I wonder if the devs have seen this thread.

personally i want a smooth gameplay and a realism
if in true life the needles don't dance i have no problem with that:-)
but i want a sim as real as its get:grin:

Have a look at this Glorious video Full screen 720HD.

About 2:20 in a cockpit shot of a Hudson ... all engine instruments rock steady.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIK04PA0d9U

I love the video IvanK! thank you

Make a poll, guys !

gee, look at the hues of the countryside...

have ya got a vid of the Hurricane which represented ingame of the same era?

:shock:

That`s exactly the point. ;) It should be displayed and implemented as close to the available data as possible. Do not let some players decide, so a poll is exactly what the developers should NOT do. It is not getting right, if it is repeated thousend times.


So please refrain from changes like this...
* Completely removed overload assessment from carburetters. Rolls-Royce engines will now cut if overload is negative, and will not cut if it is positive. (old values were sneezing at .5G, and cut-out at .25 which we felt were dead on, but this apparently confused most of the players)
... only because some players felt confused. Please stick to your data and sound engineering practise. :cool:

Greetings
SNAFU

Realism above all. Players should learn the how and why the 'real' aircraft behaved, not complain because it doesn't suit their abilities

LOL its Outback NSW in Australia ! dont think the hues here remotely resemble Europe :)

yeah, well... they didn't call it New South Wales because it was similar to the Arizona desert, IvanK ;) outback or not :grin:


Orange, NSW

http://www.orange-nsw.com/files/Abou...LakeCanobA.jpg

Ha! Not much of it looks like South Wales to me, new or not! Although it has been pretty wet this last year...

+1! Realism is a must! Or make it optional at least for the causal players. :)

Keep it real for god's sake. Whilst waiting for the new patch it gave me time to train properly on engine start ups etc. After 10 years doing this I finally sat down and really took the time to read all the posts of those more dedicated folk. Now just waiting for the multiplayer to be fixed so I can put it all to the test.

This is probably because early VSIs were not instantaneous, and lagged a bit behind what the aircraft was actually doing. IVSIs, or Instant Vertical Speed Indicators are relatively newer than what these aircraft would have had.

It was on the PS. Previous page (page 20)


I am sorry I can not express an opinion since I have never seen a plane with mechanical instruments so I keep my mouth shut, unlike the dozens of "experts" here who decided to fly the banner of needles-realism high, without actually knowing what they are talking about!

Awesome group dynamics but, please gents, use your brains more and less your emotions!

REALISM IS GOOD I am 100% percent behind you guys! But as I said dozens of posts ago, who on earth said that mechanical needles jumped as much in reality???
The people who have seen mechanical instruments in their life said the opposite! (at least in the posts I read, if you have other, I am keen to read)

Uther said it clearly, this thread should stick to REALISM and not needless needles discussions!


Sorry for jumping hard but when I tried mildly nobody understood the message. Probably the lack of experience in "face-saving" excersises (the mechanical-electrical discussion) and the eagerness of people to fight for a good cause, makes everybody jumping around without looking at the underlying facts.



PS #1. Polls!? No polls! What kind of poll will this be? All the mechanical needles experts will decide on what is realistic for a 1939 aircraft instrument? Needless...


PS #2. If you want to make yourselves useful, check where the Revi gunsight (Bf109) points at (press Shift-F1 first!), with and without cockpit, and then tell me how realistic this is... (just to spare you the headache: http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.ph...ml#Post3271206 )


Happy Flying!

~S~

I have as well. What vehicle are you talking about? I must admit, I haven't really flown the Spit in CoD, but if the bounce is between 100-150 RPMs, it can't be too far off. At least that's what the aircraft I used to run up used to have, and that's with electrical gauges mostly.

mmmm nuh, not what I could see... did miss something?

I can only speak for myself, but I think the majority of the "keep it real" crowd has the same opinion.
It's not about jumping needles, if mechanic instruments don't jump around, then keep them mechanic and remove/reduce the jumping.

It's about changes that are made based on feelings of people, not based on hard facts:

* Adjusted magnetic compass damping to match the characteristics of a Soviet A-4
compass, as many were unhappy with its present wobbling;

* Replaced every tachometer in every British and Italian plane with an electrical type, since some people find needle movement on the mechanical type not what they expected.

* Completely removed overload assessment from carburetters. Rolls-Royce engines will now cut if overload is negative, and will not cut if it is positive. (old values were sneezing at .5G, and cut-out at .25 which we felt were dead on, but this apparently confused most of the players)

Damn! I was too late... ROFL

Spot on! Every single word proves the point!

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=21667


I will enjoy this one, with lot's of humour :-)

Happy Flying guys ! Nice to have a simulation to talk about!

~S~

I thought the bouncy gauges one of the saving graces of the game on first release!

+1 if they cant use real, use HUD....

Personally I believe there was some needle bounce on some instruments like the mechanical RPM counter, however in the game as it was it was a little to excessive and needed to be toned down but that said gauges that do bounce normally the true reading is in the centre of the maximum and minimum range of bounce which people who operate/drive machinery off-road or who have raced 4x4 or bikes etc off-road will be able to tell you that they all do even electric ones unless there a digital display.

Therefore if the virtual mechanical gauge has been replaced with a virtual electro mechanical one I would STILL expect some bounce at extremes of vibration or during fluctuating prop load like bobbing in and out of the wake turbulence/slipstream/prop wash wile chasing down an opponent when close behind them etc.

again, you talk about needles, how about some aspects of flight model? rudders for instance?

+1 for realism

+1

+ 1 Trillion^Tetrillion

I now find it so much less immersive with this unsensitive merlin that doesn't shake at all and runs like a modern bmw car engine with active vibration damping devices. If ppl cannot handle realism they just need to switch realism options off. But leave realism for us real simmers.

+1 to Realism, with the options for news for change in the settings :)

For the pro Needle bouncers have a look at this track about 3:17 in .... no bounce just a tiny little bit of hunting after they reach 2050 RPM and thats pretty much what we have now in CLOD. So 2 videos so far validating the lack of needle bounce.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3u5p...eature=related

So the realism with respect needle bounce (or lack thereof) has actually been improved !

do you have one of the Hurricane (OEM equipment for the period ingame) though?

Just think about the old mechanical speedometers from back when cars were good.
This works the same way. The needle bounce seemed way over exaggerated.

A very slight wobble seems correct and only a large wobble would occur if the cable was incorrectly installed or damaged. The mechanical type would snap eventually if this was the case.

I don't know much about the gauges from back then but I would be surprised if they were not oil dampened to further reduce wobble.

Not a hurricane, but reference the mad bouncing ASI and Altimeter - look over the pilot's shoulder here - a small wobble, but by no means the mad bouncing that we see in game:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...l97XwktE#t=88s

W.

Good video ... there the next thing to work on I guess ... but you know if they are changed there will be ASI/ALT needle bounce withdrawal hysteria :)

There is an exceptional commercial DVD off Hurricane R4118 I doing a display with split screen in the pit looking at the panel (not over the shoulder) and the outside world from the camera gun port in the starboard wing. It shows a similar thing. there is a little ASI wobble, next to no altimeter wobble and a good indication of AH precession as well, which implies that AH precession is a little overdone at the moment. Instrumentation is all original too boot.

http://www.itvv.com/product/R4118

The Devs are aware of this DVD.

realisim please! that's why we buy the game.

i will not buy future installments if you do away with historical features simply because some don't "get" it.

+1 for realism, for whatever it is (I am no expert on bouncy meters :D )

-Untamo

Clearly there is an argument over the bouncing needles. I would have thought that the sensible thing, which I think has been posted already, would be to give us the choice in the realism options.

Same goes for negative G issue on the Rolls Royce engine.

I appreciate that you have to keep the game accessible. However, there is no reason you cant please everyone.

You have to remember nearly everyone here bought this sim for the realism and authenticity we've come to expect. To mess with that seems silly.

I would just like to say thank you for the last patch. Apart from the radio issues, I can now play the game!

Keep up the good work!!

Can you tell the exact model of the tachometer?

Here's another one, BUT comparing with a plane present in the simulator, the Tiger Moth...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=af29TuO5THQ

I don't know what you see here, I see a very imprecise, vibrating and bouncing needle...

I have to say I've flown in a Tiger Moth with even bouncier needles!

They shake a bit and hunt but the in game bouncing 'is' a little extreme, and they bounce the same way if the engine coughs or if you hit turbulence, I would only expect an instrument to bounce like that landing on a grass strip. etc......needs to be toned down IMO, that shouldn't mean taking away realism by making RPM electric......just fix the exessive bounce.

looking at the Tiger Moth Needle movement, it was previousley overmodelled - I cannnot see any problem if 'instrument flutter' were closer to the vid. I would hardly call it imprecise and in some brief shots pretty steady for an old bird. Good vid and puts this argument to bed

the only argument retirer will be exactly what the tacho on the era plane/s was doing...

we've seen everything but

What I can see from the Moth vid and comparing to prepatch game is that the oscillation speeds were perhaps considerably overdone. The amplitude was perhaps not thaaaat bad. Just look at the rpm gauge where you can see the needle sway during inflight. The gauge can be seen a tiny bit on the left side and there's also the needle. I'd say the needle swayed gently with an amplitude of 2 subscale markings each way which corresponds to an amplitude of 1000 rpms. The frequency was perhaps 1.5 to 2 sec.

Another thing unfortunately going away from realism imho is that post patch there's no more pushing back into the seat under high positive g-loads. Yesterday I did some extensive trials with the spit and how strong I ever pulled on the stick at whatever speed the revi remained where it was. Only when pushing the revi moves in the horizontal axis but not at all when pulling. Ok, perhaps the pushing into the seat was overdone before but this should not result into completely removing it.

+1 for realism.

I haven't tested the sim yet so I'm not even commenting on needles or negative G's. What I can say is that a historically accurate simulator must be as close to reality as is reasonably possible. We can't put GPS in the planes just because somebody who lacks the patience is unable to navigate for example.

Looks great from what i've seen though.

+1 Keep the realism.

Great Video on the Tiger Moth. Some observations.

Tacho gyrations certainly are wild after start. With Flex/Direct drive tachos I would anticipate some fluctuations on start as the drive "takes up the slack" of going from 0 RPM to whatever the throttle position/ Idle would be. Same goes when rapidly selecting idle. These Tachos tend to exhibit more "bounce" at the lower RPM settings. If the drive cable is frayed and or damaged then fluctuations tend to be more evident. (Source Chief engineer of Flying museum in Aus).

Taxying again bounce is pretty wild in the vid.... no idea why unless terrain is affecting it ?

On Take off the tacho is pretty steady with variations of perhaps +- 50 thats all. these increase a little during acceleration as the RPM increase with increasing IAS, but again pretty small

In the cruise (3:56 in the vid) again very small bounces in the order of +- 50 RPM max.

On Final approach around 600RPM the bounce is again very small+-50 RPM.

So the vid shows wild gyrations on startup but at constant power settings and IAS pretty small variations.

Similar variation is seen in Blenheim MKIV tacho. At idle the tacho "bounce" is around +- 70 RPM but in flight including reasonable large speed excursions during a display RPM variations are only in the order of +-20 RPM. This with Pitch set to coarse. There is some great in cockpit Blenheim IV video in this DVD:

http://www.flyingmachinestv.co.uk/DV.../DVDStore.html

With respect to Merlins (Source: Chief engineer Restoration/Flying museum in Aus). RR Merlins were all Mechanical Direct/Flex drive tachos. Packard Merlins were Electrical.
Again talking to current Spitfire pilot flying RR and Packard Merlins he couldnt see any difference Tacho wise just steady RPM with virtually no bounce.

have a look at the Hurri tach needle in post latest Steam release patch

+1000

Yes what about it ? In both the CSU equipped Hurricanes and Spits I see a very subtle hunting of the RPM which is pretty neat imo.

Great vid, and what looks like some solid research a few posts back. So it's looking like the most realistic representation of the tach needles in question would be to tone down the crazy fast vibrations to slower bounces, with small variations in normal straight and level flight, and larger variations with taxiing, turbulence, and rapid power changes. Cool.

yeah... it went from bouncy (pre second Beta patch) with WW open cockpit gauge not bouncing, to not bouncing (post second Beta patch) and now it hunts, along with the WW open cockpit gauge, post Steam release second patch

;)

it also rides now when windmilling the prop - throttle off (though I'm not absolutely sure whether it did before or not)

@ White Owl...

which ever way is accurate to the equipment at the time