I tend to think its onliners that are hung up on the importance of dogfighting...if we're thinking of IL2 as a simulation...it simply didn't happen very often...
I'm sure Human opponents are cleverer and more unpredictable opponenets in a maneuver situation...but hey in real life...human opponents were usually stupider and more predictable opponents than we find here vs both AI and online...
Onliners enjoy the challange of a dogfight...because essentially online is a person vs person skill and agility test with little relation to a historic World War 2 aerial simulation (you could substitute WW1 Aerial Combat, FPS's etc etc for WW2 Aerial Combat with little distinction)...it is difficult to make IL2 a realistic World War 2 aerial simulation because the environment we fly in is so sanitised and Oleg has given us a simplified flying experience and an extremely forgiving FM, but merely making your opponents less predictable (where in real life they would have been far more predictable...and far less likely to maneuver at anything like the limits of their planes abilities) doesn't improve it...

And most importantly...and its a big wake up call to the Onliners, but by the time Hurricanes, Wildcats, P40's, I16's and Lagg3's had been replaced by Spitfires, Mustangs, Lightnings, Thunderbolts, Corsairs and La7's...the war had already been won...

Looks like we have a WW2 veteran here LMAO

100% Spits vs 109s... need I say more

They were trained for teamwork and usually tried to work as a team... so I disagree with this statement.
Most of the offliners and a good part of the onliners fly and fight solo... which has absolutly no relation with an historic WWII aerial simulation.

Some do like you say.... but some onliners (not everybody, but more than a minority) enjoy teamwork and try to apply team tactics that you can relate to WWI fighting tactics.
That something you can't do offline in IL2. The colaboration with the AI wingmans is too basic.

It's pretty much 50-50 for me. Most of my online time is on a private server with friends. We do mostly coops and occasionally DF mainly for training purposes. I dabble in HL DF servers but in the most part they irritate me due to the gross lack of discipline of most of the participants. As for which, a rant follows.

<soap_box>
I enjoy the simulated WWII aerial combat experience IL-2 can provide, and DF servers IMO have next to nothing to do with actual WWII aerial combat. No WWII pilot took off thinking "Where's that fur-ball...I'll show everyone who's best". For WWII pilots, it was about mission success and returning to base to do it again. And that is the kind of flying I do with my m8s; we're even toying with the idea "you get shot down, your evening is over" to up the ante. I jump onto the HL DF servers here and there and I find that the mindset is really not that much different than in the Unreal Tournament servers I've played. I totally agree it's fun, but it sure ain't much more than that: WWII combat immersion? forget it!

I'd even go so far as to say it possibly dishonors WWII vets to make something into an amusing past-time (especially those shooter games: CoD et. al.) for which they risked and lost their lives in service to their country. I honestly feel a bit guilty about this.
</soap_box>

100% Online. I hate getting shot by bots... ;)

Perfectly quoted by FlatSpinMan
 

I could not have said this any better, though I occasionally do play 'online' with my son over our LAN.
Quote from Pierre Clostermann's 'The Big Show' - pilot with the Alsace Squadron - "In the middle of the Channel I sensed things were going badly - we accelerated, 2,600 revs. and plus 6 boost, and climbed. (He was flying his Spitfire Mk.IXc NL-B during this mission)
The controller was getting on our nerves:
'Twenty-five Huns, over Abbeville, 15,000 feet, climbing.'
'Thirty plus over Saint-Omer, 20,000 feet, going west.'
'Fifteen plus 10 miles south of Hardelot, no height yet.'
'Forty plus 5 miles from the Big Boys, 25,000 feet, about to engage'.
The whole Luftwaffe was in the air today! things were going to get warm."

The above quote is what 'offline' campaigns are all about - trying to accurately recreate real historical events and then flying them in IL2 - even flying against AI aircraft, things can suddenly get very tough?

I am looking forward to the release of the 'Cross Channel Map Mod' for IL2 from the 352ndVFG, Clockwatcher and Ramjagger and of course BOB SOW to continue making 'offline' historical campaigns.

DFLion

Anyone who thinks they can recreate the WW2 air combat experience in any way, online or off, is out of their mind.

Really guys, it a freaking video game.

A very good one and one that I dearly love, but it's just a video game and none of you are in any danger of death or injury playing it.

Ergo, it can never approach the kind of realism you keep yapping about, as you fly from the comfort of your den, in your nice comfortable chair, with the volume of your speakers or headsets adjusted so as not to cause you to go deaf after 20 missions.

:rolleyes:

Creating WWII air combat experiences in IL2
 

I would like to disagree with you ElAurens - with IL2, Oleg has given us the tools to fairly closely recreate actual WWII combat missions - of course we are all sitting in our comfortable chairs and the thought of danger, death or injury is not really with us - what is with us are suberbly modelled WWII aircraft that sometimes do give you the feeling of flying the real thing (I fly 'real aircraft' privately from time to time and can compare).
The other big feature in IL2 is the FMB where you can recreate a WWII scenario, flak, airfield scenarios, light conditions and weather effects.

Two years ago we had Captain Eric 'Winkle' Brown come onto the forum, highly praising Oleg's WWII aircraft flight dynamics, his only real criticism was about the stick forces.

I have just finished reading Captain Brown's memoirs in his wonderful book 'Wings on my Sleeve'. He is the only man, who thankfully is still with us, that has flown every major and minor combat aircraft of WWII. The flight experiences described in his book with some of these WWII aircraft can very closely be matched in IL2 with Oleg's aircraft.

When Oleg releases BOB SOW and reading what he is saying from the latest posts, we will get a flight sim that will even more closely be able to simulate actual WWII combat experiences.

DFLion

Hi ElAurens and ~S~ to all :-). I concur absolutely Sir. I am very new to posting on forums (though i have been reading them for years ) and my aversion to them in the past has been admittedly because some folk (bless em lol) seem to take IL2 as some kind of LIFE OR DEATH matter which amuses me no end :lol: Yeah, its as real as at present it is going to get.....but C'mon, end of the day its just a game.

RE: Online/off, at present 90% On 10% off; both have their pros and cons, which others have described very well. My main gripe with online is immature idiots/ego-maniacs who ruin the fun for everyone, but just as in LIFE, there are good and bad everywhere.....Call me an optimist but in my experience most folk in this community are decent, friendly and honourable people. When i am shot down by the better pilot (which happens frequently, believe me lol) I will always take the time to congratulate them, and i enjoy the contest no matter the outcome. Unfortunately, not everyone has this outlook, i think you know what I'm talking about hehe :???:

That said, nothing better than flying with people you know don't take themselves or a GAME too seriously, don't get me wrong.....In a co-op you have to too a certain extent, but NOT TOO MUCH! What is the point if not to have fun? :)

My Ha'Penny,

Best regards F/L Orville RCAF_FB

Addendum....I meant 90% OFF 10% on....Do'h! I have a terrible headache :grin: