Not at all I have never damaged the game in any way shape or form, I had absoloutley nothing to do with its development.

"The Hurricane and Spitfire are slow and clumsy fighters at low altitudes. They seek dogfights at high altitudes (over 5,000 m.) where their characteristics are extremely good. Used these days as night-fighters by the enemy. The Spitfire is faster than the Hurricane."

to quote Blacksix,

First repeat first beta patch.

I gotta admit though, after playing online for so long, then going back to single player, even the 'superman' maneuvers don't bother me anymore, they are just somehow easier to shoot down...

Perhaps this is why the devs don't think it's a problem, because they just don't feel the frustrations after playing for so long.

Thanks for the advice, cupcake. I'll keep that in mind when responding to your off-topic "suggestions".

Thank you for the readme. Very soothing. If we can get the performance to be stable, I could finally build myself an Ivy Bridge and go train some gunnery in massive offline flights until the coop feature gets into CloD.

Good luck with the testing.

That is just the sign of things to come. If the game gets fixed, the same complainers will find somethin else, anything, to be mad about. Hopefully some day it will be our only problem. Because people like me fought those forum wars in 2002-2005 and can`t be bothered to start them again.

People sniff out a POSSIBILITY of their fav ride being porked and they go on a crusade. I was like that few years ago, now I think it`s just funny. :D

No coop yet. Cool. So maybe we could go on with it when the games fixed first? Wouldn`t that be good? I don`t know why a "step by step" concept is so hard to understand for some people.

but we do need an objective and factual way to quantify differences in aircraft performances, and we currently dont have this for CoD (il2 compare filled that purpose in the old il2 series). so people are somewhat justified to cry fire when they feel their favored ride isnt performing as it historically should in comparison to other specific aircraft (eg spitfire vs 109 of the same period)

the only thing we ask for in CoD and the continuing series, is that these historical differences are modeled accurately, AND that information on their modeled performance characteristics in the sim is openly provided (so we can test ingame this is indeed the case)

currently this is not the case, hence there will be a significant increase in paranoia about under-performing aircraft :)

I would think ANY sort of fuel tank explosion would put the 109 down, as now they not only carry on flying, they carry on fighting with no negative impact on flight performance.

Most of time, when there is a fuel tank explosion the 109 is severely damaged. I'm just explaining why sometimes 109 can continue to fly even though the explosion should've drained all fuel.

We all have had those moments where one plane is Swiss cheesed but it continues to whiz by.

I agree that the 109s are just hardier planes (as long as the engine isn't over-reved). Brit planes are more finicky and more prone to temperature issues. I don't know if this is historical or not, but it seems that the Merlins are due for some changes with the new patch.

Ofcourse, zapatista. No point denying it. No realistic relative plane performance means no realistic tactics means no realistic battles means arcade gameplay.

I would also like for CloD to have something resembling the IL2 encyclopedia. Which ,even if portrayed the differences pretty blurry, gave an idea of what one could expect from a certain aircraft. For avodining absurdity, I`m perfectly able to see the effort(resources)-wasting with cut`npasting the entire WWII avionics history into the game. Nah, we just need the charts, some numbers (ex. : max oil temperature) that ACTUALLY RESEMBLE WHAT IS IN THE GAME, even if a little off the real data.
That is to say - not to recreate pilot manuals, but to recreate aircraft battles and pilot WWII combat experience.

I read a lot of pilot accounts from the Blitzkrieg (both sides) in the lowlands to the Battle of Brittain. I always got the impression that when flown by a competent pilot and using it strenghts, the 109E was a feared and deadly adversary. Fast, small profile and those 2x20mm made quick work out of anything unfortunate enough to fly infront of them. RAF pilots in general were aware that they were outclassed at the higher altitudes when bounced by 109's. Even acknowlegded their fire power inferiority in interviews after the war. In 1940 the 109E was the best fighter in the West, by a country mile. If Goering had used the 109E for what it was designed, unrestrained free hunt with a range extending droptank, the RAF would've been toast by late September.

Flying Spits an Hurries I've blown many 109's out of the sky online. Make sure you get close and in convergence. Bombers take more work but are doable and it feels realistic from what I've read on the subject over the years. Even in a Spit mkI online I do pretty good against 109 drivers that don't use their strenghts. Had a 45 minute dogfight over Le Havre that went from 15k to down on the deck and back up to 15k. He never got a clean shot and I never was able to get on his six. One on one close in I did pretty good. Had it been historical (against experienced 109 driver) I would've been dead in 2 minutes. Experienced 109 driver would've done bnz tacktics with his wingman and extend over and over again. I was in a corner, unable to run away. In the end I noticed I got low on gas and tried to extend with a Split S and a wild course altering, turning dive. Hoping he would lose sight. No such luck, He nailed me, straight and level on the deck. Probably my most enjoyable online 1 vs 1 dogfight ever.

Point I'm trying to make is this. In their historical context and flown with tactics of the time the 109 is supposed to be superior. In online mode, out of historical context, the planes are much closer. After a bit of a turnfight, energy advantage depleted, the 109 becomes a more equal adversary. From that point on individual flying skills and luck will decide the outcome.

Great update. Good to see that more work is spread out over all cores. I hope that's a trend they continue. Bit of a bummer to have a game that only uses 25% of the avalable recources. Now it actually may make sense to get an 8 core machine. Curious to see how the Intel and AMD 8 core processors deal with Il2CoD after the patch. The other big questionmark for me is how they fixed sound. Shooting the guns in the RAF planes is hardly noticible. even the 20mm's in the 109 are muffled. Hope that's fixed.

I'm sorry but you have it absolutely backwards. In historical context the RAF actually had an advantage as the LW were ordered to stay with the bombers negating their boom and zoom advantage. In a video game with unrestricted
ROE the 109's make mints meat of the RAF birds as they can do whatever they want to. In an online game arena with no orders. Realism falls on it's face, with one side constantly getting beat for the sake of historical flight model. So tell ya what I'll continue to try to get a height advantage if you 109 drivers never stray from your bombers. After all we are being "realistic" aren't we?

Hi Luthier

- have you fixed the sound radar? Approaching a red fighter from behind unnoticed is quite impossible today.
- Also, has the mirror of Spit/Hurri been fixed ?

Impending death? You're right. we've been basically beta testing this thing for the last year, and paying for it also, so it was. If BoM is needed to keep the financial ship upright and floating, so it be. The combined purchase prise of the Russian and US version was $50 for me. I spend about $2000 on a new rig last year mainly for Il2CoD. When the 110 based Nvida GPU's comes out in the fall I'll built an 8 core IveBridge machine around 2 of those plus 3x27 inch 120hz led monitors. Another 4 grand down the pipeline. This is not a hobby but an addictive obsession. I'm thanking Oleg, Luthier and the rest of the developement team on my bare knees for developing this groundbreaking simulator. Bit over the top maybe? I don't see anyone else out there making my virtual flying dreams come true. They have us addicts (waaaaay beyond fanboism here) by our gonads where it concerns WWII combat aviation. With the program patched up and a SDK released we, the people, can fix the BoB to our hearts content while the developement continues.

Indeed very good news, thanks for the update today!
Can not wait to try it:)

Not for the entire battle, that order was mid to late BoB - I cant remember when or find the date, Im assuming late August.

However from the most unreliable of sources, heres this from wiki:

"By September, standard tactics for raids had become an amalgam of techniques. A Freie Jagd would precede the main attack formations. The bombers would fly in at altitudes between 16,000 feet (4,900 m) and 20,000 feet (6,100 m), closely escorted by fighters. Escorts were divided into two parts (usually Gruppen), some operating in close contact with the bombers, and others a few hundred yards away and a little above."


O how I loathe wikipedia. :mad:


It is, through non rose tinted glasses, widely acknowlegded that the most superior fighter, by a margin, in 1940 was the 109. Later in the war the arms race sees the spit and 109 leap frogging each other however many many other factors must be taken into consideration. Its simply NOT who had the best plane won. As you mentioned - orders for one hampered the 109 driver late in BoB.

I have a huge respect for Hurricane pilots, they were the back bone of the BoB and many other theatres where the Spitfire was largely abscent for some time. Sadly the 109 WAS better than the Hurri and the pilots where often better also. However its not just the kite - Its largley the pilot. That brings us to another factor, we as virtual pilots NEVER DIE. We learn from our mistakes, we all have more than 5 Victories (an ace) and more than 10 (Experte ;) )... We live to fly another day! We have the knowledge of the best tactics that those who did this for real did not. So its not all down to the plane, which in this Sim - should be as historic as possible and the rest is up to us.

Depends a bit on the time frame, eh? Only the later stages of the BoB were the 109s tied to the bombers. Then, however, I agree.

Looking forward to the patch, I have an itch in my finger.

David Hayward said:

>>Consider yourself fortunate if they don't add a forum ban surcharge. <<

Oh be quiet. Would you like a big stir-spoon to go with that comment?

Now, back to the fact of Clod being quietly dropped off the radar.

I now fully expect a lot of 'they always intended user-made campaigns and content, what more do you want' type posts, in lieu of the 'it's coming, it's coming, they haven't stopped working on it.'

Well yes, they have. Merged engine enhancements, and that's about it.

Ben

Carguy,

Skąd jesteś :) ?

Happy to hear its almost done.

This is true but it leads me to another conclusion.

Since we don't die, we all gradually inch towards complete "mastery" of our respective machines. If the 109 is by a margin the better fighter, won't the 109 pilot eventually have complete 'by a margin' advantage over the Hurricane/Spit pilot?

Just an analogy to help the point: I've got a Mazda 3 Sport and I drive it every day. I drive it so much that I think I'm pretty good at pushing it to its absolute limit. Now my buddy gets an Audi r8. While he's brand new at driving it, he spins out in corners or whatever and I pass him. It's an even race...up until he gets skilled with it. No matter how well I drive my Mazda 3 Sport, as long as he doesn't f it up in the r8, he wins. Because we've spent all the hours we need to get mastery with our equipment.

Just sub in a Hurricane and a 109 for the cars.

This isn't a casual game. I doubt we've got too many online pilots who just play a few minutes here and there and will never make their skills improve.

Very good news,cant wait to give it a try

Ben, I completely agree, but this isn't new knews: just regurgitated and rephrased old news. Luthier has been very good at this: he's been 100% honest about the development of CloD from day 1 of release. It's just the same as all previous Il-2 games.

I think it's good. No offence to the team, but I think they are much better placed modelling the Eastern Front: their previous experience and knowledge will be excellent. The same can't always be said for the BoB. They had a good stab, but they're limited in their location, and have access to less resources than we do.

I think the BoB aspect will be handed over to the community, and this will be a good decision.

Obviously one can view this as annoying: we bought a BoB game and were delivered a channel scrap. Hopefully when the team (or a team) goes back to the ETO, they will incorporate the community work and help shape this growing simulation.

#overlyoptimistic?

You don't even see the irony, do you?

Very happy, I had a feeling something good would surface from the morass today!
http://www.comparestoreprices.co.uk/...t--flowers.jpg

Personally, I can live with things being imperfect while they`re patching CLOD, this may well be the testing ground.

For BOM however, the bar is going to be raised high and the devs should not expect any leniency (as they`ve received plent of it over the last year) - this needs to be ROF of the WWII theatre, anything less will be disappointment.

You got any examples?

Philip_Ed...actually I completely agree (seriously).

My main jab is not at the dev team (though I think it could have been made more transparent earlier on...) but at the apologists. Now that I've got that out of my system I also think it's quite logical as far as game dev is concerned. Still, it's a shame for what might have been. But clean slate and all that. There are very few dev houses that can handle the albatrossissues and the funding of supporting an old app.

Ben

Hayward said:

>>You don't even see the irony, do you? <<

Yes, but the post outweighs it.

Now, your turn. No, I insist, after you....set high horse to canter, trot....

Good job Addman for providing the credible source for performance information! Keep up the good work and please provide more valuable insight for the stuff you are well versed in the future also...

No, it doesn't. It's the same old tripe. They're still fixing the game and you're still complaining.

Sweeet!!!! GReat news from the patch! And the screenshots of the sequel look better and better every time.


+1

Don't be sorry, you're right. I dont play a whole lot online. Especially not in historical scenario's. The 109's hands were tied by Goerings orders but the BoB was not lost because of this tactical oversight.
I've read many accounts of RAF Squadrons being jumped by 109's because they arrived thousands of feet below the Germans, despite radar. 109's closely escorting bombers are still going to mess you up if you show up 4000 ft too low. This happend so often that Squadrons would add 5-6 thousand feet to their assigned altitude when being vectored or adjust course for better positioning. What I tried to convey was that "IF" the scenarios and tactics online where followed historically, the 109 would be superior(as it is now and will be even more so after the patch). What Joe sixpack actually does online I have no say over. Most of these things turn into airquake and have, indeed, nothing to do with what happened in the summer and fall of 1940.

What I'm worried about is if you try to balance the planesets performance for game balance sake you cannot ever create a realistic scenario. At some point historical scenario's will be part of the online game by mission design and the real weak and strong points will come out and be utilised. Realistic tactics worked pretty good in the old air warrior days where efforts where made by participating squads to keep it real. If you were asigned to protect your bombers, that's whay you did. They tried to lure us down where they performed better or got the bombers uncovered but we stayed high or B&Z'd and fought on our own terms. Worked well in 40 or 44 scenario's. Maybe a pipedream but I keep my hopes up that the airquake mentality lessens when more squads come over to Il2CoD from Il2 when the game is patched.

Fiat handling was always wrong, I always felt like I was trying to take off in a brick with wings!

And after you passed 3000 meters the brick actually started falling.:grin:

That is true, and that is the way it should if planes have historical performance, i´m sure there are other games that favor balance versus realism but that is not this game. TEAM TACTICS is something very important in those conditions, in IL2-1946 I allways see that when 2 great pilots meet in combat it all comes down to using your brain and not making mistakes.
Planes don´t win battles, pilots do. One of the planes i love the most in il2 1946 is the mc200, and believe me i have downed all kinds of planes with the little plane, from spits to La7´s

No, because we dont all learn the same, fly for the same time, drop our bad habits etc. Plus there is always luck and circumstance...

So the G50 could become a bit useful now. Mass Regia Aeronautica raids anyone? ;)

Absolutely! Finally we can keep up with the Br.20's when escorting them.:)

I'm in! :grin:

I was hoping we would see some official support for Sli/Crossfire mentioned with the new patch, but we will just have to wait and see. Good to see mentioned that they have worked on the stutters/micro pauses that a lot of us have been getting. No mention either about memory leak fixes that some are noticing, another wait and see what happens. This should make some major improvements if it all works as planed. Maybe with the new graphics Nvidia/ATI will come to the party with some Sli/Crossfire coding for CoD. Reading Luthier's comments further improvements will come with the expansions just as the old Il2 series just as I said in an ealier post about the subject. This is now showing signs of becoming all that the development team said it would. Great to see multi core support being optimised, another huge improvement.

I have one question for Luthier, how will the new graphics affect those of us with 1gig of V/ram in our cards?? at the moment my system shows that my 1gig is being used totally in some missions.

Have just noticed a reply from BlackSix in another post, NO SLI/Crossfire or AA fixes in this patch

interesting times on the way. The big equlizer online is going to be the Blenheim. With the engines fixed there will be a lot of players taking them for a joyride across the chanel. :grin: Can't wait.

He said "not in this beta", so who knows, maybe they'll sneak it in the final release.

I m happy to hear that AI won't be crashing anymore when player has landed. But will they land on their home base I was thinking.

The new screenshots are great..the large church looks just like the one in Gorkee...except the Volga is missing.but well done..this looks very exciting..Im in for BOM as long as the fps and stutters are fixed.well..particles too. I'm very optimistic.

Sure is, still I thought the Blennie was ok, after taking off anyway. Quite fast and all. Also, I kinda liked the challenge of nursing those engines but I am a bit sadomasochistic so that's just me.:)

Waiting for update ...;-)

Antialiasing and aniso will be included too?

Nothing wrong with it now! I hope they've re-introduced mixture control though! :grin:

However, Addman old bean, a lot of work seems to have gone in to the G.50, and the Blenheim, and they've altered the Hurri MkI.

Which Airforce do you think that points to for the sequel?

Thanks, looks like my 4 cores will have something to do now.
Might be time to get the other 2 sticks of 4 GB ram.

So basically you don't have a chance against a 109 unless you have your 3 friends with you. So if my 3 friends aren't on, I'm not going to log on either, leading to others not logging on leading to a bunch of empty servers, except for the packed blue team of coarse.


I love how the realites come out of the wood work when the nerf that has just occurred benefits them. But cry foul when anything is touched on their beloved aircraft.


Realism simply will not work in an online environment. At least not the realism that 1c is apparently going for. If a single player can't log on and have half a chance of surviving 5 mins let alone getting a kill. Well guess what.... They leave and they don't come back. Like it or not that is online gaming no matter what your targeted audience. if you aren't going to somehow enforce the tactical directive of the LW, how on earth can you think that FM realism will produce anything but discontent? In this case the circumstances are as equal to if not more important than the FM.

Oooo yeah baby! Time to uncork the koskenkorva and replace the landing gear with landing skiis.:cool:

Time to pack a vodka hipflask in the flight suit and a tokarev ;)

I'm looking outside and seeing (a dark) England as I speak. They can't see what I'm seeing. It's one of the reasons why I think the landscape could be so much better.

I have access to a number of notable museums on the BoB. They don't.

I mean look at the game: the markings for the RAF A/C are off in places, it could always be better. They've done a great job in most places, but things could be better. Note that a lot of the sources they used for their resources have come from people like myself (e.g. I assisted in the RAF clothing seen in-game. They didn't use all of my research though...)

I'm already looking forward to the new UI being worked on for BoM. The CloD is very ugly and clunky.

Yesss improved g50! I used to fly this thing more than the 109 online when I fly blue :)

Either you have a simulator or a balanced online game. WWII was not balanced by any means. So the only solution to have great online sorties is to modify the FM of all fighters to match or to be balanced around a chosen standard . Yea it sounds like an option for online gaming.
Or wait for some of the next sequel installments from around 1944 to get things somewhat balanced naturally.
Mk IX, 109G6, 190A8, P51, La7 .. name some others

Can you be a champ and literally go outside and take a picture of the local landscape and post it here? I for one have only seen the country from the confines of lakenHeath afb.

Terrific news can't wait for the patch.

Yes bring it pls, i am exiting to get it!

1944 seems a long way off for 1C. I mean it looks like we are going to bounce around in 1939 - 1940 in each theatre before we move on. That seems like the only viable fix for this issue of hugely overpowered sides.

There is an amazing invention called the camera. Google it.

:)

Thanks for the Update. The news that there are some AI, Commands, and FM fixes to go along with the performance fixes has the sim making a huge step forward. Hopefully there will be another patch or two to COD before the Sequels release, but either way, the community will now be able start building more immersive and historic Battle of Britain scenarios. The future for COD is starting to look very bright, especially when the SDK is released.

thank you!

omg...very sorry to hear you have only 3 friends. (me myself and I)hope you can break free from your confinement.

Great news on the update - I'm grinning from ear to ear, can't wait until it's finally released. Wasn't expecting FM fixes so that's a massive bonus and as long as they're historically accurate there can't be too many complaints. Hope this isn't the last update for cliffs but it's a massive massive step forward.

Cheers

thnx for the update guys Its genuinely appreciated :grin:

Id like to think that the devs would never do anything so daft as to even out plane performances to bow down to some sort of arcade style of gaming, after all this is a sim still isn’t it chaps ?

If people want 50/50 type plane sets, they can simply enter the online severs that cater for this type of fun.

I for one love to fly for the reds and in the right hands the reds have some splendid tools to do damage those 109s

David Hayward said:

>>They're still fixing the game and you're still complaining.<<

Claptrap. You mean they're ditching the game that never was. A round-up of some minor stuff and that's your lot. The focus has moved.

Read Luthier's posts. They are fixing the engine and content for BoM. Clod is being put out to grass, without apology. It will have retrospective engine improvements, the forthcoming patch, and that's it. There will be no more content for Clod.

It's come to something when the crticis have more understanding and acceptance of this than the cheerleaders like you.

Wow man very mature comment there. Actually I am a member of a virtual squadron that attempts to have fun in this game. We have about 4 active flyers that come on at varied times during the week. They carry different hours than I do, mostly because of work. So if they aren't on, and to be successful at having any chance at taking a 109 down you need 3-4 reds, What is the point of me logging on? Please try and form an actual thought this time in your reply.

Its a SIMULATOR... It simulates.... If you want fairness your in the wrong "game". :cool:

Chivas said:

>>The news that there are some AI, Commands, and FM fixes to go along with the performance fixes has the sim making a huge step forward. <<

To go with the four steps back as it is summarily dumped and forgotten.

>>Hopefully there will be another patch or two to COD before the Sequels release,<<

Read Luthier's posts. He wants rid.

>> but either way,<<

No, not either way.

>>the community will now be able start building more immersive and historic Battle of Britain scenarios.<<

Is that the happy-shiny community, or thr well-and-truly-peed-off community? Is there a CLod community?

>>The future for COD is starting to look very bright,<<

Yes, the future's Orange. Ooops, wrong thread.

>> especially when the SDK is released<<

Umm, yeah.

Surely a diamond-encrusted twirling baton by now? You've earned it, by jimminy.

Ben

Ok then I'll see you in the skies hugging your bombers and not diving to chase me! I can't wait for our next simulated fight!


Yeah. That's my point. If you are going to "simulate" then let's go the whole 9, otherwise you have just tipped the balance of a pvp online GAME. Even further than it was already scued.

Which doesn't give an accurate colour representation. Google it.




It doesn't explain the lack of hedgerows, colours, field shapes etc which were pasted in bucket-loads on this forum anyway. The camera is useful in showing the geometry of the country, and as a resident the game could be better.

Stop being difficult David.

So basically.... Two Weeks

I imagine that they will most likely never change the map, and so a question for you. Do you think if they offered hedgerows of various shapes in the objects list, would that help.

I do appreciate the communication of the developers to the paid customers to give some hope to the future...

I've got a good feeling about this patch.

There is a map builder type SDK planned which will allow the community to make smaller maps. I would think the same tool could be used to adjust existing developer maps. The developer only wants to deter the community from making larger maps that they plan to develop themselves. On that note its quite possible that in the future the community will be able to take trees out, add hedgerows, and other adjustments that will greatly improve the overall look of COD's terrain.

Thanks for the update. I hope the patch lives up to the expectation.

Looks nice but what happened to the shadows in the new shot?

Even Hartmann got shot down a few times. Everybody lets their SA drop now and then, and team tactics will always trump 1v1 skills.

I really hope the CTD issue in multiplayer has been fixed with this patch. That has been the biggest problem of this game IMHO.

That's what the Beta will be all about... testing in the wild over a large range of different configurations before official RTM

Very true.

I guess my initial post on this whole subject is really just part of my occasional 'vent' based on frustrations that sometimes come out of piloting the inferior planes.

I made my choice to fly red. I'll keep doing so. Who knows, with a slightly improved I/Ia and an allowable IIa, the dogfighting might get a big more exciting for everyone.

I'm hoping with the improved stability the patch will provide that more suitable online missions can be created that give both sides equal chances to win the mission. The simulator stuff may not be fair to both sides, but the gaming side stuff should be.

I heard that. :)

I heard that too, but I'll reserve judgement until after the patch......:neutral:

Thanks B6, thanks Luthier, thanks to all the development team and the testers.
God bless you all!
http://www.jesus27.ru/images/stories...halleluya.jpeg

So you didnt even read my last post. Then the discussion is over. It its not a discussion but an arguement with a fanatic...

This is not a "pvp online GAME" its a simulator... :-P

Farbs, for the benefit of the uneducated, (me), what does 'pvp' mean please?

Indeed.

Yes on public servers I suppose that fine.

:confused:

pvp is a MMORPG term meaning player vs player... Hence nothing to do with simulation but only fairness and balance...

Ah, thanks. And MMORPG? :lol:

I'm assuming the 'RPG' bit to be 'role play game'.

+1!

:-)

It's close enough. Google it.



Yeah, that's just a tragic oversight in a FLIGHT SIM.

You're complaining that the hedgerows aren't quite right in a FLIGHT SIM. Don't talk to me about being difficult. Physician, heal thyself.

Seriously, this sim comes up short for you because the hedgerows aren't quite right and some of the decals might be wrong. That is amazing.

Yes, it sure is something. How long before you follow the dev team's lead and move on to something else?

So you have had improvement for CTD for months ? thx for sharing...:evil:

Looks like after months it is still not 100%.. what happened to all the people who said don't release it until it is 100%?? lose your patience ? This should of been released in smaller patches months ago. Watch the fur fly when the beta is released...and still no su-26 that was mentioned as a flyable plane right at the start...

Man, I thought my programming job was hard!! The subtlties and obscure factors they deal with when tweaking the flight model must be maddening!

Thanks BS, for such a detailed updated. I'm really getting excited about this again.

Thanks so much for this update!
Honestly, I wasn't expecting much from.the patch other than the graphics rewrite, but you've also.addressed the more glaring FM issues too!
Very pleasantly surprised. Hope the release goes smoothly.

is there a fix for the whining divots that bug the hell out of us :?:

perfect luftwhiner behavior there for a fake-real advocate, gloating they will/are further unfairly toning down the spitfires and hurricanes compared to their historical performance (other then the spitfire IIb currently needing a little toning down in level flight speed performance). historically the 109 and spitfires of the BoB era were very evenly matched, and each had their respective advantages/weaknesses. we (the red team) are not asking for equal performance in combat aircraft (109 vs spitfire), but we ARE ASKING for simulation of correct historical strong/weak points so the red/blue sides in CoD can be "equally matched". BUT THIS IS CURRENTLY NOT POSSIBLE IN CoD !! this historical relationship is currently not modeled in the sim in its curent state (and luthier and Co seems to be totally unaware of this problem, so i suspect mostly fly for the blue side when they use the sim), AND THIS PROBLEM IS ABOUT TO GET WORSE IF THEY CRIPPLE THE RED TEAM FURTHER BY NEUTERING THE SPIT IIb. generally speaking the problem can be summed up in their historical context as:

the spitfires:
- where more agile, had better roll rate and tighter turning circles then 109's.
- but there carburetors would cut out on a sudden dive/nose-down
- had the advantage of flying above friendly soil, allowing ejecting or downed pilots to fight another day (sometimes even on the same day)
- could refuel and rearm quickly, being back in the air protecting home soil 2 or 3x faster then the blue team, and ready for the next wave of incoming bombers. this meant the same allied pilots could hit a german formation (and escorts) on the way in, and on the way out of their mission, meaning each allied pilot almost doubled in ability to engage the enemy
- english production of spitfires and hurricanes significantly outpaced the german ability to provide new planes and crews, this did become a factor in the 2e half of BoB when allied fighter plane numbers started to outnumber german fighters, AND allied aircrew were rotated to less active rear-located airfields for rest and recovery which the germans never were (for the whole duration of the war on all fronts). hence allied crews were generally more rested, and were constantly supplied with new replacement planes (but had the initial disadvantage at the beginning of BoB that very inexperienced fresh new pilots kept being being sent to frontline squadrons, leading to high fatality rates for those that were not quick learners)
- once luthier cripples the spitfire lineup further by reducing the IIb in speed so severely (whereas it only needs some minor trimming), all we end up with is that all spitfire models behave similar to hurricanes in relation to 109's, with the spitfires flight performance being toned down to hurricane levels, and giving the 109's in il2-CoD total performance advantage in almost all situations (which was not the historical case)

the 109's:
- had slightly better dive speed (used successfully for escape from engagements with spitfires but only when done from sufficient altitude), mainly because that slight speed advantage combined with the "no carburator fuel starvation"problem in the initial part of the dive,
- had similar level flight speeds and climb rates to the spitfires at low and medium altitudes (except at high altitude where they had an advantage initially),
- could spiral climb out of reach of a chasing spitfire, the combined climb/rudder action was a unique strenght for that plane model (shape/size/wheight) during most of the war
- had the disadvantage of very brief flying times over enemy territory, and limited ability to escort bombers all the way to london (could do for coastal airfields and installations)
- when starting an engagement with hight advantage, they could jab and take potshots at enemy fighters and zoom back to altitude to sit back on the perch, and then do the same all over again. the slingshot speed effect that allowed them to regain altitude was the main advantage here (combined with the linear aiming of the nose guns that didnt need to wait for convergence to be correct at a specific distance from the enemy). BUT USING THIS TACTIC LED TO MASSIVE UNSUSTAINABLE LOSSES IN THE BOMBER FORMATIONS SENT TO ENGLAND, hence it was not a sustainable strategy to try and have a "succesfull outcome of the war" (from the german view point). point exactly proven by the historical massive 109 losses that ensued when they were ordered to close escort the bomber formations, without their slingshot potshots and sitting on the pirch advantage
- when fighting at equal altitude and engaging at equal speed (without the element of surprise to be able to shoot an unaware enemy pilot in the back while they were not looking), THE 109's WERE OUTCLASSED BY THE SPITFIRES DURING THE WHOLE BOB PERIOD, why do you think Garland asked Goering for squadrons of spitfires to be supplied so they could be more effective against the enemy ? why do you think so many german pilots came down with stress related problems ((Kanal Krankheit) which further reduced their ability to perform well ?
- the combined result of these factors led to the fact that in the last 1/2 of the BoB era, german fighter pilots were either closely escorting bomber formations (as instructed) and getting decimated, or were in high altitude "free hunt" positions over the southern part of the english coast and RELUCTANT TO COME DOWN TO FORMATIONS OF ALLIED FIGHTERS AT MEDIUM/LOW ALTITUDE.

if you compare that to the 109 uber plane behavior we have now (with the recent news of spitfires being further crippled in speed), you arrive at a completely fictitious scenario where:
- 109's outpace spitfires at all altitudes
- 109's are like flying bricks of concrete and much more damage resistant
- 109's can explode in a fireball and be fully on fire without their flight performance being affected
- 109's can out-turn, out-dive, and out-climb spitfire at any altitude
- german fighter pilots can completely ignore escorting and protecting their bomber formations, yet still claim to win engagements
- downed german pilots keep magically and perpetually re-spawning to fresh planes without the historical context being included

CONCLUSION:
so the "fake real" 109 luftwhiners shouldnt constantly and perpetually be able to try and replicate the hight/speed/dive advantage, have bullit proof planes that fly while on fire, and out maneuvre the red team (as it is becoming right now). this problem is much exacerbated online because the only servers gameplay that is present right now is air-quake over the channel, THIS SCENARIO IS NOT BOB FOLKS !! in RL they would have been court marshaled or shot by friendly fire from their surviving bomber pilots who made it back to base

but it is about to even get worse !! as the previous il2 series has shown, and we are about to have history repeated, you can predict the russian planes to significantly outperform their german counterparts, where i-16's will dominate 109's for ex. the russian planes will be modeled on russian "facts" and figures, based on glorious war propaganda reports of their historical greatness, and completely ignore the 100's of german pilots with "above 50 kill scores" in that era of the war, because the initial russian campaign was by and large a big turkey shoot for the germans. il2's didnt have rear gunners initially and were easy pickings (no matter how well armored), and the early mig's and i-16's were swatted down like flies (unless some stupid german fighter pilot tried to dogfight at low speed with them)

right now what we need to correct the flight models and damage models of the blue/red relationship in BoB, is historical facts and figures to keep presenting to luthier and Co, AND we need luthier to gives us il2-compare type data OPENLY so we can see exactly what they provided under the hood, in 2012 it is way to late to expect us to make do with "lets just imagine this plane behaves historically, and if i outperform the historical opponent it just means i was the better pilot". facts regarding the date used in the sim for plane performance and speed needs to be OPENLY PROVIDED


ooops, this got a bit to long :) its is worth debating historical facts on the 109/spitfire/hurricane performances in a separate thread

^^^^^^^

That's a very nice post.