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-   -   SoW: Battle for Moscow and other Igromir news (http://forum.fulqrumpublishing.com/showthread.php?t=17206)

Freycinet 11-06-2010 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by svanen (Post 196101)
So you think you know better then Oleg and Ilya, five years of development and they are all wrong and it all looks like crap??

He doesn't even know how to spell "awful". Just ignore him.

kendo65 11-06-2010 08:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kedrednael (Post 196091)
I thought sow would be openly moddable. I think it's a good idea to make it modable, in il2 we didn't get cheaters and we have got a lot of great mods :) !

I think people have jumped to the wrong conclusions regarding exactly what the situation will be. To say it will be 'moddable' in the sense that il-2 has become is wrong.

What 1C are going to do (as I understand it) is provide a set of end-user tools to enable third parties to provide additional (small) maps, vehicles, and new aircraft - but all of this will be to tightly specified standards, and ultimately under 1C / Oleg's control.

It will not in any shape or form allow anyone to modify such deep game features as fire effects, smoke, clouds, AI, etc.

Also, to talk enthusiastically of modding the game when it still has 4 months to go before release is crazy!

And regarding the smoke could I remind people that it is still BETA!

edit: other items to be fixed:
glare from the sun
collision model for the trees
+ probably a few dozen others

JG53Frankyboy 11-06-2010 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zakkandrachoff (Post 196065)
ok, i know that german raids over moscow was poors compared with BOB: very low charge of bombs, and incendiary bombs, only to panic the russian center population. offices, theaters and goberment buldings the common bombing target . But not big deal.

The battle are 50-150km west of Moscow.

only i want is that oleg don't do a moscow city battle small scenario.
But compared whit battle of britain, we have more different planes to choose. nice

"The Moscow area PVO had at its disposal the 6 IAK/PVO, which comprised of 29 fighter regiments with 585 fighters: "
- 170 MiG-3s
- 95 Yak-1s
- 75 LaGG-3s
- 200 I-16s
- 45 I-153s
maybe Mk II Hurricanes


axis

Bf 109E-3
Bf 109E-7
Bf 109F-2
Bf 109F-4
Bf 110

Re 2000s
CR.42s
B-534-I

maybe...
He 112;)
51 C.200s (Corpo Italiano di Spedizione in Russia).

http://www.journal.forces.gc.ca/vo9/.../Canuel-6t.jpg

the german operation "Taifun" and the soviet counteroffensive planeset would have a wide choice of airplanes, and interesting too

Yak-1, MiG-3, LaGG-3,P-40C (Tomahawk),I-16,I-153, IL-2, DB-3/IL-4, Pe-2/3
vs
Bf109F, Bf109E-7/B, Bf110D/E, Ju87B, Hs123, Ju88A, He111

and sure a lot more :D

late41/early42 can be a very interesting scenario.

Romanator21 11-06-2010 08:53 PM

I agree that the smoke is a bit strong, but it is far from "awful". It's not the end of the world anyway...remember how much Il-2 v1.0 changed? (specifically, the ginormous gun flashes, etc). Now in SoW there are no apparent gun-flashes at all, the way it should be, and I'm sure effects like smoke will be tuned.

LukeFF 11-06-2010 08:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by svanen (Post 196101)
So you think you know better then Oleg and Ilya, five years of development and they are all wrong and it all looks like crap??

philip.ed is like a broken record. Don't pay him much attention.

JVM 11-06-2010 09:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rodolphe (Post 196010)
...


Though the dockyards layout looks different today, this Junkers Ju88 A-1 could be flying over the Port of Le Havre.

http://users.teledisnet.be/web/mfe39146/LeHavre.jpg


...

It is indeed, and the rendition of the harbor shapes is quite good. The part on the right is missing a dock, but that's about it. The town, industrial zones and greenies (or lack of) still need a bit of work, but hat has to be expected for a WIP.

Nicely done!

JVM

major_setback 11-06-2010 10:29 PM

Animals!!!!

http://sukhoi.ru/forum/attachment.ph...4&d=1288988762

Training aids and fuel storage:

http://sukhoi.ru/forum/attachment.ph...6&d=1288989638

Airfield:

http://sukhoi.ru/forum/attachment.ph...7&d=1288989638

THE MAP!! Unfortunately we cant see if this is all of it.


http://sukhoi.ru/forum/attachment.ph...1&d=1288989838

http://sukhoi.ru/forum/attachment.ph...4&d=1288989838

http://sukhoi.ru/forum/attachment.ph...7&d=1288991548

http://sukhoi.ru/forum/attachment.ph...9&d=1288991548

http://sukhoi.ru/forum/attachment.ph...2&d=1289028512

winny 11-06-2010 10:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by philip.ed (Post 196084)
That smoke really looks aweful. At first I thought they had nailed it, but look how thick it is! It's like WoP. I've never seen anything like this in any guncam videos for an extended period of time like this. Hopefully it's still very much WIP.
I think the gunsmoke is overdone as well too.

Sorry Philip but I don't think you've thought this one through.. Gun camera footage almost never shows aircraft smoking heavily because that happens later

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/153/4...db398b1333.jpg

http://www.historyplace.com/unitedst...ficwar/265.jpg

Gun camera footage only shows you what happened whilst the trigger was pressed and I know that nobody in WWII spent much time wasting ammo on planes that were basically already dead.

philip.ed 11-06-2010 11:16 PM

So if it happens later then why does it happen instantaneously in SoW? Just curious.
It dies happen, but from videos seems quite rare. Of course this is debateable, by the smoke just looks unnatural on that level vin those pictures it looks natural but in SoW the smoke seems to start really thick and transcend at the same type of thickness
I'd happily have Oleg show real evidence to dispute me and prove SoW right, but don't forget that last time I said this luthier responded and said they all hated the smoke and were still trying to get it to the level they wanted

major_setback 11-06-2010 11:52 PM

Question and answer with Oleg. This translates badly using online translation. I filled in the blanks, using guesswork. A lot of guesswork! Please bear that in mind. Maybe someone from Russia can do a better translation? Anyway, ...for the time being:



Q: Somebody who will be tomorrow, please, crash in a wood. I wish to see what effects make trees.

Oleg: Respectfully....trees at an exhibition do not have model of impact.

__

Q: In IL2 it was possible. At height less 30m above water to put the plane into a loop - not such long and realistic as on a photo, but the phenomenon has been simulated at least. I do not think, that in the BoB it is possible at all. But to see if it is realized in BoB, really, would be interesting.

Oleg: Many effects at an exhibition are not present. Up to present programming, but the guy that draws-models them all over again sick, then on holiday... Well also have not inserted. And in a code - only on different exhausts depending on a mixture..

__

Q: So... aircraft carriers will be? Strange.

Oleg: Is not present will not be.
And not anything for them; it was not programmed even for the future.

__

Q: Animals move..?

Oleg: For animals animation is disconnected. They looked a little 'crookedly'; also bugs.

__

Q: Probably somewhere the information already slipped but I have not paid attention - too many impressions... The standard picture is by default calculated On what monitor in game - special [ed:wide?] or normal? And then I shall see on the 4:3 monitor expanded verticals or the cut down horizontals?
And once again about release date - when this question was asked the conference , " spring 2010" was the answer; or "not earlier than spring 2010 and then depending on what happens [ed: how it turns out]"...so?

Oleg: Wide. And any dimension is allowed.
Yes 4*3 if still around - that the left firms or which do not suit neither transfer of colour, nor under the response, in general on quality.
I can not find, where about devices it is told... It is available in view of probably when you fly without a cockpit.
These devices all are adjusted on the size and quantity deduced. Though in general in 10 pixels to itself make having shifted as a window.

__

Q: ... I saw a complex editor... a type such as the one "olden time" Il-2.. ... You start " run" under the menu... In the new one: there are a lot of adjustments, there and then and thin adjustments-dead a zone, the response, etc... In adjustments of the Pilot it is possible to change physical appearance; moustaches and without, different types of a life jacket, an oxygen mask and without, different types of an overalls, a peak-cap or not etc..

Oleg: Well I once asked, to keep or not type (Il2) of the editor... 90 % have voted to keep, that it was easy to master that have already mastered it. Have simply added on most "wishes" there..

__

Q: And tell.. user skins will be available online? Or will be possible only to hope for? And how big and in what format?

Oleg: User skins online; how big... I do not know... not ready to answer. I did not pay attention.
And a format I do not know. We changed it one thousand times and Igor has chosen that result - I did not ask yet.

__

Q: On presentation you showed work of the game on 30 km of height. A question about it. Whether parameters of the plane (not only aerodynamics) but also "boiling" of gasoline, etc. on various (> 10 km) heights will be dealt with properly now? Whether such parameters are laid.
And still. In the future "Fight for Moscow" it will be done in view of responses of pilots "новоделов" or not? In "The Straight Wings" there is a description by the pilot which piloted both I-16 and Mig-3. It gives a little bit other description of the plane, than it is modelled in il2.

Oleg: I about boiling of gasoline, to tell the truth for the first time hear. In one report of tests of high-altitude piston planes did not see such mention.
Probably it is a question not of boiling and about liberation of gas... It not a problem and at proper adjustment of the high-altitude proof-reader and availability of the filter of problems is not caused also by the pilot about it at all does not know. Show me where you such have read it?
Mig-3: It will be considered. However... centering at the present is not what it was 40 years ago. Engine weight is different.
Yes.. As an expert has shown, reactions of modern pilots flying the same planes as in the second world war are very different.... Let alone veterans.

__

Q: Can you tell in what stage there is "Battle for Moscow "? Are "Battle of Britain " and " Battle of Moscow " done in parallel, or you have simply specified the future progress of game?

Oleg: Initially I am showing what will be. Yes, it is one of ways of progress.

__





I didn't translate all questions..some were impossible to understand from the translation.

From:
http://sukhoi.ru/forum/showthread.php?t=65178&page=3



---

=69.GIAP=TOOZ 11-06-2010 11:54 PM

Well, honestly, I had noticed the seemingly excessive gunsmoke as well, and it does look somewhat overdone. However, something I noticed right off the bat is how the gunsmoke actually responds to the wind or airflow during flight. When in the air the guns fire and the gunsmoke billows out and then flows behind over the wings, but on the ground, when the stationary Hurricane fires its guns the smoke is propelled forward! I thought that was a neat detail!

winny 11-07-2010 12:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by philip.ed (Post 196125)
So if it happens later then why does it happen instantaneously in SoW? Just curious.
It dies happen, but from videos seems quite rare. Of course this is debateable, by the smoke just looks unnatural on that level vin those pictures it looks natural but in SoW the smoke seems to start really thick and transcend at the same type of thickness
I'd happily have Oleg show real evidence to dispute me and prove SoW right, but don't forget that last time I said this luthier responded and said they all hated the smoke and were still trying to get it to the level they wanted

You're right about it being all or nothing with very little in between. I think I was being pedantic.

zakkandrachoff 11-07-2010 12:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zakkandrachoff (Post 196065)
ok, i know that german raids over moscow was poors compared with BOB: very low charge of bombs, and incendiary bombs, only to panic the russian center population. offices, theaters and goberment buldings the common bombing target . But not big deal.

The battle are 50-150km west of Moscow.

only i want is that oleg don't do a moscow city battle small scenario.
But compared whit battle of britain, we have more different planes to choose. nice

"The Moscow area PVO had at its disposal the 6 IAK/PVO, which comprised of 29 fighter regiments with 585 fighters: "
- 170 MiG-3s
- 95 Yak-1s
- 75 LaGG-3s
- 200 I-16s
- 45 I-153s
maybe Mk II Hurricanes


axis

Bf 109E-3
Bf 109E-7
Bf 109F-2
Bf 109F-4
Bf 110

Re 2000s
CR.42s
B-534-I

maybe...
He 112;)
51 C.200s (Corpo Italiano di Spedizione in Russia).

http://www.journal.forces.gc.ca/vo9/.../Canuel-6t.jpg

Quote:

Originally Posted by JG53Frankyboy (Post 196110)
the german operation "Taifun" and the soviet counteroffensive planeset would have a wide choice of airplanes, and interesting too

Yak-1, MiG-3, LaGG-3,P-40C (Tomahawk),I-16,I-153, IL-2, DB-3/IL-4, Pe-2/3
vs
Bf109F, Bf109E-7/B, Bf110D/E, Ju87B, Hs123, Ju88A, He111

and sure a lot more :D

late41/early42 can be a very interesting scenario.

yep, we dont know the exactly time. i sayd barbarossa, but now i believe when we said Battle FOR Moscow we are talking about late 1941- begining 1942.

maybe we have very early version of Focke Wulf 190 A and P-40

Anyway.
I want 1941-1942 continuation war.

Freycinet 11-07-2010 12:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by philip.ed (Post 196116)
Really, a simple spelling error makes my posts pointless? Don't be such a bigot; it's people like you that lead to wars (ahem Hitler) but of course, none of this is taken personally. And I got an A-star and an A in English. Shock; get a re-mark. Come on, that was extremely uncalled for.

You compare me to HITLER?? People like me "lead to wars"?

- And then you go on to say that referring to your bad spelling (which just reflects your thinking, honestly) is "extremely uncalled for"??

Oh, by the way, we need to see a scan of your report card, you can't just come in here and claim those grades without proof. *Rolling eyes*

....The crackpots this forum attracts...

major_setback 11-07-2010 12:46 AM

More QA.

Some of this was posted before, and SaQSoN has also translated some of it. Some was new to me, so I'll post it here too. This was from an earlier QA post in the same thread:

Q: Notes look like they were copied and pasted from English.

Oleg:
Almost indeed. Ilya did the English.... Russian - well say so: not everyone understands the specific characters of aircraft, and terminology of pilots....
It will be corrected...
And the 'normal sight' refers to bombing...
In general, maybe tomorrow I will look and will tell about possibilities of adjustments of settings... certainly in general can though one page to remember.

But I remind you: the Interface looks not final. And much that will change. There are in general some menus that are not issued, and service commands of access to some functions only.

__

Q: ...1) the server as it was in Il-2 is built already in game.
2) Is not present ' debris ' from an opponent getting enough from the plane at hit from machine guns. As a guide, it is possible only by the flashes specifying where exactly the bullet has gone.

Oleg: 1. Not at all as in Il-2. But yes, it is built in.
2. there is a debris, but it much finer. But sometimes fly away the whole panels.
Who closely looked video where Blenheim it is attacked, there besides "dust" a large bit flies away and almost hits the Messer', flying up behind.

__

Q: Settings: The column for the keyboard and a column for joystick and as to make a key of clearing of programmed buttons on functions. It is certainly used already in many simulators. But function the extremely convenient.
In general, there is a sense in the air about that of unforeseen functions? That is possible to alter it is according to the submitted applications?
That the interface not final is clear.

Oleg:
There there is a section, both for buttons and for axes. Also there is a choice of the screen adjustments. In general for the plane, settings for chambers, types and ... it will not seem too little. You simply probably have not still seen it all.
There is even a section of adjustments of landing in machines [ed:AI?].... But while only pair lines. And in release it will be closed. For the time being.
In general adjustments, even I am so much in wonder....

__

Q: In settings so much interesting has appeared in comparisons to Il2. For example heating of any arrangements of the plane, switching of tanks, the task of allocations of dropping of bombs. By the way in the same place management of cars is separately adjusted..

Oleg: Still this all would work without mistakes at regular intervals getting out.... But yes... As you can see, long-term wishes of users of Il2 have been heard.
All right...

__

Skoshi Tiger 11-07-2010 01:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by =69.GIAP=TOOZ (Post 196128)
Well, honestly, I had noticed the seemingly excessive gunsmoke as well, and it does look somewhat overdone. However, something I noticed right off the bat is how the gunsmoke actually responds to the wind or airflow during flight. When in the air the guns fire and the gunsmoke billows out and then flows behind over the wings, but on the ground, when the stationary Hurricane fires its guns the smoke is propelled forward! I thought that was a neat detail!

Plt Off Colin Gray had this to say about his first shots in anger.

"Suddenly, we found ourselves in amongst a gaggle of 109s. I opened fire at one of them, but stopped when I noticed smoke coming back over my wings. That smoke shook me - I thought somebody was firing at me. I pulled round hard but there was nobody there - what I had seen was cordite smoke billowing back from my own guns."

I dont know if the effect shown in the sim is accurate or not but quotes like that suggests that the smoke was plainly visible from the cockpit, (and how little experience some of these pilots had. You would thought they'd fired their guns in training????) .

I wonder what the effect would look like from the cockpit?

Cheers!

major_setback 11-07-2010 01:43 AM

Online map?

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g2...7a_003copy.jpg

Luffe 11-07-2010 02:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by major_setback (Post 196141)
Online map?

I hope so. :P

Anyway, that map reminded me that we haven't seen any forrested areas 'up close' in SOW.
I hope they are not managed the same way as Il2s 'pancake' forrests.

Have anyone spotted anything about this in the vids from Igromir?

major_setback 11-07-2010 02:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luffe (Post 196143)
I hope so. :P

Anyway, that map reminded me that we haven't seen any forrested areas 'up close' in SOW.
I hope they are not managed the same way as Il2s 'pancake' forrests.

Have anyone spotted anything about this in the vids from Igromir?

I think these are the closest:

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g2.../bob15copy.jpg

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g2.../bob17copy.jpg

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g2.../bob12copy.jpg

Luffe 11-07-2010 02:40 AM

Thanks. I had not seen those.

Looks great from that altitude.

GOA_Potenz 11-07-2010 05:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rodolphe (Post 195981)
...




Well a starboard oxygen installation will be perfect for the Supermarine Spitfire. ;)



http://users.teledisnet.be/web/mfe39146/56.jpg

WOW that's the first photo of BoB from 2005
Now after 5 years clorse to release and anxeity
waiting to fl over the channel

kendo65 11-07-2010 07:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by =69.GIAP=TOOZ (Post 196128)
Well, honestly, I had noticed the seemingly excessive gunsmoke as well, and it does look somewhat overdone. However, something I noticed right off the bat is how the gunsmoke actually responds to the wind or airflow during flight. When in the air the guns fire and the gunsmoke billows out and then flows behind over the wings, but on the ground, when the stationary Hurricane fires its guns the smoke is propelled forward! I thought that was a neat detail!

I remember seeing film of a diving BOB era Spitfire firing its guns and was surprised at the amount of smoke. Was trying to locate it to post here, but no luck so far.

kedrednael 11-07-2010 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kendo65 (Post 196167)
I remember seeing film of a diving BOB era Spitfire firing its guns and was surprised at the amount of smoke. Was trying to locate it to post here, but no luck so far.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtxBe6zPuys at 10:45 you can see some ki46's or something shooting, the guns generate a lot of smoke, the only difference with the smoke in SOW is that the smoke lasts longer in real life.

Sven 11-07-2010 10:58 AM

now that I´ve seen some splendid work on the oil leaks and oil on the canopy:shock:, I hope there will also be oil trails over the fuselage like in one of my old flight sims called B17: the mighty 8th, when an engine leaked oil it spread over the wing and left trails on the elevator as well.

David603 11-07-2010 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JG53Frankyboy (Post 195855)
And you See a picture of the 4 "actual" Spitfires , a MkIIa And 3 MkIs - whatever the differences between them will be.......

At a guess, Spitfire MkI Early(2 blade prop/possibly flat canopy), Spitfire Mk1, and Spitfire MkIb (2 20mm cannon).

Ltbear 11-07-2010 11:29 AM

it all just looks amazing.....hoping that there will come some pacific module to this......love 1940 to 1942 pacific...after that its about "racing machines" lol....

Ltbear

JVM 11-07-2010 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by major_setback (Post 196122)
THE MAP!! Unfortunately we cant see if this is all of it.

It goes at least 120 km more down to the South (SaQSoN said so recently)... There should be a bit of Belgium, so some is missing to the East.
I do not believe it is going much farther to the West that what is shown already.

However nothing official has been announced yet!

JVM

kedrednael 11-07-2010 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by philip.ed (Post 196190)

Nice footage Kedrednael. But can a .303 be compared to a point .50?

Well, both bullets are shot from a machine gun and that generates the smoke,

what kind of bullets do P51's use? there is also some footage of them shooting.
look at 4:14 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2uhpoLJHTTc that are P51's shooting, and it still generates a lot of smoke.

Feuerfalke 11-07-2010 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by philip.ed (Post 196190)
...

I'm not taking sides in your discussion, but forgive me a personal comment:

No matter how good your grades or arguments are, if you make such a lighthearted Hitler-comparison, that doesn't speak for your intellect nor for your education.


@ kedrednael:

Nice video. Note, though, that not the bullets cause the smoke. What causes the smoke is the burning tracer.

You can see this effect in IL2 as well: If you 50s or 303s at the ground or water, you will see a lot more impact than tracers with smoke. It's the same in these videos.
And knowing that, you might remember it's still WIP and that it's highly doubtful Oleg modeled something in IL2 that he suddenly forgets when making SoW. So IMHO this discussion can end here.

swiss 11-07-2010 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Feuerfalke (Post 196221)
I'm not taking sides in your discussion, but forgive me a personal comment:

No matter how good your grades or arguments are, if you make such a lighthearted Hitler-comparison, that doesn't speak for your intellect nor for your education.

No, but now we can take a guess about his age.
Explains some statements.

Freycinet 11-07-2010 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luffe (Post 196143)
I hope so. :P

Anyway, that map reminded me that we haven't seen any forrested areas 'up close' in SOW.
I hope they are not managed the same way as Il2s 'pancake' forrests.

Have anyone spotted anything about this in the vids from Igromir?

Luffe, the "pancake" forests you disparage were an absolutely brilliant programming solution to a problem that, up till Il-2, hadn't been solved by any flight sim: how to show a forest cover of large extension. Oleg solved this with four layers of semi-transparent textures that gave an exceptionally good illusion of a forest of 3D trees from just a few hundred meters up.

I think you probably weren't around playing flight sims in 2001 when Il-2 came out, but the graphics blew everything else out of the water back then. And the particular solution for forests is still a very clever one.

You have to know something about programming and system resources to understand why flight sims look the way they do. A handful of teenage kids in this forum haven't got a clue, but most have an idea...

MD_Titus 11-07-2010 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by philip.ed (Post 196245)
I've never hidden my age; it doesn't take from my intelligence.
I mean it never stopped Oleg from accepting my information on RAF flight-kit for SoW.

Seriously, just grow up. I make one comment saying that, from my perspective, the smoke looked wrong (as no guncam footage has ever shown it on that level) and you all get your knickers in a twist.

ahhh love the arrogance. your exam scores are just that, exam scores. well done. *golfclap*

no one cares.

godwin's law. been a while since we saw it being invoked.

as for
Quote:

Rebuking someone because they can't spell is like singling out minorities.
oh lol. i mean there's so much wrong with this i can't actually be bothered to start on it. you got yourself into a hole with the hitler comment, stop digging. it just makes you look foolish.

you make a series of comments where you say the game looks poor and you hope this is an early beta as it looks awful, near constantly in fact. you only ever add in the proviso of "in my opinion" or "appears to me" after about 4-5 pages of getting ripped into for a comment that categorically states something is awful or wrong... for someone who prides themselves on their grammar school education and being intelligent, you sure do make your points in such a way as to render 90% of your posts pointless. i'd be asking for my money back, because simply assuming yourself to be in the right, rather than voicing an opinion, is quite a critical error when passing judgement, and an approach i'd expect to be hammered out of you at grammar school. however we then come back to arrogance, and no amount of expensive education can hammer that out. in fact it can all too often entrench it.

oh, and way to go to the gutter with "remind yourself what a woman really is".

kedrednael 11-07-2010 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Feuerfalke (Post 196221)
@ kedrednael:
Nice video. Note, though, that not the bullets cause the smoke. What causes the smoke is the burning tracer.

You can see this effect in IL2 as well: If you 50s or 303s at the ground or water, you will see a lot more impact than tracers with smoke. It's the same in these videos.
And knowing that, you might remember it's still WIP and that it's highly doubtful Oleg modeled something in IL2 that he suddenly forgets when making SoW. So IMHO this discussion can end here.

I know you can't see the bullets flying etc.
But I was reffering to the gun smoke comming out of the wings of the planes when firing, when I showed the ki46 firing with the smoke behind them philipeed said: "can a .303 be compared to a point .50?" I think he thought that if a smaller caliber bullet is fired there is a lot less smoke comming from the wings.
But in the last vid you can see the P51's firing and there is also a lot of smoke comming from their wings (P51 fire .303 rounds don't they?).

MD_Titus 11-07-2010 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kedrednael (Post 196171)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtxBe6zPuys at 10:45 you can see some ki46's or something shooting, the guns generate a lot of smoke, the only difference with the smoke in SOW is that the smoke lasts longer in real life.

overmodelled, clearly!

6x.50 against 8x.303... probably going to be comparable amount of smoke, i'd guess.
Quote:

Originally Posted by philip.ed (Post 196190)
My point is that bigotry comments like that is what leads to people like Hitler. ....
can't see what it is that cannoysyou so much and ....

1. correcting people on spelling and grammar isn't bigotry phil. really isn't.

2. lol

MD_Titus 11-07-2010 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kedrednael (Post 196250)
I know you can't see the bullets flying etc.
But I was reffering to the gun smoke comming out of the wings of the planes when firing, when I showed the ki46 firing with the smoke behind them philipeed said: "can a .303 be compared to a point .50?" I think he thought that if a smaller caliber bullet is fired there is a lot less smoke comming from the wings.
But in the last vid you can see the P51's firing and there is also a lot of smoke comming from their wings (P51 fire .303 rounds don't they?).

nah, that's not a ki-46, it's a p-51 at 10.45 i'd say, and they have three .50 cals per wing.

Foo'bar 11-07-2010 03:59 PM

This discussion is getting out of control :( wake me up when there's something new about topic.

Luffe 11-07-2010 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freycinet (Post 196227)
Luffe, the "pancake" forests you disparage were an absolutely brilliant programming solution to a problem that, up till Il-2, hadn't been solved by any flight sim: how to show a forest cover of large extension. Oleg solved this with four layers of semi-transparent textures that gave an exceptionally good illusion of a forest of 3D trees from just a few hundred meters up.

I think you probably weren't around playing flight sims in 2001 when Il-2 came out, but the graphics blew everything else out of the water back then. And the particular solution for forests is still a very clever one.

You have to know something about programming and system resources to understand why flight sims look the way they do. A handful of teenage kids in this forum haven't got a clue, but most have an idea...

Whoa, lighten up. I realize they were made that way to save resources, and they look great from altitude. At ground level they are nearly invisible though, as I'm sure many mudmovers can tell you.
I just hope that a different solution has been found for SOW.

I really don't understand your attitude.
It must really be torture for you to read through the posts on this forum.

Hecke 11-07-2010 04:03 PM

why do you people have to argue about how and what other people say?
Can't you just discuss about SoW?

MD_Titus 11-07-2010 04:06 PM

i doubt it was the mis-spelling that was felt to render it pointless phil, but if you want to stick to that line of argument to try and validate earlier, possibly unwise, comparisons then knock yourself out.

and the best way of supporting yourself?

jockstraps ftw.

Quote:

Originally Posted by philip.ed (Post 196257)
Serously Nearmiss; this guy is way out of line. I am partially dyslexic.

as that's the case then i retract my "lol". however it isn't based on bigotry, i just find any arguments based on mis-spelling quite absurd and ludicrous.

MD_Titus 11-07-2010 04:13 PM

mine has a juke box and lights. it pwns.

Sven 11-07-2010 04:28 PM

has anyone posted page 4 of simHQ?, well just making sure, here it is:

http://www.simhq.com/_air13/air_468a.html

at the bottom of that page simHQ announces an interview with Oleg to be published soon, looking forward to that one!

philip.ed 11-07-2010 04:38 PM

I can't wait either.
I'm just hoping that we won't read and think: "hmm, Oleg has answered twice as many questions here, all of which were better!" :-P

kedrednael 11-07-2010 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Foo'bar (Post 196253)
This discussion is getting out of control :( wake me up when there's something new about topic.

people are saying they are looking forward to an interview with Oleg.. new! welcome back :)

Richie 11-07-2010 05:03 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Ok.Do you want my story?...Of course you do.

Bob met Charlotte during the Battle of France. They fell madly in love. Sadly Bob had to return to England when the Germans took over France. For months some how they have kept in touch and in the thick of the Battle of Britain he has arranged to pick her up on the beach just out side of Calais so he can bring he back to England where they are to be married. Things seem to be going well at first......then................

Erich Rudorfer is flying back to JG 2 when he sees a Spitfire........ :)


To be continue spring of 2011

philip.ed 11-07-2010 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richie (Post 196277)
Ok.Do you want my story?...Of course you do.

Bob met Charlotte during the Battle of France. They fell madly in love. Sadly Bob had to return to England when the Germans took over France. For months some how they have kept in touch and in the thick of the Battle of Britain he has arranged to pick her up on the beach just out side of Calais so he can bring he back to England where they are to be married. Things seem to be going well at first......then................

Erich Rudorfer is flying back to JG 2 when he sees a Spitfire........ :)


To be continue spring of 2011

Love it! :D

1.JaVA_Sharp 11-07-2010 05:20 PM

why do I have a feeling that Faith Hill is going to become popular in these circles?

Richie 11-07-2010 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by philip.ed (Post 196278)
Love it! :D


Thanks Philip. Thought you'd get a kick out of it :)

Hey maybe we could squeeze a mission out of it.

philip.ed 11-07-2010 05:36 PM

Another great reason to look forward to SoW.
This sim is going to be a blast ;)

Richie 11-07-2010 05:49 PM

Agree 100%. When I first got 2001 IL-2 me and my friends..Graff, who was then Pope..Herr-Spray, Willie, Fritag, Uhoh7, Josh and others I can't remember would spend up to 12 hrs battling or as long as we could hang on till our head smashed into our joysticks. I'm sure the same will happen in the spring.

I actually still have some old screenshots of that old sim and it still looks quite good.

Blackdog_kt 11-07-2010 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by major_setback (Post 196132)
Q: In settings so much interesting has appeared in comparisons to Il2. For example heating of any arrangements of the plane, switching of tanks, the task of allocations of dropping of bombs. By the way in the same place management of cars is separately adjusted..

Oleg: Still this all would work without mistakes at regular intervals getting out.... But yes... As you can see, long-term wishes of users of Il2 have been heard.
All right...

__

Alright! Fully functional aircraft components and subsystems, ahoy! :grin:

Also,

Quote:

Originally Posted by major_setback (Post 196141)

...can't wait to take this flying coffin into wavetop flying, cross channel raids with a fully human crew in multiplayer. Well, at least in the begining, then maybe i'll get tired of flying 15 minutes across the channel to have my Blenheim cut in half by marauding 110s every time :-P

philip.ed 11-07-2010 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richie (Post 196287)
Agree 100%. When I first got 2001 IL-2 me and my friends..Graff, who was then Pope..Herr-Spray, Willie, Fritag, Uhoh7, Josh and others I can't remember would spend up to 12 hrs battling or as long as we could hang on till our head smashed into our joysticks. I'm sure the same will happen in the spring.

I actually still have some old screenshots of that old sim and it still looks quite good.

I still have the demo installed on an old PC! Man I loved that demo. Funnily enough, I played it after the first-release! Because my PC couldn't handle the original game.
Seriously, all SoW has to be is Il-2 in the BoB theatre for it to be a winner for me ;)

Richie 11-07-2010 06:20 PM

That's when I started too. There was the G2 a Sturmovik a P-39 and that was it right? I think in the Demo #2 there also is a 190

philip.ed 11-07-2010 08:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richie (Post 196298)
That's when I started too. There was the G2 a Sturmovik a P-39 and that was it right? I think in the Demo #2 there also is a 190

Yes, that was it! I need to install it onto my current PC and have a go. Apparently it's still a blast. I'd bet money on this being so. For a 10-year old game, that really is truly groundbreaking IMO.

Hecke 11-07-2010 08:36 PM

lots of ingame footage.

http://www.sukhoi.ru/forum/showpost....&postcount=839


Quite a few heavy bugs.
For example the crash of two planes. The hurri goes through the bomber as if it was air and the propeller still works.

Fortunately, Oleg still has a lot of time to fix that stuff.

Sven 11-07-2010 09:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hecke (Post 196319)
lots of ingame footage.

http://www.sukhoi.ru/forum/showpost....&postcount=839


Quite a few heavy bugs.
For example the crash of two planes. The hurri goes through the bomber as if it was air and the propeller still works.

Fortunately, Oleg still has a lot of time to fix that stuff.

thank you hecke, those are some nice video´s, I have no doubt that these bugs will be fixed.

Especially this one: http://rutube.ru/tracks/3751511.html...e9394af16dc918 a simulated reload! YES!!!

+ in these vids I didn't saw any form of lag or lock-ups above land

Abbeville-Boy 11-07-2010 09:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by philip.ed (Post 196316)
Yes, that was it! I need to install it onto my current PC and have a go. Apparently it's still a blast. I'd bet money on this being so. For a 10-year old game, that really is truly groundbreaking IMO.

i don't have that demo could you post more info or better yet a picture of it? tank u

major_setback 11-07-2010 09:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hecke (Post 196319)
lots of ingame footage.

http://www.sukhoi.ru/forum/showpost....&postcount=839


Quite a few heavy bugs.
For example the crash of two planes. The hurri goes through the bomber as if it was air and the propeller still works.

Fortunately, Oleg still has a lot of time to fix that stuff.

Wake up Foo'bar!!!!
:-)

Thanks, thanks, thanks for posting.

philip.ed 11-07-2010 10:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abbeville-Boy (Post 196329)
i don't have that demo could you post more info or better yet a picture of it? tank u

Search mission4today for it. I have it on my old PC, but the pc is quite old and was never intended for gaming. My laptop, which I play il2 on with max settings, would easily play it, but I'd need to install it first. I will try and reinstall it oneday.

But yes, the demo can still be found on the Internet. Mission4today is the best source

major_setback 11-07-2010 11:23 PM

Lots of nice detail reaching towards the horizon :-o

http://sukhoi.ru/forum/attachment.ph...5&d=1289059883

http://sukhoi.ru/forum/attachment.ph...7&d=1289059883

undercut 11-07-2010 11:31 PM

Nice find Hecke. Keep em coming.

Richie 11-08-2010 12:00 AM

That Stuka is quite something and that last video with the sunset or sunrise with the 110 looks fantastic

Richie 11-08-2010 12:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abbeville-Boy (Post 196329)
i don't have that demo could you post more info or better yet a picture of it? tank u


This seems to work Abbeville-Boy.


http://www.bigdownload.com/games/il2...turmovik-demo/


Also they still have a skin site for the smaller templates


http://il2skins.free.fr/

Richie 11-08-2010 12:26 AM

3 Attachment(s)
Here are some old IL-2 2001 screens.

Avimimus 11-08-2010 03:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freycinet (Post 196227)
Luffe, the "pancake" forests you disparage were an absolutely brilliant programming solution to a problem that, up till Il-2, hadn't been solved by any flight sim: how to show a forest cover of large extension. Oleg solved this with four layers of semi-transparent textures that gave an exceptionally good illusion of a forest of 3D trees from just a few hundred meters up.

Correct that - "are an absolutely brilliant"

On my older PCs you can still feel the sparkly. I think they're wonderful. The only issue I have is running into them from the sides (naturally).

BadAim 11-08-2010 12:12 PM

Those screenies sure bring back memories. I remember how bloody hard it was to bring down am IL2 with that 109F-2, but how rewarding in the end. I'm just as stoked to try SOW for the first time as I was IL2, and I still remember that far from being disappointed, it was actually better than I thought it would be (and my expectations were high!)

Oleg Maddox 11-08-2010 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hecke (Post 196319)
lots of ingame footage.

http://www.sukhoi.ru/forum/showpost....&postcount=839


Quite a few heavy bugs.
For example the crash of two planes. The hurri goes through the bomber as if it was air and the propeller still works.

Fortunately, Oleg still has a lot of time to fix that stuff.

There at exhibition were set of Easy settings. There is option - no collision. Maybe we will remove it.

Yes there are still many bugs in beta. I told it myself several times.

zapatista 11-08-2010 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by philip.ed (Post 196272)
Shall I remove all my posts? I'm happy to.


can you cut out your perpetual meaningless oftopic banter ?

the purpose of threads like this is to exchange meaningfull information

Oleg Maddox 11-08-2010 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freycinet (Post 196227)
Luffe, the "pancake" forests you disparage were an absolutely brilliant programming solution to a problem that, up till Il-2, hadn't been solved by any flight sim: how to show a forest cover of large extension. Oleg solved this with four layers of semi-transparent textures that gave an exceptionally good illusion of a forest of 3D trees from just a few hundred meters up.

I think you probably weren't around playing flight sims in 2001 when Il-2 came out, but the graphics blew everything else out of the water back then. And the particular solution for forests is still a very clever one.

You have to know something about programming and system resources to understand why flight sims look the way they do. A handful of teenage kids in this forum haven't got a clue, but most have an idea...

Correct.
And many copied this technology. Some even for clouds :).

winny 11-08-2010 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oleg Maddox (Post 196449)
There at exhibition were set of Easy settings. There is option - no collision. Maybe we will remove it.

Yes there are still many bugs in beta. I told it myself several times.

I think it looks great. Hope you got lots of good/usefull feedback from the show.

Dano 11-08-2010 12:44 PM

Hope you had a good sleep Oleg :)

BoB looks like it is going to be immense!

zapatista 11-08-2010 12:48 PM

thanks to the previous posters who posted video links and pictures from the russian presentation, i just read the whole thread to catch up on the news and it looks great !!

Feathered_IV 11-08-2010 12:49 PM

I was looking at the AI aircrew to see if they actually do their jobs in SoW. I really hope navigators will navigate, and bomb aimers will open the bomb doors and "left-left, right" over the target etc. In the Il-2 series the crews don't do much except swing a gun. Observers don't observe and most crew are just decoration. Has anyone seen any signs of more realistic AI crews in the videos?

Oleg Maddox 11-08-2010 12:57 PM

Bob prsentation at Igromir
 
If all will be Ok and I will have a time to prepare English version of that first presentation of video based on beta version, then you will get it to look this Friday.

Repeat, if everything will go Ok with the other work.

julien673 11-08-2010 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oleg Maddox (Post 196460)
If all will be Ok and I will have a time to prepare Eglish version of that first presentation of video based on beta version, then you will get it to look this Friday.

Repeat, if everything will go Ok with the other work.

:grin::grin:

Avimimus 11-08-2010 01:03 PM

Ooh, Good news!

Oleg - be careful - we can't have you dying of exhaustion or some of the fans dying from excitement!

JG52Uther 11-08-2010 01:10 PM

Thanks Oleg!

BadAim 11-08-2010 01:35 PM

Thanks Oleg, you ROXXORS!

Qpassa 11-08-2010 02:08 PM

I expect more 4.10 than any new of bob ( which I think it will be released in 2011 :( )

Meusli 11-08-2010 02:55 PM

Cheers Oleg, hope you can pull it off for us.

Freycinet 11-08-2010 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oleg Maddox (Post 196460)
If all will be Ok and I will have a time to prepare English version of that first presentation of video based on beta version, then you will get it to look this Friday.

Repeat, if everything will go Ok with the other work.

Доброе утро Oleg, hope you slept well :)

Looking forward to the presentation, but don't worry if you won't have time to do it for next week, we can wait "two weeks, be sure"... :)

Asheshouse 11-08-2010 03:42 PM

Pretty impressive but maybe lacks industrial scenery like dockside cranes, warehouses, gas holders, industrial chimneys etc. Also the East End houses should consist of more back to back terraces instead of semi-detached houses. --- I'm not complaining. Just an observation. I would like to see a shot of one of the major train stations, like Clapham Junction or London Bridge Stn. Note: Tower Bridge has not popped into view yet? Maybe its just outside the view limits?
http://users.teledisnet.be/web/mfe39146/Bt2.jpg

philip.ed 11-08-2010 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zapatista (Post 196451)
can you cut out your perpetual meaningless oftopic banter ?

the purpose of threads like this is to exchange meaningfull information

yes, I was only referring to this topic; it wasn't a sarcastic comment. ;)
And note that I am not the only one who has gone O/T/


Anyway let's leave it.
Oleg, I hope you've had a good rest from the show. I can't wait to see the full trailer in English whenever you are well enough and have the time, to work on it ;)

caprera 11-08-2010 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oleg Maddox (Post 196460)
If all will be Ok and I will have a time to prepare English version of that first presentation of video based on beta version, then you will get it to look this Friday.

Repeat, if everything will go Ok with the other work.

Last thing we want is to take away time from SoW project just to see a different screenshot ;)

Foo'bar 11-08-2010 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by major_setback (Post 196335)
Wake up Foo'bar!!!!
:-)

Thanks, thanks, thanks for posting.

Sorry for delay, no network today :( Thanks for waking me up, hehe :D
http://fooblog.mexxoft.com/category/...e/screenshots/

Richie 11-08-2010 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asheshouse (Post 196491)
Pretty impressive but maybe lacks industrial scenery like dockside cranes, warehouses, gas holders, industrial chimneys etc. Also the East End houses should consist of more back to back terraces instead of semi-detached houses. --- I'm not complaining. Just an observation. I would like to see a shot of one of the major train stations, like Clapham Junction or London Bridge Stn. Note: Tower Bridge has not popped into view yet? Maybe its just outside the view limits?
http://users.teledisnet.be/web/mfe39146/Bt2.jpg

Did you watch any of the videos because the screens don't do the videos justice

KG26_Alpha 11-08-2010 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asheshouse (Post 196491)
Pretty impressive but maybe lacks industrial scenery like dockside cranes, warehouses, gas holders, industrial chimneys etc. Also the East End houses should consist of more back to back terraces instead of semi-detached houses. --- I'm not complaining. Just an observation. I would like to see a shot of one of the major train stations, like Clapham Junction or London Bridge Stn. Note: Tower Bridge has not popped into view yet? Maybe its just outside the view limits?
http://users.teledisnet.be/web/mfe39146/Bt2.jpg

That's the West End of London

It was totally different from the East End.

Richie 11-08-2010 04:25 PM

I think my favorite is when that Ju-88 pilot is pulling out of the dive. You can just hear him grunting while he's pulling back on the controls with his chin in his chest


http://rutube.ru/tracks/3743507.html...bc000730696f75

Sven 11-08-2010 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richie (Post 196508)
I think my favorite is when that Ju-88 pilot is pulling out of the dive. You can just hear him grunting while he's pulling back on the controls with his chin in his chest


http://rutube.ru/tracks/3743507.html...bc000730696f75


hahhaa, I dont believe that was the pilot as there was no sound, the person who flew it made some that weird noise:grin:

nonetheless, the Ju-88 looks awesome , all those little details (drool), just beautiful!

furbs 11-08-2010 05:43 PM

seeing all these vids has been just great! but couldnt the people trying out SOW shoot? not seen one clean fighter vs fighter kill.

philip.ed 11-08-2010 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by furbs (Post 196527)
seeing all these vids has been just great! but couldnt the people trying out SOW shoot? not seen one clean fighter vs fighter kill.

I agree (although I suppose flying whilst holding a camera in one hand can be quite hard :P )
Also, I personally could not test the sim without (first) firing the guns, flying down to ground-level, shooting the ground, shooting he water, looking for some objects to strafe, testing out the damage model, etc :D Perhaps this is a reflection on how long these people had already been playing the sim for?

But if there were bombers about, I'd have to have a go at shooting them up, too. Have any videos been posted showing different smoke-variations? I haven't seen any film of fuel or glycol leaks yet.
Still, what's been posted has been awesome. I never thought so many videos would be posted.

Out of curiosity, can anyone comment on oil-leaks? I have seen a few videos shown oil on the windscreen, and I had rather hoped one would see it spray on. I know it may sound like a complicated process, but even if the animation was on a loop, it could still look really cool.

Freycinet 11-08-2010 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oleg Maddox (Post 196449)
Yes there are still many bugs in beta. I told it myself several times.

Good luck with your BoB (Battle of Bugs...) :)

philip.ed 11-08-2010 06:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freycinet (Post 196534)
Good luck with your BoB (Battle of Bugs...) :)

:D

Compared to other sims, SoW looks amazing considering it is in, what, BETA stage? I've played and seen games that are crawling with bugs at this stage, or even later (like the latest MoH game)

Good luck Oleg. If you're audience at the Moscow event were happy with the game, and found the gameplay as expected (ie, extremely good) then that really is a positive note to take into account.

Stranzki 11-08-2010 07:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by philip.ed (Post 196535)
:D

Compared to other sims, SoW looks amazing considering it is in, what, BETA stage? I've played and seen games that are crawling with bugs at this stage, or even later (like the latest MoH game)

Good luck Oleg. If you're audience at the Moscow event were happy with the game, and found the gameplay as expected (ie, extremely good) then that really is a positive note to take into account.

please delete, misreaded it

Hecke 11-08-2010 07:32 PM

http://translate.google.de/translate...ostcount%3D924

Looks like bad news to me. And I was already making party because somebody stated they were 3D. :(

Oleg, can you please clarify that :confused:

kendo65 11-08-2010 07:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hecke (Post 196549)
http://translate.google.de/translate...ostcount%3D924

Looks like bad news to me. And I was already making party because somebody stated they were 3D. :(

Oleg, can you please clarify that :confused:

That's terrible!!

What's it mean?

sorry - not really enough evidence there to convict in a court of law - someone who didn't see anything! rofl ;)

swiss 11-08-2010 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by philip.ed (Post 196535)
Good luck Oleg. If you're audience at the Moscow event were happy with the game, and found the gameplay as expected (ie, extremely good) then that really is a positive note to take into account.

Well, I guess most ppl think flight sims are boring as hell.
It's a niche, so out of 10 visitors, one may be seriously into sims.

You see, the feedback at a booth is not necessarily worth too much - unless it's a booth where you can be sure your target audience is present.

;)

swiss 11-08-2010 07:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hecke (Post 196549)
http://translate.google.de/translate...ostcount%3D924

Looks like bad news to me. And I was already making party because somebody stated they were 3D. :(

Oleg, can you please clarify that :confused:

Why are those craters so freaking important to you?

It's flight sim, you fly over them - remember?

Sven 11-08-2010 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by swiss (Post 196554)
Why are those craters so freaking important to you?

It's flight sim, you fly over them - remember?

then bombing a runway would be usefull..

The Kraken 11-08-2010 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sven (Post 196555)
then bombing a runway would be usefull..

We already know there will be craters and physical interaction with them; this is purely about the visual representation. And I don't think more than one person in the world cares if they're not made out of polygons as long as they look and work fine.

Hecke 11-08-2010 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by swiss (Post 196554)
Why are those craters so freaking important to you?

It's flight sim, you fly over them - remember?

So we don't need land, we fly over it anyway, right?


Quote:

Originally Posted by Sven (Post 196555)
then bombing a runway would be usefull..

You shouldn't have given him that tip. Now he has nothing to brood over.;)


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