Official Fulqrum Publishing forum - Does the 109E have armor?

Official Fulqrum Publishing forum (http://forum.fulqrumpublishing.com/index.php)

- IL-2 Sturmovik: Cliffs of Dover (http://forum.fulqrumpublishing.com/forumdisplay.php?f=189)

- - Does the 109E have armor? (http://forum.fulqrumpublishing.com/showthread.php?t=34773)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurfürst (Post 467387)

A few reports on shot down 109E inspected by the British on the ground.

A.I.2.(g) Report No. 4/53 ñ 1940

Me 109. Crashed 30.09.40 at 17.00 hours, at Queens Anne's Gate, Windsor Great Park. Markings: 9 painted on yellow engine cowling. Spinner white with black circle on tip. Old markings had been painted out, viz. PH + LV. Airframe built by Arado, 29.06.40,. No. 109.4851. Engine DB601. Following fighter action aircraft forced landed and turned over. There are a number of bullet strikes from astern.

Armament: x 2 MG 17 in wings and x 2 under engine cowling. Armour: Standard cross bulkhead and head protection for the pilot.

A.I.2.(g) Report No. 4/54 ñ 1940

Me 109. Crashed on 30.09.40 at 16.50 hours at Sydling St. Nicholas, near Cerne Abbas. Map ref:U0821.
Markings not decipherable. Engine DB601. Following fighter action aircraft dived into the ground and burnt out. Pilot baled out, but was killed owing to parachute failure. Armament: x 2 MG 17 in wings and two under engine cowling traced. Armour: Standard cross bulkhead was found only.

AIR 22/266

Me 109. Crashed on 31.08.40 at Jubilee Farm, Ulcombe. Identification markings 10 + I, black Gothic S on white shield. Fuselage built by ERLA Werke Nr. 62914. Cause of crash, fighter action, condition fair. Aircraft made good landing, wheels up. Armament: 20 mm shell guns in wings and x 2 MG 17 machine guns under engine cowling.
Armour usual bulkhead, pilots head protected by shield. Crew 1, prisoner. Camouflaged green upper surfaces, light blue underneath. In good condition, suitable for exhibition purposes.
The DB601 engine is reported to have had the number 11366/211002a.

Type: Messerschmitt Bf 109E-4 Werke/Nr. 1325

A.I 1(g) Report No. 3/67 states:

Crashed on 30.09.40 at Langney, near Eastbourne. Map ref: R.0820. Markings 13 + (figures in yellow). Orange nose, rudder and fin. Engine DB601A, No.63509, made by Daimler Benz at Genshagen, Toltow.
Armament: 2 x 20mm cannons and 2 MG 17. Armour: normal cross bulkhead, and panel behind pilots head. Following fighter action, aircraft forced landed. A few .303 strikes in cooling system and engine. Pilot prisoner.

A.I.2.(g) Report 1940

Me 109. Forced landed at Love's Farm, Marden, Kent on 05.09.40. Markings < + - black, outlines in white. Crest: Shield U-shaped, outlined in red, divided into 8 segments coloured black and white. Wing tip and rudder painted white, camouflage all blue, fuselage all blue. Spinner divided into alternate black and white sectors. Fitted with Bd601A engine made by Mercedes Benz Erke Nr.10598. Aircraft forced landed following fighter action. Condition reported to be very good. Standard armament x 2 20 mm cannon and x 2 MG 17 machine guns. No head armour.. Starboard wing shows many .303 strikes.

Well these records are a pretty clear indication most 109E's during the BoB were equipped with armour although some may not have had the headrest.

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Buzzsaw* (Post 467382)

Anytime you hit a section of piece of steel with the force of a bullet, you are weakening the whole piece. The force of the bullet is transmitted through the entire structure, stretching and warping it. The next bullet which hits, strikes a weakened structure.

And to suggest only one bullet could hit a seat rear in a single burst is inaccurate, I have read a number of accounts of surviving pilots coming back with multiple hits on their armoured seat back and with it cracked and warped.

Buddy, I have lots of guns and tried that - it only works with concrete where the material chips off.
If you where right you could penetrate a tank if you had the time - that may even work, only under lab conditions tho'.

Fire real bullets into real steel, then come back and report. ;)

Very pleased to see this changed.

It was quite stupid before how the 2x 7.92 so easily killed pilots and the raf EIGHT high rpm .303 could barely ever kill a pilot. A lot more believable now.

This along with the bomber fuel tanks blowing off wings fix have made this patch a lot better than it could have been.

Kurfurst, just an observation but I notice that your 4 109's listed are all recovered late in the BOB, the earliest 31st August. Do you have any records from the start too? Or even Battle of France?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Osprey (Post 467777)

Kurfurst, just an observation but I notice that your 4 109's listed are all recovered late in the BOB, the earliest 31st August. Do you have any records from the start too? Or even Battle of France?

I think that's it, I have found these on http://aircrewremembrancesociety.com/luft1939/ site, there are many other such reports for Bf 110s, bombers etc. It's a good source.

I have the crash report for WNr. 4101 somewhere too (that's the only E-4/N crash report I know of ) which also confirms the armor plate. These reports were made in haste and were superfluous. Still they are invaluable.

It's difficult to find examples earlier, I am sure there are some other but I guess during most of August the air combat typically occured near the coastline, and those 109s that were hit and did not go straight down (and pancaked, so there was not much to report but aluminium ash pile..) probably tried to make it for France over the sea... either they did make it or did not, obviously no reports of those.

As for Battle of France, no, I have not too many French reports (relatively few 109s were lost anyways, and the French/British had other problems during retreat than inspecting them). I have the one 109E-3s which the French tested (and later handed over to the British, that's the long RAE or Morgan report), serial no 1304., which notes there were no armor fitted. But they captured that plane back in the late automn of 1939, so it does not tell you much about the BoF period's fitting.

However the 109E manual issued in december 1939 however notes that armor weight is not included in the loading weights, so its pretty clear armor was / was about to be introduced in the end of 1939 (right after the French captured WNr. 1304), given the reference.

Most secondary sources seem to note that it was the E-4 that introduced armor into serial production (and puts it May 1940), so pilot armor essentially went parallel with similar RAF upgrades.

I wonder about that JG26 example in the BOB museum at Duxford. They have it sat on display in a crashed state. I know that the starboard wing is original but I can't remember how much of it is or when it was forced down. I have some pictures at home, should be easy to see. It's a case of trust though, the example has the '100 octane' triangle on it in the museum but that isn't in the original photograph at the crash site.

This one? :)

Wnr. 1190, White 4 of II/JG 26. I believe this is the one famously set up as it was orginally. Pilot had an engine failure in a dogfight and made a nice belly landing IIRC.

http://kurfurst.org/Engine/DB60x/fil...t1940b_DFC.jpg

Yes that's the one Uther, looks like it was also in September.