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Wolf_Rider 08-15-2011 05:20 AM

you have me at a bit of a loss there andyjwest... get over what?

BadAim 08-15-2011 05:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndyJWest (Post 323786)
...and when any debate about crime, anywhere on the internet, ends up regurgitating the endless obsession of US politics with guns, there is boredom. There is more to life than shooting people. Get over it...

And when there is any chance for you to regurgitate your endless obsession with political correctness, Andy, you take it. Double standard much?

unreasonable 08-15-2011 05:44 AM

Note how some US contributors to this thread have changed the argument (and I have summarised rather than respond to specific posts because there are so many):

- The main point at issue has been whether restrictive gun laws, in the UK, are, on balance, a good thing, given the context of the recent youth riots.

- Generally US contributors have said that the UK laws are not a good thing, since they mean that good citizens are limited in their ability to defend themselves against bad citizens, or against tyrannical government.

- Generally UK contributors have said that the UK laws are a good thing, since they prefer to be unarmed, which is an increasingly untenable position in an armed society, and they believe that the threats of crime and tyranny are better addressed through the normal workings of constitutional monarchy.

So far so reasonable.....

- There has been no comment from Euro contributors (that I have noticed), about the right of US citizens to decide their own gun laws, own guns in the US, or the desirability or feasibility of the US moving to a gun law system similar to that of the UK.

- In contrast, some US contributors have held up the specific premises of the US political system as though they were universal truths: in particular the premises that disarming the people must necessarily lead to tyranny, and that democracy is always just mob rule.

In my view this point of view fails to take into account the specific history, culture and background of different societies. Just because something is "self-evident" to you, it does not make it "self-evident" to everyone else, or for that matter " a fact". But at least these issue should be capable of being addressed by rational discourse with a minimum of rhetoric.

- And yet some US contributors (if the cap fits, wear it) have reacted angrily as though their own rights are under attack in their own country, and resorted to extraordinary vitriol, questioning the age, motivations, courage and and knowledge of those voicing contrary views through a barrage of ad hominem attacks and smears by association. Shame on you! :mad:

ruggbutt 08-15-2011 06:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by unreasonable (Post 323793)
- And yet some US contributors (if the cap fits, wear it) have reacted angrily as though their own rights are under attack in their own country................Shame on you!

What hasn't been discussed and I feel is every bit as important is the surveillance the British people are under. You can't walk 20 feet w/out government cameras watching..............IMHO that's even worse than them being unarmed. Brits can't be trusted, their government's actions say this with it's actions. There's a huge difference in our two cultures but I have to agree that the England of two decades ago isn't the same country. The people seem more "beat down". That was my impression anyway.

AndyJWest 08-15-2011 06:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadAim (Post 323789)
And when there is any chance for you to regurgitate your endless obsession with political correctness, Andy, you take it. Double standard much?

I was unaware that not being obsessed with shooting people was anything to do with political correctness. I'd assumed that it was instead entirely normal. Evidently I was wrong...

baronWastelan 08-15-2011 06:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II (Post 323722)
..as I said, you must be 12, both because of your infantile sense of humour and because you can't even spell your nickname properly.. it's vengeance, not vengeanze, genius..

The name Vengeanze has been around since the beginning, and as an elder deserves our respect, irregardless of his misguided ideals. I remember him from the pre-FB days.

Sternjaeger II 08-15-2011 07:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MD_Titus (Post 323728)
*facepalm*

no it's not. similarly armour is what knights wear, football is played with a round ball, and you're meant to drive on the left.

dude, go back there if you want to own a shedload of firearms. if i want to smoke pot all day i'll move to holland. if i wanted to be teetotal i'd move to the UAE.

Another BNP advocate.. sorry, I need to be here and contribute to your welfare society by offering my specialised work skills, paying taxes also to pay a lot of our fellow citizen who live off the state.. I dunno if this "you don't like it? You go back where you came from!" is because of the keyboard hero syndrome or because you really think so, well if you do you're not thinking in a democratic way. Where do you live exactly? In the countryside or in a big city? Pot is all over the place, fortunately illegal firearms aren't.

Again, I can still own and shoot most firearms here, so I don't see what you're on about :confused:


Quote:

also, ftr, the politicians acted after people with licensed firearms went mental and killed dozens of people. this is when you could own firearms if you wanted, so you can't even say that is why people died - because no one else was armed to intervene.
"people that went mental" was 4 cases in god knows how many years, the fault is not only of the killers, but of the system with which you assign licenses here, there is not a proper psychological assessment. After it happened now the Police shows up at your place and checks on you and the way you store your firearms. It's always after that they adjust things, there is no pro-active thinking. As for why nobody else intervened, read about the scenarios and times when this was done, don't blurt out sentences that you think will go in favour of your argument.

Again, another uninformed sheep that wants to win an argument with nothing.

Quote:

hmm.

not sure you're quite aware of the changes tbh.

it used to be that you could defend yourself with whatever came to hand, and as long as they a. didn't have their back to you fleeing, and b. you hadn't ejected them from your property and then gone back inside for the first thing that came to hand. if you either killed or injured them, and neither a. nor b. was the case, it was classed as self defence.

now you can have a baseball bat or whatever by your bed with the express purpose of defending yourself. a. and b. still apply.
nope, you would get arrested if you killed the guy or wounded him (cos yes, he could sue you for assault and say "I entered cos the door was open"), again, read your things better. Remember the Indian family in Birmingham who attacked the intruder with a cricket bat?
Quote:

it is something that happened 70 years ago which we recreate with pixels. not sure quite what your point is.
there you go, denial. Why you think they're putting age ratings on games? Do you think it's morally correct to play games about crime? Or let children play with it? You need to be able to discern from reality and fiction, but some people cant, getting more and more de-sensibilised in front of death and destruction.
Think of GTA series, is that a "good" game? And what if they made a game about rape or paedophilia? would that be ok cos it's only pixels? It should, since you think that homicide is ok if it's a videogame..

Quote:

seems you're off on it as well. the british public called for handguns and assault weapons to be banned. democracy in action, pretty much.
the British public was brainwashed cos it was convenient to the Government. You really don't get it do you? They don't trust you, they don't want you to be armed, there's cameras everywhere, but they're not there to prevent crime, they're there to gather evidence. It's all an illusion, and the unpredictability of the recent riots shows what could happen.
Quote:

you have a right to exercise your hobbies where they do not contravene the law, nor spirit of the law of the land.
My hobbies don't contravene the law nor the spirit of the country, but then we're talking about a country where regularly some extremists burn poppies (symbol of all the fallen soldiers here in the UK) and your flags on the streets and you don't do anything about it.. it really boggles my mind!
Quote:

and then to cap it all you start calling people 12 year olds, whilst simultaneously missing the difference between playing make believe pew pew computer games... and actually shooting someone dead.

jesus.

given your display here, i'm damn glad they restrict your access to firearms.
You, being raised as a selfish individual who follows the flock, think there's no difference between the message given by a videogame and real life, because it's convenient to you, just like the way people get driving licenses here, it's a case of "hey, I need a car" not "hey, driving a car is a responsibility, maybe we should be stricter about it"..

Uh and btw sorry to disappoint, I still have access to firearms, and potentially I could bring most of my own collection here too, if you're not happy about it, talk to your Government..

Sternjaeger II 08-15-2011 07:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndyJWest (Post 323801)
I was unaware that not being obsessed with shooting people was anything to do with political correctness. I'd assumed that it was instead entirely normal. Evidently I was wrong...

you watched far too much Hollywood stuff man. Why you have this fixed idea that if you want to own a gun is just cos you want to shoot someone?! :confused:

Sternjaeger II 08-15-2011 07:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by baronWastelan (Post 323808)
The name Vengeanze has been around since the beginning, and as an elder deserves our respect, irregardless of his misguided ideals. I remember him from the pre-FB days.

well I've been around since the beginning of IL-2 and I don't see why someone else should mock my nickname, not cos I'm offended, I just don't understand what is the point in this conversation. It's very childish me thinks..

drewpee 08-15-2011 08:08 AM

Fact, the more guns the more people get killed.

London riots were shocking but I find it incredible that so few were injured or killed.

Vengeanze 08-15-2011 08:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II (Post 323820)
well I've been around since the beginning of IL-2 and I don't see why someone else should mock my nickname, not cos I'm offended, I just don't understand what is the point in this conversation. It's very childish me thinks..

Sorry 'bout that. My intention was to bring a bit of humour in and not to ridicule.

Sternjaeger II 08-15-2011 08:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drewpee (Post 323824)
Fact, the more guns the more people get killed.

London riots were shocking but I find it incredible that so few were injured or killed.

that's a bit of a generic fact man, according to that theory states like Arizona and Texas should be deserted wastelands..

What was shocking to me about the riots is seeing that they were allowed to carry on for DAYS, and mind you, I'm not blaming the cops on the streets, cos they have no support or adequate directives from the chain of command, it's the system that is utterly inadequate.

Sternjaeger II 08-15-2011 08:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vengeanze (Post 323827)
Sorry 'bout that. My intention was to bring a bit of humour in and not to ridicule.

it's ok, it's just not the way I think, I agree we need to loosen the spirit a bit, but there are other ways to do it. No hard feelings mate :)

Sternjaeger II 08-15-2011 08:31 AM

it's surprising btw how the ones without firearms are way more violent and offensive than the armed ones, tells a lot about the spirits really..

Vengeanze 08-15-2011 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ElAurens (Post 323765)
Apologies, I thought you were from the UK, didn't look at the top to see where you are from. And Brits, I do like your country, I've been there long ago (1972) and totally fell for the place, but I probably would not recognise it now.

I still wonder why you feel freedom as granted in our Constitution is out of date though? Times may change but basic human rights do not.

That's why we tossed Mad King George and his rented German thugs out in the first place.

We all have made our choices, and we all have the right to keep them as we see fit. Europeans are used to living in societies where power is exercized from the top down, because of centuries of conditioning being ruled by kings.

We rejected that right from the start and are used to power deriving from the people, and having founding fathers that understood that protecting the people from their government is the single most important aspect of civil life.

But enough of this banter, time for something completely different.

Bad spelling, posts about swedish bikiniteam and polarbears, socialist pov. And I thought I really stood out as a swede. :-D

2nd amendment is not about freedom as a hole but freedom to bear firearms. A major difference there. When talking to pro-guns I get the feeling that they think I want to severely limit their freedom which is totally wrong - just a tiny bit of it. ;-)
Reason I highlight the year the 2nd amendment was adopted is because life was different back then. People needed guns to hunt and protect them selfs from wild animals plus that the lawenforcement system was more or less non existing compared to today.
I totally support the right to bear arms in 1791 and actually I support it for people who live lifes similar to back then (like some distant places like Alaska). However, I can't see the need for a gun when living uptown Dallas (as an example).

AndyJWest 08-15-2011 08:41 AM

Sternjaeger II, you really don't have the faintest clue what you are talking about. Troll elsewhere.

Vengeanze 08-15-2011 08:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II (Post 323831)
it's surprising btw how the ones without firearms are way more violent and offensive than the armed ones, tells a lot about the spirits really..

Well, I can't vent myself on the range so I do it on the Internet. :-D

Glad to see the spirit of the old PL coming back. I predict Nearmiss will get his hands full shortly. :-D

Sternjaeger II 08-15-2011 08:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndyJWest (Post 323835)
Sternjaeger II, you really don't have the faintest clue what you are talking about. Troll elsewhere.

Well fortunately there's people like yourself that can enlighten us poor imbeciles on what's right and wrong.. I, unlike you, motivate my statements with suitable examples, you don't. You remind me of a certain other forum member that was banned recently and adopted your same style.. you, sir, are the troll here.

Hood 08-15-2011 09:11 AM

So:

US - guns are good because you can defend yourself plus it's a right and you don't want to let that right go because that's giving in to the government. High gun crime but less petty crime per capita.

UK - guns are bad but you pretty much never need to defend yourself. Most people have never owned guns or been involved with or threatened with them so don't really mind laws against them as it isn't a big deal. Not a lot of gun crime but more petty crime.

Italy - same as the US with minor differences. Less gun and petty crime.

To summarise I've looked at various websites with various stats. I have no idea if they're correct or not and I can't bother quoting them as everyone can look themselves. For the US I have no doubt that gun crime in some areas is high and in others non existent. You can't really consider the US as in many ways it is 50 different countries.

What was suprising is that per capita Sweden and Switzerland came out quite high up, though with small populations any gun crime will bump the figures up.

And despite the tragedy of Norway and its currently bad gun crime rating (and just typing that makes me curse myself for almost trivialising the tragedy) it is a fantastic beautiful place with friendly, generous and great people; it just has its share of malcontents or lunatics. Just like everywhere else really.

Anyway, this started off about the UK riots. They're done and dusted now and we won't see them again for a long time. Can we shoot this thread in the head?

Hood

Vengeanze 08-15-2011 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hood (Post 323846)
What was suprising is that per capita Sweden and Switzerland came out quite high up, though with small populations any gun crime will bump the figures up.

That's another interesting aspect. Most shootings here are done by organised crime having some disputes like HA fighting Bandidos or russian mafia killing off some ukranian mafia.
Very seldom are the victims innocent.
Instead we're going for world domination by selling furnitures with hidden intelligence in em.

Hood 08-15-2011 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vengeanze (Post 323849)
That's another interesting aspect. Most shootings here are done by organised crime having some disputes like HA fighting Bandidos or russian mafia killing off some ukranian mafia.
Very seldom are the victims innocent.
Instead we're going for world domination by selling furnitures with hidden intelligence in em.

Hehe I thought the furniture was designed to make people feel stupid trying to put it together?

Sternjaeger II 08-15-2011 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hood (Post 323846)
So:

US - guns are good because you can defend yourself plus it's a right and you don't want to let that right go because that's giving in to the government. High gun crime but less petty crime per capita.

UK - guns are bad but you pretty much never need to defend yourself. Most people have never owned guns or been involved with or threatened with them so don't really mind laws against them as it isn't a big deal. Not a lot of gun crime but more petty crime.

Italy - same as the US with minor differences. Less gun and petty crime.

unfortunately that's not the case. Italy has the same rules for firearms like most of Europe, but crime is still there, this to show that guns and crime are not necessarily linked. It's important to identify what kind of crime we're talking about though. Example: mob gangs shooting at each other? Their issue, they do it regularly, problem is that sometimes innocent bystanders get in the way, not always, but it happened. The problem is that you can't eradicate that kind of crime easily, it's not like you go to the local Don Corleone, knock at their door and say "look, from now on no guns, only bar fights, ok?" .

We also have a lot of burglary happening, mostly done by desperate immigrants and low life scum. There have been cases in northern Italy where whole families were tied, beaten and in some cases raped while they were robbing their house, something a la Clockwork Orange. Now after that experience, how can you tell the victims "no need to arm yourselves"? Police can't be everywhere all the time, it's a fact.

And yes, there are the random individuals that shoot themselves and/or the family, but killing crime is mostly done by other means, and knives are still often the weapon of choice, cos they're there and easy to use in a raptus. Shall we ban knives from households? :rolleyes:

As someone else said, guns are just tools, which can also be used to stop and prevent crime.

Example: if I walk on a road and see an armed police officer, I will think twice before getting into the shop and robbing it, because if I do it and get out, I will likely get my a** shot. If I'm in the same situation and see an unarmed police officer, I will be more tempted, cos I can leg it. Fighting crime needs to be an uneven and unfair one, police needs to be stronger than the average criminal, otherwise it's just a farse.

unreasonable 08-15-2011 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ruggbutt (Post 323798)
What hasn't been discussed and I feel is every bit as important is the surveillance the British people are under. You can't walk 20 feet w/out government cameras watching..............IMHO that's even worse than them being unarmed. Brits can't be trusted, their government's actions say this with it's actions. There's a huge difference in our two cultures but I have to agree that the England of two decades ago isn't the same country. The people seem more "beat down". That was my impression anyway.

I agree fully - I only go back to the UK for a few days every couple of years these days, but when I meet family and friends they are often very angry about constant surveillance. Most of them seem to think it has become widespread because the police and local authorities use it as a stealth-tax mechanism. The feeling is that any minor transgression by a member of the largely law abiding middle classes is criminalized and followed up with full bureaucratic efficiency, while the real criminals are largely left alone since dealing with them is difficult and expensive. I do not remember anyone, however, suggesting that the answer is to arm the citizenry.

Having just watched the PM's speech on the telly, I get the impression that Mr Cameron is trying to tap into that mood and attempt a turn around in the state of British society. I wish him all the best, but suspect that the established forces defending the status quo will be too strong.:(

Wolf_Rider 08-15-2011 10:17 AM

Linking crime and guns... well, all banning (another prohibition) guns does, is to make them more expensive on a blackmarket and give the owners a status.

Gangs still do drive-by attacks in countries where guns are banned.

Sternjaeger II 08-15-2011 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by unreasonable (Post 323867)
I agree fully - I only go back to the UK for a few days every couple of years these days, but when I meet family and friends they are often very angry about constant surveillance. Most of them seem to think it has become widespread because the police and local authorities use it as a stealth-tax mechanism. The feeling is that any minor transgression by a member of the largely law abiding middle classes is criminalized and followed up with full bureaucratic efficiency, while the real criminals are largely left alone since dealing with them is difficult and expensive. I do not remember anyone, however, suggesting that the answer is to arm the citizenry.

Having just watched the PM's speech on the telly, I get the impression that Mr Cameron is trying to tap into that mood and attempt a turn around in the state of British society. I wish him all the best, but suspect that the established forces defending the status quo will be too strong.:(

that's exactly the spirit unfortunately. Heck, there's vans that go around with cameras to check on who paid road taxes or not! The approach they use is not even intelligent! You know how much time and efforts police forces put into "fighting" against people that drive uninsured and with no road tax paid? It's ridiculous that with the amount of technology we have nowadays we still have this problem, and if you get hit by one of these irresponsible scum your insurance won't even cover for it!

I mean, what's the limit of crap one can get before rebelling? It's insane.

The answer is not to arm the citizens, but to re-design the police forces around the needs of a modern society. The right to have firearms should have nothing to do with public order.

Sternjaeger II 08-15-2011 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by winny (Post 323756)
Democracy is about majority. I don't know of any real major opposition to the current UK gun laws. It's a minority that are affected by it.

uh, that's a safe assumption: you're basically saying that the majority is right. I'm sure you might have heard of Nazi Germany at some point in your life.. I'm surprised I'm even discussing the sense of democracy really, it's obvious I give people's education for granted..

Quote:

Anyway this isn't an argument about democracy, it's about guns. (you keep wandering off..) TV, Jordan..? again you're in a minority, both are hugely popular (I don't understand why either).
I wander off to give you examples that are more tangible, since you never had a gun or know what it entitles to own/operate one. The fact that Jordan & Co. are popular tells a lot about the cultural level of this country. They're hugely popular among working class, or "chavs" as you like saying here. So if chavs are the majority, shall we leave the ruling of the country in their hands? Let's change the Union Jack to a Burberry one, innit blud? :rolleyes:

Quote:

Like I said, I've come to a decision, I'm happy with the current laws.
That's good for you, but in a democracy, even minorities have their right to express their opinion. You're thinking more along the lines of an enlightened regime, which is what we're living in at the moment.

Quote:

I'm 37 by the way.. I told you to shut up because you were being rude..Grow up. I don't agree with you. So what?
..what are you supposed to mean with that? Is it another case of "I don't know how to answer so I'll shout them to STFU". My dear keyboard hero, there was a time when you would be able to make such aggressive statements, bear the consequences of it (most likely a broken nose), then go home and learn from it. Nowadays you'd probably call the police and report the aggression, or do it from a pc, where you know you're safe and can get the worst out with no consequences. You're the frustrated individual, not me. I can live in a world of guns and know how to behave/handle them, you can't simply cos you've been told it's bad (unless it's Northern Ireland, or Afghanistan, or Iraq) and obey like a good sheep.

Quote:

Start a movement.. see how much support you get..
I don't need to, I'm fine with the possibilities I'm given at the moment.
Once again, your beloved government just had the courage to propose to shut down social networks in case other riots happen.. don't you really see what they're trying to do to your freedom?? :confused:

unreasonable 08-15-2011 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II (Post 323873)
The answer is not to arm the citizens, but to re-design the police forces around the needs of a modern society. The right to have firearms should have nothing to do with public order.

I am so happy we have found something that we can agree on! :-D

(Unless you are just being satirical :confused:)

Sternjaeger II 08-15-2011 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by unreasonable (Post 323880)
I am so happy we have found something that we can agree on! :-D

(Unless you are just being satirical :confused:)

I wasn't man, I really mean it. It's obvious that there's something broken in the system and that we all want to live in a safer society (we're not the SPECTRE), it's that we're trying to do it from different approaches.

The right to have a firearm (if deemed suitable for it by a competent panel) should be there regardless of your belief/interest in firearms.

Depriving citizens of their rights won't make a society safer,it will only boost crime, see what happened with proibitionism. What really scares me is that the Orwellian view of modern society is becoming a sad reality in Britain: they don't want you to think, they give you the illusion of freedom and then do what they want with you.

It's sad, but it's a one way ticket to a sad, sad future, human nature is capable of too many perverted things to be contained like that :(

Vengeanze 08-15-2011 11:15 AM

What? We all gonna hug now? Be sure I won't turn my back to that aft hunter. ;-)

We need a new topic!

Sternjaeger II 08-15-2011 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vengeanze (Post 323895)
What? We all gonna hug now? Be sure I won't turn my back to that aft hunter. ;-)

We need a new topic!

you better not, got still some IKEA spares I could throw at you ;-)

Hood 08-15-2011 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II (Post 323863)
unfortunately that's not the case. Italy has the same rules for firearms like most of Europe, but crime is still there, this to show that guns and crime are not necessarily linked.

Quite. Perhaps my post wasn't clear enough. Italy allows guns but according to various statistics gun crime and other crimes are less per capita than in the US or UK.

I'm also glad to see that UK citizens are now labelled sheep just because we hold a view that does not agree with those of a minority or non-UK citizens, and that we all like Jordan. I would... but only after a few pints... But I don't drink so that's another stereotype I fail to fit into. It is also disappointing to see democracy via a majority equated to Nazi Germany.

Stern, please dial back your rhetoric because passionate or not you're just starting to insult people that just so happen to hold a different view from you. That their posts lack tact doesn't really excuse anybody responding in kind.

Baaaaah (I would... but only when I'm in my wellies...)

Hood

ElAurens 08-15-2011 11:40 AM

I will offer one reason why myself and my countrymen are so easily upset about the reaction to fireams ownership by those who are not citizens of the US.

There is a resolution working it's way through the United Nations that in effect would ban private ownership of firearms worldwide, thus abrogating the national soverenity (sorry about spelling, not had my tea yet) of signatory nations. American gun owners are very aware of this effort of the UN and it will be a cause of much consternation when the international community trys to interfere with the people and laws of the US.

Have a good week gents, I'm off to work.

unreasonable 08-15-2011 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II (Post 323890)
I wasn't man, I really mean it. It's obvious that there's something broken in the system and that we all want to live in a safer society (we're not the SPECTRE), it's that we're trying to do it from different approaches.

The right to have a firearm (if deemed suitable for it by a competent panel) should be there regardless of your belief/interest in firearms.

Depriving citizens of their rights won't make a society safer,it will only boost crime, see what happened with proibitionism. What really scares me is that the Orwellian view of modern society is becoming a sad reality in Britain: they don't want you to think, they give you the illusion of freedom and then do what they want with you.

It's sad, but it's a one way ticket to a sad, sad future, human nature is capable of too many perverted things to be contained like that :(

Britain is an interesting case indeed - it went from being one of the most free societies (in the particular sense of small government with minimal interference in economic and social life) at the start of WW1 in 1914, to one of the most unfree (except in social life) in the non-communist world, by the end of WW2. 31 years only.

The reason of course was that only this degree of state mobilization of the nations resources could save the country from being gobbled up by the Germans. I am sure most would agree that this was a very real threat, and not some conspiracy theory invented by the establishment in order to boost their power.

Then once this new equilibrium was established, the majority of the population decided that it preferred the new deal. There was no going back.

Personally I can live with that - my take is that all developing countries sooner or later have to co-opt the majority of the population into their economic systems through some mechanism of positive rights and redistribution, otherwise development stops. The UK just did it very abruptly due to war - other states have done it as a response to the threat of revolution or economic stagnation.

The problem then becomes how to manage the moral hazard or free-rider problem, when there is a growing constituency of welfare providers who increase the size of their power base by calling for "more resources", and so are not motivated to restrict the distribution of public funds. Sadly the police seem, in some respects, to have been co-opted by this group.

I am not convinced that there is any answer to this problem except that of a major moral revolution spurred by a religious revival, which brings its own disadvantages, to put it mildly, (speaking as an unbeliever).

unreasonable 08-15-2011 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vengeanze (Post 323895)
What? We all gonna hug now? Be sure I won't turn my back to that aft hunter. ;-)

We need a new topic!

Waves of Arguments have been thrown into the fray, their broken bodies now twisting on the barbed wire. Huge armoured Rebuttals have ground the front line Arguments into the mud of no-man's-land, only to fall prey to concealed Ripostes. Meanwhile the special forces - hordes of highly trained Fallacies - have created chaos in the rear areas. The front lines are static. The combatants are exhausted, all reserves committed.

An erie silence falls over the field.

Peace in our time? :-P

Hood 08-15-2011 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ElAurens (Post 323905)
I will offer one reason why myself and my countrymen are so easily upset about the reaction to fireams ownership by those who are not citizens of the US.

There is a resolution working it's way through the United Nations that in effect would ban private ownership of firearms worldwide, thus abrogating the national soverenity (sorry about spelling, not had my tea yet) of signatory nations. American gun owners are very aware of this effort of the UN and it will be a cause of much consternation when the international community trys to interfere with the people and laws of the US.

Have a good week gents, I'm off to work.

As opposed to the US involving itself with the people and laws of the international community? There is some innocent hypocrisy there, but as always I'd much rather be with the US than against it and I have admiration for the USA's willingness to put itself in harm's way for the good of everyone.

I agree with your sentiments though I'm pretty sure that the international community will not be able to "force" the US to comply. For my part the UK lost its sovereignty a while back and I just love seeing my taxes not being used in the UK but going to help shore up the economies of other European countries.

Personally I'd go down the Norwegian route of being in the European Economic Area but that's part of a debate that's bigger than this forum and a little bit further away than the riots.

Hood

ruggbutt 08-15-2011 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vengeanze (Post 323849)
That's another interesting aspect. Most shootings here are done by organised crime having some disputes like HA fighting Bandidos or russian mafia killing off some ukranian mafia.
Very seldom are the victims innocent.
Instead we're going for world domination by selling furnitures with hidden intelligence in em.

Let's go a bit further and dismiss all black on black crime in the U.S. as well. Because most of that is gang related (organized crime). With that in consideration then we don't have much of a firearms crime rate at all.

And lets be fair, those pesky blacks had it coming. Right? :confused:

SNAFU 08-15-2011 01:05 PM

Cross-reading the thread, looking for some monday amusement, I thank some of you to remind me of what happy enviroment I am living.

A shooting here and there, someone occasionally stabbed in the train, a violant robbery (experience that myself, I am today quite happy I didn´t have easy access to a gun, these days, after being released from hopital - I am not sure if I wouldn´t have used it in revenge), but afterall I do not have to live in a constant state of fear, that I only feel safe, while wearing a gun.

Serving my time during the Kosovo-conflict, I spent enough time wearing guns and rifles in public, day and night, even while shopping. That days I experienced that some usually nice, kind fellows, started to act strange over the time. I thought that the given power corrupted their character and they were somewhat different, while wearing these guns - and switched to normal again, as soon as the weapons, where locked safe again.

Anyhow, the day I would only feel safe in my enviroment with a gun, I would pack all my belongings into my sailing boat a leave. As some of you are talking about freedom, there is no such thing - only the big streams and seas of this world.

So do you really feel that you live a free world, if this world makes you believe, you are safer, with the power of a gun?

Sternjaeger II 08-15-2011 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hood (Post 323904)
Quite. Perhaps my post wasn't clear enough. Italy allows guns but according to various statistics gun crime and other crimes are less per capita than in the US or UK.

ah ok, gotcha now.


Quote:

I'm also glad to see that UK citizens are now labelled sheep just because we hold a view that does not agree with those of a minority or non-UK citizens, and that we all like Jordan. I would... but only after a few pints... But I don't drink so that's another stereotype I fail to fit into. It is also disappointing to see democracy via a majority equated to Nazi Germany.
aawww come on, it was in reply to winny's distorted view of democracy. Plus don't forget that Nazi Germany was born as a democracy anyway, it was deformed into what it was eventually, but nobody was looking for an emperor. The historical problem with regimes and social problems is that we never see that coming, we think of the examples of the past as...well..the past, and don't think for a minute it could happen again. The issue with modern society is that it's a headless beast, it can take the most unexpected directions and get ugly very easily.

Quote:

Stern, please dial back your rhetoric because passionate or not you're just starting to insult people that just so happen to hold a different view from you. That their posts lack tact doesn't really excuse anybody responding in kind.

Baaaaah (I would... but only when I'm in my wellies...)

Hood
I didn't start the insults war, it was others that stated going on the low levels cos they ran out of arguments. I'm just asking to THINK objectively about the issue, and not give me the ready-made propaganda that you've been fed with so far, simply cos I come from another culture and find some of your decisions extremely contradictory and too bent towards the political correctness.

ATAG_Doc 08-15-2011 01:10 PM

sales of baseball bats in the U.K. increased by over 6,000 percent
 
Batter up!

"sales of baseball bats in the U.K. suddenly increased by over 6,000 percent last week"

http://www.tennessean.com/article/20...ment-s-failure

Sternjaeger II 08-15-2011 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hood (Post 323925)
For my part the UK lost its sovereignty a while back and I just love seeing my taxes not being used in the UK but going to help shore up the economies of other European countries.

That's a bit of a generalisation man, you have to trade some of your market with the outside world to survive on this planet. Come to think of it, it's the United Kingdom who's actually racking up money from other countries, thanks to the Tertiary industry. You shut down most of your industries, leaving a lot of people unemployed, your agriculture is only marginally capable of keeping up with the demands of a spoiled market like the one we have (ANY kind of fruit available all time through the year, do we REALLY need that?).. where's the wealth of the UK coming from then? Banking, Blue Chip, research, Services.. you've changed the face of a nation that built its strength on the industrial revolution, with little or no concern for the changes that it would have cost to the population. It's a choice, like many other countries did, the point is how much did the average population have voice in this change?

Vengeanze 08-15-2011 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by timej31 (Post 323933)

Cute. :)

TomcatViP 08-15-2011 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SNAFU (Post 323930)
Cross-reading the thread, looking for some monday amusement, I thank some of you to remind me of what happy enviroment I am living.

A shooting here and there, someone occasionally stabbed in the train, a violant robbery (experience that myself, I am today quite happy I didn´t have easy access to a gun, these days, after being released from hopital - I am not sure if I wouldn´t have used it in revenge), but afterall I do not have to live in a constant state of fear, that I only feel safe, while wearing a gun.

Serving my time during the Kosovo-conflict, I spent enough time wearing guns and rifles in public, day and night, even while shopping. That days I experienced that some usually nice, kind fellows, started to act strange over the time. I thought that the given power corrupted their character and they were somewhat different, while wearing these guns - and switched to normal again, as soon as the weapons, where locked safe again.

Anyhow, the day I would only feel safe in my enviroment with a gun, I would pack all my belongings into my sailing boat a leave. As some of you are talking about freedom, there is no such thing - only the big streams and seas of this world.

So do you really feel that you live a free world, if this world makes you believe, you are safer, with the power of a gun?

+1

by the way your sentence "only the big streams and seas of this world" could be turned into : Only the big bubbling clouds and clear skies of this world ... ;-)

SNAFU 08-15-2011 01:35 PM

Well, I first thought so and started my glider-plane license when I was 14, until I found out, that you need at least 40+ guys on the ground, for the one guy flying and that you cannot let go a fart, without asking for permisssion or a detailed plan. That wasn´t the freedom I was looking for and I quit after 4 years, just when I was about to make my third wing and turned back to where I came from - the waters... ;)

Sternjaeger II 08-15-2011 01:40 PM

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14514429

"What we've witnessed this week has been British policing at its absolute best" really?! It's obvious that someone somewhere must have lost a couple of episodes in the saga of modern society..

Hood 08-15-2011 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II (Post 323937)
That's a bit of a generalisation man, you have to trade some of your market with the outside world to survive on this planet. Come to think of it, it's the United Kingdom who's actually racking up money from other countries, thanks to the Tertiary industry. You shut down most of your industries, leaving a lot of people unemployed, your agriculture is only marginally capable of keeping up with the demands of a spoiled market like the one we have (ANY kind of fruit available all time through the year, do we REALLY need that?).. where's the wealth of the UK coming from then? Banking, Blue Chip, research, Services.. you've changed the face of a nation that built its strength on the industrial revolution, with little or no concern for the changes that it would have cost to the population. It's a choice, like many other countries did, the point is how much did the average population have voice in this change?

A slight misunderstanding. I mean that the UK is now providing a lot of money for no gain in order to prevent other European countries going bankrupt in the current Euro crisis eg Spain, Greece, Italy, Portugal, Ireland etc. Trade is very important of course and the change in the UK's industry has its basis in many factors not all of which can be controlled within the UK's borders or by its electorate eg the rise of cheap manufacturing in the far east.

Hood

Wolf_Rider 08-15-2011 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by timej31 (Post 323933)
Batter up!

"sales of baseball bats in the U.K. suddenly increased by over 6,000 percent last week"

http://www.tennessean.com/article/20...ment-s-failure


"Where are the police? They are overwhelmed by the volume and brazenness of the outbreaks. They are also constrained in their response by what appears on the surface to be modern Western restraint, but is in fact a symptom of the modern evasion of social realities that we lamely call “political correctness.” The British welfare system has bred personal responsibility out of the class that has become dependent on it; and the shortsighted immigration system has failed to integrate the foreign communities it has created within."

the author nailed it




and out of the lack of personal responsibiities comes the need for others (higher ups) to be responsible for them... the beginnings of the Orwellian state by stealth

winny 08-15-2011 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II (Post 323876)
uh, that's a safe assumption: you're basically saying that the majority is right. I'm sure you might have heard of Nazi Germany at some point in your life.. I'm surprised I'm even discussing the sense of democracy really, it's obvious I give people's education for granted..

Where did I say I was right? There is no wrong or right in this.. It's about what people, and what I want. I'm expressing my opinion and I cannot be wrong. It's not a matter of fact it's a matter of opinion.

Democracy lets people with different opinions vote for what they want.
Remember, you're the one who told me that because I disagreed with you I was un-democratic - It is not me who has a distroted sense of democracy it is you.



Quote:

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II (Post 323876)
That's good for you, but in a democracy, even minorities have their right to express their opinion. You're thinking more along the lines of an enlightened regime, which is what we're living in at the moment.

...are you for real? You say I have no understanding of democracy? I know that minorities are allowed to express thier opinion - It's a democracy so everyone can, Majority included.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II (Post 323876)
..what are you supposed to mean with that? Is it another case of "I don't know how to answer so I'll shout them to STFU". My dear keyboard hero, there was a time when you would be able to make such aggressive statements, bear the consequences of it (most likely a broken nose), then go home and learn from it. Nowadays you'd probably call the police and report the aggression, or do it from a pc, where you know you're safe and can get the worst out with no consequences. You're the frustrated individual, not me. I can live in a world of guns and know how to behave/handle them, you can't simply cos you've been told it's bad (unless it's Northern Ireland, or Afghanistan, or Iraq) and obey like a good sheep.

What is your problem?

Because I don't agree with you you assume I'm a sheep? I said STFU because you called me "selfish, discriminatory and anti-democratic" and I am none of these things and it made me angry.

I am just expressing my personal view and I decided I wouldn't like more relaxed gun laws in the UK. I like it as it is.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II (Post 323876)
I don't need to, I'm fine with the possibilities I'm given at the moment.
Once again, your beloved government just had the courage to propose to shut down social networks in case other riots happen.. don't you really see what they're trying to do to your freedom?? :confused:

Here you go again.. what have guns and twitter got to do with each other?


I have the freedom to not want more guns in the UK - You are a hypocrite.

No matter how much you dislike it.. I don't want more guns in the UK.

Now leave me to the freedom of my own opinion. Like I already said if it's that important to you then start campaigning for mre relaxed gun laws.
Go to your MP.
You'll find that you are in the minority, and the way democracy currently works that means you just have to deal with it.

Sternjaeger II 08-15-2011 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hood (Post 323954)
A slight misunderstanding. I mean that the UK is now providing a lot of money for no gain in order to prevent other European countries going bankrupt in the current Euro crisis eg Spain, Greece, Italy, Portugal, Ireland etc. Trade is very important of course and the change in the UK's industry has its basis in many factors not all of which can be controlled within the UK's borders or by its electorate eg the rise of cheap manufacturing in the far east.

Hood

Well it's no different from what the US did with the Marshall Plan, creating economic submission. It might look stupid to the average citizen, but it's the ABC of speculative finance.

The change of the UK industry is a mystery to me: take the automobile industry, yes, you never really made anything impressive out of it (apart for one or two luxury brands), but with the improvement of technologies and with the foreign know-how, you could have kept a strong independence on that. The problem is that, as usual, British engineering is a bit too much revolutionary, and apart for one off stuff like the Mini, you came up with abortion like the Robin Reliant.

but I digress, I think that considering the actual situation, the UK economy is one of the strongest and less handicapped of the planet (Germany and France could probably be better, but they're crippled by the Euro).

Skoshi Tiger 08-15-2011 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wolf_Rider (Post 323958)
"Where are the police? They are overwhelmed by the volume and brazenness of the outbreaks. They are also constrained in their response by what appears on the surface to be modern Western restraint, but is in fact a symptom of the modern evasion of social realities that we lamely call “political correctness.” The British welfare system has bred personal responsibility out of the class that has become dependent on it; and the shortsighted immigration system has failed to integrate the foreign communities it has created within."

the author nailed it

Why would you want an aluminium bat? Wouldn't wood be much more appropriate? Personally I would have choosen a nice (English) willow cricket bat. It takes a bit more skill but when hit em' edge on you get the force concentrated in a much smaller area!

"an elegant weapon for a more civilized age" ;)

Cheers!

Sternjaeger II 08-15-2011 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by winny (Post 323961)
Where did I say I was right? There is no wrong or right in this.. It's about what people, and what I want. I'm expressing my opinion and I cannot be wrong. It's not a matter of fact it's a matter of opinion.

Democracy lets people with different opinions vote for what they want.
Remember, you're the one who told me that because I disagreed with you I was un-democratic - It is not me who has a distroted sense of democracy it is you.

you're completely missing my point, I don't know whether you don't get it or you dont want to get it.

Quote:

...are you for real? You say I have no understanding of democracy? I know that minorities are allowed to express thier opinion - It's a democracy so everyone can, Majority included.
same as above.

Quote:

What is your problem?

Because I don't agree with you you assume I'm a sheep? I said STFU because you called me "selfish, discriminatory and anti-democratic" and I am none of these things and it made me angry.
if you can motivate why you don't want more guns in the UK with valid points then fair enough, but if you can't and just blurt it out like that, then I'm afraid you are part of the ovine category.

Anger is a dangerous feeling, it's instinct, we can't really get rid of it, but we can control it. I haven't said I don't want to listen to your opinion cos I want more guns, I am here to listen, so please, explain me why you don't want more guns in the UK.

Quote:

I am just expressing my personal view and I decided I wouldn't like more relaxed gun laws in the UK. I like it as it is.
Well neither do I, I don't want more relaxed gun laws, in fact I want stricter ones! That would allow people that are deemed capable and responsible enough to handle a gun to have all the guns they want, and rest assured that they won't make any difference to your life.

Quote:

Here you go again.. what have guns and twitter got to do with each other?
...again, seriously? It's about what the Government is trying to do to you, not just guns. They can't face a problem, they take it off you. Ever wonder why, with all the issues related to alcohol and the billions it costs us every year to sort problems out, they don't do anything to control that?

Quote:

I have the freedom to not want more guns in the UK - You are a hypocrite.
yes, you do, it'd be interesting to know why, cos you've been at gun point and it shocked you? Cos if that's the case all you need to do then is grow a pair, sonny... but I'm sure it's not the case, and you have valid arguments against firearms.

Quote:

No matter how much you dislike it.. I don't want more guns in the UK.
It's your feud, not mine, I don't care if you want more guns, less guns, daisies or pink elephants. I know what I want, it's a Government that gives trust to its citizens and doesnt play big brother with us lot.

Quote:

Now leave me to the freedom of my own opinion. Like I already said if it's that important to you then start campaigning for mre relaxed gun laws.
Go to your MP.
You'll find that you are in the minority, and the way democracy currently works that means you just have to deal with it.
sure, you're entitled to your opinion like anybody else, but since this is a forum, where people exchange opinion, be ready to meet people whose opinion may differ from yours, and be ready to give valid arguments to defend your position, otherwise, you should better STFU.

I don't get why a Spitfire is better than an Enfield anyway, but I'm sure you have an explanation for it.

Sternjaeger II 08-15-2011 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skoshi Tiger (Post 323963)
Why would you want an aluminium bat? Wouldn't wood be much more appropriate? Personally I would have choosen a nice (English) willow cricket bat. It takes a bit more skill but when hit em' edge on you get the force concentrated in a much smaller area!

"an elegant weapon for a more civilized age" ;)

Cheers!

lol yeah, a cricket bat can be used like a Roman gladius ;-)

I wonder how long it will take before we'll need a license for a bat..

Wolf_Rider 08-15-2011 02:39 PM

as I was saying...

nearmiss 08-15-2011 03:21 PM

This thread is pretty well done. It amazes me how people can keep re-hashing the same discussion over and over.

Regardless, as long as it's on the topic I guess we'll wait until every living soul on this forum as posted here.

Sternjaeger II 08-15-2011 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nearmiss (Post 323982)
This thread is pretty well done. It amazes me how people can keep re-hashing the same discussion over and over.

Regardless, as long as it's on the topic I guess we'll wait until every living soul on this forum as posted here.

well I'm still waiting for an explanation from Winny here..

Vengeanze 08-15-2011 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nearmiss (Post 323982)
This thread is pretty well done. It amazes me how people can keep re-hashing the same discussion over and over.

Regardless, as long as it's on the topic I guess we'll wait until every living soul on this forum as posted here.

You know, if u close it then two others will pop up screaming CENSURSHIP!! :grin:

I'm done here. Think I managed to convert a couple of souls with my eloquent argumentation. ;-)

Sternjaeger II 08-15-2011 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vengeanze (Post 323987)
You know, if u close it then two others will pop up screaming CENSURSHIP!! :grin:

I'm done here. Think I managed to convert a couple of souls with my eloquent argumentation. ;-)

you did, gonna go home and dismantle my IKEA stuff looking for microphones now lol :mrgreen:

Vengeanze 08-15-2011 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II (Post 323989)
you did, gonna go home and dismantle my IKEA stuff looking for microphones now lol :mrgreen:

:-D

winny 08-15-2011 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II (Post 323968)
Anger is a dangerous feeling, it's instinct, we can't really get rid of it, but we can control it. I haven't said I don't want to listen to your opinion cos I want more guns, I am here to listen, so please, explain me why you don't want more guns in the UK.

Very patronising, thanks.
Basically I just don't want more lethal weapons in the UK. I'm quite happy with the current laws.
I have kids, It's a personal choice, I've not been swayed by anyone.
I'm not particularly anti gun, just happy with the way things are.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II (Post 323968)
...again, seriously? It's about what the Government is trying to do to you, not just guns. They can't face a problem, they take it off you. Ever wonder why, with all the issues related to alcohol and the billions it costs us every year to sort problems out, they don't do anything to control that?

I'm very aware of what the government is trying to do, thanks. They are regulating firearms. I'm not affected by it so I'm not bothered.

Alcohol? Did prohibition not happen in your world?
If you want to see democracy in action try banning Alcohol in the UK...
-Never gonna happen-

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II (Post 323968)
yes, you do, it'd be interesting to know why, cos you've been at gun point and it shocked you? Cos if that's the case all you need to do then is grow a pair, sonny... but I'm sure it's not the case, and you have valid arguments against firearms.

Grow a pair sonny? Who do you think you're talking to? That's just offensive and patronising and takes no account of who I am. You are very judgemental.

I wasn't particularly shocked no.
1st time it happend I was in a Post office, I was a customer, armed robbers came in, they had a sawn off, I just did what I was told.

2nd time was an attempted mugging. I didn't get shot, he didn't get my wallet. I think I broke his jaw but I didn't hang around to find out.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II (Post 323968)
sure, you're entitled to your opinion like anybody else, but since this is a forum, where people exchange opinion, be ready to meet people whose opinion may differ from yours, and be ready to give valid arguments to defend your position, otherwise, you should better STFU.

What? Are you serious? The reson we are havng this argument is because I posted an opinion that differed to yours. Which you then jumped all over me for! I've been patronised, disrespected, called names, had my intelligence questioned all by you because I dont agree with you. You should read your own advice. You are the very definition of hypocrisy. I never once said you were wrong. I just accept your opinion and carry on with mine.

I don't see why I should have to defend and justify my position on this to someone I don't know. I'm entitled to my opinion.

As for freedom, what freedom? there are 100's of laws you must abide to.
Do we just change or get rid of the ones you don't like? Why not get rid of them all then we'll all be 100% free.

Guns or no Guns is a question of preference, not right and wrong. You have tried to turn it into right and wrong and have been pretty offensive too.

You would not act this way if I was in the room.

Sternjaeger II 08-15-2011 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by winny (Post 324004)
Very patronising, thanks.
Basically I just don't want more lethal weapons in the UK. I'm quite happy with the current laws.

I'm sorry man, but guns are still legally imported in the UK everyday.

Quote:

I have kids, It's a personal choice, I've not been swayed by anyone.
I'm not particularly anti gun, just happy with the way things are.
so is it because you're afraid for your children? I'm afraid for my children too, but it's not fear of firearms, they're the last of my concerns, I'm afraid of the shallowness of our society, of paedos, of poor education, of wrong values.

I'm sorry, and I'm not taking the mick, it's still not clear why you're against firearms.

Quote:

I'm very aware of what the government is trying to do, thanks. They are regulating firearms. I'm not affected by it so I'm not bothered.
No they haven't, in fact they haven't changed a thing after the Cumbria shooting, which was quite surprising to me actually. Please if you have time and really care about the topic, spend some time reading the regulations.

Quote:

Alcohol? Did prohibition not happen in your world?
If you want to see democracy in action try banning Alcohol in the UK...
-Never gonna happen-
I am not talking about prohibitionism, I'm talking about a campaign like the one against smoke, why doesn't that happen? Please answer to this, because as a non-British citizen I struggle to understand the self-destructive attitude of binge drinking. Brits have one of the most driven and effective ways of gathering together and make things happen, but why it happens only for certain things? Alcohol has done way more victims than any gun massacre, still it's acceptable in our society.


Quote:

Grow a pair sonny? Who do you think you're talking to? That's just offensive and patronising and takes no account of who I am. You are very judgemental.
it was meant as a provocation, as I'm sure you know. I knew it wasn't the case, and wasn't actually directed at you, if you got offended I apologise.

Quote:

I wasn't particularly shocked no.
1st time it happend I was in a Post office, I was a customer, armed robbers came in, they had a sawn off, I just did what I was told.

2nd time was an attempted mugging. I didn't get shot, he didn't get my wallet. I think I broke his jaw but I didn't hang around to find out.
I had similar experiences, plus my time in the Army, when I've been under fire in several occasions (once even under friendly fire, by far the most frustrating experience). It's life, and one wishes it would never happen, or if it did, that you can tell the story, but again, it has no connection with my will to possess firearms, I could have been in a life threatening situation under a knife, a bat or 20 folks, it doesn't matter the mean, it's the perpetrators.

One of the things I've done in my life and that I'm very grateful for is following a Krav Maga course, and I (unfortunately) put it to use in 3 different situations. Of these three, only one was under a firearm threat, and I've surprised myself on how quickly I reacted. I was at a light with my window down, a guy runs towards me as he was crossing the road and points a gun at my face shouting me to get out: I raised my hands, quickly grabbed the pistol and pushed it towards my windscreen, jamming it with his hand between my window and the windscreen, then moved forward until he let go.

I drove to the closest police station, got in and handed what I only then realised was a blank firing gun.

We all have our horror stories, that's why I prefer living in the quiet British countryside.

Quote:

What? Are you serious? The reson we are havng this argument is because I posted an opinion that differed to yours. Which you then jumped all over me for! I've been patronised, disrespected, called names, had my intelligence questioned all by you because I dont agree with you. You should read your own advice. You are the very definition of hypocrisy. I never once said you were wrong. I just accept your opinion and carry on with mine.
nananah, look back man, look how you delivered your opinion.

Quote:

I don't see why I should have to defend and justify my position on this to someone I don't know. I'm entitled to my opinion.
Are you really telling me you can't even defend your own opinion to a stranger? :confused:

Quote:

As for freedom, what freedom? there are 100's of laws you must abide to.
Do we just change or get rid of the ones you don't like? Why not get rid of them all then we'll all be 100% free.
the good old saying "my freedom ends where yours begins" still applies, the society we live in is just the referee for this match called life.

Quote:

Guns or no Guns is a question of preference, not right and wrong. You have tried to turn it into right and wrong and have been pretty offensive too.

You would not act this way if I was in the room.
there is right and wrong in everything, it's all about validating the two sides. And I would still defend my ideas, being in the same room would actually help, since I find communicating via forum extremely frustrating and mutilated in terms of quality. We might argue, we might agree or agree to disagree, who knows. I can come to Manchester (my fav pub is there) and talk with you about guns, aeroplanes and rights, but I'd rather talk about these things than pretend it's all ok in our society.

You still haven't told me why a Spitfire is better than an Enfield.

von Pilsner 08-15-2011 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II (Post 324024)
there is right and wrong in everything, it's all about validating the two sides.

Many problems do have more than one solution and not all answers are correct for everyone.

If the guy likes the current laws in the UK then he likes them, it does not make his opinion wrong or bad.

Sternjaeger II 08-15-2011 07:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by von Pilsner (Post 324044)
Many problems do have more than one solution and not all answers are correct for everyone.

If the guy likes the current laws in the UK then he likes them, it does not make his opinion wrong or bad.

I agree, but mine is honest curiosity, it's my curious nature, I want to understand and compare with my position.

ATAG_Doc 08-15-2011 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II (Post 323989)
you did, gonna go home and dismantle my IKEA stuff looking for microphones now lol :mrgreen:

Oh my goodness too funny we had a couple guys in the office a week ago from the netherlands and I asked them if they'd come over and help me assemble some furniture I bought from IKEA like 6 months ago. lol

BadAim 08-15-2011 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vengeanze (Post 323834)
Bad spelling, posts about swedish bikiniteam and polarbears, socialist pov. And I thought I really stood out as a swede. :-D

2nd amendment is not about freedom as a hole but freedom to bear firearms. A major difference there. When talking to pro-guns I get the feeling that they think I want to severely limit their freedom which is totally wrong - just a tiny bit of it. ;-)
Reason I highlight the year the 2nd amendment was adopted is because life was different back then. People needed guns to hunt and protect them selfs from wild animals plus that the lawenforcement system was more or less non existing compared to today.
I totally support the right to bear arms in 1791 and actually I support it for people who live lifes similar to back then (like some distant places like Alaska). However, I can't see the need for a gun when living uptown Dallas (as an example).

Actually only the polar bears would really distinguish you from a Brit. :)

As for the second amendment, I'm afraid you are missing the context. The second amendment was certainly about freedom as a whole, as a matter of fact it's the second amendment that ensures all of the others.

You have to remember the context, mate. We had just tossed out the Brits by force of arms for infringing on our freedoms, of course the second amendment was about freedom. The founding fathers held as a given that free men had the absolute right to defend themselves, and that free communities had the right to band together to defend their communities (the militia), that's why the bill of rights was added later......it was simply unfinished business. (business that the original framers considered self evident).

You may disagree, but I certainly don't feel like we live in a safer world than they did. The majority of the framers of the constitution were rarely in danger of bear attacks, and I doubt many of them hunted except for sport. The predators they were concerned about were the two legged kind, both the typical dark alleyway variety and the political oppressor type. None of that has changed, if anything it has gotten worse.

I happen to like a lot of you guys, even if I think that your political views are divorced from reality. I don't believe that guns are the answer to all of your problems, but I don't believe they are the cause of any of them.

winny 08-15-2011 08:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II (Post 324024)
I'm sorry man, but guns are still legally imported in the UK everyday.

Thank you for finally talking to me like I'm an adult.
I know guns are imported, I'm not (as you may have thought) stupid.
I know that the main route into Manchester for Guns in the 80's and 90's was through the use of baggage handelrs at Manchester airport who were also being paid by the gangs. I know you can't stop it.



Quote:

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II (Post 324024)
so is it because you're afraid for your children? I'm afraid for my children too, but it's not fear of firearms, they're the last of my concerns, I'm afraid of the shallowness of our society, of paedos, of poor education, of wrong values.

I'm sorry, and I'm not taking the mick, it's still not clear why you're against firearms.

I can't put it any simpler than I just don't like them (Don't get me wrong, I have a bookshelf full of Millitary history, firearms history, etc.. I undersand thier millitary value). I just don't like the fact that a machine designed to kill people could be made more easily available for use by the general public.

I'm sorry that this 'catch all' law means you can't shoot stuff, but for every responsible firearms person there will be someone who isn't as responsible.

I share the same concerns,but you're assuming I'm 'against' firearms, I'm not. I just don't see the need for anyone to own a semi or fully automatic weapon in the UK, or a handgun for that matter.
If anything I'd like to see illegal possesion more firmly punnished.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II (Post 324024)
No they haven't, in fact they haven't changed a thing after the Cumbria shooting, which was quite surprising to me actually. Please if you have time and really care about the topic, spend some time reading the regulations.

Eh? you say they don't regulate firearms then tell me to read the regulations..?

I don't care a lot about this topic. The reason I'm still here is because of the way you spoke to me, not to change your mind or to have mine changed.
I'm standing up for myself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II (Post 324024)
I am not talking about prohibitionism, I'm talking about a campaign like the one against smoke, why doesn't that happen? Please answer to this, because as a non-British citizen I struggle to understand the self-destructive attitude of binge drinking. Brits have one of the most driven and effective ways of gathering together and make things happen, but why it happens only for certain things? Alcohol has done way more victims than any gun massacre, still it's acceptable in our society.

I cannot explain the British attitude to alcohol. It baffles me. It's a symptom of the same problem that caused the looting sprees, no prospects, no interest in the future, no concept of consequence and selfishness. There is a real 'screw you, I'll do what I want' attitude around at the moment.
Again we're off track here.. The British are a strangley self destructive race, I don't know why.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II (Post 324024)
One of the things I've done in my life and that I'm very grateful for is following a Krav Maga course, and I (unfortunately) put it to use in 3 different situations. Of these three, only one was under a firearm threat, and I've surprised myself on how quickly I reacted. I was at a light with my window down, a guy runs towards me as he was crossing the road and points a gun at my face shouting me to get out: I raised my hands, quickly grabbed the pistol and pushed it towards my windscreen, jamming it with his hand between my window and the windscreen, then moved forward until he let go

.

I just got lucky with my experience. I just tried the whole " I'll do what you want, just relax and don't shoot me" I also asked that he leave me my wallet and take the money and cards as the wallet was a gift from my dead mother (it was a gif but she's not dead!) I was basically trying to get him to slow down a bit so I could think..

He looked over his shoulder as he was taking the cards out of my wallet and at that point I just thought that if he looked over his shoulder again I'd hit him as hard and as fast as I could. He looked over his shoulder again and I ended up with a broken hand


Quote:

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II (Post 324024)
Are you really telling me you can't even defend your own opinion to a stranger? :confused:

No, what I meant was I don't need to justify myself, you questioned my intelligence and my ability to make informed decisions.. My opinion is out there now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II (Post 324024)
there is right and wrong in everything, it's all about validating the two sides. And I would still defend my ideas, being in the same room would actually help, since I find communicating via forum extremely frustrating and mutilated in terms of quality. We might argue, we might agree or agree to disagree, who knows. I can come to Manchester (my fav pub is there) and talk with you about guns, aeroplanes and rights, but I'd rather talk about these things than pretend it's all ok in our society.

There is not right and wrong in everything. Is a pencil right or wrong? Or a duck? And who's right and wrong are we using? Yours or mine? (they may differ)

There is no right and wrong with guns. You've used the argument that guns are neither good nor bad, yet you're quite happy to put right and wrong into use when talking about them. Gun usage can never be classified by using such emotive terms as 'right and wrong'. Necessary or not necessary is the ony criteria.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II (Post 324024)
You still haven't told me why a Spitfire is better than an Enfield.

I dunno..
Because a Sitfire is a classic WW2 Warbird (which I like) and Enfield is a London borough (which I'm not as keen on)?

I'll sum up.. You like to own guns, I don't see the need to own one. You see the regulations as erroding your freedom. I just see it as another bit of legislation that doesn't affect me in any way.

Guess what, we probably like different foods, and football teams, and TV shows,

To say that you jumped all over my post because of the way I said it just sounds like a poor excuse for some poor behaviour.

All I said was I don't want more guns.

Can we move on now?

Vengeanze 08-15-2011 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadAim (Post 324052)
Actually only the polar bears would really distinguish you from a Brit. :)

As for the second amendment, I'm afraid you are missing the context. The second amendment was certainly about freedom as a whole, as a matter of fact it's the second amendment that ensures all of the others.

You have to remember the context, mate. We had just tossed out the Brits by force of arms for infringing on our freedoms, of course the second amendment was about freedom. The founding fathers held as a given that free men had the absolute right to defend themselves, and that free communities had the right to band together to defend their communities (the militia), that's why the bill of rights was added later......it was simply unfinished business. (business that the original framers considered self evident).

You may disagree, but I certainly don't feel like we live in a safer world than they did. The majority of the framers of the constitution were rarely in danger of bear attacks, and I doubt many of them hunted except for sport. The predators they were concerned about were the two legged kind, both the typical dark alleyway variety and the political oppressor type. None of that has changed, if anything it has gotten worse.

I happen to like a lot of you guys, even if I think that your political views are divorced from reality. I don't believe that guns are the answer to all of your problems, but I don't believe they are the cause of any of them.

Makes sense.

baronWastelan 08-15-2011 09:09 PM

Back on topic:

Essex police charge man over water fight planned on BlackBerry Messenger

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/...ck-to--007.jpg

BadAim 08-16-2011 12:21 AM

Thank you baron, I was under the impression that I had already seen the most moronic possible use of police power. It seems that I was mistaken. I suspect that the worlds police forces will have to work really, really hard to top this one........I give 'em a week.

I do have one question though, was the picture intended to represent the offenders or the coppers?

ruggbutt 08-16-2011 12:47 AM

Britons, your government says you will submit. You will bow to their whim. No matter how stupid they act.

unreasonable 08-16-2011 04:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ruggbutt (Post 324112)
Britons, your government says you will submit. You will bow to their whim. No matter how stupid they act.

"Speak roughly to your little boy, And beat him when he sneezes: He only does it to annoy, Because he knows it teases"

baronWastelan 08-16-2011 05:17 AM

You have to understand, these seemingly harmless squirt gun fights almost always escalate into something serious. A spray here, a splash there, then someone pulls out a can of silly string in retaliation. Next thing you know, water balloons are being hurled indiscrimately. I won't go into further details as this is a forum accessable by children, but you can review the last 100 years of the Roman Empire to get an idea of where this all leads to.

ruggbutt 08-16-2011 05:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by baronWastelan (Post 324151)
You have to understand, these seemingly harmless squirt gun fights almost always escalate into something serious. A spray here, a splash there, then someone pulls out a can of silly string in retaliation. Next thing you know, water balloons are being hurled indiscrimately. I won't go into further details as this is a forum accessable by children, but you can review the last 100 years of the Roman Empire to get an idea of where this all leads to.

Ahh I see. Wouldn't want to have a bunch of hooligans running around............

Vengeanze 08-16-2011 05:40 AM

Throwing water has two meanings in Sweden - throwing water(!) and taking a leak. You can understand the mayhem when a pack of rioters gathers of which 50% brought water.

unreasonable 08-16-2011 05:41 AM

Indeed: it is imperative that citizens stand up to prevent this kind of degeneracy, as per this fine piece of citizen action (from thesmokinggun.com):

"DECEMBER 5--A South Carolina boy, 12, was arrested Sunday morning after his mother called police to report that he had unwrapped a Christmas present without her permission. According to a Rock Hill Police Department report, the child opened a Nintendo Game Boy, though he had been directed not to by family members. When the boy's mother learned that the $85 gift had been opened, she called cops, who charged the juvenile with petty larceny. In an interview with The Herald newspaper, the boy's mother, a 27-year-old single parent, described her son as a disruptive child, noting that she hoped his arrest would serve as a corrective to disorderly behavior at school and home."

unreasonable 08-16-2011 07:39 AM

On further reflection: I cannot help wondering whether the charge of opening one's box before one should could be equally directed at the single mother.

Timberwolf 08-16-2011 08:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by unreasonable (Post 324156)
Indeed: it is imperative that citizens stand up to prevent this kind of degeneracy, as per this fine piece of citizen action (from thesmokinggun.com):

"DECEMBER 5--A South Carolina boy, 12, was arrested Sunday morning after his mother called police to report that he had unwrapped a Christmas present without her permission. According to a Rock Hill Police Department report, the child opened a Nintendo Game Boy, though he had been directed not to by family members. When the boy's mother learned that the $85 gift had been opened, she called cops, who charged the juvenile with petty larceny. In an interview with The Herald newspaper, the boy's mother, a 27-year-old single parent, described her son as a disruptive child, noting that she hoped his arrest would serve as a corrective to disorderly behavior at school and home."

It's not the childs fault. I say the roots of the problem lay with the mother.
Yes she's a single parent and it's hard to correct a disorderly child. However Charging a 12 year old and having a juvenile record that could carry into adult-hood isn't going to correct him/her. Simply Taking the gift back and returning the item or holding it to a later date would of been my choice.
What the paper doesn't fill in are the 12 years of the childs life ..Where the father is or how many men have come and gone in his life How stable his background is or was. Therapy/counselling maybe in order.

Having Police as a man figure with authority is yet another draw back As the child only sees it and yet another man there to apply disciplined without any structure or value of reason
My 2 cents

SNAFU 08-16-2011 09:01 AM

Well, that is far from topic, but in some cultures it is common to become mother with 14 years, but I would guess that rather fits to surroundings with a less amount of influences and distractions, and close bound cultural roles and relations inside a community - all things that does not fit into our modern, western world.

Poor girl, poor boy.

Sternjaeger II 08-16-2011 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by winny (Post 324054)
Thank you for finally talking to me like I'm an adult.
I know guns are imported, I'm not (as you may have thought) stupid.
I know that the main route into Manchester for Guns in the 80's and 90's was through the use of baggage handelrs at Manchester airport who were also being paid by the gangs. I know you can't stop it.

I'm sorry if it all came out as patronising, it's a cultural thing I'm afraid, nothing personal, this is the way we talk in Italy and we don't mean to be patronising, but it comes out differently and the forum medium doesn't help either. You can't stop it mainly cos it's embarrassingly easy to smuggle stuff through, not in airports, but everywhere else.

Quote:

I can't put it any simpler than I just don't like them (Don't get me wrong, I have a bookshelf full of Millitary history, firearms history, etc.. I undersand thier millitary value). I just don't like the fact that a machine designed to kill people could be made more easily available for use by the general public.
ok, so you obviously find firearms fascinating but don't want the responsibility of having one in your household. Is that correct?

Quote:

I'm sorry that this 'catch all' law means you can't shoot stuff, but for every responsible firearms person there will be someone who isn't as responsible.
It's ok, I still enjoy using all my firearms when I'm back in Italy, it's not big deal to me, but I take several British friends to the shooting range, and they all were impressed by the culture and above all how there's pretty much no difference between a bolt action and semiauto rifle. The Enfield in particular, because of its spring loaded bolt action, is renown for its so called "mad minute", in which experienced shooters can deliver an impressive 30 rounds per minute hitting a target at 200 yards (the record, back in 1914, is of 38). Then again, a rimfire .22cal version of the ColtM4 or Car15 is available for sale, and that is too incredibly lethal.

Quote:

I share the same concerns,but you're assuming I'm 'against' firearms, I'm not. I just don't see the need for anyone to own a semi or fully automatic weapon in the UK, or a handgun for that matter.
If anything I'd like to see illegal possesion more firmly punnished.
for the semiauto see above, for the full auto I have a mixed feeling. The destructive potential of an automatic machine gun is big, there could be stricter regulations like you're not authorised to leave the shooting range with it (many shooting ranges offer the possibility to keep your firearms safely stored in their premises). Mind you, regulations on transportation are really strict: whenever you're travelling, the gun can't be in the cabin with you, it needs to be in the boot with its bolt disassembled. Ammunition need to be with you at all time, not with the gun, pistols need to be disassembled on their main components etc.. again, this is the regulation in Europe.

Quote:

Eh? you say they don't regulate firearms then tell me to read the regulations..?
I meant they didn't go for further restrictions on firearms after the Cumbria shooting, which surprised me a bit.

Quote:

I don't care a lot about this topic. The reason I'm still here is because of the way you spoke to me, not to change your mind or to have mine changed.
I'm standing up for myself.



I cannot explain the British attitude to alcohol. It baffles me. It's a symptom of the same problem that caused the looting sprees, no prospects, no interest in the future, no concept of consequence and selfishness. There is a real 'screw you, I'll do what I want' attitude around at the moment.
Again we're off track here.. The British are a strangley self destructive race, I don't know why.
yeah, it's the double standard attitude that I don't get. Again, alcohol causes, directly or indirectly, loads of victims every year, but there's no public condemnation of it. Probably because it's too much of a business, like cars.. there's no real interest for the Government for your health, they just need to give the politically correct buff here and there, attacking easy minorities like gun collectors, whilst spending £1billion for a war that makes no sense in Afghanistan.. go figure!

Quote:

I just got lucky with my experience. I just tried the whole " I'll do what you want, just relax and don't shoot me" I also asked that he leave me my wallet and take the money and cards as the wallet was a gift from my dead mother (it was a gif but she's not dead!) I was basically trying to get him to slow down a bit so I could think..

He looked over his shoulder as he was taking the cards out of my wallet and at that point I just thought that if he looked over his shoulder again I'd hit him as hard and as fast as I could. He looked over his shoulder again and I ended up with a broken hand
yeah, that was a dangerous reaction but fortunately for you it worked :-) if this kind of crime is common in your area, I would really recommend to follow a Krav Maga course, it was developed by the Mossad and it's a very effective, no-nonsense defence technique.

Quote:

There is not right and wrong in everything. Is a pencil right or wrong? Or a duck? And who's right and wrong are we using? Yours or mine? (they may differ)

There is no right and wrong with guns. You've used the argument that guns are neither good nor bad, yet you're quite happy to put right and wrong into use when talking about them. Gun usage can never be classified by using such emotive terms as 'right and wrong'. Necessary or not necessary is the ony criteria.
Exactly, there's no right or wrong in things, it's the use that we make of them that is either right or wrong (which then again is subjective). As you said, there's nothing wrong with guns, what's wrong is the regulations and controls on the licensing. So the Government should fix that instead of prohibit them altogether.

Quote:

I dunno..
Because a Sitfire is a classic WW2 Warbird (which I like) and Enfield is a London borough (which I'm not as keen on)?
I'll tell you why, because the Spitfire became a symbol of propaganda, the Enfield instead, which served your countries for 2 world wars, was just a rifle.. there's never been glamour about firearms, but that's what won the war, a Spitfire was armed with machine guns and cannons, not good intentions. That's the "society hypocrisy" that I'm talking about.

Quote:

I'll sum up.. You like to own guns, I don't see the need to own one. You see the regulations as erroding your freedom. I just see it as another bit of legislation that doesn't affect me in any way.

Guess what, we probably like different foods, and football teams, and TV shows,

To say that you jumped all over my post because of the way I said it just sounds like a poor excuse for some poor behaviour.

All I said was I don't want more guns.

Can we move on now?
exactly, it doesn't affect you, but you should express sympathy to other citizens like you who are deprived of a right, and I mean this in a broad sense, not just related to firearms.

Of course we can move on, I'm sorry again if I came out very blunt in some bits, but my point is that as much as I respect other people's opinion, I want to understand where they come from, not just take them for granted and get them shoved down my throat, like the government does here.

Sternjaeger II 08-16-2011 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Timberwolf (Post 324185)
It's not the childs fault. I say the roots of the problem lay with the mother.
Yes she's a single parent and it's hard to correct a disorderly child. However Charging a 12 year old and having a juvenile record that could carry into adult-hood isn't going to correct him/her. Simply Taking the gift back and returning the item or holding it to a later date would of been my choice.
What the paper doesn't fill in are the 12 years of the childs life ..Where the father is or how many men have come and gone in his life How stable his background is or was. Therapy/counselling maybe in order.

Having Police as a man figure with authority is yet another draw back As the child only sees it and yet another man there to apply disciplined without any structure or value of reason
My 2 cents

that's another huge can of worms here.. they've learned to s**t out children to get benefits and they keep on doing it, so while they get everything paid for by the government, we, law abiding, working people, struggle to maintain our families because of this cancerous lump of people that do nothing and that we do have to pay for.

Sternjaeger II 08-16-2011 10:36 AM

example: http://uk.news.yahoo.com/hamster-kil...120811721.html

apart for the article per se, check out how much this scum gets in benefits. Un-friggin-believable :evil:

ATAG_Doc 08-17-2011 03:21 AM

Absolutely stunning.

winny 08-17-2011 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II (Post 324217)
I'm sorry if it all came out as patronising, it's a cultural thing I'm afraid, nothing personal, this is the way we talk in Italy and we don't mean to be patronising, but it comes out differently and the forum medium doesn't help either. You can't stop it mainly cos it's embarrassingly easy to smuggle stuff through, not in airports, but everywhere else.


ok, so you obviously find firearms fascinating but don't want the responsibility of having one in your household. Is that correct?


It's ok, I still enjoy using all my firearms when I'm back in Italy, it's not big deal to me, but I take several British friends to the shooting range, and they all were impressed by the culture and above all how there's pretty much no difference between a bolt action and semiauto rifle. The Enfield in particular, because of its spring loaded bolt action, is renown for its so called "mad minute", in which experienced shooters can deliver an impressive 30 rounds per minute hitting a target at 200 yards (the record, back in 1914, is of 38). Then again, a rimfire .22cal version of the ColtM4 or Car15 is available for sale, and that is too incredibly lethal.


for the semiauto see above, for the full auto I have a mixed feeling. The destructive potential of an automatic machine gun is big, there could be stricter regulations like you're not authorised to leave the shooting range with it (many shooting ranges offer the possibility to keep your firearms safely stored in their premises). Mind you, regulations on transportation are really strict: whenever you're travelling, the gun can't be in the cabin with you, it needs to be in the boot with its bolt disassembled. Ammunition need to be with you at all time, not with the gun, pistols need to be disassembled on their main components etc.. again, this is the regulation in Europe.


I meant they didn't go for further restrictions on firearms after the Cumbria shooting, which surprised me a bit.


yeah, it's the double standard attitude that I don't get. Again, alcohol causes, directly or indirectly, loads of victims every year, but there's no public condemnation of it. Probably because it's too much of a business, like cars.. there's no real interest for the Government for your health, they just need to give the politically correct buff here and there, attacking easy minorities like gun collectors, whilst spending £1billion for a war that makes no sense in Afghanistan.. go figure!



yeah, that was a dangerous reaction but fortunately for you it worked :-) if this kind of crime is common in your area, I would really recommend to follow a Krav Maga course, it was developed by the Mossad and it's a very effective, no-nonsense defence technique.


Exactly, there's no right or wrong in things, it's the use that we make of them that is either right or wrong (which then again is subjective). As you said, there's nothing wrong with guns, what's wrong is the regulations and controls on the licensing. So the Government should fix that instead of prohibit them altogether.


I'll tell you why, because the Spitfire became a symbol of propaganda, the Enfield instead, which served your countries for 2 world wars, was just a rifle.. there's never been glamour about firearms, but that's what won the war, a Spitfire was armed with machine guns and cannons, not good intentions. That's the "society hypocrisy" that I'm talking about.



exactly, it doesn't affect you, but you should express sympathy to other citizens like you who are deprived of a right, and I mean this in a broad sense, not just related to firearms.

Of course we can move on, I'm sorry again if I came out very blunt in some bits, but my point is that as much as I respect other people's opinion, I want to understand where they come from, not just take them for granted and get them shoved down my throat, like the government does here.

No problem, I like a good (civil) debate.

ATAG_Doc 08-17-2011 09:03 PM

I was only an average debater in school growing up. I just could never seem to master the technique.

Wolf_Rider 08-19-2011 12:08 PM

Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act depriving a whole nation of arms as the blackest.

- Mohandas Gandhi

unreasonable 08-19-2011 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by timej31 (Post 324697)
I was only an average debater in school growing up. I just could never seem to master the technique.

I find it hard to believe that 24 hours have gone by and no-one has yet succumbed to the temptation to say that based on the reasoning of your posts surely you must have been a master debater! :grin:

MD_Titus 08-20-2011 01:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II (Post 323818)
1Another BNP advocate.. sorry, I need to be here and contribute to your welfare society by offering my specialised work skills, paying taxes also to pay a lot of our fellow citizen who live off the state.. I dunno if this "you don't like it? You go back where you came from!" is because of the keyboard hero syndrome or because you really think so, well if you do you're not thinking in a democratic way. Where do you live exactly? In the countryside or in a big city? Pot is all over the place, fortunately illegal firearms aren't.

2.Again, another uninformed sheep that wants to win an argument with nothing.



3.nope, you would get arrested if you killed the guy or wounded him (cos yes, he could sue you for assault and say "I entered cos the door was open"), again, read your things better. Remember the Indian family in Birmingham who attacked the intruder with a cricket bat?

4.there you go, denial. Why you think they're putting age ratings on games? Do you think it's morally correct to play games about crime? Or let children play with it? You need to be able to discern from reality and fiction, but some people cant, getting more and more de-sensibilised in front of death and destruction.
Think of GTA series, is that a "good" game? And what if they made a game about rape or paedophilia? would that be ok cos it's only pixels? It should, since you think that homicide is ok if it's a videogame..


5.the British public was brainwashed cos it was convenient to the Government. You really don't get it do you? They don't trust you, they don't want you to be armed, there's cameras everywhere, but they're not there to prevent crime, they're there to gather evidence. It's all an illusion, and the unpredictability of the recent riots shows what could happen.

My hobbies don't contravene the law nor the spirit of the country, but then we're talking about a country where6. regularly some extremists burn poppies (symbol of all the fallen soldiers here in the UK) and your flags on the streets and you don't do anything about it.. it really boggles my mind!


7.You, being raised as a selfish individual who follows the flock, think there's no difference between the message given by a videogame and real life, because it's convenient to you, just like the way people get driving licenses here, it's a case of "hey, I need a car" not "hey, driving a car is a responsibility, maybe we should be stricter about it"..

Uh and btw sorry to disappoint, I still have access to firearms, and potentially I could bring most of my own collection here too, if you're not happy about it, talk to your Government..

1.i'm sorry what? BNP? ha! couldn't be further from the truth. mypoint is that you yearn for the firearms laws of home and bemoan the firearms laws of the land you currently reside in... within my own country, i would move where the weather or pubs were nicer, if i don't like an area i move. that is all i am suggesting.

2. more insults, nice.

3. now you're gettign it wrong. yes i very well remember the indian guy with the cricket bat. he and his family had been held hostage, he had been beaten by the intruders for... it was an hours long ordeal. relatives then arrived at the house, the intruders fled, and were pursued. the guy and a relative caught one of them. he thenwent back inside for the cricket bat and beat the intruder to within an inch of his life, leaving him with permanent brain injury. this very act for going back inside for a weapon turned it from self defence to a premeditated assault. i also recall the judge saying he had great sympathy for the indian guy, but had no choice in sentencing him because of this act.

4.you're losing coherence here. you're comparing playing warplanes with a paedo-simulator? really? dear me. GTA, for the record, is an excellent game.

5. i don't want to be armed. i don't want the police to routinely carry firearms. i can see too many opportunities for someone to be needlessly shot. i like these new taser things, non-lethal ftw.

6.oh that is just rubbish. regularly? do you read the mail or something? they declare they are going to do it, or apply to have a demo or somesuch, and it gets called off or denied - mission achieved, publicity.

7. if i am selfish, then mate - you're as bad if not worse. and as i've said, i like that we don't have gunfights. easier to access guns means a higher chance of them being in an idiots hands. and there's lots of idiots around. as for the driving bit... what?


basically, get at least some facts right and stop with such an insulting and whining tone. it'd be nice if you made the effort.

ATAG_Doc 09-07-2011 03:12 PM

I got to do it. BAM!!! Philadelphia freedom baby!

http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/...129312873.html

Vengeanze 09-07-2011 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by timej31 (Post 332642)
I got to do it. BAM!!! Philadelphia freedom baby!

http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/...129312873.html

I'll play.


Took a while to find an example in a country of 500 million people. :-D

ElAurens 09-07-2011 04:30 PM

Actually the numbers of attacks or attempted attacks that are foiled by folks in the US that can legally carry a fire arm in the the thousands per year, and most end without shots being fired.

Wolf_Rider 09-07-2011 09:46 PM

http://img.zamunda.net/bitbucket/Cro...20II%20(1).JPG




"That's not a gun... this, is a gun" :-D

ATAG_Doc 09-08-2011 01:10 AM

Help yourselves.
https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/cat.../true-stories/

My favorite stories are Pistol-packing Pastor Bags Teen Burglars and Ex-Lover Shot After Attempting Forcible Reconciliation.

Hood 09-08-2011 07:21 AM

http://www.gun-control-network.org/GF01.htm *

Blah blah blah, blah blah. Blah blah USA, blah UK. Blaaaaah blah blah blah. BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH!!!!

Conclusion - blah blah polarised blah blah.**



*Insert your own pro-gun website statistics site, whether verified or not.

**Insert your own arguments depending on whether you are pro or against gun control.

Vengeanze 09-08-2011 07:46 AM

Didn't we agreed that I was right? Why this bumping then?

Hunden 09-08-2011 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vengeanze (Post 322690)
...or clone my wife and equip every home with one.

http://fleshymeninpolyester.files.wo...gly-woman4.jpg

LMAO I would hide that picture if I were you and never show it again, I pictured her in white pants, UGRH!!!!!!

Hunden 09-08-2011 04:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MD_Titus (Post 322730)
then a lot of the rioters could have been equally armed.

would've been carnage.

so far one guy was shot dead (gang related apparently) thsoe three blokes that got hit by a car and a couple of bystanders (not rioters or police) have gotten a kicking.

Less guns= less deaths= more people= more polution=less resources=less food= more suffering:confused:

MD_Titus 09-08-2011 09:06 PM

Lol!

Okay, but make reduction of population less random?

BadAim 09-08-2011 09:38 PM

I too believe very strongly in gun control.....Everyone who owns a gun should go to a good small arms school and learn how to control their gun. I like ASAA.

Hunden 09-08-2011 09:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MD_Titus (Post 333474)
Lol!

Okay, but make reduction of population less random?

Genocide would fit that discription.

ATAG_Doc 09-08-2011 10:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hunden (Post 333296)
LMAO I would hide that picture if I were you and never show it again, I pictured her in white pants, UGRH!!!!!!


That's like flying the G50 in this sim. Might be lots of fun but I wouldn't want to be caught flying it nor have any video / film evidence that I was.

Hunden 09-08-2011 10:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by timej31 (Post 333500)
That's like flying the G50 in this sim. Might be lots of fun but I wouldn't want to be caught flying it nor have any video / film evidence that I was.

Adventurous huh, it would take an 18 pack .............. no make that a state of unconsciousness with no memory of :grin:

MD_Titus 09-09-2011 07:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hunden (Post 333495)
Genocide would fit that discription.

But that's fine if it reduces suffering, right?

More like euthanasia, right?


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