Yes, fair point mate, but then again DX-11 isn't necessary, is it? So the misleading statement (which is completely ethical on a literal basis) still stands.

I think my last line sums it up. It is legit; just ethically it suggests towards inclusion which could easily mislead customers, as it clearly has done.
Not many people will dissect a game's cover art to determine what is actually included.

It says it here...

The Best of Technology for Ultimate Realism New 3D engine – Latest-gen graphics engine with DX10 and DX11 API support. Huge variety of photorealistic ground vehicles, buildings and other environmental elements recreate minute details of 1940s Europe.

Agreed

Not sure what you mean by necessary? As in you need DX 11 to run the game? Or not necessary to list it as supported?

Not really IMHO

To understand my point of view you need to understand what DX 11 API means

An application programming interface (API) is standard code (library, routines, data structures, protocols, etc) interface that software programs can use to communicate with each other. Therefore just because CoD is using DX 11 API for development does not make it a DX 11 game. Surly DX 11 has features that DX 10 does not, but at the same time DX 11 is backwards compatible with DX 10. So, it is smart for 1C to use the newest DX API, even though they may not be making use of some of the new DX 11 features that are not in DX 10. In that in the near future, they may find a DX 11 feature that they want to use and add in as a patch.

Put another way (layman) just because they use the DX 11 API, does not mean they are using exclusive DX 11 features

Only to those who do not realize that just because they are using the latest DX 11 API for development, does not mean they are making use of DX 11 exclusive features. All it means is the decided to use the latest and greatest DX 11 API for development.

Which is fine, but in the same breath just because they didn't read it before they bought it does not give them an excuse to beyach about it later

Great job by AoA. It's pretty obvious who in here understands how software is developed and who doesn't. You whiners might learn something if you actually read his posts.

Well said Aces :) Agreed on all points, other than the fact that the statement was/is misleading to those of us who have limited knowledge in these areas, and unless I had asked the opinion of someone as knowledgeable as yourself, I really would have believed the game was making use of DX-11 (as many others clearly have too). My remark on 'necessity' was in reference to DX-11 being needed to run the game.

This debate aside, it doesn't sugar-coat the issues surrounding release videos on portraying the game (in showing how the release was misleading), but I think we understand one-another better now.

S!

David, I don't always agree with you, but in this case you are spot on.

Ace - your interpretation concerning DX11 support is wrong. That statement from Oleg means exactly what it implies, that the game would use DX11 features, i.e. it was intended to be a DX11 game.

Luthier said shortly after release that they attempted a DX11 implementation but had to shelve it temporarily as it was too buggy. Presumably they have been concentrating on other features in the meantime and eventually we will get to see DX11 working in COD.

It never ceases to amaze me how people can adopt such a lawyer-like butchery of the English language in an attempt to prove they are right.

The confusion regarding DX11 implementation in the release publicity is down to the somewhat chaotic way that it was all handled - essentially marketing/publicity were a step or two behind the developers and were still touting a temporarily deprecated feature.

the bottom line is - game is released in alpha state; was unplayable on most machines, lacking proper FSAA (still is), with crap sounds, full screen missing, full video options, etc (not to mention the circus with epileptic filter)....we can talk about bugs and how sims are complicated etc....but if majority of folks had literally slideshows after the game was released.....and we still have serious performance issus (example, when the dust and other effects are near, when more planes are near down low etc.) then we have the right to be disappointed.

This is 100% correct.

All of which happened several months ago. It's long past time that people stopped whining about it.

That's 200% correct.

New 3D engine – Latest-gen graphics engine with DX10 and DX11 API support. Huge variety of photorealistic ground vehicles, buildings and other environmental elements recreate minute details of 1940s Europe.

That's the simple point, no subject for discussion.

Hardly..

But don't take my word for it kendo65!

Do a little research and you will see that I am right. In a nut shell DX11 provides something previous versions did not provide, or not fully provide. The key feature being what Microsoft calls feature levels

Knowing in advance that you and people like you are too lazy to actually do the leg work to research this I took the liberty of collecting the links and pertinent references for you in the following.. Enjoy (or chock on it, either way is fine by me)

http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/libr...(v=VS.85).aspx

http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/libr....aspx#Overview
Now after reading that, it is clear to all those who have a basic understanding of programing as to why 1C would choose to use the DX 11 API.

Your milage may vary kendo65

Bottom line is we got everything that was advertised and more

"We don't have AA in this picture because the PC used was old..."

Stop, please... :rolleyes:

Clearly you are confused as to the definition of API support.. Take a moment and read my last post with the Microsoft links that described what DX 11 API support provides.. Assuming you want to learn and not whine?

I admit, it is confusing.. But just because we are confused on some aspects does not mean 1C, UBI, STEAM cheated us out of something or fool us into something.

All this talk of DX 11 even forced me to do a little more research on the mater, and now it is clear as rain as to what 1C, UBI, STEAM meant by DX 11 API support. Turns out that not only does DX 11 provide more features that are not in DX 10, but DX 11 also provides something they call feature levels, basically a build in hardware auto detect of sorts that makes life much easier on the programing team.

Problem is most people here see DX 11 but they don't see the API after it and expect this game to be using DX features that are exclusive to DX 11. As in features not in DX 10. I think those who want to learn will see that now and correct themselves.. As for those that just want a reason to whine.. Well no amount of information is going to change what they think.

You are still wrong Aces - either willfully or through ignorance.

Any sensible, plain English interpretation of what is meant by 'DX11 game' or 'DX11 supported' is that specific DX 11 features will be used in the game. This is what was intended to happen with COD. It is what the developers were working on. It is what Oleg was referring to in the link.

None-implementation of any specifically DX11 features means the game is not currently DX11 in any reasonable meaning of the term - certainly for trade description and legal purposes I don't think any company would attempt to take the line that you seem to be suggesting.

Whether it uses feature levels to provide backwards compatibility with DX 9, 10 or 10.1 hardware or some previous means of doing so is immaterial.

As I noted above.. I think those who want to learn will see that now and correct themselves.. As for those that just want a reason to whine.. Well no amount of information is going to change what they think.

That is the CORRECT meaning of the term in this context - ie what Oleg meant in his reply.

You are just WRONG!

Hardly..

But you clearly are confusing DX11 with DX11 API support

Take a deep breath, count to 10 (not 11, pun intended) and read Microsofts definitioin of DX 11 API support

:)

I did read it...and unlike yourself I also understood it. Sorry but I've better things to do with my time.

Cheers

Your still not getting it are you?

Maybe this will help?

DX11 is not equal to DX11 API support.

Just because you are confused about that does not mean 1C, UBI, or STEAM cheated us out of something or tried to fool us into something.

With that said, allow me to try and drive this point home to you.. The following two quotes come from the same ubi website

Under the KEY FEATURES tab it points out the DX11 API is supported (see my previous post for what that means)

On that same page under the PC CONFIGURATION tab it points out that DX 9.0c compliant video cards are required, but DX 10 compliant cards are recommended.

Note that neither one says the game is a DX 11 game!

I hope that clears things up for you!

But I suspcet it wont in that you clearly strike me as someone that just wants and needs a reason to complain, I hope I am wrong! But thus far I think I have you pegged

and if you have a dx11 card ?

Here is what MS has to say wrt to your question

I don't work for Microsoft and I am not DirectX expert, but I write a fare amount of software where I work. And based on what I have read about DX11 API support.. The developer (in this case 1C) can use the DX 11 API for software development.. But that does not necessarily mean the game is a DX 11 game, as in making use of DX 11 features (like Shader Model 5.0 in DX 11 v.s. Shader Model 4.x in DX 10). Because the DX 11 API allows the developer to pick what 'level' they want to use. So, say Microsoft is having issues with some of the DX 11 features.. And as some have stated Luther even made a comment about 1C having issues with some DX 11 features. Using the DX 11 API, the developer can simply limit the support to say DX 10. Until Microsoft fixes the problems. Assuming that is the case and 1C used the DX 11 API to limit the feature level to DX 10, than..

If you have a DX 9.0c compliant card, CoD will run DX 9.0c features (downgrade to 9.0c)
If you have a DX 10.0 compliant card, CoD will run DX 10.0 features (uses 10)
If you have a DX 11.0 compliant card, CoD will run DX 10.0 features (downgrade to 10)

Does that clear it up?

S!

The common and proper way of programming games today is to enable DX11 features for gamers on Vista/W7 with a vidcard that supports DX11 while still support DX10/9.
Battlefield: Bad Company 2 and now BF3 are just two examples of this.

So reading that CloD has DX11 API support the natural thing is to think they built it the same way everyone does and not that it is just informative text saying they are programming CloD's "Latest-gen graphics engine" using DX11 APIs indicating that we might see some DX11 features some time in the future...if we're lucky.
I mean it's like blocking all gears in a car except for 1st and 2nd but still claim the car can do 150 mph.

Well if i do remember correctly full DX11 support was dropped right before release because of performance issues. So perhaps this is something that can be reincorporated at a later time once the issues are ironed out? Maybe this could be part of the "major graphic engine overhaul" that luthier mentioned. I guess we'll wait and see.

Yep.
http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showpos...7&postcount=36

I too believe that this >50% fps raise that Luthier is talking about has something to do with DX11 support. This would imply that some with older OS/HW won't experience that big of a raise though.

Nobody else is buying into this Ace of aces fool being some kind of expert are they? Surely you can all see through his Bull crap? Please tell me you can.:rolleyes:

It may be natural for the average person to 'think' that way..

But I think we all can agree that 1C, UBI, and STEAM is not responsable for what some people may think.

1C, UBI, and STEAM are only responsable for what the advertised.

And it should be clear to all now that just because some people here like you 'jumped' to that conclusion does not mean 1C, UBI, or STEAM cheated us out of something or tried to fool us into something.

I will say this, I am glad to see that you are open minded enough to not only admit you were wrong, but open minded enough to read and learn what API support means. So a big S for you!

Such a patronising XXXXXXXXX

+1000

He's a sick person, we need to understand... :rolleyes:

and sick...probabaly first one here sick for real..its not even funny any more....

EDIT: LOL Lebisomem was faster..

Well I will get a ban for calling him that but it will be worth it.... byeeee.

LOL!
You can always spot the guy who is upset and has absolutely nothing to back up his claims.

How you ask?

Typical troll attack the messenger tactics and ignore the message tatics

They are easy to spot, first thing to notice is they didn't quote anything I actually said, let alone provide anything to the contradict (link, book reference, etc) what I said

Thus all they are left with is to attack me personal, because they know they can not attack the message.

LOL

You can always spot the guy who is upset and has absolutely nothing to back up his claims.

How you ask?

Typical troll attack the messenger tactics and ignore the message tatics

They are easy to spot, first thing to notice is they didn't quote anything I actually said, let alone provide anything to the contradict (link, book reference, etc) what I said

Thus all they are left with is to attack me personal, because they know they can not attack the message.

LOL!

You can always spot the guy who is upset and has absolutely nothing to back up his claims.

How you ask?

Typical troll attack the messenger tactics and ignore the message tatics

They are easy to spot, first thing to notice is they didn't quote anything I actually said, let alone provide anything to the contradict (link, book reference, etc) what I said

Thus all they are left with is to attack me personal, because they know they can not attack the message.

mesage is "Im sick help me!"

LOL!

You can always spot the guy who is upset and has absolutely nothing to back up his claims.

How you ask?

Easy!

First thing to notice is they didn't quote anything I actually said, let alone refute any of the information I provided from Microsoft one the definition of what DX 11 API support means

But that does not stop him from attacking me personally!

Why?

Well because he knows I am right and that upsets him to the point that he feels he has to

That and he knows that any attempt to refute me or any of the info I provided would only further prove how right I am

So instead he trys to take the focus off him being wrong by attacking me personaly hoping I will respond in kind and thus turn this into a flame fest. Typical troll tatics!

Which only goes to prove that there are two types of people in this world

1) Someone who can admit they were wrong
2) Someone who can NOT admit they were wrong

He being the latter

Best post ever! :-P

LOL!

You can always spot the guy who is upset and has absolutely nothing to back up his argument.

How you ask?

Easy!

Notice is he didn't quote let alone refute anything I actually said wrt Microsoft definition of what DX 11 API support means.

That is to say he didn't provide anything to the contrary (link, book reference, etc) to contradict what I said.

Why?

Well because he knows I am right!

And he also knows that any attempt his part to try and 'spin it' will only prove how empty his argument are and how wrong he is.

Which leaves him with only one way out.

Kill the messenger!

Because he knows he can not attack the message!

His goal (hope) being I will respond in kind and turn this into a flame feast to take the focus off the fact that he is wrong.

Typical troll tactics!

Which only goes to prove that there are two types of people in this world

1) People who are adult enough to admit they were wrong
2) People who are NOT adult enough to admit they were wrong

He being the latter

Someone is projecting.

Wont spend $1 on another one of their games unless COD is fixed to the highest level it can be through patches and we get the game we payed for. I am not willing to pay them for the game and hope the community fixes it, thats some bs.

You guys missed the point...

We have a great air combat flight sim engine, with good content. We have a highly flexible FMB...

"Community fixes it"? YOU can do a lot of missions in FMB! YOU can do ASAP a lot of things with this sim engine!

I'm amazed how people still not seeing this... "Pay them for the game"... Yes, we payed and we received this great sim.

I fly modded IL-2 1946 almost in MP and modded arenas. CloD engine to me is a dream! :cool:

LoBiSoMeM,

with this pov i really don't understand why you don't side with AoA.

I fail to see, why you think you have to oppose him, is it personal?

It seems this slug-fest has only escalated about some really minor differences.

Yep, and nothing to do with the OP's question. Which as we all know will not get answered.

Just FYI, the original topic!
 

For those who don't want to read all pages, the original topic!

well, im guessing that will be like forgotten battles, a stand alone, who incluedes all off cod + new expansion, not comaptible with COD.

If it includes all of CoD, how can it be incompatible with CoD???

Isn't every patch incompatible with previous versions?

if tree, or adonys, or one of the other so called "whiners" (good guys) had posted the original post, this thread would now be full of "stop whining and just play the new patch they released, let them get on with their work, it will be released when its ready, they will give us information when they can, they are too busy to answer right now"

krupi, stop f*cking whining and give luthier a break, dont over analyze what he says, your just looking for something to whine about.

you and Ace should not adobt the child...

@Repent - agree with you but only in one matter...no point in asking Luthier anything because hes too busy...although they need a PR guy and then we would have a proper communication...

thats how FB worked. a whole game pretty much as if il2 was just a beta test.

The difference is in the definition ;)

It won't be a new game, just a big, paid for, patch. :D

You don't understand...

I love this sim, i'm follow it's development as any other IL-2 series fanboy.

But DirectX11 support was advertised, we are fooled with the "we don't have AA in this screenshot because it's an old PC" and other things, and we received a BROKEN and INCOMPLETE software in release.

I can't just forget that. I'm just saying that. ;)

no there is a differnece. FB was like this

il2 was out.

Fb was out it incldued all off content of il2 + FB content. People who had il2 had to buy FB, and people who bought FB where up to date. It was like buy a sequel who had all the previous stuff in it too.

Dont confuse this with PF wich was a stand alone who could be merged.

It's not that easy. A court of law might as well find that the marketing of CloD in this aspect is deceitful/fallacious.
Like I already mentioned common practice is to not only support APIs (weird wording) but also offer the features of the supported APIs.

DX10 was released in 2006 and saying that CloD has the "Latest-gen graphics engine" that utilize "the best of technology for ultimate realism" when all it does is using an over 5 years old technology, that is horsesh!t in it's purest form.
But hey, CloD supports some new APIs. Great!!


And lets not forget all the other broken stuff like AI, radio comms, inverted controls, wrong DM/FM, no SLI support, etc etc.
Sure, it wasn't printed on the box that it would work so they're in the clear but never the less they made us believe we would get a working game but sold us something different.

This community is legendary and built out of a fine group of followers who love the IL-2 series (me included). No wonder people are p!$$ed when Ubi/1C sells them a broken game 4 years after announced release and then disappears.


Listen, I've blocked you and have no interest in communicating with you but I think this is an important issue which is why I reply to your post for others to read.
You recognize me for having an open mind unfortunately I have no hope that you'll drop your ignorant and patronizing attitude. People like you don't change.

+1

As said before, dx11 support is different from featuring dx11 effects.

But that is how one WANTS to interpret! You can accept it or you can get riled up about it, to no avail, btw.

But anyway, why get so riled about things of the past? It's history, not changeable.

It is never wise to hold grudges too long, always leading to problems and escalations out of proportion.

As almost everybody agrees atm we have a working, in no way perfect, sim here, still filling us with great expectations.

So, let us unite our voices for a better future. (gosh, doesn't that sound soupy?)

I dont think Tree will be asking anything for a long while he's been banned again, which kind of illustrates your point, out of all the name calling Tree is the only one to get a ban. lol :grin:

I think that there has been a really confused interpretation of exactly what is meant by that phrase DX11 API used in the marketing material.

Aces has interpreted it to mean that the devs were using the DX11 API but never intended to include any DX11 features with the game. But any version of DX can be referred to as an API and the common interpretation of stating that DX 11 APi supported OR DX10 API supported - in the context of communication with the public/potential customers IS exactly as people interpreted it - i.e. they were planning to include DX11 features. (this is stated by Oleg in the supplied link AND by Luthier explicitly in the other link). There is really no need for further confusion on all this.

I'm also not pushing this to criticise the game, but as Lobisomem has said - the truth is the truth. Aces has got the wrong end of the stick, and him shouting louder than everyone else should not be allowed to dictate what is viewed as truth.

As you say above no company is going to lay themselves open to potential legal redress by deliberately playing word games of that type. The situation we ended up with is due to technical difficulties in getting the planned DX11 feature implementation to work and snafued communication with marketing dept.

Sorry Robtek. This is a red herring and a misinterpretation.

DX11 support IS exactly the same in the context in which it is used here as 'featuring DX11 effects'.

Yes, it's simple, let's move on!

Dx11 and Dx10.1 support is planned for future patches, obviously. To gain almost 50% in performance without losing visual quality MG need to use all DirectX potential.

Misinterpretation by whom? I'd say its you, but then : however.

Yeah, in retrospect that was a deliberate lie wasn't it. Considering they still haven't got that working yet. Kind of dissapointing to see ones heroes exposed so badly.

:(

with rose tinted glasses you can make anything mean anything

The color of the glasses has nothing to do with that, being that rose or grey!

Let's move on. Now the sim is amazing, even with bugs or missing key features. It's MUCH bettere than any old IL-2 titles, modded or not. Let's face the truth!

[youtube]s-x31PBfvxo[/youtube]
[youtube]OxkXGmKR-uQ[/youtube]

And the final kick in the head of "my modded IL-2 1946 looks like IL-2 Cliffs ofDoverwithmuchmorecontentandrunsgreatandisstablei nmymodestrig...":

[youtube]qgFGOFuPSKw[/youtube]

This new sim is amazing, we have great graphics, more complex engine management, damage model, flight model. We have better terrain, we have "MDS" incorporated, we have "Coop-Dogfight" servers at the same time, we have multicrew, missions loaded into missions, scripts...

We have all we need to assure that this sim engine will last a long time!

I'm happy.

We have better terrain, but it is still largely terrible. Beta 1 was a brilliant step forward. England in the current patch looks like a cold, frosty morning, seen through the eyes of someone on an acid trip.

Lobi, your trackIR seems very smooth, and your views zoom in and out. How did you set it up? Is there a TrackIR profile you could make available? :)

Terrain = elevation data, 3d objects, vegetation, texture layers.

I'm not looking at the sim with your sometimes whinner "gamer" eyes, philip... I don't care if MG modeled "England" with wrong shade or someting, i see the graphics engine potential regards textures, objects, etc. We'll can edit textures with map SDK.

We all know that you dislike the colours like a broken record. You don't need to point that AGAIN! ;)

I use FreeTrack! Better and cheaper than NP hardware/software. Maybe with my videos people finally can see that! :-P

Smooth zoom - JoyToKey, mouse emulation and "Hold To Adjust FOV". Search the forum, we have some posts teaching how to do. ;)

Agree on all points but terrain could look even better in DX10 (and well get collision model for trees). It will come with time. And when they fix all the performance bugs (slowdowns when dust is around etc.) and when they improve graphic engine (perfromance wise) CLOD will rock.

'gamer'? It's a simulation mate! Colours and representation are all relevent! So you're clearly the 'gamer' in this regard :rolleyes: What a bloody stupid statement from you.
Yes, I have gone on about it, but I won't stop until I see some form of change. I'm sorry mate but I only want this game to improve, and ATM I don't think the team have the knowledge to get all aspects of the sim right.
The technical details are one thing; immersion is another, and this sim is not an immersive representation of the BoB. I live in blighty; have flown over blighty. To me it all matters, whether colours seem rather stupid to you or not. I don't care that you don't care. This sim is made for the community: not for Lobi.

A question for the mods:
Why is this A o A not banned? He is much more abusive than Tree?

Is he?

really?

I haven't seen him using swear-words.

For all the aggression he earns, he is remarkably calm.

BTW Ace of Aces is Tagert

That should be an instant ban then. A complete troll at the ubi forum, and perma banned a long time ago for trouble making.

Trolls don't need to swear, as you very well know (not calling you a troll BTW) Just wind people up enough so they say something and get banned. I'm surprised that people still fall for it.
This forum needs a sort out, and not just on one side.

that explains everything...

poor nancy.

Anyone who calls themselves "Ace of Aces".....

rofl

One things for sure, the place has just taken a major dive, but thats probably how he likes it.
They should rename the forum to IL-2 Sturmovik: CWoS...

Funny you should use that particular quote.

Here's another, emphasis is mine:

those that came from the ubizoo, will have read the 'poor nancy' line more times than they care to remember........

Nobody will be banned outa here, when he is such a selfless supporter of the Great Leader and his ideas. :twisted:

Yeah they called it the Zoo for a reason.

http://img821.imageshack.us/img821/3828/ignoreh.jpg

Until the moderators become a little bit more balanced

funny, this place reminds me much more of the zoo, than the zoo does now, lol.

That's because all the animals came here! :grin:

well, at least one fruitbat did!

The thing is he's not. He probably doesn't even own CoD, just saw what this place was like and came here for the fishing.

I don't know this Tagert-guy or if he is AoA, but the things AoA pointed out regarding dx11 are still standing, nobody posted anything to prove them wrong.

So is he a troll and correct, or what?

Or is it internet - bullying what we see here, because someone pointed and said: Witch!

funny thing is that im flying this sim every night and reporting bugs to devs...and what he does?....
I never saw Ace of Creeps online....probably he never bought CLOD....

He does indeed, and is an accomplished pilot as well.

Look, Ace's style may seem abrasive, but if he was posting about "how we all got ripped off by Oleg, 1C or the tooth fairy", you all would be patting him on the back.

He properly explained what the DX11 API is, how it's used in the sim, and how there is nothing factually wrong with anything written by 1C or Oleg. So far all every one on the other side have done is post about their opinion, feeling, interpretation/misinterpretation of what was "promised".

Cheers.

then again he said I was wrong when I told him the sim was released in alpha state, that was unplayable on most machines, lacking proper AA etc....and all that is true...

Good news then El, another sale is always welcome. Luckily he is in another time zone, so I will never see him online. Never did it il2.
Would I pat anyone on the back? No. And you know what they say about opinions. Everyone has one. ;)

really who cares what he thinks....i wont feed the c.... anymore

+1

ACE-OF-ACES even! ;)

Probably a lot of truth in that!

That is the problem people like me face when ever we post the FACTS in oposition to the FICTION. The folks on the FICTION side are always going to be upset.

Well I can not take the credit for that, this is one case where Microsoft actually did a good job in their documentation. Thus all I had to do was cut-n-paste what any of the nay-sayers could have found on the Microsoft website themselves, had they actually to the 5 to 10 mins to goggle it

That I did do! ;)

Agreed 100%