C'mon guys I am myself among the Vets ;)

Total Energy Concepts for Aircraft Performance

It is a specific methodology for quantifying the potential to maneuver. It was initially conceived by Col. John Boyd. It is standard curriculum for the United States Fighter Pilots in the USAF, USN, and USMC.

I can send you a copy of both John Boyd's original paper and the modern methodology if you like.

Using the terms outside of that system has no meaning. It must sound cool, though.

I bought a copy of Cliffs of Dover.

I have Boyds documents. I have used these concepts in aircraft dissimilar performances comparisons for real world tactics development and taught the concepts both in the classroom and in the jet. Its common to pretty much every Air Force in the world.

Fighter pilots use the term "Energy Bleed" everyday its an eloquent way of describing the situation. Fighter pilots are by definition "Cool" so its natural to use cool terminology .... irritates the pencil pushers to no end.

Ahh not really. Most of them I have seen are pissing their pants on the ground when we get to em.

I did that for much of the first gulf war air campaign. They might be something in a plane but out of it, they were not impressive.

Even less impressive are the ones screaming like a little girl on the radio that ground fire is targeting them, shooting for heavens....especially when lives depend on their getting some bombs on target.

Of course, we where on the ground and the only tracer he saw was that going back and forth between us and the enemy.

AWACs finally ordered that guy off station on his third time coming down to ID targets and fleeing the scene and screaming each time.

One of our European allies, too.

I tried out your game. I dove a Spitfire from 17,000 feet at full power in the channel free flight setting on realistic. With the right rudder buried to the stop and jerking the stick back, it not only did not break but I did not even pass out.

That is by no means a blanket statement. I have also seen some very good guys up the air.

A couple of A10 pilots, some USMC F-18's, USN F-14's, and a couple of BundesLuftwaffe Tornado pilots stand out in my mind. They earned a seat at the table.

... Hook line and sinker :)

IvanK, you were already caught, I just let you go...

Just as I thought, Crumpp is a 'Walt', has a real issue with pilots......yeah everybody knows the hard work in air warfare is done by the pencil pushers.

I didn't think that Germany lost any Tornado's and cannot find them in my records on the war, can you give any indication as to dates so I can update them? Indeed I didn't think that Germany took part in the war at all so can you supply any information as to how they arrived in the battle zone it would be of interest.

Who said anything about Germany losing Tornados???

They replaced the scared to death fighter pilot AWAC's moved off station, dropped all of their bombs, expended all their ammunition, and showed back up 45 minutes later ready to play some more.

The tornado pilots were brave men who were willing to fight.

Umm, I am a pilot and make my living in aviation. ;)

I have an issue with people who use terms they don't understand because they think it makes them look smarter.

http://www.terma.com/media/90377/ter...e_may_2008.pdf

They pushed the throttle forward and went where AWACS told them. I was not the TACP, or in this case, CCT but just the guy that says, "drop bombs right there". That is an air force guy whose job it is to control the aircraft. Since there were less than 30 of us, you could say I was co-located in the kill zone with the TACP.

I admit I thought you were, looking at the previous postings which together read


Ahh not really. Most of them I have seen are pissing their pants on the ground when we get to em.

I did that for much of the first gulf war air campaign. They might be something in a plane but out of it, they were not impressive.


That is by no means a blanket statement. I have also seen some very good guys up the air.

A couple of A10 pilots, some USMC F-18's, USN F-14's, and a couple of BundesLuftwaffe Tornado pilots stand out in my mind. They earned a seat at the table.

Clearly I read it wrong but the second part of my question is still something I am confused about. Its my understanding that Germany didn't take part in the air war over Iraq, so where did they come from? German pilots attached to the RAF were withdrawn before deployment at the request of the German authorities so it wasn't the RAF.

That was not in Iraq, it was Afghanistan with the tornados.

The first gulf war we did CSAR out of turkey until the ground war started.

But they only sent recce Tornados to Afghanistan.

It was one of the big gripes that Germany wouldn't put its pilots at risk, the pilots themselves were up for it, but the powers that be wouldn't let them attack anything.

So do I and I know exactly what 'walt' means.

Well at least they weren't so gung-ho that they dropped bombs on friendlies.

They are allowed to defend themselves and other forces. They cannot engage in offensive operations.

They didn't carry bombs or other GA weapons, it was banned so you must admit its an interesting question.

AFIK AG51 Tornados, replacing also the role of the MFG 2 (German Navy Airwing) are only designed to carry AIM-9L (I) "Sidewinder", IRIS-T, 2 Mauser Mk-27 cannons, HARM and KORMORAN 2 or the recce pod. You shouldn´t let the german public know that they were refitted in Astan, while the german ISAF soldier doesn´t even have enough ammunition to return fire on their standard patrols. ;)

How long have you played this game? :-P

Interestingly I don't but I think I can make an inspired guess

Spotting Walts?......a long time.

Yeah, OK. The Germans don't fight in afghanistan.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YyO-S...eature=related

Any tornado can conduct reconnaisance when outfitted with a pod.

http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/4...ngodriver2.jpg

I don't doubt it a bit. I am sure you know plenty of them.

Yup...and now one more.

Who told you this baloney?

thanks for posting that video Crumpp. Interesting watch.

Always odd to an English speaking ear to hear Deutsch spoken by combat soldiers in an engagement. We only ever get exposed to this by "Hollywood".. in a different historical context,....

Afghan is an ISAF party, most european contries have a contingent, seen some footage of Danish and Dutch troops in firefights.

You want to quote the rest of this paragraph after "CG with full Military Load is not known"? You want it explained as to what they did?

The same longitudinal instability characteristics noted by the NACA are found as warnings in the Operating Notes written by the Air Ministry. The accident statistics confirm the validity of the warnings and the NACA findings.

OT but I am always a bit impressed how calm these guys are in combat.

:grin:

http://d3uwin5q170wpc.cloudfront.net...62304_700b.jpg

Yep, those tornado pilots showed up on their own accord 45 minutes after they expended all their ordinance, re-armed, and wanting to play some more. They were warriors.

:grin:

Don't tell me....the fighter pilot that was screaming like a girl was RAF right?

Of course, he wouldn't of mentioned it otherwise.

These are the same pilots who didn't carry any ordinance because their recce aircraft ddn't have the equipment to do so. Or have I missed something

I was talking about the soldiers in the video.

I think the plane briefly seen in the vid is not a tornado. Looks more like a F16 Falcon.

I know you were talking about the soldiers in the video. The ones who are not supposed to fight.

I was talking about the tornado pilots who helped us out that day. Two different things!

Yeah, you missed something.

So what were the 6 unarmed recce Tornados dropping?

Who said 6? A flight of two dropped 4 bombs and made gun runs on the ridgeline until their ammo was expended.

Are you like really surprised that the public gets fed baloney?

Other than "something happenend" almost none of this is correct.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lejay,_Afghanistan

Germany contributed 6 recce tornadoes from 2007...there you have it 6, the choice to send recce tornados was a concious decision in order to calm the German public against the idea of reprisal terrorist acts in Germany if they were dropping bombs.

If people like you are in charge of what they get fed then no.

Yeah......I thought Crumpp's wikipedia link was a facepalmer too.

You misjudge German public opinion. A majority of Germans are against the Afghanistan engagement of Germany because they believe German soldiers should not operate outside of Germany and should only be deployed in pure self defence in the strictest sense.

I just reflect what I read in the polls not my personal opinion.

You know, I was there and saw the whole thing. I know what our CCT guy told us.

Are you saying I could be wrong and the details are not correct?

Whatever way to look at it, German popular oppinion is against involvement in the conflict, the German goverment was under pressure from both sides.....after all just about everyone else in europe got stuck in.

Flowers and Good Karma Dust.

I don't know if you were there or saw the whole thing or what some guy told you, I don't know of the incident and I don't know if youre wrong, I do know wikipedia is notorious for being garbage at times, I do know it has nothing to do with German tornadoes as the event is 2003 and germany contributed tornado ops in 2007.