Hm, so how do you expect anyone to join/watch? ;)

You need to look a few posts back Luno. The duel was set to go for 7 PM but Bad already capitulated.

Do you see, why a few pages back I tried nicely to exit gracefully. Your hatred is against me and is diverting attention from possible real flaws in 4.11. I am happy to speak on engineering topics all day, but that is not the point of the thread. Let us let some other voices chime in, and I will return to my research papers. Those of you who really enjoy tough combat though, can stop bye WD Fights later this week (full real) and see for yourselves if I can manage an engine and only fly spit 25lbs or whether I can really fly with the difficult P51s and TAs.

Basic Electronics now ? Its just ohms law but using impedance's . Not rocket science.


Here is one from my first year Electrical bachelor degree. They handed this out as a problem to students BEFORE teaching them Star-Delta conversion :D Can be a real mind bender without Star-Delta ...

Given a cube where every side is 10 ohm what is the resistance between diagonally opposite corners of the cube.

I've said it many times before that I prefer consistent content managed by TD.

Besides, you don't have a clue about how many populated full-real (or near full-real) servers there are back in 2007.

Sorry, Luno, I see your confusion. WD Fights was up till about 7:21 PST but that is when Bad could not get Xfire installed. We just went to private server from that point on.

Apologize for confusion. Did not understand your question.

Galway, ssssssssssssssssshhhhh. Dont give away simple answers.

Hehe :)

Got to get back to work tonight guys. Signing off for today. Lets try to move this thread to a more productive plane tomorrow. I already suggested several other good fliers and one chimed in. Lets await others and learn more.

With a quick search on the internet, I was able to read or download original flight manuals for the P-51D Mustang, bf109g2, and flight instructions for the P-47 and other allied aircraft.

In the flight manual for the P-51D I noticed that 100% throttle was 61" manifold pressure, and 67" was only obtainable by breaking what they called a "safety wire".

The Bf109 manual also came with warnings not to use 1.42ata.

Another thing I noticed in these real flight manuals and data was that how similar the rpm operating ranges for all types of engines under all flight conditions was between 2000-3000 rpm, but that recommended operating ranges were all below 3000 rpm. I did not have the manual for any aircraft with the Jumo engine like the Ta152.

This all goes right along with what my friend Pete Amsler, a WWII fighter AND bomber pilot, also development engineer on the B-29, said about how using WEP was not something that was a regular part of flying WWII aircraft and that if used that ended the service life of that particular engine, if it made it back to base.

Flying IL2 also backs this up, even with the radiator wide open, if you fly around using WEP on a BF109 or Mustang non-stop like they do dogfighting on common fast dogfight servers like Grij, Perwach etc. your engine overheats and blows. This unrealistic and un-historic style of fun soon ruins the engines in IL2 aircraft using realistic engine settings and CEM, as it should.

IL2 patch 4.11 seems to be a leap forwards for flight simmers who want a more accurate simulation of WWII aviation.

If you fly around in a Mustang or BF109 fighting at 110% throttle, which is the 67" of manifold pressure or the German 1.42ata that the original operating manual says is past the SAFETY wire or not safe, then you are going to likely overstress your engine. If you fly smart like a real WWII pilot using Energy, surprise and position to do the job, then also like in WWII you will save your engine and it will get you back home.

The unrealistic flying methods and aircraft use in past patches on "dueling" and fast dogfight servers have been relegated to "gamer" status with this latest patch. That use of the IL2 flight sim is now only available to those flying on easier settings by turning off realistic features.

We can still have fast dogfight and dueling with Realistic settings, but the pilots will have to grow up and become simmers and figure out how preserving the engines of their aircraft fits into combat.

As soon as 4.11 came out I jumped into a fast duel server with an old acquaintance and had oil spurting all over the Bf109 windshield very quickly just by overheating it, flying it like patch 4.10 and earlier. The new 4.11 features brings an entire new experience, a welcomed one to the IL2 flight sim.

IL2 will never be perfect, as it has a limited set of features to replicate hundreds of WWII aircraft, many of which had different mechanisms for controlling prop-pitch and engine rpm, but it does a better job of it than any other flight sim has ever done on so many different aircraft types. The 0% through 100% pitch that is allowed in IL2 will not work the same on every aircraft and it should not, as they were all different machines in WWII. The hydraulic mechanism on the P-51 Mustang for controlling prop pitch was surely much different than that on aircraft from different countries and from different periods of WWII.

If you have a favorite aircraft, get your hands on the original flight manual and papers for it and read it, and read several books that are first hand accounts of WWII pilots in that type of aircraft. It seems that the people working on IL2 Sturmovik have done at least that.......

Great summary Jumoschwanz. i think youve summed most things up in that one post :)

i know this is only a minor point, but i feel there is a bit of an innacuracy with the tempest. its nothing severe or game crippleing, more of a nuisance.

in game the oil is considered to be overheating at about 82 degrees and above.

in the tempest pilots notes, (air publication 2458c), section 3 'operating data'

you have a 1 hour climb limit at [3700 rpm, +7 boost, 125*C coolant, 90*C oil]
you also have a 5 minute WEP limit of 3700 rpm, +9 boost, 130*C coolant, 95*oil]


i would ask can the 'engine:overheat' message caused by an oil overheat switch on if you exceed the 90*C level?

i know its low priority but seeing that message for an hour gets tiresome, and can mask more severe problems. if anyone is willing to cross varify for me i would appreciate it. i included the engine limitations page as an attatchment.




on a slightly different point, for ultimate realism i think that the engine overheat and wep messages should be able to be turned off like the speed bar can be. does anyone else feel sadistic enough to want pilots to actually look at their gauges, or is it just me !

Quick post from phone, but which 109?
1.42ata was cleared for DB605 in something Luke august '43 iirc.
http://www.kurfurst.org/Engine/Boost...HB-T0-Full.JPG

Actually, I agree with your post two above Jumo.

(as a side note though, earlier, about 5 pages back, you said, "You don't seem to understand that IL2 4.11 is a different flight sim than IL2 4.10.1". I understand it alright, I just dont agree with the 4.11 interpretation of the data. Just like one guy looks at Macchu Picchu and sees ancient aliens helping man, I just see man being ingenious. 4.11 needs further tweaking. And I dont make my own aircraft. I simply take the FM from 4.10.1 and put it in 4.11 and then adjust the speed/drag specifics and overheat parameters to function as it did in 4.10.1. The TA still overheats, it just does not do so in one combat climb now.)

Believe me, if I had the free time, I would love to 'make' my own planes. Starting with a correctly done F4U-D and the missing F4U-4.


Trust me when I say, if there is one guy flying online who is hoping for more advanced CEM, it is WD (with the caveat it is applied in an accurate model, or as best can be hoped for).

Yes, Shaun, I am that sadistic. Full real... should mean, just that. No aids, ... nada. You and your instruments.

Better game:

http://www.hackedfreegames.com/game/1701/cowboy-duel

(And its already hacked! Yay!)

@WD:
a) zero, in any direction
b) a = x''; Newton 2; mass is mostly assumed constant.

I don't even know why I'm bothering with this... I think the thread is deteriorating rapidly now (actually, it has been since after Post # 1) :rolleyes:

Posting equations to prove your point? I guess you see something new every day. :)

These personal assaults you mention stared from you, no one else WD. Had you started your discussion as an academic you claim to be - people would definitely listen. This way you and only you are responsible for this thread deviating from the original subject / problem and people insulting you back.

Right now when someone looks at your posts sees a 5 year old kid looking for attention. Calling out for "duels" and honor"?! Saying that you a better pilot than any of us here? Why is this even important to the discussion? How can a sane person not question your credibility? Please tell me...

(quite hilarious I am afraid)

I was going to put WD on my ignore list but he is very entertaining (in a silly sort of way.)

This page from the FW190A5 flight manual gives interesting facts about the recommended use of the aircraft's engine under all conditions.

Emergency power, 1.42 ata manifold pressure, is recommended for 3 minutes. In the P-51d this is the same as using 67" manifold pressure.

Steig- und Kampfleistung, Climb and Combat power is the 1.32 ata manifold pressure has an endurance of 30 minutes. In the P-51 Combat power is 61" manifold pressure.

This shows again how in patches prior to 4.11 how even with CEM engaged, the way we used the engines power on duel and fast dogfight servers was not historical or realistic at all.

According to the FW190 flight manual and data from other WWII aircraft, a flight sim like IL2 might let you:

Use emergency power in a FW190 for 3 minutes, or until the engine is actually overheated, if you continue to use it without reducing throttle you are going to damage it.

Use Climb and Combat power for 30 minutes before the engine has to be throttled back.

If you use Emergency power for as long as the engine can stand it, then until the engine cools down, you probably will not even be able to use regular Combat and Climb power for several minutes until your engine cools enough, leaving you vulnerable to those around you who fought only with Combat power and kept their engines cool!

So that is your gamble. If you fly as if you were in pre 4.11 patches of IL2 using full emergency power in your FW or P-51, then you had better be able to defeat your enemy and get to safety in the time span of a few minutes, because you could be left largely without engine power for a period of time!

If on the other hand you cultivate tactics and techniques that allow you to run actual Combat power then you will be able to fight and stay in combat for a very long time, maybe until you have to leave because either the job is done or you are out of fuel....

4.11 has handed IL2 pilots more realism. Those IL2 pilots who can't hack it or adapt and either stick with older patches or manufacture MODS and hacks to switch 4.11 aircraft back to 4.10 style CEM and power, are labeling themselves as gamers, and not WWII flight simmers.

It is interesting that finally the IL2 sim gets a non-crippled 1.42 190-a4 right at the same time the extra power becomes unavailable for use except for a more limited amount of time. Oh well...

S!

http://htmlimg4.scribdassets.com/2tg...2d018ccbb5.jpg

Lastly, in many theaters and periods of WWII aircraft parts and supplies were very scarce for one reason or another. Engines and parts were used past their recommended service lives, or with the threat of no future supplies squadrons used strategies that would let them get the most use and inflict the most damage before their equipment was used up. It is easy to find WWII pilot accounts where they are flying fighter aircraft that are past their prime and/or patched together with parts cannibalized from damaged aircraft etc..

So not only might a WWII fighter pilot be even more apt to try to preserve his engine with the threat of short supplies, he may not even have been ABLE to use it's full performance as it was built because of lack of parts, poor fuel or an amount of hours on the engine and airframe that meant it could break even below combat power and stresses.

P.S. In this video I attack ace p-38 lates with a 44' Dora and I never use the "erhohte notleistung" or "increases emergency power". Instead of creating an E advantage with the engine and WEP as most of us have always done in the past, I make sure I start out with a 2000 meter altitude advantage and do not abuse the engine for combat. I have limited and old equipment to fly with, and in the heat of battle I have two settings available for prop pitch, so I set them to the two most useful settings I want to try. Here I try auto and 0% prop pitch. Other settings may have worked, and switching from auto may not even be necessary at all when WEP is not used, we will all just have to test our favorite aircraft and find out what we like and what will let us do what we need to do....

http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=.../6/LiUWt3jR47A

Not a cool way to start the new day. Since it is early here WCT, I will overlook the remarks. You got data Thor (like Papa or Jumo are trying to present), post it. If not, kindly keep it to yourself.

Red - Answer A is right. B is incorrect for all three. F=ma is an ODE (ordinary differential equation). a=x'' simply indicates that acceleration is the second derivative of position, and is not the type of equation F=ma represents. It has order two (not Newton 2), and is a second order ODE with linear outcome. Its simple solution (assume non-harmonic) is the integration of the force/mass with relation to position X plus a constant. The chain rule is used. Mass is not 'mostly' assumed. It remains constant unless you indicate a variable mass problem (which we didnt).

Jumo and Papa - Quite busy since I have to host a visiting PI around La Jolla today. Beyond the limited scope at hand, I will kindly ask you this; Whose interpretation is the 'right one' ?

Whenever I pop into these type of forums, I am always greeted by the aviation book nuts. And they will pull up all types of esoteric diagrams and plots trying to argue that their view is the only and 'right' view, about how fast an airframe could fly, or how long, its boost could last, etc... Unlike engineering though (my profession), where the scientific method holds sway, there is no exact repeatable test (in 99.9999% of cases) since we dont have the unrestored warbird to give us the exact answer. In engineering we dont base our answers on what some shear test gave in 1944 gave for a certain sheet of metal, or hold that to be the one true answer. More deeply though, how certain are you that you have the definitive source when German aviation manual A says X and German aviation manual B says Y.

I am no aviation historian but I am always struck by the various accounts which often mutually disagree. One of the most interesting things (at least to me) in speaking with Capt. Holcomb on the phone, was when he indicated that the manuals they were required to know, should sometimes be disregarded, and that is something he learned later only as he got to his operational squadron. Further, I am not qualified to judge (to be honest, as I mentioned before, no developer for IL2 was a real WWII warbird pilot) who has the definitive 'right' flight model for a specific airframe. After looking at your (Papa's and Jumo's) data, I see strong points of overall historical accuracy, but also small differences. And this for me, is the wiggle room we appear to disagree over. While in broad strokes, I support new overheat models for IL2 (anything which adds realism to all the UFO planes, which for the past years I have had to duel is welcome), I do feel it is difficult to apply one or two simple algorithms to dozens of flyable airframes, and I still cannot find any evidence that planes on boost went into overheat in one combat climb.

So, to you Papa and Jumo, can you find direct evidence supporting the reduced flight model of the TA 152 H1 in 4.11 ?

When I do the quick flights on the Crimea map with auto pitch, I get:

Ta 152 H1 in 4.10.1

Top speed at sea level on full WEP at 110% = 570 kph

Ta 152 H1 in 4.11

Top speed " " " = 530 (and you cannot maintain that for long due to the overheat model)

You have resources (or know of) a great many aviation manuals (or so it would seem). Does the historical documentation support 4.11 or 4.10.1 ?

Now this is a base for discussion. You might want to add a couple of tracks while you are at it.

The rpm limits of the Ta 152H-1 are 3250 rpm at WEP. In dives, it had to be throttled back and the short term limit of 3300 rpm was not to be exceeded.

i did say earlier that all planes are a bit slower now. the 570kph (which was more or less what i could get out of the tempest in 4.10.1 has now dropped to 530 (ish)

spitfire 25 has dropped by about the same amount.

the LA7 doesnt seem to have been so heavily effected.

basicly i think we were all flying at peak speed before and we could abuse it because of the lack of accurate thermal moddeling. now max sustained speed is a lot slower than peak speed. i can still manage 570 for a short time, but i will overheat and have to back off again.

on the upside ive allready won a battle or two with the spit by blowing up his engine as he tried to chase me :)

The La7 and 185s are not that affected Shawn. And, that is my point about unfairly applied overheat algorithms. If the clown wagons keep going while I must continually break off with my P51 to drop pitch, rpms and throttle, is there evidence to support the super Russian planes in this aspect? So my simple question to the aviation history folks is:

Do the historical manuals support 4.10.1 or 4.11 ? And if so, please show us the goods.

Edit - I did see a reference a few days back that the TA 152 could indeed reach 570/580 kph at sea level but forgot to flag it. Anyone finds any documentation,one way or the other, post it.

The TA example above is also why balance is so important if the actual historical record is sketchy. Here is an example:

4.10.1 - I come up from making a boom pass on some guy and see a 185 M-71 approaching at my 10 o'clock with me in my Ta 152-H1. I put in a little coordinated turn, take an angled shot, and lets say I miss. So I continue flying past and move out of theater at about 570 kph. The 185 after he passes me, pulls to a quick hammerhead and reverses 180 degress to give chase, but he is already 1.8 km back by that time and though he can reach 580 kph level flight speed, I can reach ~ 570 or 575, it will be many minutes before he can catch me, and by that time , even in 4.10.1 he is in serious overheat, or I have made it back under my side's friendlies above, and he must break off or be shot down.

4.11 - Now the 185 M-71 can give chase, and do so at 570 kph for quite a bit before he reaches overheat. I continue to stay straight and run from him, but my speed gradually deteriorates to ~ 530 kph (to push any harder and my engine blows) and he catches me before I reach friendly lines or before his engine goes. I have no option, I must cool my engine, and I can do nothing to increase the separation distance faster than about 530 kph. I will be caught.

That is a game changer. It is a patch which hits BnZ planes hard (like the FW, the P51, the TA and Tempy) but leaves little restriction on the La7, 185s and to a lesser extent the Spits. Sure, I know... I know. Someone will say, come in 2000m even higher, or make sure you leave 2000m to dive away from, etc.... And usually I do, but that is why the overheat model must be corrected IMHO. Many will berate me for being of low IQ, ... a poor pilot, etc... but when you look past the venom, ... in actuality, I am a full real guy who prefers the P51 and TA above the other planes. Unless someone can produce authentic historical information indicating these large overheating effects for the TA and P51, but not for the La7 and 185, I have no option but to assume the overheat model is applied incorrectly. ... And should therefore be fixed.

Aviation history guys, ... is there any evidence out there to support the special overheat resistant abilities of the La7 and 185 that we have in 4.11 ? Or that show the quick overheat effects to the TA and P51 ?

So it is okay for you to take 4.11 to court without any of the things you demand?
You are the one in the community who is having the big problem fighting "clown wagons" on yours and other clown wagon servers and you started crying about it immediately after you saw you could not the way you were used to in the older patch with the throttle nailed.

If you have a problem with the official version of the sim, then get something to back up your allegations, YOU come up with data and manuals.

And if you can not figure out how to fly the IL2 flight sim in the wake of others who always have and are now then maybe you should take your name off that ridiculous self-aggrandizing "masters" list you are always bringing up?

I am no aviation historian, so I am asking you (or others) who appear to have done alot of reading, to verify for me if this proof exists or not. In what little I have read, I can see no firm evidence for the severe overheat model applied in 4.11.

To be honest, I am not having trouble. In 4.11, when I fight the clown wagons, I stay about 1000m higher in any BnZ attack than I did in 4.10.1 and I dive away if an La7 or 185 gets above me. With correct pitch, and just as Shaun noted, I usually get them to burn up their engine before I run into real trouble. I just dont agree with the overheat model.

Please for the love of God, drop the Masters List Jumo. That was two years back. Its been dead (thank the good lord) for a long time. Lets leave it dead. Your simply pissed because the Advisory Board evaluated you and none of the seven voted for you to ascend. Drop it.... for all our sakes. It is the real reason you are still pissed at me after all this time.

Really? you can't remember from page 3 of this thread? Who brought up what?

Sorry, I never heard of any masters list of yours at all until less than a week ago, that is an egotistic assumption of yours as usual, I certainly don't care what self-appointed authorities have to say about me or WWII aviation. The reason I never liked you is the same reason no one else does, which you will never be able to see for the same reason any mentally challenged person is not aware of themselves.....

Sighhhhh

If you would quit making silly little videos of you fighting AI controlled planes which any IQ 120 seven year old with two days training could defeat:

http://www.youtube.com/user/Jumoschwanz

(btw, you spend one half the video flying the FW less than 300m off the ground, this is not how a BnZ plane is to be used)

while you collect unemployment insurance at our benefit, you would realize that all the pilots I listed above (it is Tzon instead of TaZzu though) for potential feedback could.....

beat the living $%^! out of you.

I rest my case.

Gents, I attempted to start this day in this forum in a good mood with some actual data I have noticed about the Ta 152 H1 in patch 4.11. I can see it is going to be another day of personal attacks, so, I am signing off.

Take a look at the overheat algorithm Team D. It needs some work. As does the TA.

S! Gents.

In summary:

1:44 A.M

3:17 A.M.

3:47 A.M

5:02 A.M.

8:54 A.M.

4:56p.m.

(Good advice WD! ever hold it up to a mirror?)

5:04 p.m.

6:01p.m.

6:33pm

6:53 p.m

7:17 p.m

7:30pm

Pure comic gold......