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-   -   Where are the new maps? (http://forum.fulqrumpublishing.com/showthread.php?t=40449)

IceFire 07-27-2013 03:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pursuivant (Post 507352)
I find that hard to believe, since there are so many excellent mapmakers on SAS and literally dozens of completed modded maps.

While I don't want to start an argument or waste TD members time, I'd be interested in their analysis of why certain modded maps don't make the grade. If nothing else, it would be instructive to new mapmakers as to what they need to do.

I'm also wondering if TD isn't being a bit sensitive over what constitutes copyright. At least in the U.S., you can claim that it is an original work of art if you modify a someone else's work in a significant fashion. For example, taking a copyrighted Google Earth image, cropping it, editing it to make it consistent with 1940s era terrain and otherwise manipulating the image in a photo editing program ought to be good enough to make it an "original work of art."

Part of it might be that none of those map makers have ever bothered to see if they might get their stuff in an official patch. Or how much work it would be to get one ready... perhaps a couple of quick changes and it's all good to go.

I think the copyright issue point has already been made but to reiterate.. an overabundance of caution is extremely important here.

Lagarto 07-27-2013 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IceFire (Post 507373)
Part of it might be that none of those map makers have ever bothered to see if they might get their stuff in an official patch.

Finally someone has said that out loud. Of course they don't care. Why would they? For all I can see, there's no thrill out there in being included in anything 'official' :)

IceFire 07-27-2013 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lagarto (Post 507383)
Finally someone has said that out loud. Of course they don't care. Why would they? For all I can see, there's no thrill out there in being included in anything 'official' :)

Or they haven't considered it is my point as well.

There are a variety of reasons why... I'm hoping someone who maybe connects with these guys more regularly might point them in the direction.

Lagarto 07-27-2013 04:42 PM

Actually, I don't see much point in dragging maps that had been released as mods into DT's patches. What for? I'd rather see DT include new stuff in their patches, like the New Guinea map I had mentioned before.
If you want mod maps, you can install HSFX, for example, and simply enjoy them. Then you can add a dozen or so other maps (or re-textures of older ones) not originally included in a given mod pack of your choice. It's easy. Then you can use unlocked FMB to customize your favorite maps, re-populate them with objects and/or re-texture them. It's fun. Much more than compiling wish lists, pleading,arguing and waiting. Be free. Have fun. It's a game :)

BadAim 07-28-2013 12:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by horseback (Post 507139)
Speaking of maps, how about a method of 'jumping' from one map to another in a single mission format? If you're taking off from the Kuban to patrol over Crimea for instance, from 'England' to Normandy, or from 'Rabaul' to Guadalcanal it would be quite useful. Some way of linking the maps together (and they wouldn't have to be adjacent to each other) with way of assigning fuel burned + altitude gained/lost and time gone on the cockpit clock in a single mission would be very cool.

cheers

horseback

That is a great idea, though I'm not sure that there are a lot of maps that would be usable in that way in the stock game. I wonder how difficult a feature like that would be to retrofit into the game? I doubt it would be a cakewalk.

Pursuivant 07-29-2013 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadAim (Post 507413)
That is a great idea, though I'm not sure that there are a lot of maps that would be usable in that way in the stock game. I wonder how difficult a feature like that would be to retrofit into the game? I doubt it would be a cakewalk.

Maps that just cover a limited area and don't "scroll" as you fly are the trade-off you make for having actual populated towns, trees and woods. It worked well when IL2 was a low-altitude, tactical "mud moving" sim, not so well now that there are player flyable strategic bombers planes.

I think that it would be a lot of work to allow jumps to new maps, especially if you have missions where planes are scattered across two or more maps. Online it would be a nightmare, especially if people on different maps couldn't interact with each other. Also, how do you handle sighting across two different maps? And, what happens when you have people fighting at the conjunction of four different maps!

About the only way it could possibly work is to rework the existing maps in the game so that they are all standardized "tiles" designed to allow smooth transition from one map to the next. Then, you'd have to rework the game engine so that it could keep track of everything happening on or above each tile. For online, you'd need to make it so that the server could handle dozens of combats over each tile!

I think it could be done with the computer power available these days, but it would be a whole new sim. I sure don't think that it would be fair to ask TD to do that.

CzechTexan 07-30-2013 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pursuivant (Post 507352)
I find that hard to believe, since there are so many excellent mapmakers on SAS and literally dozens of completed modded maps.

While I don't want to start an argument or waste TD members time, I'd be interested in their analysis of why certain modded maps don't make the grade. If nothing else, it would be instructive to new mapmakers as to what they need to do.

I'm also wondering if TD isn't being a bit sensitive over what constitutes copyright. At least in the U.S., you can claim that it is an original work of art if you modify a someone else's work in a significant fashion. For example, taking a copyrighted Google Earth image, cropping it, editing it to make it consistent with 1940s era terrain and otherwise manipulating the image in a photo editing program ought to be good enough to make it an "original work of art."

I have a WIP map of the Kweilin-Changsha region of China on SAS.
TD has strict requirements for maps and that's why it's harder to do them for TD. Example is all rivers at zero altitude is very difficult to do in mountainous maps where elevation is significant from one side of the map to the other.

Also, not getting textures from Google earth (or other places) puts a damper on map building for TD.... how else can good decent real-life looking textures be made??

Pursuivant 07-30-2013 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CzechTexan (Post 507586)
Example is all rivers at zero altitude is very difficult to do in mountainous maps where elevation is significant from one side of the map to the other.

That's also just WRONG! Rivers flow downhill for a reason! Of course, TD does say that there can be exceptions for tarns and the like, so it makes sense that a river flowing through the mountains could be above zero altitude.

Is there any particular reason why rivers all have to be at zero altitude?

Quote:

Originally Posted by CzechTexan (Post 507586)
Also, not getting textures from Google earth (or other places) puts a damper on map building for TD.... how else can good decent real-life looking textures be made??

Satellite and aerial pictures released by various governments are inherently copyright free. They're just not as readily available as Google Earth images.

And, as I said in my earlier thread, arguably cropping, tiling, retinting and photoshopping an existing photograph turns it into an original work of art.

MicroWave 07-30-2013 07:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pursuivant (Post 507591)
That's also just WRONG! Rivers flow downhill for a reason! Of course, TD does say that there can be exceptions for tarns and the like, so it makes sense that a river flowing through the mountains could be above zero altitude.

Is there any particular reason why rivers all have to be at zero altitude?
...

The game engine renders properly only water at zero altitude.
Even on high altitude lakes you can see that the shadows are wrong (for example Slovakia).

Here is something for you all to do during the summer. Make a list of best MOD maps and suggest them here. Imagine that only top 2 on the list will make it into official patch. So argue among yourselves why your favorite ones should be on top. Bear in mind that they should satisfy conditions posted in this thread before. Of course, some deviations are possible (I don't see a reason for winter version of objects on Pacific maps).

Fenrir 07-30-2013 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MicroWave (Post 507592)
The game engine renders properly only water at zero altitude.
Even on high altitude lakes you can see that the shadows are wrong (for example Slovakia).

Here is something for you all to do during the summer. Make a list of best MOD maps and suggest them here. Imagine that only top 2 on the list will make it into official patch. So argue among yourselves why your favorite ones should be on top. Bear in mind that they should satisfy conditions posted in this thread before. Of course, some deviations are possible (I don't see a reason for winter version of objects on Pacific maps).

Ok Caspar.

Top of my List would be Maraz Central Med Map - the scope for Malta and North African theatre action from 1940 all the way to 1943 is too good an opportunity to miss; where else are we gonna use that lovely MkIII Wimpey? ;)

Second place would be a Cross Channel map. and I'm thinking GilB57s Western Front Map would be the most excellent choice - scope for the heavy bomber boys and fills a gap between the Normandy maps (D-Day) and NW Europe - lets face it, the stock Ardennes map, whilst a useful filler over the years is an undersized and ageing entity; the 1:1 scale of GilB57s lovely map really puts it in the shade.

Also would like a winter version of the Norway map; given the majority of anti-shipping action took part during the autumn and winter of 1944-45 it seems a shame we don't have the opportunity to skim between snow capped Nordic peaks as we dodge the Kreigsmarine flak gunners!


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