Perfect example.

In Switzerland you'll spend the next 15 years jail, in Texas they will buy you a jug of beer.

[QUOTE=swiss;189654]Because there are neither good nor evil guys - all lies in the eye of the beholder.


And I quote
"Sorry, I'll have to wave the bullshit flag.

While SH was bitch to his people, at least he had them under control , this control is now lost."


The truth be told. Spoken like a true liberal, the people must be controlled for thier own good............:confused:

oh boy.

You are not that clueless I hope.

I'm talking about two groups: take a guess.

Absolutely ... and so are the other classic US assumptions, that capitalism is good and that individual personal rights are paramount. These are ideological viewpoints that others may disagree with and need to be argued for, not obvious truths about the nature of the Cosmos.

It is pretty much only in the US that democracy is seen as some sort of infallibly perfect "one size fits all" solution that will solve all problems ... and its arguable whether even the US is truly a democracy anymore anyway, for starters most politicians are career politicians who started their apprenticeship for public office with one major party or other sometime around leaving high school so the US is ruled by a "political class" of power brokers.

In actual fact democracy only works in educated relatively well off first world countries such as the US. Even then it is generally corrupted by corporate business interests but in a first world country that does not really matter.

In a third world country where the population is illiterate and poor and the media is controlled by political, religious or business interests elections tend to be a farce and that is before you consider vote rigging.

Democracy does not work in the third world.



One of the most amusing things about US politics though is the way the main proponents of bringing "democracy" to the rest of the world, the far right, really do not actually believe in democracy at all. they believe in "good old American values" and feel have a god given right to rule and that everyone else should just acknowledge that and do as they are told :D

Great stuff .. as usual - thanks FPSOlkor :)

:grin::grin::grin:

I think I see where our disagreement is: I'm talking about "crime and responsibility" versus "crime and punishment".

If a bystander witnesses a crime, they may have some responsibility - if not to stop it, then to testify in court. Similarly, if someone sees a situation which could lead to crime, they have some responsibility to investigate it further and advocate changes that can help prevent it.

I think it was wise to only punish higher level NAZI party leaders and some of the worst war criminals at lower ranks. It is important to not let people get away with such crimes. I wouldn't advocate grabbing your average Hitler youth and fining them for having been a NAZI. However, I might ensure that they look at photos of what their regime had done.

I don't think a time will ever come where Germans can say that they no longer need to know about the Holocaust - that it is time to completely give up that guilt. Their society had an unusual experience and part of correcting that experience is learning from it. So all German's should take responsibility to help ensure such events can never happen again, anywhere.

I'm saying that I'm willing to share in this guilt and responsibility. With the last few people from that war passing on now, we're all bystanders.

I think a distinction needs to be made between "necessary" and "just" or "good". There are times where it is necessary to go to war - there are times when it is even the right choice. But, the result is still horrible and evil.

In other words, it is possible to have a justified war, but not a just one.

I don't think any war-crimes can ever be equated. Each one happened to different people. This is even true of each different crime in the Holocaust.

Swiss: Gawd Bless Texas then lol. Actually, in the vast majority of states here, the homeowner would probably be ok. The District Attorney may choose to prosecute in certain states (like mine) but he/she would be hard pressed to get a jury to convict. It's sad that people are not allowed to protect themselves in their own homes.

Avimimus: Understood. That is why remembering history is so important.

Galway: Our left is much more controlling than our right. You are correct in that neo-cons feel the need to spread democracy, but they are a shrinking group now and their party is being taken over by traditional conservatives.

Yeah, I'll stick to the theory that being able to choose your leaders is a good thing that most people in the world want. Corruption happens everywhere and no system is perfect, but people tend to choose freedom. The question is only whether they are willing to fight for that freedom. I am surprised that you think that democracy should only be reserved for the well off.

In talking about career politicians....you pretty much described out current leadership lol. There is a backlash against those politicians going on now, watch our elections closely next month to see.

We are so far off target now I can't even see the Russian recon pilot lol. Sorry people. I do take my hat off to the men (and women) who flew those birds into combat. Death was a daily companion and killing was expected. No "Refly" button.

Splitter

I guess we're all entitled to our opinion, and I strongly disagree with yours. I don't know what it's like to suffer at the hands of an invading army, to lose close friends and family, and hear their tales of torture, rape etc, so I couldn't say I would act towards that invading army with total dignity. My guess is I'd shoot.

And depleted and running these men may have been, but they still had weapons, and some of them will still have shot allied soldiers and innocent civilians.

I'm glad.

It looks like you Gents are having a debate on a fascinating topic (how committed different parts of society really are to democracy) and I'd love to jump in - but I feel we are a long way from the original focus of the thread. It is also a fascinating topic though.

Maybe I'm clueless what group needed to be controlled? The group with the AKs or the group with the RPGs:confused: