That is a very sad and narrow view I'm afraid, Apple is used by professionals that work with photography and graphic design, musicians, engineers and even common users, who rely on two things: hassle free and simplicity of use.

Have you ever actually owned and used an Apple computer? They simply work, no matter what you plug to it (unless it's deliberately not supporting Apple, like Dell crap peripherals), it will look for drivers and work in no time, even making up drivers for stuff that is not present! It's less susceptible to viruses, there's less possibility of damaging the OS by installing malicious software, the benchmarks of Apple hardware are superior (Windows XP on my Mac runs and performs better than on the equivalent PC platform!), they look less clunky and above all they receive continuous updates and improve performance and compatibility, introducing revolutionary technology (think of AirPlay for instance) and enlarging the experience like nobody else does.

Yes, they're not always cheap, but you can get stuff at 0% interest rate in 1 year payments and receive 1 year full warranty, which you can extend to 3 years for little money.

All of this pays you back with an incredible longevity.

Yes, they're not the ideal platform to play (although I run IL-2 1946 perfectly on mine), but that's only because most software houses don't bother to develop games for Macs. Fortunately in a few years' time we'll have cloud gaming, and that will put the word end to the Micro$oft dominion in the world of gaming.

Ok, apple products being of high quality is definitely the case, but this is a bit too much of myth making here and I say that as someone that does graphical and design art as a profession and has direct access to both Microsoft and Apple products.

First of all, recent apple OSes had some serious security faults. Leopard II had larger security holes then even Vista had. Apple did not produce more secure Ooperating Systems then Microsoft, it's just that Apple computers only share a friction of the market and thus are under the Radar of most hackers.

The apple OS also has a huge advantage in being written for the same hardware all over. This makes it rather easy to optomize apple products opposite to Windows, which has to cope with a vast amount of devices. What you prefer here is personal choice, both apporaches have pros and negs. I personally like to work on my computer and upgrade it, purely performance wise you get more bang for the buck with hardware for Windows systems, peripheral producers in direct competition towards each other, so the performance gain in apple products software wise is very relative. It's also not so easy to just upgrade apple products hardware wise.

Apple products are also greared more towards the noobs, which is not a bad thing, it's like an Audi A3 which has it's hood sealed so only mechanics from Audi are capable to work on it opposite to more basic approaches in cars that leaves your room to work on it yourself. Also a matter of personal choice, not an andvantage per se.

My judgement may be clouded here because I got introduced to Apple when they only had one mouse button, which for me was amongst the most cumbersome and agonizing approaches in regards to using a computer, you always had to press extra keys on the keyboard to make it work. Espcially in the graphics department one mouse button was a pest.

I am also absolutely no fan of Apples apporach towards Apps, banning all free programming from their devices and making everything payware as a matter of principle. I am also not so convinced about Apple deisgns as in some cases, they were in some instances almost 1:1 copies of Braun industrial design from the 70ies. And lest we forget that in the modern age Apple was highly successfull in abusing modern patent law to kick any competition in the nuts.

In my opinion apple created some very noteworthy and in the later stages, easy to use and good looking devices, but there is a bit too much of a hype going on. Windows once was hailed very similiary after it replaced DOS, good looking, easy to use in comparison, quite like Apple today. And like the Windows fans are rediculed nowadays, Apple fans should be cautious not to lean too far out of the window.

It all comes down to the point that you pay a lot of money for good looks, a brand name and rather easy usage. If people are willing to pay for that, and if they have the money I do not blame them, cool, but that does not make it a revolution.

Cool vid -- thanks for sharing this.

It'd be neat to revisit it 30 or 40 years from now to see how it compares to the reality. It's fun to see how the future was envisioned by movies and even comic books decades ago. I have to say, FaceTime on the little iPhones impresses hell out of me. Last week friends vacationing in Italy skyped us here (near Toronto) from their hotel room using their iPad -- again, as a kid of the 1950's this wows me.

Someday they'll have Link Trainer simulators on home PC's..........

Apple - Taking away user options for the sake of simplicity since 1977.

Apple - Making high quality goods from old components and selling them at ludicrous prices.

Steve Jobs - Visionary not really, he was a business man.

Well I regularly work with Photoshop and Illustrator and have a colleague who works with AutoCAD. We have a division of sound engineer who works with Macs as well and in our professional and corporate experience, we can say that Macs performs better, and I'm not talking merely about top end Mac Pros, even the standard iMacs work a treat compared to the pcs you can assemble for the same money; in addition to that you have a stable OS and a long guarantee.

No, that's a myth that PC geeks love to think is true, but it's not because hackers don't find Macs appealing, it's cos viruses don't work on Macs, because OS X doesn't work like Windows. You can get certain trojans and ad-wares, but it's really hard because of the way permissions are structured within OS X.

It's down to personal choice, but the whole misconception is that a machine with a greater chance to be tweaked shouldn't be put in the hands of people that don't know how to handle it. Take the virus examples again: viruses do spread because of a combination of poor security in terms of OS and bad policies or IT habits of average users. Apple took these factors into account and developed a fenced system that is not susceptible to these issues.
As a consequence, you have a stable machine, which reliable performance and that doesn't let you down.
The main difference is that Micro$oft develops a generic OS to be thrown to the lions, whereas Apple develops a complete package, which now is even capable to run the Windows OS (and performing better with those too).

You probably never looked into a Mac Pro. That is hardware porn at its finest :mrgreen:

things have changed, and keep on changing: Apple is now ditching the concept of the mouse in favour of the Magic Trackpad , which together with a pen tablet is all I use for work. The simple genius of multi-touching is incredibly useful.

you probably never worked with Apps. They generated an incredible amount of work and income for a lot of new companies, and many apps are for free. A developers' package is not very expensive and you can really make a lot of profit. The fact that apps are monitored by Apple is a further example of how they care about quality standards.

Apple is a giant, they have more liquidity than the US of A in their bank. They're also winning causes for patent infringements done by other companies, because they worked hard on having their patenting done properly. They invested a lot in it, and it's paying back. As for design, it's questionable, designers continuously take inspiration from the past, so nothing wrong with that.

there's quite a difference: Apple delivers a complete, functioning package, Windows sells a ($hitty) OS, some applications and crappy peripherals. Their only advantage is that they arrived on the market before, and were cunning enough to steal key ideas and establish themselves into the market to become what they are today: an over-inflated, over-paid, overrated fart.

You're completely missing on the actual business value here: time.
We ran a survey at work over a month's time, checking workflows of people that worked on same roles but with different platforms (say PC vs Mac).
It turned out that people working on Mac had a higher efficiency rate of circa 35%, this due simply to the time saved by a faster and less buggy machine, less need for costly IT support and generic compatibility issues with peripherals.

Our managing board is looking at the figures now, and rumors are that we're gonna all switch to Macs, because it simply saves us a HUGE amount of money.

I have worked in companies using both Macs and Windows PCs, and it really depends on the components build into a PC, also in regards to stability. More so, there are lots of applications that were never ported over to a Mac, unluckily. Broad statements here in regards to the superiourity of one system to another are a bit like agueing Merits of a Porsche Cayenne vs. a Humvee, completly senseless.

I am argueing here from a middle ground, and I argue against Apple geeks like you the same way I onced argued against Windows geeks. It's just that Windows is out by now and Apple affictionaed have the same high time now here blowing their praise (some of if justified) totally out of proportion.

In regards to the security issues and legends:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/08...pard_security/
http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2009/...-snow-leopard/

Viruses are one problem. They are not the end of the line. I never had a Virus problem with a Mac, very true. But then again I only had a Virus problem once in 15 years of using Windows. Not using pron sites too much really helps, btw.

True, I didn't as of yet

I have my Wacom sitting right next to me and it's a great device, no doubt. I am not a fan of touchpads in their current form, however, so I am not convived about this one.

http://www.myfacewhen.net/uploads/95...if-serious.jpg

not worked with apps yet? you do want to be taken serious, yes? maybe you should extend the favor to others? apps are neat little tings, but they are just programs like all others put into a userfriendly GUI. That's all there is to it. Monitoring, btw, is a many ways street. Figure it out yourself.

Call me a cyncic, but in the US of A, in court this really is all that counts. I am not saying there is something wrong in the apporach of Apple, but it's nothing breathtaking either, as the argument goes.

LoL, be careful to not let that argument come back at you in a couple of years, the roots for that are already laid. Btw, this is exactly why I think you lack objectivity in this debate. Apple has been around now for a very long time. Despite that they never really managed to be a serious contender. Why do you think is that? Fanboyism never is a good sparring partner in an arguement.

This is the first argument here to be actually taken serious, but Macs and PCs are not only precision mashines geared for only once purpose in any given company. In fact, many companies "need" Windows because they have to utilize their machines for in parts very different tasks. Esepcially new companies do a lot better with Windows simply because it is a more flexible machine. I am not declarting your argument wrong here, but it is a very narrow view for very specialised taks. And let's not forget the private users, which probably require even more flexebility.


All that said, I am not going to argue against a man on a mission, so you will have to go it alone from here. I can just advise to get a bit more distance towards the topic.

Sorry man, but it still sounds like you never actually worked on a Mac for a prolonged period of time. I have met thousands of professionals who work with both, and not ONE has said "PC is better than Mac", not one.

I'm sorry, but I don't think of myself as an Apple geek, I work continuously with both, but only one aggravates the hell out of me with recurrent issues, drivers, updates, wifi problems, compatibility issues, security issues, viruses, etc..
You didn't, but you're a top end user with PC skills, the problem again is that a machine with a susceptible OS like Windows is given to people with little or no IT understanding.
Symantec and many other anti-virus companies make billions by exploiting this deliberate security gap left by Windows (and I say deliberate because once they understood the problem they should have addressed the issue with their newer OS.. and to add insult to injury Microsoft bought shares of Symantec!).


I was skeptical too, but then I tried it and can't do without now! It's impressive stuff!

Have you actually ever worked to the development of an app? I have, and helped others too. And for a 1000 crappy apps that aren't worth a penny there are 10000 that actually are of some use. Some of the apps we have are revolutionary to say the least, but then again, if you don't try them you don't understand them.
The key of a successful app is not just the program per se, but the fact that it's given a platform with SO much potential because of the way it's built.
Microscopic gyros, HD cameras, retina screen, motion sensors: an iPhone is still the most incredible device on the market of mobile phones.

I rest my case that you don't make use of Apple products, otherwise you would understand what I talk about. And believe me, their potential is immense and the more into it you are, the more you can get out of it.
My network and IT setup at home is a typical example of the efficiency of Apple stuff: I have all my music and movies on a mini server, connected to an apple TV and a stereo, which I can control via iTunes either with an iPad or with an iPhone, playing different music or movies around the house, using devices that are constantly offered new, incredible potential by means of quality apps.
You can't remain indifferent to such incredible quality and flexibility.

I'm very objective man, cos I use both. Again, Microsoft arrived earlier and conquered the market cos it was the first to introduce the revolution, Apple had its ups and downs and it's only in the middle '00s that it became really competitive. You're running by '90s stereotypes I'm afraid (the single button thing you mentioned is an example of it).

The need is based on pre-conceptions. The Intel based Macs now can do anything a PC can do.
And private users don't need more flexibility, only game nerds like us lot do, but if games were developed for more stable machines, imagine how quick game developing would be, and how much better things would work. Think of all the problems the guys here are having in terms of setting, beta issues and solutions etc...
Again, videogaming on home devices is about to die, soon it will be only a case of cloud gaming anyway.

I'm no man on a mission, I am just sharing my experience as someone who worked on PCs and Macs for 15 years. I just can't stand people that slag Macs or Apple just because they've been brainwashed and never actually used one.

That is the problem of the debate. I have never said the PC is "better". I merely have taken a bit away from the "Apple is better" crowds. Your insistence of seeing this an attack on Apple and it's unreflected, very one sided defense and promotion is what lets me think that this debate is mood. This is also reflected by the rest of your comment here.

Believe me, I would not have charged in here if your views were in any way balanced.

And let's just say I am not looking into MP3 connectivity throughout the house as my primary OS purpose, I also could tell you a whole lot about 3D modelling requirements and specialized hard and software as we are at it, but I fear it would be wasted anyways.

No - it's the reality.
If the average Apple owner was pro graphic artist, Apple would be in trouble.
The average PC user uses his machine for same purposes (mail, video, music).
That is, if you don't count in all the enterprise PCs, but we're talking about the privately owned here, right?

Many friends have Macs, they are a bitch to work on when you come from MS, usually get lost within minutes.
Considering the so praised compatibility - W7 does the same thing: It loads and updates all drivers automatically. Unlike apple, where you must by from Apple, you just have to make sure there's W7 sticker on the box.
If you ignore it, your fault.
Nobody expects non Apple HW to work automatically on Macs, right? Same thing.
XP is nowhere close to W7 - xp was somewhat ok, but generally a bitch, especially the x64 version.
Now tell me, have you ever worked on a W7 machine?

Considering benchmarks: I just raced a 2011 iMac with cinebench, that thing was >10% short in all disciplines - And my HW is not that shiny.

Bottom line:
You buy what you want Pears or Apples, but this whole iReligion thing, with arguments which just aren't true, pm off so bad.
Considering design: I think they look friggin ghey, but then again that's just me. De gustibus non est disputandum .


edit: I'm about to read the rest of the posts

2x i930/959, 5770 SLI, 6GB Ram, 1TB HDD for only $7300.
http://www.cheesebuerger.de/images/s...onfus/c025.gif
What a bargain.

What figures are you using? You can have never more liquidity than a Federal Bank you own, they can press as much money as they want(not in reality as it comes with certain sideffects, but anyway)
Oh and btw, they "only" have $81 Billions in cash and other short term assets.
http://investor.apple.com/common/dow...1_10.26.11.pdf

What do you want to compare it with? The gold reserves?

..I'm not sure I understand what you wrote? :confused:

..seriously? So when you were born you already knew how to use a PC? There's a learning curve, but it's not as dramatic as you would think, in the end everything makes much more sense and is way more practical.
I work with Win7 as well (64bit) and although it's times better than Vista, it's still a biatch to run and has the same appalling issues with memory managing, but worse than all, it's still based on an unnecessary punctured OS which can be easily damaged.
And you can buy software for Macs from everywhere, most (if not all) software producers now make it Apple compatible, which is way easier thanks to the use of Intel processors.

Wrong. As mentioned above, apart from a couple of brands that deliberately do not support Apple (Dell above all, cos they do their own hardware), everything else you plug to a Mac will work, no chase for drivers and time wasting.

I do regularly, it's better, but not as good as Lion or Snow Leopard.

give us specs of the 2 machines, otherwise what you said here doesn't mean a thing.

well, considering that you're a person that defines something he doesn't like as "gay", I can't suppose to expect much more of a mature approach to the subject.

they're not selling you a bargain, they're selling you a prime quality machine made with quality components and performing to unmatched levels.

obviously you have quite a confused concept of how monetary systems work :rolleyes:

read above, I don't think you have an understanding of monetary value..
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-14340470