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you have me at a bit of a loss there andyjwest... get over what?
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Note how some US contributors to this thread have changed the argument (and I have summarised rather than respond to specific posts because there are so many):
- The main point at issue has been whether restrictive gun laws, in the UK, are, on balance, a good thing, given the context of the recent youth riots. - Generally US contributors have said that the UK laws are not a good thing, since they mean that good citizens are limited in their ability to defend themselves against bad citizens, or against tyrannical government. - Generally UK contributors have said that the UK laws are a good thing, since they prefer to be unarmed, which is an increasingly untenable position in an armed society, and they believe that the threats of crime and tyranny are better addressed through the normal workings of constitutional monarchy. So far so reasonable..... - There has been no comment from Euro contributors (that I have noticed), about the right of US citizens to decide their own gun laws, own guns in the US, or the desirability or feasibility of the US moving to a gun law system similar to that of the UK. - In contrast, some US contributors have held up the specific premises of the US political system as though they were universal truths: in particular the premises that disarming the people must necessarily lead to tyranny, and that democracy is always just mob rule. In my view this point of view fails to take into account the specific history, culture and background of different societies. Just because something is "self-evident" to you, it does not make it "self-evident" to everyone else, or for that matter " a fact". But at least these issue should be capable of being addressed by rational discourse with a minimum of rhetoric. - And yet some US contributors (if the cap fits, wear it) have reacted angrily as though their own rights are under attack in their own country, and resorted to extraordinary vitriol, questioning the age, motivations, courage and and knowledge of those voicing contrary views through a barrage of ad hominem attacks and smears by association. Shame on you! :mad: |
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Again, I can still own and shoot most firearms here, so I don't see what you're on about :confused: Quote:
Again, another uninformed sheep that wants to win an argument with nothing. Quote:
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Think of GTA series, is that a "good" game? And what if they made a game about rape or paedophilia? would that be ok cos it's only pixels? It should, since you think that homicide is ok if it's a videogame.. Quote:
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Uh and btw sorry to disappoint, I still have access to firearms, and potentially I could bring most of my own collection here too, if you're not happy about it, talk to your Government.. |
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Fact, the more guns the more people get killed.
London riots were shocking but I find it incredible that so few were injured or killed. |
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What was shocking to me about the riots is seeing that they were allowed to carry on for DAYS, and mind you, I'm not blaming the cops on the streets, cos they have no support or adequate directives from the chain of command, it's the system that is utterly inadequate. |
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it's surprising btw how the ones without firearms are way more violent and offensive than the armed ones, tells a lot about the spirits really..
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2nd amendment is not about freedom as a hole but freedom to bear firearms. A major difference there. When talking to pro-guns I get the feeling that they think I want to severely limit their freedom which is totally wrong - just a tiny bit of it. ;-) Reason I highlight the year the 2nd amendment was adopted is because life was different back then. People needed guns to hunt and protect them selfs from wild animals plus that the lawenforcement system was more or less non existing compared to today. I totally support the right to bear arms in 1791 and actually I support it for people who live lifes similar to back then (like some distant places like Alaska). However, I can't see the need for a gun when living uptown Dallas (as an example). |
Sternjaeger II, you really don't have the faintest clue what you are talking about. Troll elsewhere.
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Glad to see the spirit of the old PL coming back. I predict Nearmiss will get his hands full shortly. :-D |
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So:
US - guns are good because you can defend yourself plus it's a right and you don't want to let that right go because that's giving in to the government. High gun crime but less petty crime per capita. UK - guns are bad but you pretty much never need to defend yourself. Most people have never owned guns or been involved with or threatened with them so don't really mind laws against them as it isn't a big deal. Not a lot of gun crime but more petty crime. Italy - same as the US with minor differences. Less gun and petty crime. To summarise I've looked at various websites with various stats. I have no idea if they're correct or not and I can't bother quoting them as everyone can look themselves. For the US I have no doubt that gun crime in some areas is high and in others non existent. You can't really consider the US as in many ways it is 50 different countries. What was suprising is that per capita Sweden and Switzerland came out quite high up, though with small populations any gun crime will bump the figures up. And despite the tragedy of Norway and its currently bad gun crime rating (and just typing that makes me curse myself for almost trivialising the tragedy) it is a fantastic beautiful place with friendly, generous and great people; it just has its share of malcontents or lunatics. Just like everywhere else really. Anyway, this started off about the UK riots. They're done and dusted now and we won't see them again for a long time. Can we shoot this thread in the head? Hood |
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Very seldom are the victims innocent. Instead we're going for world domination by selling furnitures with hidden intelligence in em. |
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We also have a lot of burglary happening, mostly done by desperate immigrants and low life scum. There have been cases in northern Italy where whole families were tied, beaten and in some cases raped while they were robbing their house, something a la Clockwork Orange. Now after that experience, how can you tell the victims "no need to arm yourselves"? Police can't be everywhere all the time, it's a fact. And yes, there are the random individuals that shoot themselves and/or the family, but killing crime is mostly done by other means, and knives are still often the weapon of choice, cos they're there and easy to use in a raptus. Shall we ban knives from households? :rolleyes: As someone else said, guns are just tools, which can also be used to stop and prevent crime. Example: if I walk on a road and see an armed police officer, I will think twice before getting into the shop and robbing it, because if I do it and get out, I will likely get my a** shot. If I'm in the same situation and see an unarmed police officer, I will be more tempted, cos I can leg it. Fighting crime needs to be an uneven and unfair one, police needs to be stronger than the average criminal, otherwise it's just a farse. |
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Having just watched the PM's speech on the telly, I get the impression that Mr Cameron is trying to tap into that mood and attempt a turn around in the state of British society. I wish him all the best, but suspect that the established forces defending the status quo will be too strong.:( |
Linking crime and guns... well, all banning (another prohibition) guns does, is to make them more expensive on a blackmarket and give the owners a status.
Gangs still do drive-by attacks in countries where guns are banned. |
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I mean, what's the limit of crap one can get before rebelling? It's insane. The answer is not to arm the citizens, but to re-design the police forces around the needs of a modern society. The right to have firearms should have nothing to do with public order. |
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Once again, your beloved government just had the courage to propose to shut down social networks in case other riots happen.. don't you really see what they're trying to do to your freedom?? :confused: |
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(Unless you are just being satirical :confused:) |
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The right to have a firearm (if deemed suitable for it by a competent panel) should be there regardless of your belief/interest in firearms. Depriving citizens of their rights won't make a society safer,it will only boost crime, see what happened with proibitionism. What really scares me is that the Orwellian view of modern society is becoming a sad reality in Britain: they don't want you to think, they give you the illusion of freedom and then do what they want with you. It's sad, but it's a one way ticket to a sad, sad future, human nature is capable of too many perverted things to be contained like that :( |
What? We all gonna hug now? Be sure I won't turn my back to that aft hunter. ;-)
We need a new topic! |
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I'm also glad to see that UK citizens are now labelled sheep just because we hold a view that does not agree with those of a minority or non-UK citizens, and that we all like Jordan. I would... but only after a few pints... But I don't drink so that's another stereotype I fail to fit into. It is also disappointing to see democracy via a majority equated to Nazi Germany. Stern, please dial back your rhetoric because passionate or not you're just starting to insult people that just so happen to hold a different view from you. That their posts lack tact doesn't really excuse anybody responding in kind. Baaaaah (I would... but only when I'm in my wellies...) Hood |
I will offer one reason why myself and my countrymen are so easily upset about the reaction to fireams ownership by those who are not citizens of the US.
There is a resolution working it's way through the United Nations that in effect would ban private ownership of firearms worldwide, thus abrogating the national soverenity (sorry about spelling, not had my tea yet) of signatory nations. American gun owners are very aware of this effort of the UN and it will be a cause of much consternation when the international community trys to interfere with the people and laws of the US. Have a good week gents, I'm off to work. |
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The reason of course was that only this degree of state mobilization of the nations resources could save the country from being gobbled up by the Germans. I am sure most would agree that this was a very real threat, and not some conspiracy theory invented by the establishment in order to boost their power. Then once this new equilibrium was established, the majority of the population decided that it preferred the new deal. There was no going back. Personally I can live with that - my take is that all developing countries sooner or later have to co-opt the majority of the population into their economic systems through some mechanism of positive rights and redistribution, otherwise development stops. The UK just did it very abruptly due to war - other states have done it as a response to the threat of revolution or economic stagnation. The problem then becomes how to manage the moral hazard or free-rider problem, when there is a growing constituency of welfare providers who increase the size of their power base by calling for "more resources", and so are not motivated to restrict the distribution of public funds. Sadly the police seem, in some respects, to have been co-opted by this group. I am not convinced that there is any answer to this problem except that of a major moral revolution spurred by a religious revival, which brings its own disadvantages, to put it mildly, (speaking as an unbeliever). |
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An erie silence falls over the field. Peace in our time? :-P |
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I agree with your sentiments though I'm pretty sure that the international community will not be able to "force" the US to comply. For my part the UK lost its sovereignty a while back and I just love seeing my taxes not being used in the UK but going to help shore up the economies of other European countries. Personally I'd go down the Norwegian route of being in the European Economic Area but that's part of a debate that's bigger than this forum and a little bit further away than the riots. Hood |
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And lets be fair, those pesky blacks had it coming. Right? :confused: |
Cross-reading the thread, looking for some monday amusement, I thank some of you to remind me of what happy enviroment I am living.
A shooting here and there, someone occasionally stabbed in the train, a violant robbery (experience that myself, I am today quite happy I didn´t have easy access to a gun, these days, after being released from hopital - I am not sure if I wouldn´t have used it in revenge), but afterall I do not have to live in a constant state of fear, that I only feel safe, while wearing a gun. Serving my time during the Kosovo-conflict, I spent enough time wearing guns and rifles in public, day and night, even while shopping. That days I experienced that some usually nice, kind fellows, started to act strange over the time. I thought that the given power corrupted their character and they were somewhat different, while wearing these guns - and switched to normal again, as soon as the weapons, where locked safe again. Anyhow, the day I would only feel safe in my enviroment with a gun, I would pack all my belongings into my sailing boat a leave. As some of you are talking about freedom, there is no such thing - only the big streams and seas of this world. So do you really feel that you live a free world, if this world makes you believe, you are safer, with the power of a gun? |
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sales of baseball bats in the U.K. increased by over 6,000 percent
Batter up!
"sales of baseball bats in the U.K. suddenly increased by over 6,000 percent last week" http://www.tennessean.com/article/20...ment-s-failure |
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by the way your sentence "only the big streams and seas of this world" could be turned into : Only the big bubbling clouds and clear skies of this world ... ;-) |
Well, I first thought so and started my glider-plane license when I was 14, until I found out, that you need at least 40+ guys on the ground, for the one guy flying and that you cannot let go a fart, without asking for permisssion or a detailed plan. That wasn´t the freedom I was looking for and I quit after 4 years, just when I was about to make my third wing and turned back to where I came from - the waters... ;)
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14514429
"What we've witnessed this week has been British policing at its absolute best" really?! It's obvious that someone somewhere must have lost a couple of episodes in the saga of modern society.. |
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Hood |
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"Where are the police? They are overwhelmed by the volume and brazenness of the outbreaks. They are also constrained in their response by what appears on the surface to be modern Western restraint, but is in fact a symptom of the modern evasion of social realities that we lamely call “political correctness.” The British welfare system has bred personal responsibility out of the class that has become dependent on it; and the shortsighted immigration system has failed to integrate the foreign communities it has created within." the author nailed it and out of the lack of personal responsibiities comes the need for others (higher ups) to be responsible for them... the beginnings of the Orwellian state by stealth |
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Democracy lets people with different opinions vote for what they want. Remember, you're the one who told me that because I disagreed with you I was un-democratic - It is not me who has a distroted sense of democracy it is you. Quote:
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Because I don't agree with you you assume I'm a sheep? I said STFU because you called me "selfish, discriminatory and anti-democratic" and I am none of these things and it made me angry. I am just expressing my personal view and I decided I wouldn't like more relaxed gun laws in the UK. I like it as it is. Quote:
I have the freedom to not want more guns in the UK - You are a hypocrite. No matter how much you dislike it.. I don't want more guns in the UK. Now leave me to the freedom of my own opinion. Like I already said if it's that important to you then start campaigning for mre relaxed gun laws. Go to your MP. You'll find that you are in the minority, and the way democracy currently works that means you just have to deal with it. |
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The change of the UK industry is a mystery to me: take the automobile industry, yes, you never really made anything impressive out of it (apart for one or two luxury brands), but with the improvement of technologies and with the foreign know-how, you could have kept a strong independence on that. The problem is that, as usual, British engineering is a bit too much revolutionary, and apart for one off stuff like the Mini, you came up with abortion like the Robin Reliant. but I digress, I think that considering the actual situation, the UK economy is one of the strongest and less handicapped of the planet (Germany and France could probably be better, but they're crippled by the Euro). |
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"an elegant weapon for a more civilized age" ;) Cheers! |
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Anger is a dangerous feeling, it's instinct, we can't really get rid of it, but we can control it. I haven't said I don't want to listen to your opinion cos I want more guns, I am here to listen, so please, explain me why you don't want more guns in the UK. Quote:
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I don't get why a Spitfire is better than an Enfield anyway, but I'm sure you have an explanation for it. |
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I wonder how long it will take before we'll need a license for a bat.. |
as I was saying...
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This thread is pretty well done. It amazes me how people can keep re-hashing the same discussion over and over.
Regardless, as long as it's on the topic I guess we'll wait until every living soul on this forum as posted here. |
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I'm done here. Think I managed to convert a couple of souls with my eloquent argumentation. ;-) |
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Basically I just don't want more lethal weapons in the UK. I'm quite happy with the current laws. I have kids, It's a personal choice, I've not been swayed by anyone. I'm not particularly anti gun, just happy with the way things are. Quote:
Alcohol? Did prohibition not happen in your world? If you want to see democracy in action try banning Alcohol in the UK... -Never gonna happen- Quote:
I wasn't particularly shocked no. 1st time it happend I was in a Post office, I was a customer, armed robbers came in, they had a sawn off, I just did what I was told. 2nd time was an attempted mugging. I didn't get shot, he didn't get my wallet. I think I broke his jaw but I didn't hang around to find out. Quote:
I don't see why I should have to defend and justify my position on this to someone I don't know. I'm entitled to my opinion. As for freedom, what freedom? there are 100's of laws you must abide to. Do we just change or get rid of the ones you don't like? Why not get rid of them all then we'll all be 100% free. Guns or no Guns is a question of preference, not right and wrong. You have tried to turn it into right and wrong and have been pretty offensive too. You would not act this way if I was in the room. |
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I'm sorry, and I'm not taking the mick, it's still not clear why you're against firearms. Quote:
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One of the things I've done in my life and that I'm very grateful for is following a Krav Maga course, and I (unfortunately) put it to use in 3 different situations. Of these three, only one was under a firearm threat, and I've surprised myself on how quickly I reacted. I was at a light with my window down, a guy runs towards me as he was crossing the road and points a gun at my face shouting me to get out: I raised my hands, quickly grabbed the pistol and pushed it towards my windscreen, jamming it with his hand between my window and the windscreen, then moved forward until he let go. I drove to the closest police station, got in and handed what I only then realised was a blank firing gun. We all have our horror stories, that's why I prefer living in the quiet British countryside. Quote:
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You still haven't told me why a Spitfire is better than an Enfield. |
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If the guy likes the current laws in the UK then he likes them, it does not make his opinion wrong or bad. |
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As for the second amendment, I'm afraid you are missing the context. The second amendment was certainly about freedom as a whole, as a matter of fact it's the second amendment that ensures all of the others. You have to remember the context, mate. We had just tossed out the Brits by force of arms for infringing on our freedoms, of course the second amendment was about freedom. The founding fathers held as a given that free men had the absolute right to defend themselves, and that free communities had the right to band together to defend their communities (the militia), that's why the bill of rights was added later......it was simply unfinished business. (business that the original framers considered self evident). You may disagree, but I certainly don't feel like we live in a safer world than they did. The majority of the framers of the constitution were rarely in danger of bear attacks, and I doubt many of them hunted except for sport. The predators they were concerned about were the two legged kind, both the typical dark alleyway variety and the political oppressor type. None of that has changed, if anything it has gotten worse. I happen to like a lot of you guys, even if I think that your political views are divorced from reality. I don't believe that guns are the answer to all of your problems, but I don't believe they are the cause of any of them. |
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I know guns are imported, I'm not (as you may have thought) stupid. I know that the main route into Manchester for Guns in the 80's and 90's was through the use of baggage handelrs at Manchester airport who were also being paid by the gangs. I know you can't stop it. Quote:
I'm sorry that this 'catch all' law means you can't shoot stuff, but for every responsible firearms person there will be someone who isn't as responsible. I share the same concerns,but you're assuming I'm 'against' firearms, I'm not. I just don't see the need for anyone to own a semi or fully automatic weapon in the UK, or a handgun for that matter. If anything I'd like to see illegal possesion more firmly punnished. Quote:
I don't care a lot about this topic. The reason I'm still here is because of the way you spoke to me, not to change your mind or to have mine changed. I'm standing up for myself. Quote:
Again we're off track here.. The British are a strangley self destructive race, I don't know why. Quote:
I just got lucky with my experience. I just tried the whole " I'll do what you want, just relax and don't shoot me" I also asked that he leave me my wallet and take the money and cards as the wallet was a gift from my dead mother (it was a gif but she's not dead!) I was basically trying to get him to slow down a bit so I could think.. He looked over his shoulder as he was taking the cards out of my wallet and at that point I just thought that if he looked over his shoulder again I'd hit him as hard and as fast as I could. He looked over his shoulder again and I ended up with a broken hand Quote:
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There is no right and wrong with guns. You've used the argument that guns are neither good nor bad, yet you're quite happy to put right and wrong into use when talking about them. Gun usage can never be classified by using such emotive terms as 'right and wrong'. Necessary or not necessary is the ony criteria. Quote:
Because a Sitfire is a classic WW2 Warbird (which I like) and Enfield is a London borough (which I'm not as keen on)? I'll sum up.. You like to own guns, I don't see the need to own one. You see the regulations as erroding your freedom. I just see it as another bit of legislation that doesn't affect me in any way. Guess what, we probably like different foods, and football teams, and TV shows, To say that you jumped all over my post because of the way I said it just sounds like a poor excuse for some poor behaviour. All I said was I don't want more guns. Can we move on now? |
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I do have one question though, was the picture intended to represent the offenders or the coppers? |
Britons, your government says you will submit. You will bow to their whim. No matter how stupid they act.
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You have to understand, these seemingly harmless squirt gun fights almost always escalate into something serious. A spray here, a splash there, then someone pulls out a can of silly string in retaliation. Next thing you know, water balloons are being hurled indiscrimately. I won't go into further details as this is a forum accessable by children, but you can review the last 100 years of the Roman Empire to get an idea of where this all leads to.
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Throwing water has two meanings in Sweden - throwing water(!) and taking a leak. You can understand the mayhem when a pack of rioters gathers of which 50% brought water.
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Indeed: it is imperative that citizens stand up to prevent this kind of degeneracy, as per this fine piece of citizen action (from thesmokinggun.com):
"DECEMBER 5--A South Carolina boy, 12, was arrested Sunday morning after his mother called police to report that he had unwrapped a Christmas present without her permission. According to a Rock Hill Police Department report, the child opened a Nintendo Game Boy, though he had been directed not to by family members. When the boy's mother learned that the $85 gift had been opened, she called cops, who charged the juvenile with petty larceny. In an interview with The Herald newspaper, the boy's mother, a 27-year-old single parent, described her son as a disruptive child, noting that she hoped his arrest would serve as a corrective to disorderly behavior at school and home." |
On further reflection: I cannot help wondering whether the charge of opening one's box before one should could be equally directed at the single mother.
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Yes she's a single parent and it's hard to correct a disorderly child. However Charging a 12 year old and having a juvenile record that could carry into adult-hood isn't going to correct him/her. Simply Taking the gift back and returning the item or holding it to a later date would of been my choice. What the paper doesn't fill in are the 12 years of the childs life ..Where the father is or how many men have come and gone in his life How stable his background is or was. Therapy/counselling maybe in order. Having Police as a man figure with authority is yet another draw back As the child only sees it and yet another man there to apply disciplined without any structure or value of reason My 2 cents |
Well, that is far from topic, but in some cultures it is common to become mother with 14 years, but I would guess that rather fits to surroundings with a less amount of influences and distractions, and close bound cultural roles and relations inside a community - all things that does not fit into our modern, western world.
Poor girl, poor boy. |
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Of course we can move on, I'm sorry again if I came out very blunt in some bits, but my point is that as much as I respect other people's opinion, I want to understand where they come from, not just take them for granted and get them shoved down my throat, like the government does here. |
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example: http://uk.news.yahoo.com/hamster-kil...120811721.html
apart for the article per se, check out how much this scum gets in benefits. Un-friggin-believable :evil: |
Absolutely stunning.
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I was only an average debater in school growing up. I just could never seem to master the technique.
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Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act depriving a whole nation of arms as the blackest.
- Mohandas Gandhi |
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2. more insults, nice. 3. now you're gettign it wrong. yes i very well remember the indian guy with the cricket bat. he and his family had been held hostage, he had been beaten by the intruders for... it was an hours long ordeal. relatives then arrived at the house, the intruders fled, and were pursued. the guy and a relative caught one of them. he thenwent back inside for the cricket bat and beat the intruder to within an inch of his life, leaving him with permanent brain injury. this very act for going back inside for a weapon turned it from self defence to a premeditated assault. i also recall the judge saying he had great sympathy for the indian guy, but had no choice in sentencing him because of this act. 4.you're losing coherence here. you're comparing playing warplanes with a paedo-simulator? really? dear me. GTA, for the record, is an excellent game. 5. i don't want to be armed. i don't want the police to routinely carry firearms. i can see too many opportunities for someone to be needlessly shot. i like these new taser things, non-lethal ftw. 6.oh that is just rubbish. regularly? do you read the mail or something? they declare they are going to do it, or apply to have a demo or somesuch, and it gets called off or denied - mission achieved, publicity. 7. if i am selfish, then mate - you're as bad if not worse. and as i've said, i like that we don't have gunfights. easier to access guns means a higher chance of them being in an idiots hands. and there's lots of idiots around. as for the driving bit... what? basically, get at least some facts right and stop with such an insulting and whining tone. it'd be nice if you made the effort. |
I got to do it. BAM!!! Philadelphia freedom baby!
http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/...129312873.html |
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Took a while to find an example in a country of 500 million people. :-D |
Actually the numbers of attacks or attempted attacks that are foiled by folks in the US that can legally carry a fire arm in the the thousands per year, and most end without shots being fired.
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Help yourselves.
https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/cat.../true-stories/ My favorite stories are Pistol-packing Pastor Bags Teen Burglars and Ex-Lover Shot After Attempting Forcible Reconciliation. |
http://www.gun-control-network.org/GF01.htm *
Blah blah blah, blah blah. Blah blah USA, blah UK. Blaaaaah blah blah blah. BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH!!!! Conclusion - blah blah polarised blah blah.** *Insert your own pro-gun website statistics site, whether verified or not. **Insert your own arguments depending on whether you are pro or against gun control. |
Didn't we agreed that I was right? Why this bumping then?
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Lol!
Okay, but make reduction of population less random? |
I too believe very strongly in gun control.....Everyone who owns a gun should go to a good small arms school and learn how to control their gun. I like ASAA.
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That's like flying the G50 in this sim. Might be lots of fun but I wouldn't want to be caught flying it nor have any video / film evidence that I was. |
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More like euthanasia, right? |
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