Page 2 on this thread. 22nd June.

"Now I'm no Physics "Major", but as impressive as some of the effects look, some of them do not look quite right to me. A plane diving at a collosal speed regardless of its weight is going to build up a lot of mass and energy, right? It just seems sometimes that they just crumple like the paper aeroplanes I used to throw at my maths teacher as a kid, when they were'nt looking Maybe I am wrong about this, but I would expect for example them to be impaled into the ground in this scenario, if coming down at speed at a 90 degree angle. Like I say, maybe due to their relatively light weight this would be correct, someone please correct me if this is so."

Hmph. :grin:

I'm sorry to hear this is your personal view on this community, but this complete statement completely disregards some important facts:

Oleg had the chance to play the game before or shortly after it was released in Russia in May. Mid-June US-customers could get a limited number of copies, but sales reached their high not before the last week in June. European customers will get their chance end of July in an English version and End of August the earliest in the localized versions.

So if even more people will give their reviews in August, that is not because these "little soldiers are in agreement" then, but because most of us will take that long to take a personal look at the game and not make a judgment based on second hand information.

Thank you Feuerfalke.

Orville, I don't recall your post. I am just giving my observations after spending some time with the sim. I'm hardly Oleg's little soldier.
He is correct about this aspect though.

we resolved that before in this same thread chivas, RoF is being sold as a full price normal game, and is roughly equal in price to most other flightsims.

have a look at these prices from one of the RoF "officially recommended sales points" in north america (http://www.fspilotshop.com/index.php...a5cd2c1a262cc3)




now that is a very different perspective, and not one that is openly recognised by the hysterical RoF fanboys that still keep pretending everything is perfect with RoF and whom with a cultish zeal keep trying to ignore all problems with it.

you and some other keen flightsimmers might see that as good enough reason to send the RoF devellopers some pocket money, and hope that enough will trickle in to keep them going a little while longer. this is of course presuming the RoF folks will actually use that breathing time to fix the main glaring current problems with it, rather then mainly work on other "for sale" addons or a next product of the same poor quality ( as i postulated could well be the case in starting this thread by indicating they are already working on a ww2 sim). your decision to support this for-sale-beta is a decision you are making on trust and hope, not based on fact or an obligation or garantee that RoF will ever have its main problems fixed, or that if they flop you will even still be able to play the game in its current form.

and RoF doesnt openly state that "pay us to finish this beta, this is not a full game" at the current sales points for their product either, and neither is it clearly labled on the product box when you look at the item ion the shop shelf, or on a website that sells it.

does it mean there are no positives in RoF, yes there are a couple

so should the average flightsimmer support RoF right now by buying it and seeing their $$$ payment as a virtual donation to the RoF team in the hope they will as a priority address its most glaring current problems ? no not in my opinion. one of the main reasons is that when the RoF project flops you will be left with absolutely nothing (your game wont even work in its flawed current form), and the fiasco itself will again give future flightsim ventures a reduced chance to get decent $$ backing for any similar products

there are some solutions to this, but looking at how RoF managed the whole project it is unlikely they can make the mental leap required to address those (so far we have had misleading information during devellopment, bait and switch marketing, taking the worst sales aspects from several game genres to solely focus on revenue income, and not having a core quality product at release time, premature release of an unfinished beta pretending it is a full product, not addressing the main complaints etc). there is no doubt some of the game FM DM and grafix people have talent, but they have been shafted by thier own marketing greaseballs, and the way it stands right now it is going the way of the dodo's (and extinct NZ flightless bird).

they have already released some patches since it was 1e released, going by the gradual minor fixes included, this is going to take a very long time and there is no indication that the real main issues will ever be addressed satisfactorally (easy to join online servers for coop missions, dogfight and campaigns, a firm promise to remove the DRM if the game flops so people wont have wasted their money, free mission building, object making and campaign management tools so the comunity can take the ball and run with it to buid on what basic content there is now, etc..)

and what you are forgetting to mention, there are some further major issues with what should be the best core components of this game to, like takeoff distances for aircraft are 4x to long, placing doubt on their environmental physics modeling, odd damge models with aircraft striking the earth at full speed, static weather patters without terrain masking for AI (magic vision seeing through mountains and clouds) etc...

i think the red barron crowd whom have for a long time been waiting for a new replacement game, they keep hanging on to the glimpses of quality RoF shows and it must be frustrating for them to see the botched product they were landed with right now. for them i hope eventally RoF will be patched to fix it (err for free of course, rather than the pay as you go carrot dangeling they are using now)

for the rest of the flightsim community RoF as a "new product type" (perpetual console type addon sales), its beta status at release time, the fact the product wont play at all if RoF flops, major elements missing in the game, etc.. means that this is the worst possible type of new flightsim. If it succeeds it is bad for us because it sets a new lower standard for all future products, and if it fails it is bad for us to because it will be used as a reason for other investors not to enter the market in the future and make new products. the only glimmer of hope is that RoF could rapidly address the major issues with decent free patches and open up the game to community input, which i seriously doubt will ever happen before they run out of money and have to close their doors, at which point you will be left with nothing, zip, de nada, rien ! personally ifyou are going to do an act of charity i prefer to give my 50$ to a homeless out of work person so he can buy himself some food for a couple of days.

We never resolved anything in earlier posts.
In Canada I paid these amounts when the sims were released, not after they were in the bargain bin.

FSX Deluxe over $60 Canadian
OFF $50
IL-2 well over $50 for most installments ( IL-2, AEP, Pacific, FB, PE-2, IL-2 1946 )
CFS again well over $50 each for CFS1,2,3
EAW can't remember
ROWANs Battle of Britain over $50
BOB WOV over $50
ROF ......$39 Canadian is hardly full price.

Most of these sims were ok, but IMHO only two of them have a decent feel of flight and one of them is ROF.


There's nobody in these forms saying the sim perfect and ignoring the problems. Most everyone flying the sim, know its a WIP, and many are enjoying what content there is, understanding that the issues and content are being worked on. Will they be just adding paid content and not fixing bugs, not likely, as the people building the sim are enthusiasts not bean counters.

The only thing your right about is ROF is not a full game, but everyone knows that.

What you can't seem to grasp is this game is a Work in Progress, released early to generate funds, and the 39 dollar price tag reflects that. As a work in progress you can expect bugs and some missing contant will be added for free. Of course there will be paid content as well, how else do expect them to stay in business. We will likely pay as much for this sim series as we paid for other flight sim series depending on ROF's quality and longevity. This sim could generate a sustainable business or fail based the quality of the work. The existing ROF WIP is very good base to build on, and most simmers realise what it is.

Could the sim fail and you are left with nothing, yes, but the more likely scenario... the DRM would be lifted, and the community would work on the sim.

It would be interesting to see what people would think about DRM and other copy protection if it was their own project and monies on the line.

Copy protection is never a solution, it's merely a deterrent. Especially in niche games like flight sims, where the fan base is usually dedicated to a larger extent than in other games, piracy is not so much of a problem. In games where it is a big problem, the publishers are usually big software houses that can absorb the piracy hit, plus they never manage to keep it under control anyway. The sole purpose of copy protection is to make sure the game won't be freely available during the first weeks of release, because that's where most of the sales occur and the biggest potential for financial damage resides.

Almost everyone has illegaly downloaded games and the reason is simple. There are too many games that don't justify a full price, there's not a demo or people are not sure if they are going to like it enough. The real distinction between a pirate and a customer is the receipt. A person who buys is not a pirate, plain and simple. He may not like the copy protection and used a cracked version of the game, or he may have played a few hours with an illegal copy before deciding to go out and buy it, but anyone with a legally obtained disc and a receipt in hand is a customer, plain and simple.
A friend of mine downloade Empire Total War, he tested it for a week, decided he likes it and then went ahead and bought it. He's not a pirate, he's a customer.

That game is an interesting example for another reason as well. It's a game that requires online verification, much like RoF but a bit more hassle free. It's based on Steam and that platform gives you the option to run your game in offline mode, because as a primarily online platform they know that networks are so multi-layered that there's too many random things that can go wrong and deprive you your enjoyment of the title if they tie it to an online connection at all times.

Guess what happened, the cracked version was out within a week of release, packed with a custom installer and working offline. My friend did buy the game in the end, but a lot of people didn't. And the copy protection was inadequate to deal with it as well. Similar examples are Spore and The Sims 3, supposedly online activated yet freely circulating the internet in illegal copies. Even the addon content for the Sims 3 is available in pirated copies. If EA can't put a stop to that, what makes people think that Neoqb will? The only reason RoF hasn't suffered a similar fate is not because their DRM is good, it's because flight sims are unpopular with the masses. You can be sure that if it grows in popularity everyone and their dog will be able to obtain an illegal copy of the base game, possibly even the add-on planes. So in the long run, the only thing the DRM does is p*ss off the few people that were actually willing to make a legitimate purchase.

Now where is the line drawn between games like these and flight sims? Simple, flight sims have fanatical audiences who realise that in order for them to have something to fly, the developers have to make money. Flight sims are also usually the products of small studios, making the above even more pronounced. Someone might not feel as guilty ripping off a multi billion dollar franchise, but if they are flight sim fans it won't really sit well with them doing the same to a small developer.

Last but not least, in fact it's the most important factor, flight sims are complex enough to not appeal to a massive audience, and hence unpopular for cracking and illegal distribution.

All the above leads me to believe one very simple thing. The vast majority of people who would pirate a flight sim title are not lost sales, but people who would never buy it anyway. They are not lost sales, they were never sales to begin with because they don't care enough to learn a complex game. They will spend two days downloading an illegal copy, go through a couple of missions, uninstall and delete.

Imposing the hassle of such a DRM method on a legitimate customer when your game is hardly as attractive to the pirate audience as the latest first person shooter is unecessary, a simple disc check would suffice and the counter-piracy effect of any method would be the same anyway. It's also simply shooting oneself in the foot and the reason for that is very simple. The people who would pirate it if they could would never buy it anyway, plus you lose a good chunk of potential customers who would make a purchase but are turned off by the DRM implementation.

This is not entirely my own line of reason mind you. It's the model a very succesful and small developer house is using to calculate their business growth and potential. They released some niche games and the only protection was a CD-key during installation. Was it pirated? You bet. Was it pirated more than more popular games? Not by a long shot.

In fact, the company stayed focused on delivering content to the people that they knew would buy their games, instead of wasting time embarking on a wild goose chase against the people who will never buy anything anyway and they did very good as a result. If anyone is interested to read about it, google up Stardock games (the company) and Sins of a Solar Empire (one of their games).

A few quotes from Wikipedia:

Yup, a game with no protection whatsoever is a top seller at retail, because those guys are simply focused on providing quality entertainment for their target audience. On his SimHQ interview, even Oleg Maddox said he would prefer not to have DRM. He's also spot on about the correct way to use an online authentication system. Instead of being online all the time, recurring activations at set time intervals would both reduce piracy a bit and they wouldn't leave you high and dry in the case of network troubles. Here's the page in question from the interview: http://www.simhq.com/_air11/air_341d.html

You know what would have been fun...

the moment RoF announced that they would require constant connection... organise protest. Everyone who would have purchased without requirement puts $50 into escrow account and RoF get a visual on money that they're missing out on. Money gets released back to each flight simmer at 6 month mark if RoF still requires connection.

I read yesterday that they've apparently said they'll patch for offline if the company goes under. First time I've had a vested interest in a flight sim failing :(

Take of distances are only too long if you don't know how to take off in a WW1 style tail dragger that has a skid instead of a tail wheel.

This is pilot error not a game engine problem.

Once folks were shown the differences in take off proceedure that WW1 aircraft need it stopped being an issue of contention.

Next.

Well said Blackdog, I've been saying the same thing for some time now but you've said it much better. Heck, 1946 doesn't have a CD key and though we all know its been pirated the sales on it will by far have exceeded the pirates. I still say and believe that when SOWBOB is released the pirate activity will be low, it will occur but low as opposed to other releases much to what BG has said. Once some punk kid gets waxed a number of times and stalls and crashes he'll give up and go back to the twitch shooters and the other pirates that actually do fly will have to shut their piehole about stealing the sim or get expelled by the community.

Flyingbullseye