exactly right !

the fatigue factor people have been asking for in il2 is not relevant in a normal level flight that might last 1 or 2 hrs, where all you do is climb to altitude, set your trim etc.. and then land after an hr or so when not having seen any action or had dogfights with enemy planes.

but once the hard maneuvering starts, fatigue is a very important factor and all historical accounts indicate this. that is the part that has to be modeled in il2/BoB.

one problem will be how to best represent this in il2/BoB. in real life you would "feel" the fatigue and dont need to look at any gauges. you would also know how much energy you had left for a few more hard maneuvers, or if you wanted to save your energy for a little while and try and recover for a few minutes. it would not be adequate in il2/BoB to just have your pilot become less responsive whithout some visible clue, because it has to simulate the same information that a real pilot had by "feeling" his energy level and fatigue state.

That was really clear zapatista ...what is important here, are visual clues for us to recognise the fatigue. Maybe something like visuals when partially wounded, or slowness of turning head time when checking six etc?

Personally I am rather dubious as to how "fatique" is going to be modeled...

I can tell you from PERSONAL experience of flying REAL combat aircraft (albeit in jets... F-111, F-4G/E, and F-16 )AND in combat, and having the WONDERFUL opportunity to fly several WWII A/C... compliments of the CAF (Confederate Air Force/ Commemorative Air Force)... pilot fatique is VERY different for each person... a pilot in very good physical shape and using proper techniques can sustain high G maneuvers and higher G's longer, and better than somebody that is not as conditioned or experienced in proper techniques... I also can attest that even if you ARE bone tired, that when bogies are sighted... that fatique goes away VERY FAST and is indeed replaced with serious adrenaline!!! BUT... after the engagements are over and you make it back to base... you almost have to be lifted out of the cockpit you are so beat. Especially if it is not the only sortie you flew that day!!! It is not typically, until AFTER you are safe from the engagments that the fatigue sets in... and in MANY cases the shakes!!! :oops:

So how is this going to be modeled properly... ESPECIALLY since they flew several sorties a day??? I am curious but a bit apprehensive as to see how this will be done!!

I a DF server you are the HUNTER, disengaging at will flying in a faster plane.
In mission, instead the things are different:
Think to a flight of 4 I16 who have to protect a convoy: 4 109 are BnZing you but you can't leave the sector or focus on the fighters, you have to scan the sky for the bombers until they arrive.

Here, in-game, there is only mental fatigue (defending yourself, not losing SA) but the muscle fatigue isn't simulated.. a pair of tight turns (usually did by turn fighters like I16, Yak, La, Zero and Spits to evade form BnZ attacks) should really tire the pilot.

Of course, even 109' pilots but in a faster plane they can always extend.

I tried..............doesn't work with Spitfire on your 6 on short winter map...........I had to stay and fight or be strafed.
Spitfire followed me at full throttle all the way to my home base of course.

Easy kill: fire some shots passing under your mates and you'll see them diving down for the kill.

Trying to chase an Fw190 in a Spit (not 25lbs) is sign of noobness IMO. You are a easy target for DnB (who is the way you have to fly 190s). Infact these noobs don't even check their six... In that case Spits are really a easy kill... Tempests and P51s scare me more.

Maybe this feature is AI only? :twisted: :twisted:

presuming things you said are true about your personal flight experience in those aircraft (dont mean to be rude, but we had the odd fake guy show up, like the one whom wanted everybody to call him colonel blabla whatever it was), and i hope you are the real deal, then let us consider that....

1) the experience in the modern aircraft you refer to all relates to fly by wire modern jet aircraft that are designed to be control with the light touch of one hand, and have with sticks that are MUCH easier to control than those on an old ww2 prop plane, AND in those modern jets you barely use the rudder pedals in normal flight or combat (rudder is mostly used during landing and takeoff from what i hear).

most "combat" in those jets you mention is with "over the horizon" weapon systems to, so it is not usually in very close with sustained air combat maneuvres in close, like it was in ww2.

so compared to ww2 and the physical exhaustion of having to move and stir a stick which has a lot of resistance with both arms, while stomping on the rudder pedals for hard maneuvering while the enemy is about 200 meters away from you is very different. that experience is very similar to having to continuesly pump weights at the gym with both arms and legs at the same time, and even with sutained adrenaline the fatigue factor rapidly sets in. this is something you can measure with physiological testing, and is very differnet from mental fatigue induced by mental concentration and stress.

2) sustaining G maneuvres is a little different. some people were better at it then others, and the correct training usually mattered, they also used various tricks w scarfs and contracting muscles to delay the blackout and redout effect. but that phenomena has a different threshold, and is induced by slightly different actions (for ex simply the tightness of a turn etc..).


i think there is no need for either of those problems to be modeled differently for axis/allied, or young or old pilots, or tall or short, or trained or untrained, or fit or unfit. that would complicate matters beyond what oleg can do right now.

what we do need however is a way to represent physical fatigue, because some of the behaviour you see online is totally unrealistic (as previous posters in this same thread have illustrated very clearly)

Pit

Yes 100 % agree.. But here the eternal dilemna is how to make understand this to the simmers that never experienced it only on books and in games... i dunno they seems to know better anyway.. and love to argue.. and i'm the wrong person to explain it well. maybe EcoDragon would explain it a lightway better than me .. he master the art of writing ;) .
But yes each time after flight i had to get back home on my Motorcycle and boy i that was hard..

To understand it's like racing a fast good race on Shifter kart or motorcycle the fatigue will hit you has soon you get off the pit or bike.. real hard..

The problem i see online many times is a problem of design .. Oleg has to make a better design FM planes and surounding world physics you will see if you can move the FW190 and others ( a pure example ) like an paper weight extra 300.. :)