The entire project is struggling right now. This is why they want the uninformed to give them money for an unfinished product. We all know what happens when you do that. The next trick is to remove the word beta and continue to sell in a desperate attempt to save it.

I mean you can tell a lot of corners were cut to rush this beta out.

To clarify: you want to imply Eagle Dynamics is in financial trouble? Have you got any insight to that? Would be a shame, 'though.

No, I haven't got further than shooting up the friendly a/c on the ground in the 'free flight' mission. It's partly my own fault because I insist on doing things as full real as possible and of course the A-10 is complicated, but it's the look of the world outside that puts me off going further.

Lifeless water, unconvincing sky, sun, clouds. The mountains in the distance look like a kid's drawing.

But that's just me, I wouldn't dream of criticizing the people who enjoy DCS, because the aircraft's functions and feel are superb.

It's just not my 'cup of tea'. ;)

We will have to see how the outside world changes with the EDGE graphics engine. Although I think your description of their terrain right now is just a little harsh, but everyone has a right to their opinion, and in fairness the terrain system is old, of course that is why they are updating it I am sure. :)

Not only that. It's beta says it right there on the label. And they are asking money for it. A lot for what you get. You don't need to be a bean counter to understand the counter intuitive nature of this. It's a no win situation. If you haven't already learned by now that a fool and his money soon part ways you wont ever learn.

But it's an opinion shared by vast majority of the DCS community.

What do you mean they are updating it "I'm sure"? Give me some money. PM me for my paypal details and you will get something back I promise. A receipt and nothing more.

That's the feeling you get with this. Period

Honestly...I have never seen anything that looks so much like a quarter vending machine video game at a convenience store than this. Drop another quarter in and play while you wait for your school bus little boy. That's how you feel with this.

"I'm sure" means they are updating it because they know their current graphics engine is getting long in the tooth...

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?...2&postcount=12

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?...6&postcount=19

They did the same thing with the release of A10..

And that worked out well. I think DCS is smart to do this..

DCS realizes how many different combinations of PC hardware and software are out there, and how unrealistic it is to think you can account for them all. (something 1C is learning now with CoD, the hard way)

So to deal with this DCS releases a beta to get feedback on these issues.

NO ONE AT DCS IS HOLDING A GUN TO ANYONES HEAD!

If you want to be part of the dev, than buy it and be part of it, if you don't, than don't.

It's that simple!

Fixed that for ya

Well do your part and spend your money on it. Go buy 2 copies.

And when you are done move out of the way there is a another little boy patiently waiting behind you with his fudgesicle and a hand full of coin waiting to play.

So what is the difference in releasing a product as a paid beta or a year after "final" release going back to alpha because you probably didnt test it enough to begin with. Not sure what is so flawed in them releasing the P-51 like this??

No one is forcing anyone to buy P-51 at this point, I didnt pre-purchase A-10 when it was in this state, I waited for release.

That's what I am saying. If you want to buy another beta go for it. More power to you. Did you not learn anything about this experience already??

Err, What?

Apples to Oranges...

P-51 hasnt been out for a year and just now its going to beta... so when a girl cheated on you, you swore off all other girls?

Yes I will lighten up but the product is still what it is. It looks and sounds awful and it is my post and my opinion but a lot and I mean AAAALLLLLOOOOOOOOT think the same thing.

LOL!

Maybe your onto something there? JK!

Anyway, why is it these self imposed whinny nay-sayers always think they speak for everyone?

As noted

DSC is not holding a gun to your head to dl and buy the beta P51
1C is not holding a gun to your head to dl the alpha patch for CoD

If you want to be part of the 'solution' than do so, if you don't than don't

But they shouldn't fool themselfs into thinking they speak for everyone!

Now granted, when I was a kid with a paper route, $50 was a lot of money. So if that was my situation today, I would not be getting involved with the DCS P51 beta.

Not because I didn't want to!

But because I can't afford it.

But these days, I spend more $ on gas driving to work one day a week than what these games cost. That is to say the price of the game is the least of my concerns!

I personably love flight sims of all types, thus I don't mind 'supporting' their efforts!

I see it more of a donation than an investment!

On that note, anyone who's finances are such that they have to sit down and include their 'game costs' into their monthly budget such that the failure of the game will negatively impact their lives (kids don't get new shoes) should seriously think about finding another, cheaper, hobby.

Did you really? Did you deliver on your bike?

He did, but it was a beta version of his bike so he only had rims no tires :)

I wonder if he had a basket on it to. :D

There are lots of things, which need to be changed in DCS, but it is not that bad. At least not when compared to old IL2.

Il2 gives you more of a depth than DCS does..look at those mountains

:grin:

Nice comparison! But I was thinking more along the lines of the later Slovakia and similar maps in IL2 1946 than a direct comparison of the actual area modelled in the original IL2.

Great shots though!

Some mountains are 100-200m too high in IL2 picture.

Oh ok.. :rolleyes: I thought you were on about looks

I never played it the old sim. Wish I had. How about Cliff of Dover? How does the landscape look against the new IL-2?

COD still wins hand down, but we will have to wait until for the finished update.

It is hard to compare because Normandy and Kuban+Georgia have very different landscapes. The former is flat mostly and features lots of patches of various fields, while the last one is mountainous and incredibly cluttered with trees and bushes. In anyway, CoD engine seems more advanced, and has more features for better landscape lightning and details, so Kuban for Cod would probably look better.

P.S: Water is always rendered like it is at sea level in DCS, so if you are flying in mountains and look at lake there, you may feel like someone is doing "F" with your mind. :)

The LockOn engine, like IL-2, was way ahead of its time and is just now starting to show it age..

You can allways pick 'one' aspect of a sim to make it look good or bad realitive to another.. To do an honest comp one would have to tally up all the features vs features.. But since we are talking about the ground modeling, I think the current DCS stuff falls somewere inbetween IL-2 and CoD.

DCS scenery is designed to keep the resources down, please take into consideration the square area size of the scenery represented in both cases. il2 scenery bogs your system down to level that makes flying (whats the opposite of fluid). DCS terrain lets you go on and on never questioning the frame resources from one area to the next. yes CLOD is more advanced and substancially more appealing. but has not proved its worth as of yet imo.

Cliffs of Dover should have taken a page from DCS I guess. Skimp on the details to save on resources.

Actually I prefer the look and feel of the DCS engine. Not the details - here CloD wins hands down, but although CloD looks very beautiful, it has a cartoonish touch to it. And I don't like CloD's occasionally missing houses at the edge of a village and the strange LOD (square) when high up.

I think DCS's next gen ground engine will be a major step forward, based on the screenshots of the Nevada terrain.

i think like IL2 the next engine will obviously tax our systems even more and probally like il2 be heavily dependant on latest graphics technology. cant wait. just waiting to order a 670....

To be honest on second look, it looks fake, there is no shadow under that 109, and really it kinda looks out of place lighting wise, but I could be wrong...

At high altitude I think both look great and have their pros and cons.. The DCS engine starts to show it's age the lower you go.

Which is necessary what with the direction of CoD being more than just a flight simulator

I can't put my finger on it.. but I agree.. Something about it looks cartoonish.. I think it has to do with the scaling.. For example, in IL-2, when flying around, did you ever ask yourself.. Why can I see more airfilelds than farms? CoD kind of has that fake look to it too..

Only time will tell.. They said the same thing about CoD a few years ago! ;)

Thats the thing right, I mean it scares me to see some of those screenshots... will we all need new computers? :)

Count on it! ;)

Which is understandable.. When a game company puts in a effort to make a new game engine.. They are not targeting the current crop of video cards.. They are looking a few years down the road at hardware that does not even exist yet.. Thus once it is released it is 'expected' that only the current top of the line cards will even stand a chance of running at full settings at a decent but low fps.. But, a couple of years down the road, your average PC will be able to handled the graphics, and a few more years a low end PC will be able to handle the graphics

This is exactally what we 'had' with IL-2 and exactally what we 'have' with CoD

So, I fully expect that we will need new vid cards as a min upon release of a new game engine if not a whole new PC

I get that, you get that.... the wife... not so much lol.

LOL.. Chicks Maaan.. Chicks!

At least it's enjoyable, and working....

Enjoyable is realitive..

As for working..

Wellll..

Like the current CoD alpha patch.. The current DCS P51 has some aspects disabled..

Most notably for me is the Force Feedback is disabled..

Hard as hell to fly with a wet noodel FFB stick.. But do I run to the DCS forums and whine about it? Nope! Becuase they clearly pointed out that the FFB is disabled in this beta version

Fixed that post for yer...

With regards to the DCS engine/landscape, I bought Flanker 2.0 (which I think Lock On/FC are based on) back in 2k and just remember how blown away I was running such a good looking sim -both aircraft models and landscape- on my Celeron 500MHz/196MB RAM/Voodoo 3 16MB rig. Also the manual that came with it, thick as a brick, was amazing. In conclusion, yes the Flanker/LockOn/FC/DCS engine has aged very gracefully and has always scaled well, I hope the same for CloD.

No need thus fixed fixed that for ya

Yup Flanker started it all.. Than Flanker 2.0.. I forget which of the two, pretty sure it was the first, that was one of the first sims to do a full up 6DOF FM. I belive Flanker was the 1st to use floating point, and PAW 1942 was one of the first if not first PC sim to do a 6DOF FM, but at the time they used fixxed point math.

Agreed 100%

this is the first time that i met a guy that flown FLANKER 2.0 in this forum:grin:
SALUTE..

S! Yes, I still have the box at my parents home with the big fat manual that I had to read back to back so I could understand the weapons systems. First time I managed to air-refuel was one of my proudest moments as a virtual pilot.:) Great sim, made by real flight engineers.

Old times... Flanker 1.0 anyone? :-P

Been there done that.. See my post above! ;)

Yes, great sim!

+1

I bought the prepaid DCS A10C back when it was clearly advertised as "beta". I had all kinds of problems -- I'd get CTD's when merely doing key assignments, plus when flying the A10 for roughly five minutes the sim would "forget" my joystick (Sidewinder FFSB2 back then) and my A10 would careen out of control into the ground. I duly reported these two glitches on their forum and went on to other things --- checking in now and again for any patch fixes. Sure enough, the retail version came out, I applied the upgrade, and all worked fine.

Thus I had no qualms about prepaying for DCS P51D beta -- and it works great on my current system. The features that are missing (temperature control, etc) I'm confident will be there when the retail upgrade is released.

In retrospect -- and hindsight -- 1C should have gone the same route last year with their hurried launch. I think if they had been straight up right from the outset and still charge $60 (or there abouts) to "prepay" for a "beta" (alpha really, but who's quibbling? LOL) the PR debacle that quickly developed could have been largely avoided, or at least minimized. Their good name with the previous IL2: 1946 series would have assured them high sales right at launch, plus the inevitable whiners would have been effectively squelched with a "It's a beta, nimrod -- why'd you buy it if you're gonna complain?"

Despite the frustrations of the current CoD, plus new glitches with the latest patch and "Hotfix", Cliffs of Dover is still the only game in town for WW2 sims of this scope with a strong online capability. It WILL get fixed, and it's encouraging to see the 1C devs working more openly with the community with these latest patches.

I'm hoping 1C takes note of how their competitors work with their customers towards fixing and polishing their product. It's a complex task, and it's not helped that we don't all use the exact same console but instead we use Personal Computers with a near-infinite number of component and peripheral combinations between us!

I love to see new WW2-aircraft sims, though -- I have A2A's Wings of Power 3 Spitfire I/II as well. Although much different in scope, they still compete for our few discretionary dollars.....and competition is good! :)

Agreed 100%

I think it is a smart way to go..

In that you know the only people who are going to buy a beta are people who flat out love what ever it is they are simulating, and thus do everything they can as beta users to help out.