Oh I am sticking that one on the motivational board :cool:

I have had Steam for a few years and do not particularly like it. I basically have it because other games I have purchased have forced me to use it. I especially do not like the MP matching in games like Empire Total War and Napoleon Total War.

My real fear though is for the future. Steam has a virtual monopoly over PC gaming, in that they control about 70% of all PC game downloads. What they do with their monopoly is the big question, and if history tells us anything, big monopolies in the long run are not good for consumers or small businesses and developers. In fact Steam is currently pursuing a security feature that links your account and games to your current processor, how that will effect you when changing PC's is yet to be determined. The problem is that your gaming is being controlled by a monopoly and in a sense it is the "consolizing" of PC gaming.

I know there are a lot of developers that are concerned about the Steam/Valve monopoly and you can count me among them.

For now my purchase of CoD has been put on hold until I find out more about the MP matching and the feedback from those who try it here. I know by reading the posts here that there are those who fanatically love Steam (I hope you love your loved ones as intensely), but my guess is that someday that love may not be requited.

Regards,

Steam shield is not a hard lock to a cpu it's a choice. Can we please please please stop the disingenuous "facts?"

It's not developer's against Steam it's retailers that forsook PC gaming in the first place.

The last bit is a choice, and a reasonable one. I love my family vastly more than I love any business. I however loathe disingenuous, misinformed, or dishonest statements. That is the main reason I have been so fervent in my defense of Valve these past couple of days.

if you buy a game from steam(like dragon age 2) and find out you dont like it can you sell it to some one?

No, but you can request a refund. I cannot guarantee that said request will be accepted.

http://www.1up.com/news/steam-confli...st-valve-randy

Please see link that counters your assertions about developers related to Steam/Valve. I could post many more.

Regards,

Here you go. On the other hand as consumers we do have a responsibility to keep an eye out. There are two sides to every coin. Valve didn't set out to take a 70% market share of DD they just made it so convenient and user friendly that before anyone else could hop on the bandwagon the train had already left the station. I do believe they need competition, but it will have to be from something that is as overall perceived by the end user to be as useful and fulfilling for gamers that use the service. Valve is not infallible but it is up to the consumers to decide when enough is enough and not Valve's competitor's that thus far have not done it as well (as evidenced by it's user base.)

Is that for the DOWNLOADED version or a hard disc copy. I DON'T play on line. It's not something I enjoy. My interweb connection is okay..... but I certainly won't download a 10GB file. I just wanna pop the disc in and play OFFLINE. What benefit does STEAM have for me?

My biggest concern that I need to verify is that I will be able to burn DVDs. Almost every UBI game I've bought has caused issues with my DVD burning. I use my PC for work and pleasure. Obviously, work takes precedence over pleasure. I had to download the "IL2 no disc EXE." to play IL2. The other games I shelved.

I know that wasn't STEAM, but it is a concern for me. Does STEAM just verify ownership of the disc, or does it examine my PC for ISO/image file burning software? I can't afford two PCs so CoD may have to be a no go.

Steam won't have a bearing on whether or not you can burn the DVD.

Just like any other game out there nowadays it will depend on the DRM system included on the DISC.


http://www.solidshield.com/en/Products

http://www.tagesprotection.com/main.htm

LMAO.....you guys crack me up... I guess if the result showed people hated steam it would have been a accurate indication of the player base.

How many examples has Il-2 sold? Have a guess? Granted, some lost souls used Ubi lobby and some even Xfire, but guess how many unique users HL has?

Vast majority plays single player or max single player + occasionally LAN/private server with a few friends.

They dont need Steam's "awesome multiplayer matchmaking and anti cheat VAC, player ranking" etc etc.

So you don't want the game to have a server browser by default/want Oleg and team to waste time programming one when they could just use Steam instead?

I see no reason to force to use Steam. An option would be nice. Not surprised on Ubisoft not providing an MP lobby, though.

Well hey, remember how well their last attempt went. I'd rather use Steam because I expect it'll be around for a long time. Can you imagine how long Ubi would support such an option? They hit the headlines recently for closing a game's official servers less than a year after release.

It may be possible to install from the DVD (although I can't guarantee it). For sure if it is Steam, you can fetch it from their servers whenever you want.

You can choose to back it up as CD or DVD image files (Steam will create whichever you want for you) and you can burn these ISO or just keep them on another hard drive. You can transfer this to another computer or choose to download the game from the steam servers on any computer.

Benefits of Steam in your case should be:

1. Extremely easily available (from disc, backup discs, backup image files or the Steam servers).
2. There is no install process and no need to use a disc & no-disc cracks.
3. Ability to check that the game is correctly installed & uncorrupted, with any broken files replaced. I.e. no need to uninstall-reinstall.
4. No need to manually download & apply patches (auto patching is an option)
5. If installed through downloading from Steam, it is always the latest patched version.

And, perhaps anticheat protection?

Oleg is protecting nearly 10 years work...i'm 100% behind his decision to use steam...like it or not gaming on the pc has moved on because of piracy.. If you don't like using steam well thats just tough.. the poll would indicate that most people are happy with the idea. stop crying.

Who is crying? Did you read my post?

3rd time on 3 different places I have said that I will not use it if I need to run Steam to start the game, offline or online mode. It always gets "misunderstood". I dont mind validating via Steam or having an option to play multiplayer with it.

Steam runs in the background (I think), but you can simply create a desktop shortcut to the game via Steam to start it, games end up in your Program Files/Valve/Steam/steamapps or something like that, you see.

Hated Steam when it came out but quite like it now.

you've made the same point 3 times but your not crying?...right.

It's not about piracy, we already have Solidshield DRM for that.
I would guess it's about cheap advertising (which is just fine) if the game was sold on Steam, but it's not.
It's not about multiplayer either, since Oleg Maddox said himself that it will be possible to use 3rd party server browsing tools like hypperlobby.

It's also been mentioned by a developer at some point during the last few months that they were working on integrating the multiplayer features "as per the request of the publisher". They just didn't say which publisher, some say this publisher is Ubi, some say it's 1C but in any case Maddox Games is neither of the two: it's a gaming studio that's working under 1C (a publisher) and publishing under Ubi in the west and 1C in the east.

So, the bottom line is that it's quite clear that Steam is not Oleg's decision but the publishers'.

Oh, and they also had to spent time to code this last minute integration of Steam, so arguments that "they went with Steam to save time on making their own server browser" are somewhat moot, especially when the rest of the netcode was something that the game was already capable of.

I don't have anything against people who like Steam or the platform itself but let's get over ourselves here for a bit, it's a publisher decision that's been forced on Oleg's team.

Best way to do things would be to have a Steam version for those who like it, sold through Steam with no additional DRM. The other versions would have the Solidshield DRM but no Steam integration. Everyone is happy, people are not boycotting the game, more sales, profit.

As it is now, both the pro-Steam and the against-Steam people are getting the short end of the stick: the "steamers" are forced to use a second DRM layer and the "non-steamers" have to also contend with two DRM layers and total lack of options in the whole matter.

just to play devils advocate i dont think the server browser issue is a valid argument FOR steam, oleg is in the gaming buisness and should know that having an ingame browser is statusquo...htyperlobby is a private one man volunteer effort as far as i know so what stops oleg from doing the same?
I dont remember the last time i got a game that did not have its own server browser..oleg and company have been working on this game for years and to not put in a server browser is illogical.
You mentioned UBI puling the plug on server's for some game that was only a year old...im sure the game developer is real happy about that... .that is one of the problems with relying on a third party...you have no control over them.
So do i think this will happen with steam? i very much doubt it but my point is still valid (the more moving parts the more togo wrong) If HL can be done on a free and volunteer basis there is no reason oleg can not do the same and this apply's to updates aswell

This is true, but from a developer's point of view, why bother? If you know Steam can do it, and better than you can, what need is there to waste time on it? I bet using Steam has been the plan all along.
Blackdog, I would ask what evidence you have that the decision to use Steam is a *recent* one? Just because we didn't know about it until recently, and indeed just because the work wasn't done until recently doesn't mean the decision wasn't made. After all, Steam integration is not likely to be particularly difficult, Hyperlobby acted as a server browser without any intervention code-wise from Maddox Games at all in the case of Il-2.

I have been doing homework on Steam since this mess started.

Been asking folks I know personally that are involved in I.T. gaming, computer repair, and related businesses.

It's the only way to find clear, calm, and reasoned answers to my questions and concerns, as certainly none of the fan boys on either side that are constantly posting on the three main forums are capable of adult discussion.

So far I am pretty much hearing the same thing from all of them.

1. Never install Steam on a computer that is used for financial information work/storage that is not encrypted. QuickBooks came up a lot in this area.

2. Do not install Steam on any computer that you use to store any important personal information of any kind. Financial records, business transaction records, credit card transaction records, etc... or anything that is of deep personal value to you.

3. As a gaming resource it isn't a bad thing in and of itself. But, like any open port to the greater net, it can be used in a nefarious manner.

4. It is not a huge resouce hog, but it does "phone home" and there is additional network traffic because of it.

5. Never make direct credit card purchases for games on Steam. Buy Steam points at a brick and mortar store and use those online.

6. Be careful and it is not going to bite you.


OK.

That's where I'm at for now.

That is pretty much it in a nutshell, but then you could say that about any piece of software that accesses the internet. :) If you login once, then enable offline mode on a permanent basis and block it in your firewall - if you're that kind of paranoid do remember to do that, I've heard that it can phone home even when it's technically in offline mode if there's still an internet connection, indeed I saw it do so at least in older versions - it cannot possibly compromise your personal information or computer security after that.

That's the cross-section of our forum :grin:

You should never put any of these things on a PC connected to the internet. At least not without a decent firewall.

Any open port can. Closed ports as well, if they are not protected.

From a reasonable friend in the IT-branche I'd expected a number instead of an opinion. Let me give you one: In "standby" that 4 Bit/s down, intermittently > 1 Bit/s up. Assuming you a running a 16k-Modem via phone-line, that's what? >0,1% of your bandwidth?

Why not? Just keep changing your password and don't fall for phishing-mails. Problem solved. Or you want 100% safety? Good luck.

Yeah. The same is true for my toaster.

Ubi tried their own DRM and STEAM didn't like it so they refused to sell UBISOFT games which pretty much screwed them so they had to let STEAM sell them and run them. Evidently STEAM is the microsoft/google of PC gaming sales. They use every tactic to gain and keep a stranglehold on the market. They like google are also known to be a data mining company extroidinaire.

I am not interested in a third party dictateing to control what i choose to have installed on my PC and how i choose to use a product I paid for. I am not new to this.

I still have my commodore 64. My first flight simulator was RedBaron and it was 8 floppy disc's. Thats right i am not a kid. I have been flying flight simulators for nearly 20 years. I find this digital download and 3rd party software with a permanent internet connection an infrignment on my freedoms and rights.

This will eliminate and water down the present IL2 community and replace it with an Arcade group dominated and controlled by a corporation only interested in profit and control.

Bye Oleg and enjoy kids !

By God, you're right! I also heard that you shouldn't trust foreigners. Thanks for the good info!

Do a little more research because you obviously have no clue what went down between Ubi and Steam regarding the DRM.

I'm curious about what your sources think will happen if you run Steam and do any of the above?

Do they believe Steam to be able to somehow intercept your personal data?

Steam is run by a multi-million dollar company not some fly-by-night scamming outfit looking to empty your bank account (unless you purchase so many games as to empty your bank account).

Do they believe that buying games directly through Steam is somehow any less secure that buying through any other Web Portal?

I have paid for games directly through Steam with Paypal, Click-And-Buy and credit/debit cards and have never experienced anything untoward.

I'd be more wary of buying from eBay than Steam.

Oh and the bandwidth thing ... it doesn't consume bandwidth when you need it, ie when you're playing a game. It will not update a game when you are currently playing one.
It does consume bandwidth when it updates your games (automatically or when you choose if you disable automatic updates) and when it updates itself (as long as you're not currently in a game)

Look I don't want to start an argument, I have no vested interest in protecting Steam's reputation but I have been using it for several years on two different PCs and no bad has ever come of it.

I just feel it's reasonable to point out that I have experienced no negatives, only positives.

Oh and most of the "computer repair professionals" and corporate IT admins I have ever met know far less about PCs than any PC gamer / hardware enthusiast worth their salt.

if nothing else this at least shows how many people (registered on this forum) are planning on buying the game...

208 and counting :)

For those who were asking or wanted to know, yes you will have to install Steam, and activate via Steam, even a retail, store-bought, DVD copy of IL2:Cliffs Of Dover, as we've been told specifically by an Ubisoft representative you will need a Steam account in order to play, even off-line.

This would have been more clear earlier, if it wasn't for the fact that the game will use SolidShield(Tages) DRM validation as well, which theoretically meant, if you never intended to play online, you could have just unlocked your game by submitting a code through the SolidShield system. That's neither here nor there now though, what's done is done. It's up to the publishers to decide what sort of DRM measures and multi-player features they want to implement, and it's up to the customers to decide now whether they can live with having the Steam client installed on their system.

I went through this decision-making process myself several years ago when I went out of my way to buy the retail disk version of Red Orchestra to avoid having to use Steam, only to find (due to lack of research) that even the retail disk version required activation through Steam. At that point, despite being annoyed at the lack of choices available, I decided to bite the bullet, install Steam and see what happened.

And what happened? Not much, just spent way too many hours playing a @#%^ing excellent game online, until the community faded and I got too pissed off too often by niggling annoyances that are just part and parcel of playing that kind of game online, and uninstalled it.

Steam stayed installed though, as I began taking advantage of it's special offers on other games that it's sales made affordable to buy, download, play through and discard (or keep installed as simple time-wasters). That was about five years ago now.

I'm not the kind of person who just installs programs willy-nilly, I like to keep a fairly lean-running machine, and there is other stuff I could have installed that I've chosen not to because I haven't been able to keep track of where it is and what it's doing. Steam isn't one of them. For me, it's pro's have outweighed it con's.

Something else I've come to realize is, if I'd never played the original IL-2 series, manually downloading and installing and patching it and flying online through Hyperlobby etc. If I'd never done all that, and saw it for anew today, and it was a Steam download only title, I wouldn't hesitate to buy it.

But, conversely, at least part of my resentment over the involvement of Steam in the new series is a nostalgia thing for the fun I've had over the years running the original IL-2 series the old-fashioned way. It's something I've grown attached to, there's history there, personal and shared, and if something's going to mess with the continuation of that, it had better be bringing with it some real benefits, or be keeping itself the hell out of the way as much as possible.

Also, Steam, with it's convenience and mass-appeal, is at the same time, for me, associated with cheapness and disposability and crass commerciality. And these aren't characteristics I readily associate with something like the IL-2 series. Yes, IL-2 is just a 'product', but it's also, essentially, a labour of love and something that I believe deserves, and has been given, more respect and dedicated attention than what it's going to get when it's inexorably linked up with Steam.

It may not mean much to anyone else, but as I look at it, there is also an aspect to all of this that is like the ending of an era, which is making moving on into different areas harder than it might otherwise be. The original Il-2 series managed to stand, and continues to stand, on it's own, even within the flight-sim genre, and it deserves to.

But the new series that's just beginning, is being born into a different world. And not an easier world for it's kind of thing. And quite frankly, f*#% anyone who abandons it now. It's like the child of the father you fought side by side with for years, through all those battles, all those victories and losses, look after it and give it a chance to grow into something that can make it's own place in a world more hostile towards and dismissive of it's kind's existence than ever before.

In this context, Steam is nothing. At worst, a mere hindrance , an extra button to push or background process running, nothing compared to what getting over it can facilitate and allow to keep growing.

Those of you who are abandoning the new IL-2 series are effectively abandoning the future of combat-flight-simming and leaving it to the wolves. It will only be a self-fulfilling prophesy if all that you feared about it's being compromised, or it's outright demise, comes true.

There's also absolutely no chance for the development of any work-arounds to the 'issues' some people are currently having if so many people bugger off now it has a negative impact on what Oleg and company can afford to do in the future.

Anyway, I've spent so long writing all this I've had time to remember how unimportant the whole subject is in the wider scheme of things, and what a strange form of entertainment this is.

Que sera sera.

How mature of you !

Really, I am glad a young fellow like you is so worldly, i would have never thought about doing that son ! No need to disrespect people with such condesending comments.

Well, I tend to reply to statements in kind. If you start insulting and generalising about large groups of people then I'm not interested in discussing anything with you reasonably, you're clearly just an idiot. To call the Steam user base as a whole arcade users and to use some kind of "watering down the pure blood" analogy is just childish in this day and age.

He he thats funny

Now go show your kid how that chicken nugget was made and lets see if she will eat it again.
:rolleyes:
It's funny how things that are kept out of sight change it's appeal.

like Steam at the last minute before release

I want the ability to go to a server that is of my choosing.
If you notice the key words here My Choice
Not Steams choice

If you like steam GREAT FOR YOU! thats your choice and Im ok with that, but I want the option to choose where and how and with whom along with When I play online and not be dependent on third party software that was forced on me to do so!!!

Give us the option to use the software in a online manner that we choose.

I have payed full price on every IL2 series CD that Oleg and 1C have put out during the last 9 / 10 years
I have bought and given away at least 10 cds of the IL 2 series to friends and family over the years.
Sad to say that I will not do this for COD, due to the forced use of steam on the online community.:(

He's right you know. You're information or your interpretation of what went down there was flawed.

Valve listens to the gamer community, and pays attention to the market. Ubisoft created a draconian always connected DRM that all your game data and saves were attached to. Gamers cried foul and rightfully so. Valve being a developer of games by gamers for gamers saw that this would be bad for everyone, and could potentially ruin PC gaming as a platform, AND alienate PC gamers as a whole. They made a decision to boycott Ubisoft on their platform not for personal gain, but because they felt what Ubisoft was doing was unethical.

In the light of lost profits, being boycotted from the largest market for PC gaming, and the public outcry Ubisoft made the decision to scrap the draconian DRM. It wasn't as you suggested a bullying tactic by Valve, but a protest against Ubisoft's attempt to bully PC gamers. The amount of chaos that their always connected DRM caused in it's short existence was astounding though. People lost the ability to play their game(s) because the lost connection mid-game, all the saves related to it, and in some cases even the right to play the game(s) ever again. Oh and don't forget it did actually spy and track the connections to the internet that the gamer's PC had. If you had a torrent going (even one that like YuPlay that can in no way be attached to piracy) they would revoke your license to play the game, and wouldn't return it even if you provided hard evidence that it was a legal legitimate torrent.

Personally I was glad that a relatively small business stood up to a much larger business and won. It was a David and Goliath moment, and David triumphed.

Uh the Steam platform doesn't tell you what server you have to use. It simply shows what servers are up and running the game you want to play. It will also tell you who is playing on them. If you don't like any of the available servers you can make your own, and through Steam invite who you want to be there, and even lock out people you don't want to be there.

I think you missed the whole point of what I was saying with that me vs kids exchange anyway.

People who purposefully distort the facts to to make it fit their argument deserve no respect. You made it sound like Steam was the big bad guy bullying Ubisoft around at the expense of PC gamers, which was not the case. Go lie elsewhere.

Just had to throw a log onto this fire. ;)

First off, I really love steam...
The DRM works great and their store is awesome.
...that said, there are some real skeletons in the Steam-closet.


First and foremost...
...your steam-account is a free subscription and you do not "buy" the games
on steam, but rent them for a one-time fee. This means that you are
not a customer, but a subscriber which greatly affects your position versus
Steam should you ever run into problems with them. A customer has very
strong rights, but a subscriber does not.

For example, as a subscriber, you have no "rights of first-sale", which means
you can not sell or give your game away. (Actually even throwing away games
that you loathe requires you to contact support.)

If at any time, your subscription should be terminated, you will lose access
to all your steam games and will have little or no real possibility of getting
them back.

For the "privilege" of subscribing to a game, you actually pay a higher price
than for the physical product. Sometimes up towards 50% more...


So, do I use Steam?
Heck, yes... Like I said: - I love Steam!
But I only purchase "dime-a-dozen" games there, games such as TeamFortress2,
Torchlight and Bad Company 2. I the mere thought of purchasing IL2 off steam
wouldn't even begin to speculate about the merest possibility of crossing my mind.


(Note: If it absolutely had to come down to choosing between Steam and
a UBI-Soft DRM, well... I'd choose Steam every time. But only because the
UBI-Soft DRM is something of the most customer-hostile and computer-
invasive root-kit spy-ware created to date.)

Standard EULA verbage for box copies too. All EULAs regardless of physical copy or digital say exactly that same thing. (I understand you like Steam etc, but I am just trying to set records straight).

On the "first-sale-rights" once again read the EULA of any game.

That bit about your account being revoked sucks, but I know of no case where that has happened, and as such I imagine that someone doing that would have to have done some serious shenanigans to get that.

The "higher price" for a digital copy is because Retailer's threatened publisher's with not carrying their products if they allowed any digital distributor to offer the same games at a lower everyday price than the retail version. On the flipside this means more money goes to the people that actual make the games rather than retailers.

I am not trying to be inflammatory, smug, or defensive I am just trying to lay out factual information for those that may not know what Steam is or how EULAs work in general.

I am not some kid either I am a father of 3 and have been playing video games since before I can remember(sometime early '80s is the best I can do). I don't believe that Valve or any company is without fault anymore than I think any person is without fault. I however like to have at hand factual information, and I to pass that information on to those that do not have it. My taste in video games span nearly all genres (excepting platformers I really hate those). I just want these things to be taken into consideration before people call me a defender, or a kiddie, or a smug bastard or whatever they want to throw out there. Name calling achieves nothing.

I have alot of games on steam and have had no problems what so ever:)

Maybe it wasn't a recent decision, true. The implementation was a recent thing, according to a post in an interview or update thread within the last couple of months (conservative estimate to be on the safe side as i'm a bit bored to go digging for the exact quote, it might be as small a time frame as the past 2-3 weeks).
It's also been stated through similar avenues of communication with the community that it was a publisher decision. I still remember that quote well enough even if not 100% verbatim, it clearly said something to the effect of "at the request of the publisher" if not using the exact same words. Both of these snippets of info where from official sources by the way, straight from the horse's mouth so to speak.

What i'm pointing at is that the integration with Steam was an external, forced decision and as such, being against it doesn't necessarily paint one as a person who's disrespectful of Oleg's work. I'm still getting a collector's edition but i still don't have to like this last minute inclusion in the package.

According to information posted by the developers themselves CoD already has DRM and multiplayer capability of its own, they have also said that integrating it was not their own choice, ergo its inclusion in the package is more of an order from above and far from a necessity.

All of this has no bearing whatsoever on whether Steam is a good or bad platform and that's why i keep telling people that i don't hate Steam neither do i want to bash it: i just don't care enough about it to go to all the trouble of praising or discrediting it and i don't want to have to care ever.
So, let's get that out of the way right from the start, i don't have any particular interest to pass judgment on Steam, either positive or negative and i don't care enough to form an opinion. It's one of those things that i haven't had to think about until now and i would prefer it to stay this way.

What the aforementioned information has a bearing on however, is that it shows as clear as day that a purely optional feature is being served as a mandatory one under the disguise of it being necessary, while its necessity has already been refuted by the developers.

So, it is at this juncture that external factors are forcing me to form an opinion on steam, up to this point in time i didn't care and wouldn't ever. Let's just say then that when the introduction is a forced one, it doesn't leave the best of impressions regardless of the product's actual quality and leave it at that.

Up this point everything is factual and even documented by credible sources on this very forum, so please excuse me for adding a bit of hypothesis in my final point: 1C=/=maddox games, because 1C is a publisher just like Ubi is.

If true, this changes everything about the argument of who gets the money and how much. If Ubi and 1C are still the publishers they are still getting a cut on top of what steam will take.

A lot of people here seem to think that maddox games=1C, which i seriously doubt is true. The most possible scenario is that maddox games is one among the many game development studios in Russia and 1C is just their local publisher, just like Ubi is for the western market.

So, while a Steam release might mean more profit for 1C, it doesn't necessarily translate the same for maddox games. It's like saying "selling on Steam makes EA/UBI/other publisher more money".

In fact, the more i think of it, the more it seems like one more group of people skimming fat off of Oleg's milk.
If steam gets a 30% on all kinds of copies (boxed, collectors, download) and UBI (western version) or 1C (Russian version) get another 30% or so, it's clearly obvious that Oleg is better off separating his publishers:
1) Dedicated Steam version, 30% goes to Steam and 70% goes to maddox games. Only Steam DRM.
2) Non-steam version with Solidshield DRM, once again Ubi/1C get 30% and maddox games gets 70%.

Much better than what seems to be the current scenario, whereby the combined cut of Steam and Ubi/1C could be upwards of 50% on every single copy, regardless of version.

Sadly, we don't have more information about this so i'm not going to go ahead and claim it's true. However, it's a reasonable doubt and something i'd really like to know more about.

That's a very well balanced post. Steam is definitely better than Ubi's abomination of a DRM (a Ubimination maybe? :-P ).

On the other hand, i agree about everything you said about the type of games i would buy from such a service. The games that really have the potential to grow on me, i prefer them to be independent from outside factors as much as possible.

I wouldn't mind permanently losing access to a $10 weekend bargain shooter (i would just a little bit, but only out of customer service ethics/principles), but if i was suddenly told that i can no more fly my CoD collector's edition without having done something wrong myself, let's just say i'd be mighty p*ssed off, possibly enough to give the responsible parties bad publicity whenever the chance came up.

The main problem is that a more or less worthless EULA when viewed under the scope of consumer laws is suddenly made enforceable by the publisher via a certain distribution tool: if i buy a boxed edition game and bypass the copy protection so that i don't have to run it with the disc in the drive all the time, nobody can do anything about it because it's a consumer right to have one backup copy of each purchased game. If however i get banned from an online all-in-one vendor/verification/game management platform for whatever reason, even if i'm well within the boundaries of the law regardless of what the EULA says, i lose access to all my games there and by consequence the cash i paid for it. Should i take the case to court i would probably win, but the guys running the distribution platform just know that i can't afford the legal expenses to even start on such a case, so they could simply take my money and leave even if i'm well within the rights consumer law gives me.

In short, i'm generally averse to such platforms because they have the potential to interfere with my gaming as well as force me to accept terms of use that range from controversial to downright illegal.

I'm not saying Steam is out to screw me over, i'm just saying that it could do so very easily if it ever wanted to and giving people i don't know and can't retaliate against that much control on me is something i detest as a matter of principle. Like i've said before, i'm still getting a collector's edition for my own enjoyment and to support the work of team Maddox, but i'd be lying if i said i won't try to disable this feature first chance i get.

Well said.

ditto

Thanks MikkOwl. You've allayed my fears regarding Steam and me need to work on my PC. Appreciate the feed back.

You got solid advice ElAurens, I love point 6. It's just ironic that the same thing can be said about using Firefox, Google Chrome, IE etc and yet I'd bet my bottom dollar we all use those browsers everyday to surf the net, by goods etc without even thinking about it.

The point is, it's not as scary as everyone makes it out to be. Yes be careful but also don't stop yourself from enjoying CoD. Besides if the unthinkable did happen and your credit card got cleaned out, every Bank that offers it's customer's credit cards must adhere to Credit Consumer Laws, and they're geared heavily in the consumers favour, you will be inconvenienced a bit if it did happen but your guaranteed by law to get your money back.

Steam
 

Steam has some advantages and has parts of it that I detest. I truely understand why some will not support it and why others think its fantastic.


I use steam for games like NTW and ETW. I hated the fact when I first began that steam rewrote any changes that were made on my end with the game. Did I want to go online with my newfound changes. No I did not. Any way I put that game on the do not play shelf for a long while. Until i found this

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/index.php

Man did they bring life back into enjoyment of my DVD purchased games. Stop by just to see whats happening. For those who are a little concerned about Steam and the modern abilities of others. I don't even worry about not having a vanila game that I can use online.
I'm more than positive that offliners can find some helpful hints around in this brave new world. Make your own choice and let others do the same. What are you really afraid of when you have to have it your way?

I like steam until patches or mods hit the streets.... then it usually get ugly.

For the most part I agree with you Blackdog, I just think that we're LUCKY that it's Steam and not something more irritating or obtrusive, given that we're dealing with Ubi and 1C, of whom Ubi love DRM and being dicks to their consumers as much as possible if it protects their margins and of whom 1C just love Steam for obvious reasons - they are a small publisher who can't afford gigantic advertising campaigns for their fairly niche titles - CoD probably in the middle of the road or even leaning towards mainstream compared to some of them, and to some extent Steam do this for them in their news section (if Ubi will let them do so straight away) and also it saves developers a bit of time in terms of creating a multiplayer system beyond the actual basic netcode and server system and you get a better deal than with retailers as regards profit.

I don't think that people are getting the way the money issue works here, though, probably because as you say, a lot of people don't seem to understand that 1C is a publisher and Maddox Games is the developer here, they are not the same thing, 1C are co-publishing with Ubi, with Ubi publishing wherever they can be arsed to but supposedly the US, Western Europe and Australia, 1C publishing inside Russia and maybe parts of Eastern Europe and Asia I suspect.
That oft-quoted article about the money division from Steam (quoted as between 60:40 and 70:30) is from the perspective of the PUBLISHER. They still take their cut unless Maddox Games decided to self-publish through Steam only. So it will go 70:30 1C:Steam and then how much Maddox Games gets from that 70% depends on what their contract with 1C is as to the division of profits (if indeed they don't just get a fixed sum on the completion of the game, I hope not, I expect this to sell well). So although the proportion of money is greater from publisher:middleman than with retailers, the amount that Maddox Games gets is still dependent upon their agreement with the publisher as to the division of profits *out* of this greater cut from Steam.

I have been using Steam for many a years and have never had any real problems.-.. leat time my login didn't work must have been back in 07 or 08.... but worked after a minute.

Beside the fact that 1C and Maddox games will have a MUCH larger chunk of my dough with steam and it is a very easy to use and handy software that organize ones game nicely.. there is ONE thing I don't like with it.. it's WAY to easy to press that button.. "Purchase".. ;)

True and I expect an argument between 1c and Ubi over who has the rights to sell cod on steam is why we can't preorder through steam atm

To The Grunch and Luftrofl. I came on here and gave my personal opinion right or wrong and regardless if you agree or not. I did not attack or insult anyone whether I did or did not agree with their opinion and whether i felt it was right or wrong. Both of you attacked me personally and disrespectfully based on the fact you did not like or agree with my opinion. Who are you to try and bully people that come on here. These are not your personal forums. I will be filing a complaint with the administrators of this forum based on your unwarranted insulting and personal attacks.

Feel free to do that. Personally I feel your immediate insulting generalisations about a large group of people were far more offensive than our replies.

Dammit can i change my vote? I got shogun 2 today but, because of steam I cant play it until its official release date on the 15th :rolleyes:

Can't wait to try it, love the Japanese Samurai era.

Really wouldn't it have just been so much better if 1C had decided to just market CoD on Steam, thereby taking advantage of the large pool of potential buyers, but left the requirement to have it for play out of the deal? This is how it is for many other games and it works just fine.

That way those who like Steam could buy the title that way, and us old time, loyal players, would be happy with our current way of doing things and not have to have Steam.

That would have been a win~win for all of us.

I'd have preferred that as well, many other companies do so. However from 1C's point of view Steam is a no-brainer, at least for all their other games they seem to be doing well with it. It's the only way they publish in the west and they don't need to build any relationship to retailers that way, which they never had to start with.

Big open questions for me are still:
- why is Ubi also tying in Steam (technical reasons? requirement from 1C for multiplayer compatibility?)
- why is it not for sale on Steam so far (can't think of anything so I blame Ubi for that, they deserve it either way)
- will it eventually be on sale through Steam by either 1C or Ubi (fingers crossed for 1C...)

The "how can we buy what we want to buy" mystery continues...

And while everyone is so over the moon with steam,lets hope we don't end up with EA games system!
From the destructoid forums,not directly linking 'cos of the swearing ;)

If you ever needed more evidence of how ludicrously some publishers treat PC players, you can stop your search right here. A gamer was recently punished for using "bad language" on BioWare's forums with a ban from Dragon Age II. Yep, if you screw up on a message board, EA can stop you from playing legally purchased, offline games.

The ban was for referring to EA as a "devil", which netted the user a 72-hour suspension. During that period, he was unable to play Dragon Age II because he needed his suspended account in order to activate it. BioWare's only response was to copy and paste the terms and services of its forums, basically in order to say "not our problem."

Electronic Arts, however, has since revoked the ban -- likely due to a lot of outraged gamer backlash -- and has claimed the suspension from the game was a "mistake." Apparently he was only supposed to be suspended from the forum, but got locked out of everything that requires an EA account.

Yet further proof that EA doesn't know what the **** it's doing with its stupid EA account nonsense. Still, nice to know that such clueless chimps can essentially hold your games to ransom.

Aww you poor thing. You gave totally false information as fact and got called out on it. Grow up and admit you have no clue what you're talking about, then use it as a learning experience.

Next time if you want to give your opinion make sure it's an informed one, or keep it to yourself.

Also, if someone who points out you lied and don't know about the subject matter offends you so much you are awfully sensitive.

I bet you still haven't bothered looking up what really happened between Ubi and Steam about the DRM. If you had the right course of action would have been to come correct your statement. But, since twisting the truth to make Steam look bad was the point all along, why would you?

So the rest of us ain't loyal enough because we support steam? or could it simply be that we're less paranoid and actually know how the service works..

What the hell do you think you are doing!?

Bad move indeed. You're only feeding a monster when you use Steam. Very disappointing. Was there really any need to do it? No. People won't want to buy CoD now. Yes, it may be a minority, but those figures soon add up. And how much will those lost sales cost you? How much?

I vote that the whiners get YuPlay DRM instead. That should shut them up.

Tbh if that would be the case, you'd be the loser as Oleg is your only hope of a modern state of the art ww2 flight sim for quite a while. Thankfully it's only a small minority which is against steam.
Steam is no monster btw, its a great solid platform.

zauii, you are reading something into my statement that I am not implying.

Why so defensive about Steam? It's not your country, or your family, it's a game downloading service.

Did you miss where I said that selling CoD on Steam was OK and probably a good thing?

Once again I will lay it out for you as plainly as I can...

Selling Cliffs of Dover on STEAM is a good thing for the sim. Making those of us who purchase it through other means have STEAM on our computers is not a good thing.

As I said, other developers and publishers market on Steam and also through traditional outlets, and they do not require those that buy the product from a source other than Steam to have a Steam account to play. And guess what, that makes eveyone happy.

Why should Cliffs of Dover be any different?

When my group of friends get together to play ArmA II online, some of us have the Steam version and other the non-Steam version. We play the sim, have a very good time and everyone is happy.

What is wrong with that?

Nobody said I wouldn't be buying it. Several regular Il2 players I know will not be buying it. Steam is a corporate monster. So much so that game stores have protested over not buying games which require Steamworks. You're feeding something that will eventually dominate the market. Once that happens, the price you pay to "own" your games is in their hands.

Don't have any issues with Steam or in this case Steamworks (browser for match making etc), thank goodness they're not using Games for Windows Live.

Game stores protested because Steam was going to sell PC games for less than the RRP, while still giving several times as much money to the developers of the games per sale. Said game stores threatened to stop stocking games that use Steam unless Steam was forced to keep selling games at RRP. If Steam had their way we would able to buy games at considerably cheaper prices.

Also, the game stores rake off around 60% of the price you pay in-store for each game.

How come I can always get the same game on Amazon for half as much as on steam then?

I can live with Steam. But I prefer to do without it. Being a cheapskate I was going to wait till this game was about £20. With Steam forced on me, I will wait till its £10. That way when Steam fails me, I wont feel so bad.

mm.. yeh it feels good "supporting" the hard work of the developers with your 10£ doesn't it...

Hmmm , IF forced to use steam I will not be buying at launch

In 3 months time when it is in the bargin bin for 4.99 I will give it a go

This decision is defo going to hurt sales

I thought I wouldn't post here but I have to make a remarque about those commenting about those not buying due to STEAM isn't supportive.

I dare to say those reluctant are the oldtimers, I'm one myself. I have decided not to buy initially because I want to see what happens with SolidShield as DRM and STEAM together.

Furthermore, the more I read about STEAM in official sites and by searching I'm leaning towards a no go whatever the case.

But now to the initial point. Most of the oldtimers like myself has bought every single CD/DVD produced by OM and thus supported him and 1C all the way possible. Most of us, me included, has been simming the better part of the last decade and then some.

We are old enough not to take "sweet talk" by companies like STEAM supplier by the word thus keeping a healthy skeptical approach. There is no such thing as a free lunch after all.

With STEAM you're not buying a licence but a subscription and as such it can be revoked at any time and you can't do anything about it. That together with extensive data-mining is enough for some of us to be apprehensive about this move.

With that said I respect all people liking STEAM but I do feel that for us wanting a DVD STEAM would not be required as per ARMA2 for instance.

regards and sorry for the spelling :)

I've been playing flight sims since the 1980's....i'm quite happy to use steam....speak for yourself.. as your not really qualified to speak for others.

Agreed, been playing since the 80's. Times move on and Steam is not some evil corporation that will sacrifice your first born.

Im sorry but I hope you are being sarcastic, seriouly how could you make a post that states game sales are going to be affected when over 82% of the ppl on this forum have stated that they will buy cod regardless.... go bury your head in the sand some more, but be careful you might find yourself staring at a the earths inner core...

Might I point out that that is at maximum 18% of missing sales. That is a lot of lost money when you are dealing with lots of money.

Do the maths.

No, it's a maximum of 18% of the forum population which is a very minor % of sales and will not in any way reflect the overall demographic.

Rather, that is 82% of the people that voted in a poorly worded poll designed to achieve the outcome that the original poster wanted to get.

Most players of this series do not visit or post on this, or any other forum.

So lets not invent some "facts" to support anyone's side of this.


And I would still like a reasoned response to the Steam requirement for all players, wether they purchased the game on Steam or not, from someone in authority at 1C or Maddox Games. Clearly UBI had nothing to do with this.

Yes as was stated before 18% of a tiny insignificant forum.... compared to a huge very impressive tool (STEAM) with a huge user base.

Its time you took a peak outside the "Banana Forums" and realizes you need to do the maths LOL....how deluded can you get?

Could you give me an example of an err... Unbiased poll then, yet another deluded person that can't see further than the tip of their nose.

I thought old people were wise but this forum has completely reversed that to older means... presumptive, selfish and unreasonable.

So Oleg shouldn't be allowed to open his game up to a larger audience and let his team get the money and praise for 6 years hard work because ~60 people on this forum have a sissy fit.

I can understand why you might not like steam and there are plenty of people out there that refuse to use steam sure but most of those boil down to misconceptions and bad luck that some have experienced using steam...

Hell im not going to be a fool, I have waited 6 years for a game to come out I will not let the fact that it uses a steam interface turn me away at the last second...

1. There is no such thing as an unbiased poll.

2. Read my post for comprehension next time.

Where did I say Oleg should not sell the game on Steam? I did not say that, in fact I have said it would be good for the sim.

What I am asking is why the draconian requirement to have a Steam account to use the software even if you did not buy it from Steam.

Can you understand the difference?

Lots of titles are marketed on Steam and through traditional outlets and they do not require a Steam account for those that do not buy the Steam version. Why should Cliffs of Dover be any different?

It's about choice and freedom in the market place.

Comprehend what exactly?

I do agree with the fact they didn't have to use steamworks but there are benefits to a lot of people, I still fail to see why people are getting fed up over having to install steam on there computer (Unless those reports are true and it was actually made by governments so they could spy on your internet activities... ;) believe me there are plenty of software hidden in windows and other "Trusted" software that would make your jaw hit the floor, if you have the internet you might as well walk around with a huge sign tied to your back listing all your personal details in size 200 font).

Also when i said show me an example of a unbiased poll i was sarcastically saying "1. There is no such thing as an unbiased poll." so "2. Read my post for comprehension next time."

Quoted for truth, well said.

Steam prevents reselling your game which is certainly something Ubi likes to see; they've made sure that is the case for all of their recent PC titles (mostly through their own DRM system). So it's quite possible that this is also a factor for them.

Some official clarification would be welcome, but if it's part of the contracts then I doubt we'll get an answer.

1. The poll is about as unbiased as you can get. Just because it didn't turn out the way you would have liked doesn't mean you can write it off.

2. Wait for Oleg to say why it's being required. For all we know Steam may have offered him money for doing this.

3. You don't seem to know what draconian really means.

To the other guy- PC games have crap for resale value and anyone who objects to digital download on those grounds is pretty dense.

I can understand people having questions and wanting to hear from Oleg but come on the horse is dead. It's been established the program is safe and will not prevent anyone from playing offline. You will not find out the exact reason why it's required until he finally gets around to answering it. Frankly they have done a crap job of keeping everyone up to date about it. Between posting info about Steam/release date and posting a few screenshots/boring video, one would think the choice is clear.

Hello,

First off , thanks for making IL2 . Had much fun with it in the past.
As for this new game:

From what I can gather you are not selling Il2 over the Steam Distribution Platform just yet.
So you are using Steamworks(which apparently needs a the same Steam account as for the Distribution anyways. I question the fair competition prospect of that. See EU/Microsoft browser case)
I have three questions regarding this.

1. As an IL2-Player, what are exactly the benefits for me from this?
Steamworks
Steamworks API

I have never had the desire for any of this in IL2 nor can I see needing any of this in the future.

2. As this appears to be largely optional as the DRM is handled by a seperate system , will I in the future be able to buy this game without Steamworks off a different digital distribution company like GamersGate ?
(My personal choice for buying digital if I would , I hope you can accept that as I can accept you loving Steam :) , not sure if Steamworks is on there)

3. If you include Steamworks , what role does UBI play exactly?
Unless they ship physical copies without this , I can't see why you can't drop them as middleman completly. Which makes me question why they would even do this.

Thanks for any information and I apologize if I got something about Steamworks wrong , even tho I tried to read into it somewhat before.

Steam is great.

Hundreds of games in my library.

Discs are for old people who dont have an internet connection.

This is exactly the kind of stuff that worries me with online distribution platforms. If i have some kind of technical issue, post on their forums or raise a fuss about it, could i be held hostage in a similar manner?

In the case of CoD, does anyone know if the Steam forum account is separate from the game account?


Exactly.

All we are saying is give us a choice and all the rest of you keep saying is "it's not that bad, give it a chance, it's just misconceptions and bad luck, etc etc", which totally sidesteps what the real issue is and as such doesn't constitute a valid answer.

I'll try to explain it once more: i don't think Steam is good or bad, because i don't have an opinion about it. I want to keep it that way and not have to deal with it, because it's been proven already by official sources that it's neither a necessity nor a developer choice.

Want to sell/buy the game on Steam? It's fine by me, just leave me out of it. But guess what...you can't do it yet either! :grin:

I just don't see why some of you are so keen on supporting a situation where nobody gets what they want, when it would be perfectly possible to have options that cater to almost everyone. And yes, almost 20% of lost sales is not a majority but it's not trivial either.
You're right when they say they will buy it...they will evenually, 3 months later when it's going for $20. How is that any good for Oleg's team? :rolleyes:

If anyone can answer this please go ahead. I don't want a lecture on what steam is or how it helps indy developers or how you like it, good for you if you do, i want an answer on this very simple question: isn't it better to sell both through steam and outside of it, so that everyone gets what they want and we don't have people boycotting the game or waiting until the price drops?

It's a very simple question so let's not beat around the bush any longer. If i can't get an equally simple and clear answer, i'll just chalk it up to the fact that there isn't one that both suits the "mandatory steam" viewpoint and is reasonable at the same time. Enough arguing over semantics, let's get to the meat of the matter ;)

I dislike a thief or cheat. I've had too many on-line gamming experiences ruined by them over the years to not want someone to devise a system that fights against it. If this helps to reduce the number of abusers, then I'm all for it.

One of the global advantages will obviously be VAC, while i think the simulation genre is quite spared from cheaters they sure exist even amongst the niche within the niche.

Personally tho I'd prefer Punkbuster, but i've nothing against VAC.. when combined with administration of dedicated servers it works just fine but without it PB wins quite
clearly due to the delayed account bans that Vac issue. Modern Warfare 2 was an obvious demonstration how crippled the system was without human intervention.

I get the impression that oleg was forced down the steam vac route after the il2 hardcoding was cracked and they were too far along with the new engine to generate a new anticheating system

Exactly! I can't understand companies willing to "force you" into a single option.

Also, after inspecting STEAM "agreement license" you can't agree with such abusive conditions:

"Steam does NOT guarantee continuous, error-free, virus-free or secure operation and access to steam, the software, your account and or your subscriptions"


Reading a further more you also find out that it restricts game registration and playability to the buyer's country of residence, availability is not guaranteed and there is no legal obligation to release an update disabling the authentication system in the event that Steam becomes permanently unavailable.

So they basically take your money, and do whatever they want with you. Then they eventually stop supporting your beloved game and leave you out without options.

If that is not abusive (to say the least), then I don't know what this word means.

No respect for the sincere customer.

I am very sad: no CoD for me under those conditions. I want to pay BIG money for a game so that I receive a CD-DVD, register it once and then have the freedom of playing it unrestrictively as long as I want in any country and without depending on a corporation that from the start tells you they don't care about supporting you and hence they only will be source of problems.

:(

EDIT: I am so sad about this, I even forgot to say, hello everybody :) (I usually only read, but now I just had to make a first post)

Welcome to the future.. goodbye and good luck trying to find a new flight simulator that doesn't use 3rd party software that will piss you off, steam to me is certainly the lesser of two evils as a large percentage of games on the pc require steam or games for windows live.

Trust me games for windows live currently make steam look like tranquility, people who are surprised il2 uses steam or some sort of third party software have had there eyes shut and fingers in their ears for the past 5 years at least...

You honestly believe that anyone can promise you perfection? Seriously its obviously there because unforeseen things always can occur and that you should be aware. Exactly the same thing applies for your electricity in your house there is no 100% guarantee neither is there a 100% guarantee that your Internet connection stays online 24/7 and your more than welcome to list all the products that would be rendered completely useless in your house without electricity.

Fascinating how dependent we are huh?

The kind of perfection and stability requirements some people expect are tiresome, the service will be up an running 99% of the time just like anything else.

I will guarantee you that if this discussion was about head tracking software, that the majority of the Steam fan boys would be against the major player in the technology and for (free) choice in the marketplace.

Why is the discussion about Steam any different?

The hypocricy runs deep here.

How can you compare head tracking to the use of steam, no comparison find a better argument if it means so much to you...

P.S. I use track ir, what do you use?

Steam is the lesser evil out of all the tools out there, plain and simple.

With all due respect, but I see you completely missed the point ;)

and may I add that dependence to steam is not at all necessary, but artificially induced by the way CoD is delivered.

Oh how we will all laugh if come the release date steam won't let us activate our copy...

:o

You posted in a wrong thread.
There's a special one for 'goodbyes'.

Funny , didn't Microsoft take away your "freedom" a long time ago then?
Another bunch of false accusations to try and stir up some revolution i recon?

"I can't run IL2S on win95 , they've completely taken my freedom away!" sounds almost as ridiculous as your entire post actually.. just to put it into perspective.