I think the 109 is right where it should be, extremely dangerous in the right hands and a total brick in the hands of a noob turn 'n' burner. I've flown red the last couple of nights on ATAG and there are two types of 109 pilots there, ace types and total rookie types and very little in between.

Can I just ask Mastif ... we're you flying against a human pilot or AI?

I have flown them and they do. Climb to steeply and you lose airspeed, push down too harshly and you red out. Pull up harshly and you go into blackout. The Brit machines are more susceptible is all. The reason we won out in the battle of britain was because we had better pilots with more reason to defend our Isle.

First off, it's Wolverine, not Osprey :P

Second, if you try to follow a 109 in a dive for any length of time in a Hurricane you will very quickly find you have no control surfaces remaining on your aircraft as they've been torn off.

You're right about these arguments going no where, though. If anything it allows for a little venting before we carry on carrying on.

Here's something to think about though: Flying a Spitfire I/Ia or a Hurricane, your best option for taking on 109s is to meet them from above. Get altitude and descend on them. Okay, now a lot of people don't fly that high, so this isn't too hard to do. But the good 109 pilots fly higher. They fly in around 10k ft or above at LEAST. Okay, so fly higher. 15k and up. Now you're meeting the 109s on better terms.

But now consider how ATAG has their mission set up and how people fly it. Bombers fly in at 50ft off the deck. You can't even see those dots from 15k+ altitude. So you have to fly lower to protect your targets. Like 1,000 to 5,000 ft above the ground lower. This = 109 bait.

So our ONLY option to win those maps is for us to get bombers in the air and get the enemy targets ASAP. Only, we have the tin can Blenheim. I'm sure it has its strengths, but I've flown many escort missions and it's a VERY safe bet that if you go over there with 4 Blenheims, 3 of them will be destroyed by flak and 2 of them before they've even dropped bombs.

Blue pilots and builders keep telling me that the Red flak is just as dangerous as the Blue stuff, but I've since flown a 109 over red airfields to test it and I find that very hard to believe. I'm lucky if I get out alive after buzzing a blue target. One of our tactics is now to flood the target area with fighters to draw the flak so the bombers actually get through. It's frequently suicide and almost always you end up with severe damage.

So if you protect your targets, you get shot down.
If you go up and fight the 109s, you lose the map.
If you get people in Blenheims to attack targets, they rarely make it home and that's no fun (but quite often get the target - salute to you Bomber Boys, doing a thankless job. I'll escort you guys any day and any hour).

THAT'S what makes it frustrating.

One more thing to mention. Escorting bombers? Well, they're going to fly at 50ft off the deck too! So you have to be lower to keep eyes on them and intercept fighters attacking them. All THIS means is that the 109s flying at altitude get to pick. Bomber or fighter? It's an RAF buffet. The only option we have then is to successfully draw the 109s off of the bomber flight into a dog fight so that the bombers can continue on and get out of range. If you manage to shoot the 109 down in the process you either have him out numbered or he makes mistakes.

Here's my suggestion for getting rid of this blasted argument:

Remove bombers as flyable from ATAG.

Seriously. Make the AI bombers attack the ACTUAL targets. Fighters have to intercept and destroy them. AT ALTITUDE. This is the only way we're going to see people regularly having dog fights at 15k+. It also gives some meaning to intecepting those ai bombers instead of just padding your score.

And remove the targets in France. Set up them mission so that german bombers attack all the targets. If all the targets are destroyed, blue wins and the server resets. If targets remain, flash a 'Red survive day 1' message and then launch a second wave. Repeat. Red side tries to last as long as possible. This, to me, is FAR more a Battle of Britain scenario than the current mission. I would design this myself, but the scripting eludes me.

(And I use ATAG as the example since it's really the only show in town currently and it will take something big to change that)

You can fly over flak without much worry in a 109 but do it in an 88 trying to drop a load. Its brutal. I've died plenty and always get damaged a lot. I consider myself some what experienced ju88 pilot.

Well, the flak is pretty deadly to our fighters. And you guys have 110s/87s that can carry.

If we had Hurricanes that could carry a bomb, things might be different. Or beaufighters.

Wolverine, I used to fly RAF exclusively, then I switched to the 109 for the challenge, I have flown for both sides.

I am not sure why you are offended though. I have stated that the 109 is a better plane in the game at the right hands, so if a red pilot can consistently out fly me I know that he is a better pilot (not comparing to Spit IIa).

Brit planes ARE easier to pick up, but 109 has more potentials to exploit, for the reasons I've already stated, i don't think I am wrong in any of that (Yes, I know that the Hurricane doesn't have great rear view, but you must have realize the 109 suffers the same?).

If you think that 109s are that much superior and as easy to master, please, come fly with us. As you may have noticed, red pilots almost always outnumber us blue pilots on ATAG. We are not born to fly one sided after all.

Regarding the original post... Sounds like you were versing AI or playing on singleplayer. For some reason AI can roll at light speed and have all sorts of physics-breaking maneuvers.

That makes sense, the 109 is very difficult to master, except for our friend AI

in my opinion the FM and DM is more worse after the last patch! Before in a 109 you had a good chance to outclimb a Hurri and after the Hurri was stalling or turn away you had the option to dive on the Hurri! After the patch there was no chance to do that!:(
The DM from the Spit is overmodeled i think! I have never made it to shoot a Spits wing away, what is no problem to do it on a Hurri. The 109 is made of paper on this DM! Thats what i think about it!