'Archaic', as in no longer compatable with the 'truth' you are trying to project. Words mean whatever you want them to mean, at the time you use them. If later you decide they meant something else, then that is what they always meant. Newspeak "the only language in the world whose vocabulary gets smaller every year" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newspeak

blablablablabla mosth comment politic comment my post is request the first NUKE BOMB for SOW PACIFIC SCENARY.
FIRST NUKE BOMB is important the mission is very dangerous start from island TINIAN and GO TO JAPAN whit B29.
THE FIRST NUKE BOMB yes FIRST IMPORTANT EVENT i not IGNORE THIS EVENT FROM WW2 this is HYSTORY.
ENOLA GAY BLOK STAR uaooooooooo LITTLE BOY AND FAT MAN.

Yea you tell um................ what ever it was you said !!!:confused:

At least Xilon isn't trying to project history backwards from the present agenda of some crackpot quasi-religious cult, like some on this thread.

Xilon, I'll accept the A-Bomb - equipped B-29 takeoffs were dangerous (though from the point of view of the crew, possibly less dangerous than a conventionally-armed bomber), but the rest of the historical mission would be downright boring. If you want to simulate the missions, buy yourself a copy of FSX, start your B-29 (or any suitable substitute) from half way down the Tinian runway to simulate the dangers of takeoff, then fly to Japan and back. This will be no less realistic than a proper simulation done in IL-2 or SoW.

Interesting you should mention Bush second term. The leftmost mainstream newspaper here in Norway, the Klassekampen ("the class struggle", yeah, they are really leftists) usually run some in-depth analysis of world events. What they surprisingly pointed out was that Bush Jr. ran unprecedented social reforms in his second term, actually putting him "left" of Clinton on many domestic issues (to the degree that left and right has any meaning in US politics). This surprised me, who (like most Europeans) viewed Bush Jr. as barely able to stand and talk at the same time and thoroughly in the pockets of big capital interests. It only goes to show that the world looks very different when seen from the other side of the US borders.

As for "pretty far down the road to socialism", I think a bit of travelling would do you good. I would say if Obamas administration has moved the US an inch or so closer to socialism, there are still a good couple of yards to go before you are there. Take a stroll here in Europe, and you will discover the wide ranges of social democracies that lies on the long lines from an American style corporate capitalism to actual Socialist countries. Not that there are any real socialist countries left here. Beer's on me should you visit!

Would you care to back that up with some kind of credible sources?

Carter may not have been a splendid president, but in this case (the US as stingy) the cold numbers do bear him out. Yes, Northern European states generally give from 10 to 30 times as much foreign aid per capita. Not liking Carter is not a valid reason for brushing his argument aside.

Some of the problem with US aid is the context in which it is given. Often it is given to one side over another. While the recipients may turn friendly, the other side will hate you doubly, thus (at least partially) negating the diplomatic gain from the aid. Some aid is given all too clearly to buy support or compliance (here, take these X million dollars and look the other way while we screw you over). The aid given is very often in the form of money or weapons, non of which are suited to establish a civilian infrastructure that the civilian population will fear loosing. Finally, the much stick/little carrot politics destroys much of the potential gains from the aid. Saying "here, take these dollars/weapons and support us while we beat up your neighbour, or get targeted yourself" will not buy you friends. People generally do not like to be told what to do, 3rd World countries are no different from the US in that regard, and they have a lot less to loose.

Doing away with all foreign aid would certainly be an interesting move (I suppose you exclude the military aid for Israel and Egypt from that?). I think you would discover that the aid you give actually do have an effect.

Look, his remark about dropping bombs meaning not being a good sport might go beyond what you perceive as modern sports. Aviation is very objective and mission based.

The point is that these weapons are dangerous. They aren't weapons at all to be honest.
What's the next step? Blowing up a whole continent? Destroying Earth? There are science fiction writings about that and in fact we DO have the technology.

Only crazy people fucked up beyond all hope would seriously embrace atomic, chemical, biological, nano or even genetical warfare.

If you have a discussion you need someone to discuss with.
If you have a fight you need someone to actually have a fight with.
If you fight a war you need an enemy to have a war with.
In other words, you need a target, it's no good to blindly kill things. Destroying random targets, plants, animals, civillians, their property etc. or even more; maybe a whole area, a country, a continent, earth. Only totally stupid mindless zombie brains would ever consider something like that.


We are gamers. We shouldn't be talking about stuff like that and have endless political debates over topics that have been researched, forgotten and twisted.
If you really believe in the crap some people here are saying then go out there, get a plane and kill innocent people just because of some "digital opinions".
The point is that this will make you nothing but a murderer and aviation was and is NOT about murdering. These cases are sad, gladly rather rare (although we see more of it in the Irak and Afghanistan again from the US) and should be avoided were possible.

I wouldn't want to play a game where I need to slaughter and kill innocent people, babies, women, elderly people even. This shouldn't be a simulation for criminals but one for people who love flying and seek the competition.

As such I wouldn't like seeing the atomic bombs being used on civilian targets. I don't think there is any excuse for these murderous weapons that could potentially turn earth into a place where no life can exist.
It wouldn't be smart to put them into the game either. This would cause a huge uproar in the media. A game where your objective is to slaughter civillian life would also be banned here in Germany anyways, for good reasons actually.

Just because mass murder, rape and other cruelties happend in wars it doesn't mean they are legitimate.

Wow, what a mess of an off topic thread this has become, I'm surprised it hasn't been locked.

Back to the original topic. No, I don't really think the atomic bombings of Japan should be modeled, because well they'd be very boring missions. Fly your B-29 for a few hours over the center of a city, then push a button. Gee thats sounds fun.

However, I find the moral objections about it very strange indeed. Its OK to model conventional strategic bombing of cities in IL-2 but nuclear ones are off limits? Yes industrial parks were targeted (by the US, UK indiscriminately bombed Germany at night) but bombs very often missed, and even if they hit their targets, civilian works were killed. So essentially your saying its OK that strategic bombing is in the game, as long as were only killing civilians a few at a time. And just forget about the fact that several times more civilians were killed by conventional bombs than nuclear. And that at least 200 times more civilians were killed by means other than nuclear bombs.

The objection is that with conventional bombs you can make it a challenge to aim as precisely as possible, destroying your assigned targets and avoid unnecessary bloodshed. With a nuclear bomb there is no accuracy challenge (as long as you are withing a mile or so) and the only real target is a civilian city. I trust you ca see the difference.

I see the difference in challenge as far as US daytime conventional bombing versus nuclear bombing. However, I really see very little difference between the a-bombs versus the nighttime bombing done by both Germany and the UK. There were many times when the Luftwaffe wasn't even sure what city the RAF targeted in a bomb raid.

I quite see your point Lobosrul, and I think the very facts you quote are a large part of why it took more than 50 years before the contributions of the Bomber Command was officially recognised. I do not think the similarity was lost on neither on civilians, nor on the military, "Bomber Harris" reputation considered.

It may also have played a part in why Churchill was not reelected in the 1945 July election.

Sadly my posts usually end up on the last segment of a page because I think my last one had a couple good points in it.

Yes it's true that conventional terror bombing was done by everyone really. RAF, Luftwaffe and the USA. The point is that there is a difference between the effectiveness of these bombs and also atomic bombs are not just a bomb blast. They radiate huge areas and modern atomic or even hydrogen bombs are deadly. Especially what we call "Schmutzige Bombe" (Dirty bomb) in German, also known as salted bombs in english, are basically horrendous weapons not even aiming at destorying military targets but literally poisoning an area and killing off organic life.

I'd be very glad if we could keep the game ethically and morally intact. Yes, a lot of things happened during the 2nd world war and even in many wars after that. But like I said, just because murder of civillians or rape or things like that happened it doesn't mean that these are legitimate actions and should be simulated.
In another thread people have been argueing about a little blood effect for pilot kills and here we want to make people "virtually" murder innocents? It's really questionable in my book and I'd be glad not seeing something like that in the game.

in the SECOND Bomb launch the Fat Man original target is TOKYO but after chanche for tecnical problem and water problem yes bomb drop to NAGASAKI.

Xilon I was just WONDERING why you seemingly feel the NEED to RANDOMLY put things IN CAPS all the TIME for no apparent REASON?

In fact, NEVER MIND it doesn't MATTER. :grin:

:-D

That would've been even worse! The original target was Kokura and it had much more military industry than Nagasaki. Tokyo would've been pure mass murdering or rather slaughter of civillians.

Kokura, at the time of the planned attack, was under a thick layer of clouds. Three attempts were made and then aborted. Sweeney had the order to drop the bomb on industrial targets only, originally. However, since the gas ran out they flew to Nagasaki and dropped it there. Nagasaki was an important harbor... guess where they dropped the bomb though...

before
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...fects-p10a.jpg
after
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...fects-p10b.jpg

As you can see for yourself... these bombs do not hit accurately... in fact they didn't hit the targets at all. They just evaporate everything in the area and obviously that means that the harbor itself was pointless and "destroyed". It's still something that by todays means is a war crime like anything else.



To the people that defend these weapons so strongly:
I want to raise the question: are you just overly pro-allies or what are your intentions?
Because if it's just about simulating each aspect of the war... would you also demand we re-create games where jews, German political targets and/or disabled Germans will be put into concentration camps and murdered brutally by the player? These captured people didn't have a chance to fight back either. Atomic bombs, concentration camps and some, if not many, bombing runs were pure murder and slaughter of innocents.

I think there should be limits to what we gamers should do or not do. I'm not sure what you hope to gain by dropping weapons such as this but I fear that your intentions might be... questionable at best.

There is a difference between a fight amongst armies and slaughter of civillians by an army. That goes for all sides, axis and allies. But then again, allowing players to kill mindlessly... I really wonder if that is what the developers intend to do and I'm almost certain that it is not their plan.

il-2 have only conventional army but in realty in ww2 american use illegal army EXAMPLE mustard gas BOMBs yes i remember
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Raid_on_Bari

i not see the difference from 100.000.000 convetional bombs and one 1 nuke bomb the difference is the quantity.

WE must also admit that to build one nuclear bomb it took a lot of money scientists and plutonium.
difficulties' huge during ww2.

Yes, you are right about that. Well, the bombs weren't used in this case but think of Dresden etcetera. The allieds have a very dark history of developing absurd weapons of terror and using them. In this case at least preparing them.

But although you are right it is still a difference if you use them against civillians or a military target. So should we, like it was done in real life, simulate concentration camps and use atomic bombs or chemical weapons now? I'm not so sure about that.

I do understand your point, and being German I might even go so far and say: yes, show the truth and don't hide the wrongdoings of the allieds under mist. But then again, sometimes a hero can be born out of evil and I believe in this case it's better to just keep silent to prevent aviation sims from suffering under such absurdly unethical weapons.

What's your oppinion?


[EDIT]
And by the way, the attack on Bari is interesting. It could be campaign material even but it appears that no German intel on the mustard gas bombs existed so I guess it wouldn't make much sense after all.

Splitter, as promised, here you go:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/wo...l/doctrine.htm

After reading the document you should realize that Israel is afraid of the existence of a nuke in its neighborhood because it would cross it's defense strategy.

No one thinks the Iran would nuke Israel.
But:

If there was a conventional war, and one or more of the involved nations has access to nukes - NO ONE can use them.
It's a nuclear pat.
And that is what scares the shit out of the Israelis, they would have to rely on conventional warfare to defend themselves - and most likely fail.

But there still the Samson Option...

Wind Power?

Sure works, if you have nuclear power to fill the gap when there's no wind. ;)

I'm trying to read all the stuff I missed...


How is this supposed to work?

If they relieve you of your duties as your factory owner, maybe you'll agree. ;)

Madfish, I think you misunderstand. No-one is asking for nuclear bombs in Il-2 or SoW. I think everyone who's posted in this thread has been very clear how pointless it would be to have that! I never wanted nuclear bombs either, but you seem to think I did.

Under Hitler the state progressively took over pretty much every aspect of German economic life, setting prices and assigning the scarce resources. That said, the other nations including Britain and the US did this too, during the war years. Strong centralised command and control of the economy is a defining 'left'/marxist trait.

Does anyone care why the ship was carrying mustard gas? Or is it just more convenient to believe that the US was planning on using it offensively.

If you want to check out a really interesting/weird/far fetched weapon, google the "bat bomb" (hint: it has nothing to do with sexually ambiguous men in tights ;) ).

Tokyo was never a target for the nukes, btw. The US did not want to kill the emperor. If the Emperor had died, Japan would never have surrendered.

Another city was also spared even after it was on at the top of the original target list. It was spared because of cultural and historical value...apparently it also hosted the honeymoon of one of the planners.

Friendly, you are on for that beer, even if you break down and make it over here :).

Swiss: Mutual Assured Destruction (MAD) works when the other side is rational and does not want to get a large portion of their own people killed. "Rational" doesn't match the words coming from Iran. Israel has had nukes for a long time and refrained from using them when attacked (though they had them loaded on planes from what I remember reading). Interesting read! Thanks for posting.

Swiss again: Our government is vested with the responsibility of national defense by our constitution (not that we pay much attention to our constitution these days). Most of the other programs that are run through our government have nothing to do with "why" our federal government was created.

The scope of our government's powers has grown far beyond what was originally envisioned by the founders. Most of the power was to reside with the states but that changed after our Civil War.

Our government spends far more money each year than it takes in. The largest portion by far is for entitlement programs. Right now, 1 in 6 Americans is on some form of government assistance....which is untenable for any length of time.

So if the entitlement programs were cut (even frozen at current levels) it would be easy to cut the size of government. Plus, the government interferes with business in many ways that make creating profit ore difficult.

Another strange thing about our economy and government is that when we raise taxes, revenue to the government goes down. When we lower taxes, it stimulates business and revenue to the government goes up. Of course, our congress then spends the excess revenue and more on top of it lol.

Basically, our government is out of control.

Splitter

(Aww, the Internet ate my post. Here's v2.0)

I thought the American Business Model view is that the government shouldn't be in control? It should just defend property rights and act as referee over a free market of self-interested materialistic rationalists? And then everything is beautiful and Pareto efficient.

There is a competing point of view, that profits are a byproduct of delivering goods and services rather than the other way around. I quite like it :-)

Hey, the opening post clearly says that along with numerous people biting the bait and actually defending the use of atomic weapons. Further down the thread (I read all of it but forgot some parts) the request was repeated again with people repeating the almost same statements.
Sorry for mis-understanding if you actually argumented against the use and implementations of such weapons. I interpreted it differently.

Sadly I don't have much information on it and my browser is suffocating in tabs (over 35x open at the moment). Do you have any links? What I found is that http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Ha...#Bari_incident . It does kind of hint to an offensive use, especially given the nasty bombings later. So it might have been a good thing that the ship was destroyed there - or what makes you think that shipping the freight over there was meant to dismantle them in Italy, a very risky territory which had been occupied a little earlier?

Tabs issue again... I know that the bat bomb was supposed to be a glider bomb with a radar head. Was it real? I never read too much about it. I'd appreciate a good link on it and by the way, there are other good search engines than goo** ;P


I basically said that, didn't I? Sorry if it was written in a confusing way, English is not my native language.
I didn't want to mention the emperor though because that might lead to another debate if it would have brought down the country completely, throwing it into chaos, or if it would have led to a series of relentless attacks until the last man instead. Guessing that they saw the kamikaze I'd say they assumed the later. But we don't know, or wouldn't know. So I was just sticking to the weather and industry ;P

No worries. This thread's gone miles and miles off topic - I should revise what I just said. I don't think anyone who's been posting in it a lot actually wants to have an atom bomb in a WW2 flight sim :-D

Hey madfish,

The ship was delivering mustard gas shells from WWI. They were to be used in retaliation if the Germans used chemical warfare. Allied troops were often issued gas masks because the belief was that Hitler would resort to chemical warfare eventually.

I think both sides learned, in WWI, that chemical warfare was not as easy as it sounded. Lots of things tended to go wrong.

The "bat bomb" was an American program that strapped incendiary bomblets to actual bats. They would be dropped over Japanese cities and roost (do bats roost? I dunno, say hide lol) in the roofs and eaves of Japanese buildings. When the timer ran out, the incendiary would ignite (poor bat) and start a fire. Thousands of small fires would have erupted almost simultaneously in a city and it would have been almost impossible to keep all those fires from getting out of control. I think the war ended before it could be deployed or that funding got diverted.

Dozer: Yes, minimal government involvement in business (and in people's lives in general) was what the founding fathers envisioned. They are probably rolling over in their graves right now seeing how badly we have mangled their intentions lol.

And as for this frequent poster, no A-bomb for me. I've spent a lot of time wondering what the crew must have (or might have) been thinking, I don't really need a simulated bombing run to clarify things for me. As someone else said, it would be more of an X-Plane exercise than a mission for a combat flight sim.

Splitter

I would agree with that but suspect what the founding fathers never envisaged was "big business" and in particular multinational corporate business bloating up to the point that it is now pretty much outdoing both church and state combined when it comes to bureaucratic bungling and interference in "people's lives in general" .

There was a point where New Zealand was more "American" than America where it came to economic policy. This was after the collapse of the interventionist Keynesian regime that spent large sums on giant steelmills that made a huge loss, which in turn was after the collapse caused by Britain joining the EEC and not buying NZ's exports any more. The hyper-American free-marketeers dismantled the state as far as possible, privatising everything, then there was a third collapse symbolised by the loss of electrical supply to Auckland because the distributor cut maintenance to boost profits until their network broke. I'd like to learn more of NZ's troubled history, it's grisly but fascinating.

Aw crud, now I have something else to research. Damn you :). I thought they just had a bunch of really weird animals.

Galway, I'll have to think on what you said. I am not sure they were completely inexperienced with such things given how powerful some companies were (like the East India Trading Company if I remember them correctly). There were many things they could not have envisioned, but none of those have invalidated their thoughts that they put down on parchment.

Example: They could never have envisioned the internet and yet their views on free speech still hold true.

Seldom do I ever read a thread that makes me think or re-think positions or that uncover anything interesting enough to send me off on a research jaunt.

Did this thread go off topic? Ummm, yeah, and I participated in it. Was it useful? Again I would say yes because while I saw a bunch of tired old arguments and prejudices that could not be substantiated, I also saw things that made me want to go do a little research. I think everyone should have their notions challenged on a regular basis to see if what they believe still holds true. It's healthy even when minds are not changed.

Of course, I agree with Mr. Churchill on an individual's evolution of political opinion :).

Splitter

Madfish (Cuddlefish) I couldn't careless if a nuke is modelled in SOW or not and that also goes for gore. I love il2 and it has neither. A nuke or gore in game will change what in your life........... nothing thats what. I take issue with all the whinning and crying, it sounds like a stinking nursery in here. The only reason people are protesting these issues is to say look at me, I'm evolved, I'm smarter than you, I'm morally superior to you............ I believe thats called moral narcissism. In other words get over your self and your better than tho attitude. If this doesn't apply to you:eek: than ignore the above.

Hunden, you seem to be under the impression that your opinions in this thread matter. They don't. Get over it.

I could say the same for you Andy, didn't I give you a spanking last I remember. LMAO:eek: I guess the above applies to you...........

That is called "total war", and has really nothing to do with leftist/rightist.

I think some people need a copy of this ....

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y10...gh/explode.jpg

IF S.O.W. in future not have blood for pilot dead in dogfight not have good explosion not have real crash not have all airplane ww2 not have nuke bomb not have chemichal bomb i not CALL this ww2 simulator.
I NOT CALL SIMULATOR of WW2 i repeat this is WORLD WAR 2 not a pacific flight and clean army.
ALLIED AND AXIS have secret army and illegal army during WW2.

we are combat pilotsand fly in one important and dangerous mission is fantastic.
YES TOTAL WAR this is WORLD WAR 2 no peace but all type of violence and all type of army is admited.

ok you don't want it ok play at a simple mission only dogfight and cooperative but need strategy need dangerous army need risk need adrenaline.

mmmmm ok if SOW have nuke program you locked whit money acces if you have much money you build NUKE or CHEMICAL or PROTOTYPE airplane for new dangerous mission and unlooked that type of army.

BASICAL AND LOGICA in one WORLD WAR is a MONEY yes MONEY if you dont't have it not WAR.

-MONEY
-FUEL OIL
-MAN
-FOOD
-TECNOLOGY

i have DEFCOM is a good program whit nuke bomb total war but not is a simulator is a TATICAl.

i have much idea for S.O.W. but in this moment i not put it now this post not just for it.

Chemical weapons weren't used in WWII, so it is irrelevant. We'll have have most of the planes that flew in Battle of Britain, even the Italian ones, and they'll burn and crash just fine. The only thing you won't have is blood and innards all over the place, and the nuclear bomb which did not exist during the Battle of Britain anyway.

I strongly suggest you go and find a nuclear strike game if that is so important to you.

Indeed...his public spankings don't seem to affect him. It just goes in one ear, and out his ass...rotfl

:grin:

Are you two really congratulating yourselves for 'spanking' someone on an internet forum? I am genuinely amused by this :-D

I spanked the BMW driver who cut me up this afternoon. As he drove away I swore and made a gesture. He didn't see it, but I really spanked him good!

AAAHHH party pooper:grin:

Can I ask you to spank a little harder next time - I hadn't noticed. If you can't, I'll have to arrange another visit to a certain Soho basement I know, and Miss Discipline charges exorbitant prices. :wink:

May I recommend Miss Whiplash:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lindi_St_Clair

Sadly, Miss Whiplash is no longer in business. A pity because as a constituent of her landlord (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_Lamont_%281942%29), I used to get a discount. ;)

Haha, really? I used to live in Kingston-upon-Thames, but I think we were in the Richmond constituency. Moved in late 1995; I suppose he was still around then!

25 pages. does xilon create the most dicussed topics?

top trolling. by now i would've thought he'd be on everyone's ignore list.

Well, given Xilon's topic, the wide range of opinions it generated, and the general feeling that it was so daft that going off-topic was more sensible, I think it was bound to run on for a while. And as long as we keep this thread going, Xilon can't start another one on A-Bomb simulation either. So in the interests of the wider IL-2 community, I think we need to keep it running. Lets see, beyond Xilon's original topic we've done war crimes, sadomasochism, revisionist history, 'where are you from?', the fall of the Byzantine Empire, the Greek civil war, Newspeak, and who can recall what else. We clearly need another (off-)topic though:

Marmite. Elixir of the Gods? Yes or No...

OMG.....I agree with Andy. Take me now, Lord, before it gets any worse :).

Never heard of Marmite before but a quick wikpedia search says that I might love it. Now I just have to find it over here in the colonies.

Wow....I just realized that the Marmite thing means Andy influenced my opinion on something...I think that probably makes us both sick to our stomachs lol.

Splitter

Ahhh, Splitter, I have you in my evil clutches. Get you hooked on Marmite, then introduce you to real ale... I'll have you singing the 'Internationale' before you know it. ;)

A word of warning on the Marmite - spread it very thin, it's powerful stuff. Try it on hot buttered toast. Yummmm... :grin:

Andy, we could probably hang together. I don't drink American mass produced swill and tend towards little micro breweries who actually put some heart and alcohol content into their brews lol. Gotta be cold though.

I'll sing internationale if you'll sing http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQcJ9...eature=related

Then we can both wash our mouths out with a robust ale lol.

Splitter

I think I'd better listen to that with headphones, or my friends will think I've cracked...

Glad to hear you share my opinions of mass produced 'beer'. That should make you a natural for Marmite. 'Robust' (and 'yeasty' obviously) would describe it's flavour well...

Get a room you two!


(I'm joking!)

Don't worry about it, winny. Andy is going to listen to that and get the uncontrollable urge to salute....and invade a third world country :mrgreen:

Of course, he could listen to it out loud and just explain to his friends that he is doing a comparison between American country music concerts and Third Reich rallies lol.

Splitter

Nothing wrong with country music as such - it has its roots in the American rural working class, though this is more to my taste:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zgja26eNeY&feature=fvst

And naturally:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxiMrvDbq3s

So you do have taste!

Splitter

If it wasn't in writing or not on video, it doesn't count. ;)


This thread started with a nuclear bomb and ended with Johnny Cash @ San Quentin. But then just went over the top with Woodie Guthrie. I think its safe to say this thread has come full circle. Problem solved.

hahahahahahahaha:):) JOHNNY CASH :grin:
i send it first time in the album of U2 Zooropa bravo bravo i like it.
is catholic peace song.
music style is country american style far whest songs movie.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0G2X...eature=related
the country music style is very original american songs music is not contaminated even if the true American music belongs to the real American Indian peoples.
The original American peoples are indiani or inkas and not the ENGLISH FRANCE AND SPAIN COLONY.

this is original american music.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7sFgRypDKk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYheX...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWqhHEOWNlQ
american governament not protect the native american peoples i want the american president real native american
not exist real native american president.NATIVE AMERICAN in U.S.A. territory are rare and also in CANADA and MESSICO.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOlv0qPIgzg
nuclear test.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwpgm...eature=related

Mr. President Smelling Horseshoe.

LOL

What? This is classic modern American music:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EK2tWVj6lXw

lol

Wait Dozer.....Astley was ENGLISH! lol

We have the Brits to thank for him and the constant "Rick Rolled" attacks popular a couple years ago. So blame the Brits :).

For full disclosure, I bought the CD when it first came out and still have it.....the 80's, you just had to be there.

Splitter

I was there. I didn't buy it, I was too busy trying to learn Muddy Waters songs between classes.

Jesus Christ, what sort of people do we have here?

OH HAI

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/in_ur_reality.png

IL-2 ATOMIC BOMB.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJ9MdzN8I6I&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-rye1r7kMU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WazXS...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2RSf1...eature=related

That is a user mod that just makes a bigger bang then normal for guys that like blowing things up, it does not model ANY of an atomic bombs other effects other than blast.

It also seems extremely unlikely you will see this in an official IL2 release ... ever.

Nazi invent first the atomic experimental bomb and after Americans.
this is the particolar 3 movie to nazi nukebomb.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rCEO...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8U-I4...eature=related
GERMAN KAMIKAZE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKosh...eature=related
ONLY 3500 miles for NEW YORK.

No. A total fabrication. Still, you'll believe anything you see on YouTube, won't you, Xilon?

dear andywest I posted this document in English because I had 'seen the document in Italian.
here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtWq7...eature=related
Hitler had the bomb but not the big project manatham.
the German atomic bomb hitler you would say what we now commonly call the dirty bomb.
My research is based on true facts and documents are at the center is also evidence of Italian journalists and even the famous Secretary of the Duce Benito Mussolini called LUIGI Romersa.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luigi_Romersa
Guest Book has been published an extremely important on this subject
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/06...i_nuke_sketch/
then the experiment was called the German uranium project the German equivalent of the project manatham.
the German atomic bomb called "Disintegration BOMB.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/sep/30/books.italy

The "dirty bomb" of the cold war era was still a nuclear device.

Those are not atomic bombs at all.

5 giorni fa It is strange that the US named their nuclear bomb program Manhattan project, it is more likely that the Manhattan project was a Nazi plan to attack New York City which they took over.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZ2-h...eature=related

At least he believes in something he can see not all the people here with imaginary friends!

Nope, sorry. It had to do with the origins of the project. We hear about New Mexico, but it was originally based in New York:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/30/science/30manh.html

Splitter

Codenames aren't supposed to reveal what they are about. Do you think they should have called it "Project build a huge atom bomb and blow the Axis to bits"?

"Killing thousands of civilians project" would be better.

First, the project killed tens of thousands, not just thousands.

Second, it saved many more than it killed.

Third, neither bomb killed as many as the firebombings of Tokyo. The firebombing of Dresden produced more "total destruction".

Fourth, the project ended WWII.

Fifth, War is Hell.

Sixth, there was a recent thread about this.

Splitter

Nuclear Weapons are fun loving colorful entertaining little devices which are good for the environment, educational and perfectly safe for children to play with ... providing they belong to the American right.

If anyone else has them they are evil weapons of mass destruction :D

Now you are getting it!

Splitter

i only can say that: God help you...

FSX enola gay
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCc08...eature=related

Galway and I (and others) went back and forth over several things in the previous thread. I was not being serious. I was making a joke about my "right wing American" stances by agreeing with Galway's exaggeration of me and my ilk. We both made jokes.

But, if you go back and read the thread, you will probably come to the same conclusion :).

Splitter

I haven't had the heart or patience to read all the posts, but the idea of joking about nuclear holocaust is abhorrent.

A.

It's not joking about a nuclear holocaust (I'm not sure that the partial destruction of two cities qualifies as a holocaust though...), it's joking about our far different views of the world. It's like someone asking me how I shine my jackboots or me asking someone on the left how it feels to hug a tree or why all the streets leading to Paris are lined by trees.

Stereotypes. There is humor there. I disagree with people, but that doesn't mean I hate them. Hopefully they feel the same. Joking about the stereotypes diffuses our....disagreements.

Splitter

I agree 100% ;)

Let me answer that.

Although all roads lead to Rome, the French are absolutely sure Paris is center of the world.
That's why all highways lead to Paris - and they certainly look better with trees on both sides.

I'm not sure on the influence that has on the French capability to surrender or being coward - but we're getting off track already....



at least, unless they are liberals. lol

Even AndyWest agreed to have a pint with me so there IS hope for world peace :).

Splitter

trust me, the RAF strategic bombing of Germany was indeed holocaust, I had several exams at uni on the matter. In 1940 Winston Churchill said: “You must understand, that this war is not against Hitler or National Socialism, but against the strength of the German people, which is to be smashed once and for all, regardless whether it is in the hands of Hitler or a Jesuit priest.”
If that isn't racial hatred..

The nukes in Japan were a mixed matter of racial hatred and political interest: the Americans invested shedloads of money on the Manhattan Project and needed to show the Russians who had the bigger stick by the end of the war..

Gaaah.... You know full well that Churchill felt that placing Germany in a permanently subordinate position would have left Britain 'manacled to a corpse' as he memorably phrased it. His concern was to break a mindset, not a country.

Ironically, area-bombing of cities was almost declared a war crime in the early 30s. The treaty was blocked by two countries: Britain and Germany.

Germany trashed Warsaw, Rotterdam and London. In 1940, it was widely believed that 30,000 had died in Rotterdam.

Maybe strangely given the tone of the era, racism was never a major feature of propaganda against Germany. Japan, on the other hand, was portrayed in explicitly racist terms.

dduff

Here I agree. WWII was the second time Germany had kicked up a war in less than half a century. We can argue about whether or not they were forced into WWII, but the fact remains that they started it lol. There was absolutely a determination in the Allies to eliminate the mind sets that had lead Germany into two world wars.

Racism was present on several fronts. People look at the Nazi regime, their propaganda, and what they did to certain groups of people, but the most racist mindset in the war was Japanese. As a culture, they looked down on every other culture and race. In their minds, it was their destiny to rule Asia and they certainly saw themselves as superior to the western races. This was evidenced by the systematic atrocities committed by Japanese forces which were sanctioned by the government.

You just don't spit babies on bayonets unless you feel they are less than human.

Was there a bigoted element against Japan? Certainly. If you look at the propaganda of the time, the Japanese were portrayed as evil. There was even a belief, prior to the war, that the Japanese could not fly planes because of poor eye sight...no lie. Yes, people were that stupid.

However, the dropping of the A-bombs was about destroying the mindset of the Japanese just as the destruction of Germany was aimed at destroying their mindset. Through invasion or annihilation, the Allies were determined to eliminate Japan as a future threat and to occupy the country.

People want to point to the decision to drop the bombs as a war crime. The best argument to this is to look at how Japan was treated after surrender....which was with great kindness and respect considering the destruction they had brought about. That may have actually been MacArthur's greatest service in his life.

Destroying the mindset that lead to aggression is the one and only way to end a war for good. Harsh but true. If you leave the mindset in place, another war is inevitable.

By the way, in reading journals of American soldiers and watching interviews, I have very seldom heard one express hatred for the German people (I actually heard it most blatantly last night from an American P-51 ace). However, there was certainly a high level of hatred for the Japanese military forces far in excess of what was felt against Germans. Even then, however, I have seen little hatred expressed against the Japanese people except by some surviving POW's.

Lastly, most of what many call "racism" is actually just bigotry. Bigotry is ignorance. Racism is hatred.

Splitter

Blimey, Xilon's posts are always a bit off the wall, but they usually cause some hot debate or other.
Do you think he does it deliberately just to wind everyone up and then study the English used?
Or is he not Italian at all and just a wind-up merchant?

Xilon is a character invented by one of the members of the development team. He is their Lady Gaga.

They laugh.

Splitter

Xilon's posts are could be funny but he is much more humanist than the others who believes bombing the civilians.

we are human beings build houses and even cars planes trains and arms also commit mistakes. and human mistakes.
IN ENGLISH
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wd1-H...eature=related
a great tribute to the legendary James Brown on my part
IN ITALIAN
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2mnbUol3WA8
remember is a simulation not real life.

I like Xilon's posts as much as any. I understand he is Italian and often expresses himself through video because he can be more accurate with that than with English....and he has some good taste in music. His videos are often far fetched, but I have to say I watch them lol

I'm not sure pointing out who is more humanist is appropriate on a board about a war simulation where simulated pilots are killed on a regular basis.

Splitter

Another point to note is that there is no way in 2010 a USAF aircraft would be allowed to be called "Enola Gay" with modern political correctness.

Enola Don't Ask, Don't Tell? :grin: