Well, I could say that those gunners weren't killing any civilians. The bombardier was. This kind of arguing leads to nowhere.

How fooking useless an argument can you get, If you have compassion on one person, you must be incompassionate about another!

Is there nothing but fools out there?

I feel the same about the soldiers as the civilians, am I a villain?

The B-17 guns could have all been out of ammo.

The guns on the B-17 usually had a minutes worth of ammunition:
http://www.b17.org/history/specs.asp

Imagine flying all the way to Schweinfurt and back being harrassed by fighters most of the way. There's a very good chance you are going to run out of ammo especially if you lose contact with the formation and you are on your own. The footage does show that this bomber is alone.

50 cal ammo weighs a lot so you can't take that much with you.

5:21 (can't link to 5:21 wtf?)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HDG0eJRn9m4&t=5m21s

Thats the one! Look carefully at 5.32 and onwards and you will see some smoke from the tail gunner. Poor guy, he just sits there, trying to defend his crew and maybe the ammo is out before he can engage the 110. :(

Salute

The Germans did not employ gun cameras as standard equipment on their aircraft, unlike the British and Americans.

These films were shot for the instruction of new German pilots, not as records to allow kills to be confirmed or not.

So obviously the films which best illustrate a successful method to attack B-17's are the ones which didn't end up on the cutting room floor.

concur.

ball gunner as well, the turret takes a lot of hits.

Wasn't this a film of either a captured or DOA bomber used for propaganda? I spent a minute or two trying to find the original and the explanation that went with it without luck, trying to think of the site it first appeared on 5-6 years ago.

After watching it I would guess that the ball turret gunner was killed, if not the tail gunner or waist gunners too, many hits to the fuslage.

There used to be footage of a bomber (I think a B-17) that absolutely gets shredded by a german fighter, and I mean just annihilated. I have not been able to find that footage. I think the footage shows the bomber from the front. Anyone know the vid I'm speaking of?