This all reminds me of Bush and his stance on sex...,abstanence! :lol:

just don't do it! :)

I had a pretty good run on my "mods for Ubisoft forums post" I figured they would be so pissing themselves with laughter and amazment we could get a bit of a discussion in. :)


sort of like the bank robber that walks into a bank naked and demands all it's money because he says he has a bomb on him.. :D

actually I felt a lot like this guy..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDICY...eature=related


of course all my mod buddies are a lot like this work gang... :)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPcLP...eature=related

Quote:

Well for starters there is a big question mark over whether any EULA is enforceable in law…it breaches standard contract law in that you are not made aware of the conditions of purchase until after you have purchased the software – and typically you will have no re-dress because most computer games retailers will not refund money on a purchased product once it has been opened (to prevent piracy). Meaning that you the purchaser were coerced into agreeing to the EULA.



You ,as a citizen of a country that has agreed to respect and enforce the law, are obliged to proceed by the letter of law.Decision whether some law is right or wrong does not belong to you.There are special bodies in every country that decide.As a citizen that is obliged to follow the law you can sue the law as against human/citizen laws and your rightful bodies will decide accordingly.

Read what he wrote dude, he just said that the EULA will not hold up in a court of law but you tell him he has to obey the law. Look up logic in the dictionary and then use it. Hard to counter anothers point when you don't even understand what they said.

And Stalkervision, STFU!!!! I am a mod user but nuetral as far as the debate goes and you are not helping anyone but the rabid zealots! Your acting like a kid and your arguments are of such low quality they barely qualify for the term. When you get to highschool take some debate classes.

STFUSU you sound as neutral as dirt.... :roll:

Okay.I wager he is a citizen in a common law system country.If he is so sure this aint gonna hold up in court(at least where he lives) then there must be a precedent stating so so other courts could use it adequately.Cause if that`s just some lawyer`s expertise then it means nothing as mine aswell be other four lawyers who say otherwise(as written in earlier post).

Maybe cite some of it(best it be from his own state if he can do it).

Cuz it`s not his personal "expertise" I wager? :)

Isn't this what the anti-mods always resorts to. Telling the otherside to shut up and even closing posts when they don't hear what they like... :roll:

Totally agree! lmao Stalker isn't that bright. It's like trying to argue with Mary's brother on Something About Mary. Wheres mah baseball! derrrrrr
I didn't want to use anything more intelligent than that as he may not comprehend.

You can write any "law" you like and have people sign it. This is very common with leases beween tenent and landloard btw. It is another thing about them being legal whatsoever and they frequently arent. Just because a lease has been signed and certain things in it agreed to by the signer doesn't makes it any more legal.

I'll give you another real good example. Next time you get a credit card offer look at the terms in tiny letters in the back of the form. It says that by agreeing to have the credit card you give up the right to declare bankruptcy and agree to pay all the credit card companies bills if you do. All of this is totally illegal but is still allowed to be included under the law. Just by signing that form doesn't make you libel either....

"Totally agree! lmao Stalker isn't that bright.:" read this passage
sniper. :roll:

I obviously know a lot more about the law then most of you trolls..

I probably could get you fools to agree to be my slave forever and give up all your rights as a US or other countries citizen and If you signed the paper you would actually believe it! :lol:

LOL he really is an idiot! :lol:

Did you read what I wrote whatsoever? :roll:

amazing. you people are even to dumb to understand this whatsoever..! :shock:

You see terms in contracts are frequently written this way to fool the great unwashed such as yourselves into believing you have less rights then you do. Obviously they do it because it works...

read this...


" Some copyright owners use EULAs in an effort to circumvent limitations the applicable copyright law places on their copyrights (such as the limitations in sections 107-122 of the United States Copyright Act), or to expand the scope of control over the work into areas for which copyright protection is denied by law (such as attempting to charge for, regulate or prevent private performances of a work beyond a certain number of performances or beyond a certain period of time). Such EULAs are, in essence, efforts to gain control, by contract, over matters upon which copyright law precludes control.

:roll:


You see you can include anything in a EULA can't you as in any contract btw.

doesn't make it any more binding on you that you signed it either...

What he's trying to point out is that the EULA says that by purchasing the software that your bound by the contract, but a contract is by default null and void if the terms of the contract are not presented up front, which it i not is the case of an EULA. Therefore the EULA will not stand up as it is inherently void.

And Stalker, I'm really not trying to flame you but you are not helping to soothe the paranoia, some of your reasoning and logic is actually feeding it and giving them more ammo.

read this again buddy..


" " Some copyright owners use EULAs in an effort to circumvent limitations the applicable copyright law places on their copyrights (such as the limitations in sections 107-122 of the United States Copyright Act), or to expand the scope of control over the work into areas for which copyright protection is denied by law (such as attempting to charge for, regulate or prevent private performances of a work beyond a certain number of performances or beyond a certain period of time). Such EULAs are, in essence, efforts to gain control, by contract, over matters upon which copyright law precludes control.

Now thats more like it, stalker, cut the antics and make more posts like this. :)

EDIT: You posted the things I quoted while I was typing the previous post (I'm at work), then you responed to it while I was making this post, lol.

the stalker ain't so dumb and nutty as he might appear at first glance... :twisted: :wink:

Eulas like any contract can say pretty much what they want.. :wink:

This seems the case but be careful, remember, the fanatics are that way because of a skew in vision, they are very likely to attach to some of your less high brow statements and ignore/dismiss anything else you say. Then as is the want of zealots of this sort they will apply it to all of the people they view as "on your side". If one side of an argument is going nuts and make accusations and generally making an ass of themselves, the opposing side need only appear calm and reasoned to make clear who is in the right.

:lol: :lol: :lol: Ya, I know and they frequently do.. :)

I guess I may to get all "contractional law"...on your nutty behinds but seeing I am in a period of "Transition " I'll let it slide..
:lol:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PE9Qm...eature=related

When i read stalkervisions replys i just have to qote einstein:

There are two thing without limits, the universe and human stupidity
but then, i´m not shure accounting to the universe.

excuse if i have misquoted, but the meaning is correct.

robtek

so which of the two "unlimited" catagories do you consider yourself in? :lol: :lol:

Let me qive you another quote..

"There was never a dirth of human beings who actually believed by quoting someone far far smarter then themselves it put them in the same league as the person they were quoting"

You can quote that btw. The author is me.. :)


BTW. Einstein was a renown pervert and skirt chaser. Just because he was a math wize doesn't make him an expert on everything including the human condition fool..

Rhighto!Einstein aint got shit on stalkervision :lol:

Stalker, who cares about the EULA? That is a moot point at the moment. You've totally ignored valid concerns that would come into play online. I'll mention them one more time. Taking parts out of the cockpit so only those with the mod can see better or having a mod'd 6 DOF when others don't. I'd like to know your thoughts on that since without a doubt, that would be viewed as cheating by anyone with the slightest bit of common sense.

why don't you just go on a on-line site that allows those mods buddy and really enjoy yourself. Then you will be equal to all the rest again. 8) That's what I would do..

hell then you get to use all different new maps and new aircraft! :)

I have no problem with that. If someone has the mod's and they are on a "mod friendly" server, fine. The problem I have is when people go on servers using those mod's where they aren't wanted. I saw on another forum where Warclouds banned someone because they were using just the sound mod. They rectified that and let him back in, but let everyone know that mod's are not welcome. Someone else posted underneath, "well, he shouldn't have said anything and just used it". That is the part that people are worried about. Those people.

BTW, I have checked out the sound mod and the ai flyables with cockpits. Those are nice, as long as no one starts tweaking FM"s and such. The ones I don't care for are when they start removing, changing and adding parts to things that give an unfair advantage online. I hope you can see the online communities concerns there and if so, that is what needs to be discussed.

sure I can. Of course. I believe the servers will really have to control this though somehow. No use punishing the majority of people who are playing very fair just because of a few rotten apples. The one site I know of really strives to not allow any cheats whatsoever. Sites like this should be encouraged to develop mods that benefit all. Who knows with a lot more encourgment they may even be able to make a NEW uncheatable on=line version of Il-2 just for you guys..

I bet you never thought of that one.. :)

of course you guys have attaked them so much already I don't believe that they would be to keen on that idea! :lol:

but if you actually met them half way they might consider it still.. :wink:

Now this is the kind of sensible conversation we need to be having. I agree with all points here. In fact, I removed the 6DOF mod because it is potentially controversial and I do want to be able to fly on all servers without having an unfair advantage. None of the other mods offer an unfair advantage so far. I think the mod community and the opposing community need to work together to come up with a viable solution that offers at least the following:

1. A "mod friendly" environment for those that want to do pretty much whatever.

2. A way to have completely stock il2 guarentied.

3. And a way for those who want the middle ground, additional flyables and better sounds/texture/maps, but no unfair advantages and definitely no FM/DM changes.

If we can come up with a way to do this and then self police the cheaters I think we'll make something good of all this mess yet.

In the end I admit it takes the community, especially those on servers that know each other, to police itself. I've seen all the mod's available and most do not offer any type of advantage over another player.

On that same note, there are ideas floating around there that suggest things that could offer said advantage. It's nothing drastic or anything to do with FM, DM or weapon modification, just things like I mentioned before about the 190 bar removal. Thats great for offline, but for online, I have to say I'd say no way unless everyone has it, but they won't.

As far as the Frankenplane ideas, although they may be cool ideas in a way, I don't really support that, even though it is only a visual modification.

Overall it seems like the guys that run that site have made it clear that they will not support any FM, DM or weapon modifications whatsoever. That for me makes me feel a little better.

Concerning the EULA, we shouldn't really even worry ourselves about that. It hasn't gotten any of us anywhere and none of us are lawyers or are we representing 1C or UBI. I hear what both sides are saying, valid points, but it is just taking this thread down the drain.

What can we do to 1. keep online play fair and clean?
2. have both sides coexist in peace?

There has to be some middle ground otherwise you can just kiss this sim and community goodbye.

and it only takes 9 pages to reach said conclusion......... :roll:

I wonder how many mods are made and only used by the maker, or shared between the maker and a few of his friends on-line....no doubt that they exist.....That's why I say IL-2 is dead for on-line competion, but fun is still possible on-line, till bob gets here

I agree with absolutely everything you just said. This is what we should be doing. We have too much work to do to find a solution to be at eachothers throats as we have been. We have a lot of talented people in the community, hopefully we have a programmer or two that can come up with some sort of filecheck system.

Sry Stalkervision, u and your buddies may THINK u have valid "arguments"...but that doesnt make it so. U people are so of base its not even amusing.

Now, i could sit here pointing out everything u are wrong in, but alas, i wouldnt say anything that hasnt been said allredy and still u puke your "logic" all over the place, wich tells me your just yet another snot nosed kid who think he knows best without actually HAVING a clue

Online community: selfless whiners?....are u for real?


Now, mosy on over to your halfassed BoB sim and repeat your mantra to someone who actually have an intrested. They actually support mods..and still u are over here lollying about...what is that?

Jesus H Christ on a popsicklestick!! Oleg, 1C, pretty much everyone with a say in the matter have said NO, NO, NO..Oleg himselfe said in no unsertain terms what he thinks about it and the damage it have done to the release of 4.09 and in extention to uppcomming BoB, and still u and your buddies keep it up...what the hell is wrong with u? Did u hit your head at an early age? Traffic acciden?..or are u and your kiddie gang just THAT dence? What?



The 2 sides need to come up with a way to coexist in peace and harmony? :lol:

1 side need a reality check thats for sure.


My appoligizes to the mods but i just cant keep tiptoing arround this matter any longer. :x

No one should have to read this kind of garbage and not be able to post suiteble responses.

I agree wholeheartedly.

Demanding acceptance of derailing the game altoghether is just as naive as thinking the devs don`t mind. :)

Your wasting your breath...its impossible to argue with the skewed logic.

You haven't explained why we are "so off base" whatsoever. You COULD explain why...

You COULD HUH..? Go right ahead buddy. I need a good laugh..... :lol:

don't you just love post lurkers that jump in to insult you, say everything you said was wrong but can't be bothered to explain why because ahhh.."It has been all said before" :roll: and then just disappear. Then a few dill-holes jump in to agree with even less information..

and Underpants you have no clue whatsoever and I truly mean WHATSOEVER to how good BOBWOV is now and I am just as glad because I wouldn't want a complete tool like you over there to ruin it..

keep flying your ahh "realistic" non-torque propeller planes underpants.... :lol:

it´s all a waste of time.
to argue with stalkervision and his lookalikes is of no use.
them people have, in my opinion, not the equipment for a real diskussion, i.e a functional brain.
to fight against stupidity is a lost cause.
of course there will be a reply and to everybody, except the previously called people, it will have no real meaning.
And to seperate the online and offline community;
When i started il2 i played offline, i had no need for a community. ok some people made skins, some missions that was fine, but no real community.
And it was still the dumb, cheating ai i was fighting, in short: offline is mostly for loners and the poor folks without internet.
That changed with online gaming. Intelligent adversaries, no two missions the same, contact and talking to people all over the world with the same interest, thats what i call a community.
Now i´m really writing too much, the people who fear for the community think like me and the other can´t or don´t want to understand.
robtek

Wasting time is talking with you fools... :lol:

I hope you guys do know the way you troll the modders and off line folk they could care less now about listening to you anymore and will just go on doing their own thing and making huge improvments to the game while you keep crying and whining like little girls worried someone might cheat on you in an on-line session of shoot um up doom.... :lol:

May be of interest to those who state so vehmently that a breach of the EULA is against the law...as i pointed out earlier there are legal precendents that consider the EULA to be a cooercive contract and consequently unenforcable...

Thats not really an arguement is it...saying its no use arguing because the other side is just stupid...
Argue your points, defend your corner but don't just fire out insults...

Hello! You wonder why there is a split in the community between onliners and offliners and then go on to call offline play dumb and offline players loners...YOU may prefer the fun of an online furball, but the majority of IL2 players are offliners and insulting them doesn't advance your argument one bit...

Waiting for that precedent,smackie.You can post 10 publications,doesn`t mean anything.A judge can say all he wants as long as it his personal opinion of this law.If that is a fragment of a certain precedent(justification) please post the whole thing.A precedent might indeed be a reason for you to disobey a flawed law but you have to be sure that next 100 such cases will be ended the same way.That is ofcourse only for your country,so others might kiss such a precedent good bye if they live somewhere else.


Oh yeah the favorite way of yours - twisting is to suit you.Retreating from the previous comments on the online vs offline issue as you put it?You dunno where you called that an offlinevsonline problem?Should I quote it to you?

:lol:

Good enough for you?

Or is that any better for you?

Two seperate US court rulings indicating that Software EULA are not legally enforcable binding contracts...I suppose its a little too much to expect an apology ;)
But you could perhaps agree that i'm not a :)

Okay then, as a mod user you did not break the law.Good for you and any others living under those courts` jurisdiction.I`d like to see the whole casus and ratio decidendi but I think we have all the material we need.Link to those maybe?


Oleg has no legal grounds in USA.I`d like to see if this is repeated by any courts from Europe.In law systems other than common law only the Supreme Court has the last saying here so it`s not so easy.

I don`t agree with the modding one bit as it is no respect to developper but I guess that at least in regards to US citizens the law argument is out. :x

So from my POV you`re still breaking the law. The difference is that you`re not living in my part of the world.


In other words, an asshole but not a criminal asshole. :lol:

alright, who can put a copy of the license agreement in this here thread?

@stalkervision:

great fight m8 .... you have free drink for life on me ...

once i thought fighting the trolls its fun too.... but they are like 1 level of "Invaders" repeated over and over and over and ..... boring!!!!

Thanks buddy but also thank Jason. I set them up but he knocked them down and totally finished the job... :lol: :lol: :)

It will take them quite a while to remove the boot prints he put on their behinds.. :lol:

The EULA can be interpreted differently everytime it is dragged thru the legal system. The intention of the developer has a high priority in making the judgement.

The developers intention was to leave some aspects of the sim open for modding and other aspects encripted to protect his development techniques and fair on-line play.

There is no point in arguing with people who have no respect for the developers wishes, or understand from the history of other on-line sims, what effect it had on the on-line community. What I can't understand is if Modding so great why arn't you all modding and flying BOB WOV and the CFS series. In the CFS series the Maps, FM, DM, etc...have been modded for years...it should be perfect by now, but your all still here.

I get a laugh out of people who never fly on-line and never experienced the effects of hacks, tell us not worry, it won't be problem.

ups.... many thanks to Jason too :D

Z

first level of "Invaders" again? ...........boring

and while onliners didn't give a s**t for offliners ( except insults) over the years .... why the hell should we consider them at all?

first level of "Invaders" again? ...........boring

I hear by give Jason the nickname "The Terminator"...

on second thought this one is much better " The Annihilator" 8)


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi.../Annihilus.png

and he does it with such understated style too! :lol:

Well ofcourse, you obviously didn`t have any ideas to get throught that level. :lol:

still addicted to quoting .... :lol:

Carguy ,it isn't healthy anymore :wink:

... and yes , hopefully someone will make mod for you "Invaders" too... :lol:

Fly and Stalker, those kind of immature and snide remarks are exactly what will just push people away from anything you are trying to convey to them. That's what this community doesn't need.

Hay I am willing to be fair to anyone willing to meet me half way and be fair back. Aiways have been, always will be. I believe you left out a few people on your list there sniper didn't you? :? Maturity is a two way street buddy and this street always seems to only go one way.

This situation reminds me a lot of Bush and his constant call for the end of Partisan politics bickering between the democrats and the republicans. His idea of "healing" is for the democrats to give him and the republicans everything they want. Then he will "talk". Just exactly like this situation it appears.

Tell me one thing the non-modders are offering the modders in a compromise situation?

How about this so called " offer" No problem for you whatsoever about this individual and maturary levels or worrying about the community with this poster huh?

"it´s all a waste of time.
to argue with stalkervision and his lookalikes is of no use.
them people have, in my opinion, not the equipment for a real diskussion, i.e a functional brain.
to fight against stupidity is a lost cause.
of course there will be a reply and to everybody, except the previously called people, it will have no real meaning.
And to seperate the online and offline community;
When i started il2 i played offline, i had no need for a community. ok some people made skins, some missions that was fine, but no real community.
And it was still the dumb, cheating ai i was fighting, in short: offline is mostly for loners and the poor folks without internet.
That changed with online gaming. Intelligent adversaries, no two missions the same, contact and talking to people all over the world with the same interest, thats what i call a community.
Now i´m really writing too much, the people who fear for the community think like me and the other can´t or don´t want to understand.
robtek

:roll:

we keep getting silly eula arguments and insults thrown at us right and left STILL which jason proved are total nonsense. I don't hear much talk whatsoever of real compromise from most of the other side that I have seen just more insults.

I call that immature.

all I ever hear is the phony bogus offer of the qusi-meaning word "healing" :roll:

No substance whatsoever just more spin...

until you guys ALL show that you want real compromise and not just bogus spin words like the word "healing" It will stay that way.

Frankly I have had way to many olive branches snapped in half and used to beat me with to care to offer anymore whatsoever.

Now it is all up to you to make some real offers.

Sniper are you even close to being functionally aware on even the most basic and lowest level of human consciousness and awareness next to being in a coma or asleep that calling someone's remarks " immature and snide" is an insult to that person all in it'self buddy? Apparently not...

Btw, that last sentence was a comment about your remarks. It has absolutely no direct reflection on you whatsoever. :)

back to more "compromise offers" by the on'liners I bet... :lol:

We go around and around, and still the hack supporters will not admit that they are killing the online aspect of this sim. The hacked FMs are showing up online. The Warbirds of Prey servers have already banned users for doing so, and they have the tracks to prove it. And still you say there is nothing to worry about.

You claim you want to "improve" the offline aspect of the sim. Great, it does need it. I have tried for six years of constant flying this sim to "get into" offliine and every time I try I walk away in frustration, because no matter how well constructed the campaign is, it still is totally lacking for me. So you lot want to fix it. Very laudable, but, how are you "fixing" it? By adding more flyable aircraft and maps, which is not the fundamental problem with offline. The problem is the AI. You know it and I know it, and so does Oleg.

Funny, I don't see any "AI mod".

No, you are just using the mantra of improvement as an excuse to play with a new toy, that's all there is to it.

You very often castigate the online players for not being concerned about the offline user. But from where I am standing, you don't give a rat's behind about the online player's very valid concerns about the monster that you guys let loose without being able to control it. If online collapsed tomorrow you lot wouldn't care one damn bit. Why should you? After all you have your shiny new toy to play with.

The fact that what you have done has pushed back the release of SOW:BoB, something that would benefit all of us in that it will have the ability to add user made items for offline use, goes right over your heads.

Oh the irony.

You can type paragraph after paragraph in an effort to justify your deed, but it is falling on deaf ears, for we see your work for what it is and we see you for what you are.

There will be no compromise.

There will be no peace.

Compromising and making peace with cheats and liars never works.

ElAurens "Funny, I don't see any "AI mod".


I would love it because the ai has a lot of room for improvment IMO but any and all modes we talk about are considered cheats by You all.. :(

ElAurens..We go around and around, and still the hack supporters will not admit that they are killing the online aspect of this sim. The hacked FMs are showing up online. The Warbirds of Prey servers have already banned users for doing so, and they have the tracks to prove it. And still you say there is nothing to worry about.


That is the server job isn't it? On every other on-line game it is.. :roll:

"ElAurens"]We go around and around, and still the hack supporters will not admit that they are killing the online aspect of this sim. The hacked FMs are showing up online. The Warbirds of Prey servers have already banned users for doing so, and they have the tracks to prove it. And still you say there is nothing to worry about.

>we aren't killing squat.. :roll: so you banned a few players for cheating? Every on-line game does. what makes you so special?<


ElAurens..You claim you want to "improve" the offline aspect of the sim. Great, it does need it. I have tried for six years of constant flying this sim to "get into" offliine and every time I try I walk away in frustration, because no matter how well constructed the campaign is, it still is totally lacking for me. So you lot want to fix it. Very laudable, but, how are you "fixing" it? By adding more flyable aircraft and maps, which is not the fundamental problem with offline. The problem is the AI. You know it and I know it, and so does Oleg.

Funny, I don't see any "AI mod".

> As I said before I would like them but you demanded we don't dp hardy anything to the game and let me remind you people are constantly whining for new aircraft. Apparently you have never seen this. :? Just because YOU don't want them or need them should other people suffer?<

NElAurenso.. you are just using the mantra of improvement as an excuse to play with a new toy, that's all there is to it.

> hardy. We are responding to what the developers never wanted to respond to for the games users<

ElAurens..You very often castigate the online players for not being concerned about the offline user. But from where I am standing, you don't give a rat's behind about the online player's very valid concerns about the monster that you guys let loose without being able to control it. If online collapsed tomorrow you lot wouldn't care one damn bit. Why should you? After all you have your shiny new toy to play with.

?If that was the truth we wouldn't even need to talk to you would we? :) <

ElAurens..The fact that what you have done has pushed back the release of SOW:BoB, something that would benefit all of us in that it will have the ability to add user made items for offline use, goes right over your heads.

>No actually you and the community have done that all by yourself with all your constant whiny requests for NEW AIRCRAFT! :x Oleg said new aircraft take at least three to six months to produce. I figure if mods were availabe back then and in use you would have had SOW almost two years ago! :lol:

ElAurens...Oh the irony.

>Indeed! :lol: :lol:

ElAurens..You can type paragraph after paragraph in an effort to justify your deed, but it is falling on deaf ears, for we see your work for what it is and we see you for what you are.

There will be no compromise.

There will be no peace.

Compromising and making peace with cheats and liars never works.


> This is exactly what I have been saying all along you want no compromise whatsoever and just call all modders liars and cheats. What do you think about your on-line friends now sniper?

If you don't want any compromise. That is fine with me. After all we hold all the cards .... :twisted: :lol: :lol:

The real irony of all these personal attacks agains't us mods who talk here is that we want to compromise with you all. We actually are in support of you. :) That is why we talk to you still. You are driving us further and further away from this support of the on-line community with all these personal attacks though...

its funny how you modders talk about modding but when its not modded correctly and looks suspicious I wounder why some people are offended?

I was in a server, I will not name, they allow for the modds and I seen a very funny plane fly by me its wings were lets say weired looking in that one pointed up to the right the other pointed down to the left and it look like one of those walk like an Egyptian figures, who's to say what kind of quality control goes into the modding; EH?!

So if theres going to be modding it sure better match the FM and esprits de corps of the IL2 FB 1946 OLeg Maddox's version.

maybe it should be viewed like modders vs. non-modders is like smoker vs non-smokers.
in both cases is somebody affected from the doings of the other side, but not vice versa.
robtek

Can we not accept that them that have it have it, them that don't don't.

If used soley for offline or ip to ip what damage is done to the online community (being mainly an online player myself)??

This is an arguement that goes into an ever decreasing circle, with some-one eventually disappearing up their own a*se.

Everyone is entitled to a view, and (in my opinion anyway) as long as they don't get personal or insulting it should stay that way.

and if pigs had wings they could fly

robtek

sorry, couldn´t help it

i really wouldn´t have a problem with modding if it wouldn´t affect online gaming.
The real and implicated influence of modding to online-gaming is desastrous.
If the modders (who founded this problem) find a way to ban the mods from online gaming with rc2, great, go ahead, i´m with you all the way.
But what i see is that the mods are modified that the (not very good) anti-cheat-protection of il2 is bypassed.
If the mods really where only for offline, p2p or open servers this would not have been happened.
Again: it looks like some modders want to destroy the fun for the online community.

This statement says it all for me.

You are indeed a 14 year old playground bully, and nothing more. A wannabe online gangsta who gets his rocks off playing power games with legitimate users.

You better grow up son, because reality is about to go upside yo head bro.

:roll:

quote:
"Name calling, how typical.

I do not own an mp3 player and have no music on my computer. I listen to vinyl LPs on a very high end system, and have the odd CD for my car only. I never rip music because that short changes the artist. A little something for you to think about.

And because I fly online exclusively (except for testing) I have no use for DCG.

In short you know nothing about me. Which is understanable, as you seem to know very little about things in general."

so for you name calling is ok? ... double standards ...as i said: hypocrite !

I hate to tell you this but none of the legal decisions posted earlier PROVE anything regarding the IL-2 EULA. One specifically mentioned nothing more than a warranty disclaimer printed on the outside of the box and the other was a case involving the LACK OF MUTUAL CONSENT. That is not the case with IL-2 since, to install the software, YOU MUST CONSENT TO THE AGREEMENT.

For boxed software, the EULA is not an agreement at time of purchase, it is an agreement at time of installation and you CAN return software if you do not agree to the EULA. Admittedly you will have to fight, bitch, and moan but it can be done. If you buy it with a credit card it's even better b/c you can just dispute the charge through the bank. In all likelihood you even get to keep the software!

IF BOXED SOFTWARE EULAs WERE NOT ENFORCEABLE, THEN THEY WOULD HAVE BEEN REPLACED WITH SOMETHING ELSE BY NOW.

Why do you think that companies pay license fees to use other game engines (such as the Quake engine, UT engine, HL engine, Cry engine, etc.)? If the EULA was not enforceable they would just buy ONE copy of the game and mod/hack it to their hearts desire.

Please do NOT mention the fact that no one is charging for the Il-2 hacks UNLESS you can point out where in the EULA it allows for such.


--Outlaw.

It's really so much more than a legal issue. Hacks do ruin on-line play for your on-line brothers. There is no way around that, not all will reconize the ill effects, some won't care, others get joy out of it, to hurt on-liners. It would have been much better for all, if the code was left alone and those people had waited for bob sounds..... Well it is too late now to change the situation, so we should stop the go arounds and insults, and arguing....we are all brother pilots, and should just talk tactics, aircraft, etc. and hopefully go on as friends here

Did you or did you not make this statment to met..? Noticed you left it out there.. :wink:

"There will be no compromise.

There will be no peace.

Compromising and making peace with cheats and liars never works.
_________________


A bully? :lol: No bud, I just knew it would get you to sweating. :lol: See the only fourteen year old here is you.

I could care one Iota what you guys do to even bother but a lot of my friends do and they might not take so kindly to being insulted.

Reality Upside my head. Get real fool... Like I said we hold all the cards..

You are giving a whole lot of people a real reason to do what you say you don't want them to do by insulting them all the time..

Stalker, easy big feller :lol: .......no one is gaining any ground here, lets just drop it

Exactly Fly_Zo could these guys be any more hypocritcal? I guess calling us all "liars and cheats' is ment as a compliment.. :D

It's already dropped buddy. As you said... :wink:


What's the point right? :)

There are no precedents for an identical legal case (IE legitimate purchaser being taken to court by the publisher for personal use modification of his own software) hence quoting guideline cases...but the weight of opinion is that these EULAs (known as Shrinkwrap agreements in the US) are unenforcable, because they centre on an un-even balance of information in favour of the vendor which is against principles of free commerce (see the UCC - universal commercial code)

Licence fee's are paid because use of a substantial amount of code from one piece of software in another would be in breach of tradtional intellectual property and copywright laws they are nothing to do with EULAs at all.

Sorry gents, I was under the impression this wa a serious forum regarding iL2 and all things related, appears I was wrong and its just another 'slag fest'.

Never mind, I bet you will all be happy and content when you drive others away with incesant ranting and raves.

Bye... :cry:

Well that was easy........................hey Stalker!...give me 5000 dollor'shttp://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f3...Ball/blink.gif

Only if you give me 10,000 dollars. Then I''ll make change for you.. :D

The more I think about this issue the more silly I realise it it. :) Here we have a mod community with all the power in the world to do whatever they want and 99.99% not using it but just asking for just a little respect from a community with no power whatsoever to change thing back the way they want them and that insults them time and time again and calls them cheats and liars. :)

sort of like a man holding a RPG to another man's head and the man with the RPG asking the other man just to try to be nice and not to insult him anymore! Then the man keeps right insulting him! :lol:

Funny way to gain respect don't you think?

Respect is earned, not forced.

Another concept lost on you.

Pointing a gun at a man's head and demanding respect is a sure way to make an enemy.

But enough, I grow weary of these ill founded arguments of your's and Zo's.

Just understand that you have convinced no one in the online community.
And your veiled threats have not gone un-noted.

And all for some cheesy hacked together virtual aircraft, which after a few months will be every bit as boring as the 300 odd aircraft we now have, and you still won't have offline fixed.

The joke is on you in the end.

I wonder when stalkervision will stop calling bunch of hackers a "mod community"

tsk..tsk...Ivan. I thought mods all believe in promoting peace through understanding..

apparently they revert to their true troll nature on other forums.. :lol:

alright so be it "Those damn hackers. The only true mods are Il-2 community driven" :lol:

which will cease to be supported after 4.09 ....

The crux of it that the hackers and their supporters ignored the most important fact, that this all is done against the developper, against his will.
Some of them may do it legally so it doesn`t make a difference if they ever should be gratefful for the value Oleg Maddox presented with his sim.After all these years of continued dev support with countless stuff given for free, guys like stalkervision don`t gave a damn anyway.For them, their needs and entertainment is all there is to it.They do not see the broader meaning - IL2 was something never before created and it ends its life stabbed in the back by its socalled community.The only optimistic thought here is that it took them 5 years so maybe BoB still has a chance.Because if they can breach it quickly after the release, the whole concept of such a unique simulation may be buried alltoghether.
If I was Oleg,I`d price my games from now just as MS does.The stupid kiddies will pay dearly for their toys and the financial compensation for Oleg might just keep him going on with this.


The question is what sense is there in creating whole new theatres of operations through few years if hackers can create all those by themselves?Naive are those who think they will only play with the offline version of BoB.As much as many of us can`t understand it, cheaters(which have open door now by the hackers) will want to modify online countent aswell.

FPS games or sims like SH can deal with it, but flight sims can be damaged with such a tendency.Offliners will still have their offline version to modify but onliners won`t have anything since online content may be hacked aswell.



Fly_zo ran out of arguments long ago, he`s just spectating.Stalkervision`s only trolling as his posts do not fit any logical course of thoughts.The funny thing about it is that even though his crap post are thought to discourage those who do not agree with hackers because "it is inevitable,you can`t win blah blah blah", he keeps answering as if our resistance had any sense.

The fact is that the hackers couldn`t do without those supporting them.The people who have no respect to Oleg MAddox give them all the tools to continue.The motivation for the hackers to crack the BoB code was never as high as now.
The counterbalance to them consists of decent, well informed people that are perfectly able to think logically,realising the facts, connecting them with the past and probably future consequences.

So as much as they keep saying that we don`t mean a thing, they`re wrong.They are lots of uninformed poeple out there who are Oleg`s fans.

We can go on informing them here on these boards on what is happening and what grounds it has.Even as just few posts completely and logically denying arguments of hacker supporters, we`re doing a small but needed service to Oleg Maddox`s creation.
Because as I said before, none of them is able to give erguments we wouldn`t be able to "decompose" in 15seconds.

Jasonbirder`s legal argument is partly valid,as the courts of USA announced EULA as flawed law.Some precedents dealing with similar cases may appear aswell as the law may change in the future.So if you live in say Croatia, such judgements do not concern you.

That`s right, the kiddies will never be able to enjoy the game.Not because there is too few content but because their creativity is lacking.Whatever goods they get, after a week it`s still all the same.It was clear on from Forgotten Battles which was a gigantic sim itself, presenting unlimited gameplay.In time, the kiddies will dround in the sheer number and low quality of the hacks and forget the game, just as a child leaves a toy after playing with it for 10 minutes.


To think they had to destroy "IL2 Sturmovik" community to realise.




I say to the real IL2 community : DON`T GIVE UP, FIGHT`EM WHEN YOU CAN AND DON`T FORGET!

Thank you carguy_ for that.

http://img523.imageshack.us/img523/5...age0150bi3.jpg

Carguy.." say to the real IL2 community : DON`T GIVE UP, FIGHT`EM WHEN YOU CAN AND DON`T FORGET!
_________________


Please ....You guys are all " trolling for trouble" You have zero and I mean zero interest in any compromises whatsoever..
:P

and we have the RPg... :D

Compromise in not an option.

Then you had better learn how to duck very quickly.. :)

actually your right now that I think of it. You have nothing whatsoever to compromise with.. :lol:

stalkervision, you are a poor, poor person!

robtek

That may be but at least I don't whine like a little girl all the time about my favorite toy being broke.. :P :lol:

Finally, an admission of guilt.

You guys broke the toy.

No one else.


And don't you dare threaten me boy. There are very real legal remedies for that.

nope... we just keep on playing with "broken" toy ... while you're crying and bitching like spoiled child for two months now ... get over it ... play or don't play but you have no power to stop me from playing .

but pappa Oleg already making new toy for you ... so wipe your hypocrites tears off ......

why do hack guys have to treat oleg so bad, he has really give alot to us. don't talk here in his house talk at arcade so he don't have to see

Hey All,
I have been enjoying (extreme sarcasm) the debate on this issue from the sideline for the past several weeks. It's hard to go to any forum and not be inundated with threads on this subject. (Four on this site alone).

Why do I bring this up? Well, from the sheer number of posts on the subject and the obvious deep rooted feelings on both sides of the issue this is not a subject that is going away...unfortunately.

So, maybe it's time that we took a few steps back and viewed this from fresh perspectives.

As to if or if not the sound mod was a legal or illegal addition to the game really is a moot point. Whether someone installs the sound mod is also irrelevant.

No the only problem that exists is when someone uses the mod to deliberately change an aspect of his/her aircraft capabilities for online play against unaltered opponents. Then and only then does one become a cheat and that is the crux of the matter. The unfortunate problem with this is we are dealing with human nature. There are those that will cheat just for the sake of doing so, there are some that will cheat because they can, and of course there are a few that will do it just to be malicious and hopefully hurt someone else by doing so.

No matter how hard the community pushes to prevent cheats from entering online play; there will be someone willing to work just as hard to break back in and cheat some more. Again I fall back to Human Nature as the real fight here.

And where does this leave us??

A compromise? Really and truly the only way to fight the problem is to combine efforts to police the servers and expel and deny cheaters when they are caught. Difficult to do I realize, and that is where a compromise is needed as it will take everyone from the modder, the onliner/offliner to the game developer to fight.

While Oleg and his crew have much bigger issues than IL-2 keeping them busy, their part of this fight will be in SOW:BOB and future games.

That my friends leaves us to handle the current and short term issues of fair play and the on going health of the IL-2 community.

So, the short end of this deal is that until all the name calling, finger pointing and schoolyard behavior ends; and a real dialog of communication is opened, then nothing, absolutely nothing will ever change.


WG

OK, so the EULA is not tied to the license issue, HOWEVER, there is a law being broken (if license fees are not paid) and that's the point. Whether or not it's a EULA issue is irrelevant. The hack, to the best of my knowledge, redistributes the ENTIRE executable file and if that's not a "...substantial amount of code..." then I don't know what is. Even if the hack is/were just
a patch file it is still utilizing almost 100% of someone else's code.

[edit]
Obviously this is not a real issue b/c no one is going to go after anyone, BUT, it would be nice if the hackers would stop saying they have the right to do whatever they want to with the code and redistribute it at will.
[end edit

If I'm mistaken about the hack and what it redistributes, then I must acquiesce on this point.

--Outlaw.

"sound mod" ? gimme a break !

lets just look at the behavior and actions of the people that use the hacked files and what this is about, emm because the people japping about it here are not programmers that are trying to improve the game, its spotty faced teens who who found a hack somewhere online and now try and pretend they are kool.

all this is about is a way to cheat online to make up for their otherwise poor performance on legitimate servers.

- do they have oleg's permission to alter the files and code, ...no ! so it is theft of property and illegal.
- will they openly reveal and own up they are using hacked files when they join legitimate online servers, ...no ! so they are liars
- will they selectively reduce the performance of some of the planes that are actually overmodeled in 1946 (like the jak-9 or i-16) and then fly those planes,..... nope, they will only increase the performance of planes they personally like and choose to fly,... so they cheat to get an advantage !
- is this file edit used exclusively to improve the game (new terrain textures, new ground objects, better visibility 190 cockpit,...), without allowing selective increased aircraft performance for frustrated teens who cant fly when they join servers online ? ... nope, whatever way they try and package their crap justifications, its all about cheating online.

so the people that use the hack and try and justify it lie, steal, and cheat.

dont waste your time trying to have a logical common sense argument with them, just ban the little jerks from all the legitimate forums and let them crawl back under the rock they came from where they can "mutually gratify themselves" while they play with their zits and pretend to be cool.

there is a full year to go before BoB is released, and oleg has stated he doesnt have the time or resources to keep fixing whatever these little vandals keep breaking, so say bye bye to il2's popularity online. all this will harm the flightsim community which is already small to start out with.

and to be rude enough to post that crap in this forum says it all. do you think this is what oleg has been doing all his hard work for ?

LoL, exactly.

And u don see where that logic fails, yes?, no?


U want honest players to be NICE to u and your kind because u can make things even worse?...Are u on drugs?


Rerspect for cheaters?...Now i know your delusional.


What i dont understand is why u are still able to post here......u and some of your friends should have been banned a long time ago.

........... :roll: