You are wrong, LOL. I'll show you with La7's data. When La7 get Vmax=610km/h at low altitude with 1850 HP engine output.

power=thrust*speed

thrust=power/speed=(engine output)*(prop-efficiency)/speed=1850*0.735KW*85%/(610000/3600)=8KN=816kgf

The thrust force is equal to 816kg weight, that is 33% of la7's weight(2.5 tons).

The air drag force is also 816kg force, so la7's speed is steady=610km/h=170m/s.

If La7 dive in a angle of "A" in order to get a portion of gravity for help.

sin(A)=0.33

A=19.3 degree.

So you can turn off your engine/feather your prop and dive in a 20 degree angle, I'll bet that you can sustain 610km/h WITHOUT ENGINE and WITH THE HELP OF GRAVITY.

If you dive in 45 degree, I promise your "dead engine" La7 will be faster and faster untill lost your wing(>730km/h). When you reach 650km/h, you turn on your engine, the thrust is not as big as 816kg, but still around 500kgf, that is, you add "half ton" thrust to your diving La7.

Believe it or not.

In your opinion, la7's propeller will provide zero thrust @650km/h because this is out of "envelope"/Vmax.

Try it in il2 4.11m with your buddy's la7, you shut down engine when speed is above 610km/h and he is still using 110% power, and check if he could pulll away from you or not.

And try to shut down your enigne when you want to escape from the battle field by high speed diving(above Vmax) and when the enemy is chasing you with his 110% WEP. If you dare do that, you'll be caught by him even his aircraft is slower than you@level flight.

Cruising at 3000 meters and dive! :)In order to prevent the poor la7 from losing his wings, my Tempest MKV will carefully control the speed below 740km/h, and I'll show you how long I can stay in the high speed flying status.

[/QUOTE] In your opinion, la7's propeller will provide zero thrust @650km/h because this is out of "envelope"/Vmax.[QUOTE]


no, that is not what I'm saying. it may provide thrust. but it is not "excess" thrust. that is the key here. excess thrust, excess thrust, excess thrust. it is not excess thrust because Crumpp posted a diagram on csp propellar that shows you can not have peak efficiency beyond Vmax. The only way to get beyond vmax and create excess thrust is to dive at the necessary angle. go back and look how he defined excess thrust. it's the difference between the two force vectors. in level flight, the force vector from gravity has no forward direction. at vmax and level flight, there is no more opportunity to create excess thrust from the prop. you have to dive to create excess thrust and acceleration.

MadBlaster, When your la7 diving at 20 degree with constant speed of 610km/h, the air drag force is completely counteracted by g*sin(20), and you turn on engine, so that you add extra thrust from engine, although the engine thrust is smaller than airdrag force, this is the excess thrust.

Both gravity---g*sin(20) and engine thrust are allied, the sum of these two, are counteracting against air drag force, since the sum of them is greater than air drag( at 610km/h), your la7 speed increases, when you reach 700km/h, air drag is quite more than g*sin(20), so a portion of engine thrust(eg 40%) will be used in completely 100% counteracting air drag. The excess thrust is from the left portion of engine thrust(60%). The more efficiency, the more excess thrust you get, understand?


If you dive at 60 degree angle reaching 700km/h, of course, your engine thrust could not 100% conteract the air drag by itself, so you need gravity--g*sin(60) to help you, if propeller efficiency is high, you need less gravity to help you, and more gravity will be used as excess thrust. if you turn off engine(efficiency=0), you need the most gravity to help, thus minimum excess thrust.

Therefore, excess thrust comes from the sum of gravity and engine thrust. Gravity and engine thrust help each other, this is teamwork, if one of them performs better, the other will have more ability to counteract air drag, Understand? The more propeller efficiency, the more sum, the faster dive.

I've got your logic, Crumpp. If you still believe that engine could NOT provide excess thrust in a high speed dive, simply shut down your engine. There is a saying:

You got it!

One small tweak though....

It is not that you cannot have peak efficiency beyond Vmax. You could design such a propeller but there is little point as all performance the airplane cannot sustain is instantaneous. Of course there would be some serious design trade off's to gain such performance as well. A supersonic propeller design would not work very well on a WWII Piston fighter.

http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question...s/q0031b.shtml

The CSP is designed to maintain peak efficiency through the designs sustainable envelope.

I drew these pictures. Hope you understand my opinion about excess thrust.

When speed above Vmax, engine thrust is always smaller than air drag force.

Attachment 9825

Attachment 9824

Speed in IAS.

This is my test in Il2 4.11m, Tempest cruising 250km/h @3000 m altitude, and dive to 700km/h, then I tried to maintain 700km/h by lowing my altitude in a shallow dive, after getting on deck at 700km/h, Tempest was slowed down to Vmax-600 km/h.


In this whole process, there is 70 seconds during which tempest speed is between 650km/h and 700km/h(IAS). And it took 40 seconds to slow down Tempest from 700km/h to 600km/h on the deck. Don't forget this is in low altitude where the air is thick--high density, if you dive at high altitude where air density is much less, you could hold a longer time in high speed.


If a La7 follows me from the very beginning with same energy, I can easily drag him down to his low efficciency zone----650-700 km/h IAS for 70 seconds. During this period, I could steal several hundreds of HP from him for more than 1 minutes, it's a HUGE energy loss for La7.

Attachment 9826

See here, 3-blade NACA16 propeller on P47D, propeller tip speed is 1.0-1.1 Mach while efficiency is still quite high.

http://digital.library.unt.edu/ark:/...adc62616/m1/7/

Attachment 9828

here, effect of compressibility on propeller efficiency.

http://digital.library.unt.edu/ark:/...dc62616/m1/25/

Right...

Correct.

You getting lost in the trees Blackberry and cannot see the forest.

Maybe if you go back to my very first post, it will help you to gain a better understanding. You understand what is going on with the actual forces but do seem to be able to recognize it in the math.

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showpos...3&postcount=98

At Vmax, that initial excess force is composed entirely of a component of weight.

We don't have to break anything down. The detail is already there in our calculations. To determine aceleration, we need the amount of excess force along our vector of motion. It is that excess force that causes the aceleration.

If we start our dive at a velocity below Vmax, then our initial thrust force is the difference between that specific velocity propeller thrust and zero at Vmax. Then we add the additional component of weight that shifts to thrust.

The derivative between that and equilibrium is your average excess force along that vector...

Your argument that your game would benefit from a more "detailed" propeller model such as Blade Element Theory in dive performance is not valid.

You are confusing the mathmatical process of summing the forces with what is actually going on with those forces in a moment in time.

We have already considered that moment in time when we determined our derivative.

yes blackberry. this example is rigged though. if i spawn from 3000 meters and V max with the engine off, I can also create acceleration or de-cceleration simply by changing the angle of the dive and the result is a new terminal velocity/equilibrium. it's the change in the sum of the two vector forces, not simply "the sum of" the two vector forces. the thrust vector is still zero in this case.

But we have been assuming up to now the engine is on, level flight and v max.