “I’m in TOGA, huh?” TOGA stands for Take Off, Go Around. Bonin was apparently so disorientated that he believed he was operating at low altitude, in a similar situation to a pilot having to abort a landing approach before circling for a second attempt. Standard procedure on abandoning a landing is to set engines to full power and tilt the aircraft upwards at 15 degrees. But Flight AF447 was not a few hundred feet above a runway. Within a minute it had soared to 38,000 feet in air so thin that it could climb no more. As forward thrust was lost, downward momentum was gathering. Instead of the wings slicing neatly through the air, their increasing angle of attack meant they were in effect damming it. In the next 40 seconds AF447 fell 3,000 feet, losing more and more speed as the angle of attack increased to 40 degrees. The wings were now like bulldozer blades against the sky. Bonin failed to grasp this fact, and though angle of attack readings are sent to onboard computers, there are no displays in modern jets to convey this critical information to the crews. One of the provisional recommendations of the BEA inquiry has been to challenge this absence.

Bonin’s insistent efforts to climb soon deprived even the computers of the vital angle-of-attack information. An A330’s angle of attack is measured by a fin projecting from the fuselage. When forward speed fell to 60 knots there was insufficient airflow to make the mechanism work. The computers, which are programmed not to feed pilots misleading information, could no longer make sense of the data they were receiving and blanked out some of the instruments. Also, the stall warnings ceased. It was up to the pilots to do some old-fashioned flying.

With no knowledge of airspeed or angle of attack, the safest thing at high altitude is to descend gently to avoid a stall. This is what David urged Bonin to do, but something bewildering happened when Bonin put the nose down. As the aircraft picked up speed, the input data became valid again and the computers could now make sense of things. Once again they began to shout: “Stall, stall, stall.” Tragically, as Bonin did the right thing to pick up speed, the aircraft seemed to tell him he was making matters worse. If he had continued to descend the warnings would eventually have ceased. But, panicked by the renewed stall alerts, he chose to resume his fatal climb.

Yet if Bonin was now beyond his knowledge and experience, the key to understanding the crash is Robert’s failure to grasp the mistake being made by his colleague. It is here that Airbus’s cockpit design may be at fault.

Like all other aircraft in the modern Airbus range the A330 is controlled by side sticks beside pilots’ seats, which resemble those on computer game consoles. These side sticks are not connected to the aircraft control surfaces by levers and pulleys, as in older aircraft. Instead commands are fed to computers, which in turn send signals to the engines and hydraulics. This so-called fly-by-wire technology has huge advantages. Doing away with mechanical connections saves weight, and therefore fuel. There are fewer moving components to go wrong, the slender electronic wiring and computers all have multiple back‑ups, and the onboard processors take much of the workload off pilots. Better still, they are programmed to compensate for human error.

The side sticks are also wonderfully clever. Once a command is given, say a 10-degree left turn, the pilot can let the stick go and concentrate on other issues while the 10-degree turn is perfectly maintained. According to Stephen King of the British Airline Pilots’ Association, it’s an admired and popular design. “Most Airbus pilots I know love it because of the reliable automation that allows you to manage situations and not be so fatigued by the mechanics of flying.”

But the fact that the second pilot’s stick stays in neutral whatever the input to the other is not a good thing. As King concedes: “It’s not immediately apparent to one pilot what the other may be doing with the control stick, unless he makes a big effort to look across to the other side of the flight deck, which is not easy. In any case, the side stick is held back for only a few seconds, so you have to see the action being taken.”

Thus it was that even when Bonin had the A330’s nose pointed upward during the fatal stall, his colleagues failed to comprehend what was going on. It seems clear from the transcripts that Robert assumed the plane was flying level or even descending. Robert himself was panicking: “We still have the engines! What the hell is happening? I don’t understand what’s happening.” Ninety seconds after the emergency began the captain was back in the cockpit demanding: “What the hell are you doing?” To which both pilots responded: “We’ve lost control of the plane!”

Dubois took the seat behind his colleagues and for a while was as perplexed as they were. It was pitch black outside, warning lights were flashing and some of the screens were blank. The men in front partially blocked his view and evidently he did not take much notice of a horizon indicator, which must have shown the plane was still being held nose up. The Airbus was soon falling through the night at 11,000 feet per minute, twice as fast as its forward travel. Only 45 seconds before impact Bonin blurted out that he had been trying to climb throughout the emergency, giving his colleagues the first indication of what had been going wrong. There is one final, dramatic exchange:

02:13:40 (Robert) “Climb… climb… climb… climb…”

02:13:40 (Bonin) “But I’ve had the stick back the whole time!”

02:13:42 (Dubois) “No, no, no… Don’t climb… no, no.”

02:13:43 (Robert) “Descend… Give me the controls… Give me the controls!”

Robert takes control and finally lowers the nose, but at that moment a new hazard warning sounds, telling them the surface of the sea is fast approaching. Robert realises the ghastly truth – that he hasn’t enough height to dive to pick up speed. The flight is doomed.

02:14:23 (Robert) “Damn it, we’re going to crash… This can’t be happening!”

02:14:25 (Bonin) “But what’s going on?”

The captain, now acutely aware of the aircraft’s pitch, has the final word:

02:14:27 (Dubois) “Ten degrees of pitch…”

There the recording ends.

Mercifully, data recordings and impact damage on debris confirm the Airbus was still more or less level when it hit the sea. Some of the passengers might have dozed throughout the descent; others may have attributed it to violent buffeting. Those in window seats would have seen only darkness. There is reason to hope that there was not too much panic on board, but this is small consolation.

It seems surprising that Airbus has conceived a system preventing one pilot from easily assessing the actions of the colleague beside him. And yet that is how their latest generations of aircraft are designed. The reason is that, for the vast majority of the time, side sticks are superb. “People are aware that they don’t know what is being done on the other side stick, but most of the time the crews fly in full automation; they are not even touching the stick,” says Captain King. “We hand-fly the aeroplane ever less now because automation is reliable and efficient, and because fatigue is an issue. [The side stick] is not an issue that comes up – very rarely does the other pilot’s input cause you concern.”

Boeing has always begged to differ, persisting with conventional controls on its fly-by-wire aircraft, including the new 787 Dreamliner, introduced into service this year. Boeing’s cluttering and old-fashioned levers still have to be pushed and turned like the old mechanical ones, even though they only send electronic impulses to computers. They need to be held in place for a climb or a turn to be accomplished, which some pilots think is archaic and distracting. Some say Boeing is so conservative because most American pilots graduate from flying schools where column-steering is the norm, whereas European airlines train more crew from scratch, allowing a quicker transition to side stick control.

Whatever the cultural differences, there is a perceived safety issue, too. The American manufacturer was concerned about side sticks’ lack of visual and physical feedback. Indeed, it is hard to believe AF447 would have fallen from the sky if it had been a Boeing. Had a traditional yoke been installed on Flight AF447, Robert would surely have realised that his junior colleague had the lever pulled back and mostly kept it there. When Dubois returned to the cockpit he would have seen that Bonin was pulling up the nose.

There is another clever gizmo on the Airbus intended to make life simpler for the pilots but that could confound them if they are distracted and overloaded. Computers can automatically adjust the engine thrust to maintain whatever speed is selected by the crew. This means pilots do not need to keep fine-tuning the throttles on the cockpit’s centre console to control the power. But a curious feature of “autothrust” is that it bypasses the manual levers entirely – they simply do not move. This means pilots cannot sense the power setting by touching or glancing at the throttle levers. Instead, they have to check their computer screens. Again Boeing have adopted a different philosophy. They told the Telegraph: “We have heard again and again from airline pilots that the absence of motion with the Airbus flight deck is rather unsettling to them.” In Boeing’s system the manual handles move, even in automatic mode.

All the indications are that the final crash report will confirm the initial findings and call for better training and procedures. With the exception of Air France, which has a vested interest in avoiding culpability, no one has publicly challenged the Airbus cockpit design. And while Air France has modified the pitots on its fleet, it has said nothing about side sticks.

It is extremely unlikely that there will ever be another disaster quite like AF447. Crews have already had the lessons drummed into them and routine refresher courses on simulators have been upgraded to replicate AF447 high-level stalls. Airbus has an excellent safety record, at least as good as Boeing, and the A330 is an extremely trustworthy aircraft. Flying is easily the least dangerous way to travel, far safer than a car. But while more of us take to the air each year, a single crash is enough to damage confidence.

Critics of side sticks may now argue that Airbus should return to the drawing board. A feature designed to make things better for pilots has unintentionally made it harder for them to monitor colleagues in stressful situations. Yet there is no sign that the inquiry will call for changes to the sticks and Airbus remains confident about the safety of its technology. It will resist what it regards as a retrograde step to return to faux-mechanical controls. The company is unable to speak openly during the investigation, but a source close to the manufacturer says: “The ergonomic systems were absolutely not contrived by engineers and imposed on the pilot community. They were developed by pilots from many airlines, working closely with the engineers. What’s more, it has all been tested and certified by the European Aviation Safety Agency and regulators in the United States, and approved by lots of airlines.”

As Captain King points out, a belief in automation and the elegantly simple side sticks in particular, is integral to the Airbus design philosophy: “You would have to build in artificial feedback – that would be a huge modification.”

A defender of Airbus puts it thus: “When you drive you don’t look at the pedals to judge your speed, you look at the speedometer. It’s the same when flying: you don’t look at the stick, you look at the instruments.”

There is a problem with that analogy. Drivers manoeuvre by looking out of the window, physically steering and sensing pressure on the pedals. The speedometer is usually the only instrument a motorist needs to monitor. An airline pilot flying in zero visibility depends upon instruments for direction, pitch, altitude, angle of climb or descent, turn, yaw and thrust; and has to keep an eye on several dozen settings and lights. Flying a big airliner manually is a demanding task, especially if warnings are blaring and anxiety is growing.

Multimillion-euro lawsuits could follow any admission of liability and it is certainly preferable from Airbus’s point of view that Air France should shoulder the blame for the night when AF447 plunged into the void.

However, no one would suggest that, when it comes to the aircraft we all rely on every day, commercial considerations should come anything but a distant second to safety.
~S~

raaaid 05-04-2012 11:35 AM

i would rather fly with a pilot that doesnt know pulling up stalls the plane than with one that has virtually crahsed a million times and amke it an habit

Sternjaeger II 05-04-2012 01:38 PM

I have several friends who switched from Boeing or MDD to Airbus, and they all tell me the same thing: you need to change your mentality when flying one, because in fact you're not flying it, you're telling the computers your intention and they let it happen in the safest (according to their parameters) way.

IMHO there's one major design fault in the Airbus mentality: it dramatically limits the pilot's emergency decisions.

Airbus is a concept designed by engineers, and most of them don't think with a pilot's mentality.

Another issue is that many of the modern pilots don't have experience with conventional large jetliners or smaller aircraft, and consequently don't have a full grasp of unusual flight envelopes and how to recognise/deal with them.

A 737 will give you a totally different feedback when you fly it, the intention of Airbus is to cut the pilot's error off of the risk equation, but it's been demonstrated by several accidents how sometimes the cause of the accidents is because de facto the pilot is put in a secondary decisional position.

To give you an example: if your TCAS has a malfunction (or the other plane's TCAS does) and you have a visual contact that you need to avoid, the flight computers will not allow you to go beyond certain parameters in your avoiding manoeuvre. This is meant to safeguard the plane's structural integrity (which has redundant structural parameters anyways), but the computer doesn't think about the possibility of an unusual manoeuvre or going beyond the preset limits just for the sake of collision avoidance.

The whole idea of letting a machine do the thinking job that a pilot should is insane to me :confused:

bongodriver 05-04-2012 01:40 PM

+1

Sternjaeger II 05-04-2012 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bongodriver (Post 418907)
+1

High five for the old fashioned aviators Bongo! :cool:

Sternjaeger II 05-04-2012 01:46 PM

here, have a read at this for some extra info on the "Airbus mentality"

http://www.airbusdriver.net/airbus_fltlaws.htm

bongodriver 05-04-2012 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II (Post 418909)
High five for the old fashioned aviators Bongo! :cool:

Absolutely, more and more jobs are going to computers and the x-box generation, it's going to bite the world in the ass hard.

JG52Krupi 05-04-2012 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II (Post 418903)
I have several friends who switched from Boeing or MDD to Airbus, and they all tell me the same thing: you need to change your mentality when flying one, because in fact you're not flying it, you're telling the computers your intention and they let it happen in the safest (according to their parameters) way.

IMHO there's one major design fault in the Airbus mentality: it dramatically limits the pilot's emergency decisions.

Airbus is a concept designed by engineers, and most of them don't think with a pilot's mentality.

Another issue is that many of the modern pilots don't have experience with conventional large jetliners or smaller aircraft, and consequently don't have a full grasp of unusual flight envelopes and how to recognise/deal with them.

A 737 will give you a totally different feedback when you fly it, the intention of Airbus is to cut the pilot's error off of the risk equation, but it's been demonstrated by several accidents how sometimes the cause of the accidents is because de facto the pilot is put in a secondary decisional position.

To give you an example: if your TCAS has a malfunction (or the other plane's TCAS does) and you have a visual contact that you need to avoid, the flight computers will not allow you to go beyond certain parameters in your avoiding manoeuvre. This is meant to safeguard the plane's structural integrity (which has redundant structural parameters anyways), but the computer doesn't think about the possibility of an unusual manoeuvre or going beyond the preset limits just for the sake of collision avoidance.

The whole idea of letting a machine do the thinking job that a pilot should is insane to me :confused:

From what I have heard the latest Boeing is more towards an A320 set up than the 737.... (not sure if that's correct!)

Yes your right it was a designed by engineers but it was designed by engineers towards an airlines requirements rather than the pilots, so don't come out with the "engineers don't know this, that etc..." talk.

Its a proven concept and while I understand pilots might find an Airbus boring to fly the airlines like them and there the people who buy the aircraft ;)...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II (Post 418903)
A 737 will give you a totally different feedback when you fly it, the intention of Airbus is to cut the pilot's error off of the risk equation, but it's been demonstrated by several accidents how sometimes the cause of the accidents is because de facto the pilot is put in a secondary decisional position.

Agreed... but a mute point as several accidents have shown that if the aircraft had an "Airbus" system the accident might not have happened... unfortunately there is no fool proof system its entirely situational as to which one "Trumps" the other :-x....

JG52Krupi 05-04-2012 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bongodriver (Post 418920)
Absolutely, more and more jobs are going to computers and the x-box generation, it's going to bite the world in the ass hard.

!!!!!!!!!!!

It about safety, surely any attempt to make flying safe for passengers should be commended?

bongodriver 05-04-2012 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JG52Krupi (Post 418940)
!!!!!!!!!!!

It about safety, surely any attempt to make flying safe for passengers should be commended?


Sadly it has nothing to do with safety but is all to do with making money, you do realise comercial pilots are taken into the simulator just twice a year, and for some it's the only time they even come close to manual flying and even then not all emergencys are practiced, this is all about saving money for the airlines, unlike the military who get continuous training.
No........ real safety will come from properly trained pilots who are well practiced, but because humans are slightly less efficient than computers and burn slighly more fuel (seriously) the airlines discourage hand flying.


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