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- - 109 elevator trim (http://forum.fulqrumpublishing.com/showthread.php?t=30985)

Varratu,

you are plain wrong when you start to categorize!!!

CoD is a game, ok, but still it is also a simulator!

While not as sophisticated as those real "full real" 3-axis simulators of the military and civil manufacturers, it still tries to simulate the flight of those planes.

Of course 99% of us armchair-pilots would puke our guts out if we would try the aerobatics we are talking about here in real life.

I've done some light aerobatics in light planes, so i have a idea what i'm talking about.

That beside is your and mine post OT.

Quote:

Originally Posted by robtek (Post 407088)

Varratu,

... i have a idea what i'm talking about.

That beside is your and mine post OT.

I know ;)

"Ausnahmen bestätigen die Regel."

~S~

If using trim is adjusting the position of the elevator and the joystick also adjusts the position of the elevator how can it possibly be considered a cheat. Having said that all fighters have a similar trim system so if it were a cheat it is a cheat for all fighter ac.

I don't use trim in this way but I have no problem in any one els using trim to control a turn. It seems like another argument for the sake of arguing?

Quote:

Originally Posted by VO101_Tom (Post 407069)

It's not. If you roll the trimm wheel full "tail-heavy", the 109 drop its speed within seconds. You can pull some lead, if the enemy is close, but you have no chance to keep the corner speed, no chance to follow negative G maneuvers, and absolutely no chance to catch the enemy in mirror-spiral.

Yes

Quote:

Originally Posted by 5./JG27.Farber (Post 407060)

Robo, dont confuse the operation of the landing flaps with the operation of the trim wheel. They share a spindle but thats it, they are geared differently. So I dont think that video has any relevance.

I am not confusing anything, the relevance is in the position and access to the wheel control. 5 full turns (or 4 three-quarter turns) were required to adjust the full 12 degree range.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robo. (Post 407129)

I am not confusing anything, the relevance is in the position and access to the wheel control. 5 full turns (or 4 three-quarter turns) were required to adjust the full 12 degree range.

Could you post the reference material

Quote:

Originally Posted by VO101_Tom (Post 407069)

Yes of course, you'll bleed speed due to high AoA. You can pull some lead and hit him after which you don't have to follow and you go vertical as usual. The enemy has some bullets in him already. What I am saying is that in so called real life pilot would have no chance to pull that lead at all because the trim response was not as swift and smooth. I agree on the corner speed and what you call mirror spiral, but in a vertical scissors - go figure ;) Negative G manoeuvres against RAF? Probably not.

With the structural damage nonexistent and this trim response, this is quite important issue if you consider CloD as a simulator. If you read about the trim operation of a 109, it is rather obvious that that is not what we've got in game at the moment, hence this thread.

Quote:

Originally Posted by drewpee (Post 407113)

I disagree, I find this discussion friendly and interesting. An issue has been raised, no one has used the word 'cheat'. There is no argument at all and it is clear that the trim behaviour is questionable and unrealistic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SlipBall (Post 407131)

Could you post the reference material

Of course:

Quote:

Lowering the flaps makes the ailerons feel heavier and slightly less effective, and causes a marked nose-down pitching moment, readily corrected owing to the juxtaposition of trim and flap operating wheels.

Quote:

Longitudinal Trim
Five three-quarter turns of a 11.7 in diameter wheel on the pilot's left are needed to move the adjustable tailplane through its full 12-degrees range. The wheel rotation is in the natural sense. Tailplane and elevator angles to trim were measured at various speeds in various condition; the elevator angles were corrected to constant tail setting. The airplane is statically stable both stick fixed and stick free.

RAF Royal Aircraft Establishment (RAE) Farnborough handling trials,Bf.109E Wn: 1304. M.B. Morgan and R. Smelt of the RAE, 1944

I am aware that this are British tests of a battle-damaged airplane that was apparently not trimmed correctly, but the actual statemens are only re the actual operation and in agreement with the manual.

Quote:

There were no movable trim tab controls on the ailerons or rudder, although both had fixed tabs that could be bent on the ground. Pitch trim was affected by changing the stabilizer incidence thrugh a range of 12 degrees. The design scheme was that both the flaps and the stabilizer were coordinated mechanically from two 12-inch wheels mounted concentrically on the left side of the pilot's seat. By twirling both wheels in the same direction the pilot could automatically compensate for the change of pitch trim due to lowering or raising the flaps. Differential coordination could be set by moving one wheel relative to the other.

Quote:

A series of mock dogfights were conducted by the British in addition to the flight test and the following was revealed:
If the airplane was trimmed for level flight, a heavy push on the stick was needed to hold it in a dive at 400 mph. If it was trimmed into the dive, recovery was difficult unless the trim wheel was wound back, due to the excessive heaviness of the elevator forces.

both quotes above from 'The Best of the Breed by Col. "Kit" Carson Airpower, July 1976 Vol. 6 No. 4'

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robo. (Post 407140)

Of course:

RAF Royal Aircraft Establishment (RAE) Farnborough handling trials,Bf.109E Wn: 1304. M.B. Morgan and R. Smelt of the RAE, 1944

I am aware that this are British tests of a battle-damaged airplane that was apparently not trimmed correctly, but the actual statemens are only re the actual operation and in agreement with the manual.

both quotes above from 'The Best of the Breed by Col. "Kit" Carson Airpower, July 1976 Vol. 6 No. 4'

If in fact the wheel revolutions are correct as you presented, then I would agree the game model is wrong...but I think that you would need more proofs, other than an authored book as a reference.