Foresight? Independence was fought because of self interest as they didn't want to pay tax (damn'd right I say) and most European countries decided to help them out.

Bash the UK if you want, but I think anyone in the USA that wants to do that should be prepared for the USA to be bashed in return. That gets away from the purpose of this thread, which is for Stern to be self righteous and everyone else to take shots at him whether rightly or wrongly.

As for gun haters, I'm not sure that anyone here hates guns. They hate what they do, but who wouldn't. There is also a fundamental difference in philosophies between the UK and other countries, including the UK, and that is all.

You really think individual US citizens are empowered?

How?

As I read it the right to bear arms is that so you can help defend the nation, not yourself.

.
First I didn't call you petty, the point was petty.
Second, if you think that's a petty difference, you don't get the whole point of my argument (that though I had figured out long ago..).

yes, but they're the ones with the stick. Are you gonna wave your voting card when they decide for you once again?

I really can't, but people like you make this place less pleasant than what it actually is. Mine was a dickish answer to a dickish statement.

agreed, but just for the sake of science, to see how easy it is to get one.

I can't think of a good reason to snort cocaine or smoke weed, still, other people enjoy doing it.

instead of pondering the opinion of a foreigner, who might see things from a different perspective, all you can do is taking it personally like I'm talking to you, relax.


I haven't asked for less tough laws, just for laws that make sense. With stricter (or shall I say, more effective) gun laws and semiauto and pistols we all win.

sure, but what are they doing to stop or reduce it? Nothing.. let me think why, maybe cos too many people like it, or maybe cos the Government gets a lot of revenue off the selling of alcohol and tobacco..
Everything has a dangerous potential, even your kitchen knives, your car.. shall we forbid everything that is potentially dangerous?


wrong again.
no, you're looking at the shallow end me thinks. It's beyond that, but if you're happy to think otherwise..

WONG! This is my major :) Let me set you straight. That is exactly its intent - to defend yourself. Since you play IL-2 Cliffs of Dover (of I assume you do) it should be pretty easy for you to answer - who in history during this period of time this game is set - was a tyrant that was elected to office by a free society?

The constitution / bill of rights is a charter if negative liberties aimed squarely at the government with maximum freedom to the individual - written in such a way as to say what the government will NOT do for you. NOT what it will do for you.

The second amendment is not only to defend the nation from foreign aggression. But domestic and the government from becoming tyrannical.

The founders specifically meant that sometimes when the people don't get their way at the ballot box, there has to be another method to make change.

Thus the second amendment remedy was born.

This is from the federalist papers.

James Madison wrote "As civil rulers, not having their duty to the people duly before them, may attempt to tyrannize, and as the military forces which must be occasionally raised to defend our country, might pervert their power to the injury of their fellow-citizens, the people are confirmed by the next article in their right to keep and bear their private arms."

And you call me a delusional bigot? You're priceless.

I'm still talking facts here man, get your facts right then tell me about yours..

Are we arguing about the way we're arguing here? You know exactly what I meant when I said handgun, you're just deflecting the argument again.

No, I just don't vote, they're all the same. I just get on with my life. I can't think of anything that I've wanted to do in my entire life that the govenrment stopped me from doing. They are so far removed from rel life that it's poinltess bothering with them.

People like me? WTF? Who do you think you are?

Jeez, we're onto drugs now are we? Why? What are you going on about?
G U N S. Remember?

Wher have I resorted to calling you ignorant, dickish, a sheep, questioned your intelligence? I haven't. I've stuck to my side of the argument, you meanwhile go from one random analogy to another. I'm not taking this personally AT ALL. You're the one getting personal. You're the one slagging off my country of birth, have I mentioned Italy? Not once.

Except me? I don't want handguns to be legal in the UK. Or Semi Automatics.



They put the price up.

No, forbiding potentially dangerous things would be stupid, I'm talking about lethal wepons, expilcitly - firearms - they are not the same thing - Another smokescreen.


Stop telling me how I'm thinking, I am a grown up, I can make my own mind up about things. I'll say it again - I don't think a hobby is a good enough reason to lobby for lifting the current bans. Time may well change this opinion, If in the future there becomes a real need for gun ownership, you know, when the oil runs out, or food, and you really would need to protect yourself then, absolutley, get me a gun. But not now, I like having an unarmed (in the main) police force, they aren't as cocky. You arm the population and the poilce arm themselves too and so do more of the criminals. Less than 40 people were killed by guns in the UK last year, that's pretty good for a nation of drunken benifit claimers. I want it to be the hardest thing you can apply for a licence for. Truth is the Brits like a good old fashioned drunken punch up more than a pussies with guns shootout. (I don't mean people with guns are pussies, I mean a pussy with a gun, someone you know you'd beat to a pulp if he wasn't armed)

Some citizens here are empowered. I am one of them.
How?
I take responsibility. When confronted with any type of bad folks who demonstrate a desire to steal, destroy or threaten my family, neighbors, myself or our property. I have the ability to take the appropriate action. I don't have to wait hours for the police to apologize and take a report. The really neat responsible part of this? It's legal here.

Now for that "nation, not yourself" part....when, I read that...I giggled.
At you.
Try this on for size?
If you can't defend yourself first, how can you defend your nation?

Sternjaeger II I wouldn't put to much more energy into this, there isn't much more you can say to convince people who have their minds made up. I'm all for the next guy not having a gun. Just don't try to take mine because you know us paranoid type.

You take responsibility? I presume you have a cape to twirl whilst you dish out punishment in your vigilante alter ego?

I presume that you know that the "right to bear arms" has different interpretations, and that it was formulated in the late 18th century? By people who had to support the idea of armed insurrection as that is what they had just done?

I don't have to defend my nation as my government does that on my behalf, and I trust them to do so. Owning a gun wouldn't help me defuse an IED in Afghanistan, or stop a terrorist attack. How do you defend your nation by owning a gun? Owning a gun doesn't empower you to do anything at all; that's what the rule of law does.

It really doesn't bother me that the USA allows the right to bear arms. It's your country and your politicians and if you vote for them and they let you have what you want then that's fine. If you disagree with your government by all means form a militia and march on Washington. It'll make great TV whilst it lasts.

However, don't criticise another country's peoples and laws just because you do not agree with them. If you're not a citizen then it's really none of your business. That goes for the whole guns are great/bad argument.

Giggle away.